Guild Wars 2

In one of WP’s latest videos he made a point of how Reaper, despite being designed entirely to be about power damage through and through, condition necromancers still take this spec for a single trait: Deathly Chill, and that it limits the room Arenanet has to expand on more specs in the future.

Since Deathly Chill exists, it seems unlikely that we’ll get an elite specialization actually based around condi damage, and it seems odd for one single trait being the necessary alternative for any necro who wants to deal condition damage in a build based on power. This issue is further exacerbated by the fact the greatsword has somehow ended up being a meta condition weapon because of Deathly Chill. If DC didn’t exist, greatsword’s whirl finishers wouldn’t deal damage.

Now obviously I don’t want this kind of change done without compensation. Power reaper HAS to have its damage increased to properly compete with conditions, which it throughly loses the fight in now. Maybe they could replace Deathly Chill with a new powerful trait that interacts with whirl finishers, just without utilizing condi damage. Maybe every whirl finisher gives the necro a stacking damage buff, or causes a type of explosion around them that scales off of crit and power.

What do you guys think would make good changes for Deathly Chill if we were to replace it?

Tbh i think they should maybe give a regen on master trait 3 that has inscrease in ferocity with a added % on each atack to remain in shroud for longer periods

But why does it have to go? Because it’s the major reason for one build to take an entire trait line? That’s something called a “tradeoff”, and it’s a very regular part of healthy balancing. The Necromancer trades off an entire trait line of other options in order to specifically have more damage. When (read: if) another Elite Spec comes out, then Necromancers will have to tradeoff the New Elite Spec for Reaper if they want to maintain the Chill synergies/bonuses. This is totally fine, and should be used more to balance classes, since it is not healthy to be able to have “everything” at all times; if you want the damage, you give up the utility/sustain/etc.

Power doesn’t need more buffs; in the event you haven’t played it recently, then you should know that it really kinda hurts. A lot. The problem with Power Reaper is that it’s tied to Reaper: a melee heavy spec with poor access to active mitigation. It gets kited and trained easily enough, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t do stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HFMJquIOIE
You also seem to be somewhat heavily fixated on the Whirl Finisher aspect of Greatsword, and I honestly don’t understand why. The only reason people care about the Whirl with Deathly Chill is because the Whirl is what actually causes the Chill, and hence the damage. The fact that Gravedigger interacts well with Deathly Chill through synergy should be celebrated, not scorned, because a certain level of ambiguity shows depth of design.

Just as a final note: Condition Necromancers taking the Reaper line for a single trait doesn’t limit ANet’s design paths down the road for the class. A spec fulfilling a role doesn’t mean that the role gets “crossed off the list” and ignored for different designs later. The next Elite could easily include more utility based Condition options, and also be ranged, and offer up a trade against strictly more damage with Reaper.
Plus, the concept of tradeoffs means that we don’t invalidate Reaper and other previous specs because it offers something that can’t be had elsewhere.

While deathly chill is a primary reason for condi builds to take reaper, I don’t think it’s true to say it’s the ONLY reason. The truth is that the effects you get with reaper are more about making chill work really hard for you, not that you get some bleed stacks. That’s OK because Reaper condi doesn’t replace necro condi; there is a loss of build freedom in reaper condi compared to necro condi that makes it a reasonable tradeoff.

I think the limiting factor for the design path isn’t Deathly Chill, it’s the linear approach of the Reaper line; you either focus on chill, because the traits make chilling things a worthwhile activity or you camp Shroud as much as you can. Whatever the next elite, I will have to really give non-shroud builds something to play with.

Deathly Chill, in my opinion, exists because, without it, Necromancer only has scepter auto-attack and an equally low-brow, spammy Epidemic for doing any significant condition damage. I think Arenanet recognized this and decided to add the trait to provide a hybrid power/condi option.

Epidemic is perfectly acceptable on a power build, if you are in a group. Only scepter has any significant condition damage output. Jagged Horrors (minions) were nerfed and Lich is a spectral (power) elite so condition damage and duration are not exactly being called for, anyway. Without Deathly Chill, Necromancers would not have a reason to do anything but auto-attack with scepter.

Deathly Chill greatly increases Necromancer’s build variety by adding a third build for condition damage. (Although, it is not as if auto-attacking and pushing Epidemic are very flexible or robust in the first place. They are kind of gimmicky.) Terror and Dhuumfire are both low-output skills due to long cool downs and limited availability.

“Power doesn’t need more buffs; "

I can’t take anyone who says that seriously.

FrostDraco.8306:

“Power doesn’t need more buffs; "

I can’t take anyone who says that seriously.

Then don’t; I don’t need to explain my case to people with no comprehension of the bigger picture.

Zero Solstice.9754:

FrostDraco.8306:

“Power doesn’t need more buffs; "

I can’t take anyone who says that seriously.

Then don’t; I don’t need to explain my case to people with no comprehension of the bigger picture.

>Doesn’t say what the bigger picture is.

Oh do explain how power necro is ‘just fine’ oh enlightened one. Apparently you have some secret information us mere mortals are not privy to.

Especially when you contradict yourself a few lines below.

“The problem with Power Reaper is that it’s tied to Reaper: a melee heavy spec with poor access to active mitigation. It gets kited and trained easily enough, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t do stuff like this: "

To be fair, Condition Necros also take Reaper because the Shroud is just better. RS4 is vastly better for condition builds than anything on Death Shroud, the Stability is necessary, and Path of Corruption on a 6 second cooldown is excellent.

the entire condi competitiveness hangs by the thread of this trait. remove it and we’re back to ~26k dps with dull rotation. this is about where power is (around 28k). to be a decent dps on power, we would need about 34k dps. a way to do it is for ANet to finally give us % modifier traits and increase RS autoattack dps to be a little better than GS auto (traited). Dagger should also be buffed to make up for only hitting 2 targets. Focus needs a rework as well. it shouldn’t give regen, it should give might and fury and have a better emphasis as hard hitting (make the scythe do a lot of damage).

another way to fix power is to rework lifesteal damage – let it crit, make it still ignore armor, scale with power better etc.

FrostDraco.8306:

Zero Solstice.9754:

FrostDraco.8306:

“Power doesn’t need more buffs; "

I can’t take anyone who says that seriously.

Then don’t; I don’t need to explain my case to people with no comprehension of the bigger picture.

>Doesn’t say what the bigger picture is.

Oh do explain how power necro is ‘just fine’ oh enlightened one. Apparently you have some secret information us mere mortals are not privy to.

Especially when you contradict yourself a few lines below.

“The problem with Power Reaper is that it’s tied to Reaper: a melee heavy spec with poor access to active mitigation. It gets kited and trained easily enough, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t do stuff like this: "

Sure. Sometimes people could use a bit of extra wisdom; an altered perspective.

The bigger picture is how the class and build fit into the entire ecosystem of the game. It plays well in PvP, it plays well in WvW (as it has for a long time), and it plays just fine in PvE, although it’s pretty hard to do Necromancer in PvE wrong no matter the build. You can’t just say that because, say, Power Reaper spike is lower than some other Power builds that it needs to be buffed. This is flawed logic that leads to power creep, for one, and doesn’t take into account other variables.

There’s no contradiction there, just a lack of understanding into what is being said and presented; The concept in question was that due to the lack of active mitigation that Necromancer has, and the fact that you trade the ranged Death Shroud for the melee Reaper Shroud, you think that its necessary to give buffs to Power Reaper. The purpose of the video is to show that the current state of Power Reaper is able to nearly instakill some individuals with just a Death’s Charge, Executioner’s Scythe, or Gravedigger, among the other damage-dealing abilities on the class. You can 8.2k crit a Thief with a 6 second cooldown dash that’s AoE, blinds, and destroys projectiles. Its damage can be absurd when uncontested, but that’s why it is easy to train down or kite around: because everything should have weaknesses. You say that it’s underpowered and needs help, I say that it’s well designed and just fine.

Does it suck losing a fight from time to time because you simply get CC trained into Oblivion? Sure, but if you have a competent teammate and you aren’t poor at playing the game, you can just pop off an easy 5v10 (again, refer to linked video).

I’ve seen this video before. Chances are the theif was wearing zerker gear. And you also forgot you have quickness, which is a night and day difference. It’s not instakill anyone. It’s instakill a squishy. Which a dragon hunter can do in the same amount of time, while blocking damage.

You ALSO forgot to mention that you are running almost full glass. Especially since the base HP of a reaper is about 20.3k, and yours is slightly above that. Meaning that the gear is probably marauder.

If your enemies were running proper gear in wvw you would do way less damage. Using selected clicks to prove a point about a particular scenario does nothing to make a case about the overall health of power reaper.

What about keeping deathly chill as it is until Anet releases a condi spec and buff other reaper and core necromancer traits until a power build is viable? I understand that reaper was somewhat meant as a power spec but necro’s most desired skills are related to condi manipulation and epidemic and condi reaper’s traits synergize so well around applying chills.

Zero Solstice.9754:

FrostDraco.8306:

“Power doesn’t need more buffs; "

I can’t take anyone who says that seriously.

Then don’t; I don’t need to explain my case to people with no comprehension of the bigger picture.

Dude ive watched ur vid many times and i enjoyed it and found it very entertaining

That being said if u go up against a heavvy cc class, mobility, condi, evades ,blocks and so on ALONE a power reaper is dead. Take good warriors teefs druids revs mesmers eles Dh (with bow to kite easy) for ex. I just said power necro agaist any other class almost looses with players of same skill level. If you play in a group like you its “easy” to go wild and dps at will without needing to much stability ans stun break.

ImO power reapers need more LF generation to stay inside shroud if they want too and to get inside it again.

Zero Solstice.9754:

But why does it have to go? Because it’s the major reason for one build to take an entire trait line? That’s something called a “tradeoff”, and it’s a very regular part of healthy balancing. The Necromancer trades off an entire trait line of other options in order to specifically have more damage. When (read: if) another Elite Spec comes out, then Necromancers will have to tradeoff the New Elite Spec for Reaper if they want to maintain the Chill synergies/bonuses. This is totally fine, and should be used more to balance classes, since it is not healthy to be able to have “everything” at all times; if you want the damage, you give up the utility/sustain/etc.

Because it’s counter-synergetic kitten. It defeats point of tinkering with builds when only 1 trait in the entire line defines it, while others are just placeholders. Granted, necros are far from worst offenders in that regard – Reaper has some healthy synergy with many other lines both as power and condi. Still, idea itself is bad.

The problem with necro is not that condi build is overperforming, only that power builds are drastically underperforming. Before deathly chill becoming 3 stacks of bleeing necro didn’t exist in raids. Now at least he can go in there as condi dps.

What they need to do is address the power necro damage numbers and while there address his core spec, especially death shroud.

If Necromancer receives torch, it seems reasonable that it would burn and pair with scepter. However, Deathly Chill would not be available at the same time. I expect a wash between elites for condition damage, at best.

Necro power and condition damage builds would remain in the mid-upper 20k range without some new party-dependant scaling.

The sand theme may turn out to be boon oriented. There is no reason it has to be dps condition or power. With a scepter and OH torch, the rest of the profession might be group defense.

Zero Solstice.9754:

Power doesn’t need more buffs

Actually power necro (reaper) is the worst dps class for pve when compared to other pure dps’ers.
And in pvp the power builds we encounter have very little to do with what reaper offers, they all use axe warhorn and staff, sometimes they forgo all shout skills (sometimes ppl take plague when they know they will get focused all the time).

So yes power reaper does need buffs, just not flat dmg ones. Great sword NEEDS faster auto attacks, with reduced dmg in pvp perhaps , but it needs it since you will never auto attack in pvp with a gs and it is much to slow for pve. Further grave digger needs to be re-designed since in its current state it seams like a skill made for wow or another slower paced mmo, at the moment you will barely ever land it on a non-downstate player (also its trait is shait).

In regards to deathly chill i agree that it could stand to change to better fit a power themed line although this will screw over many condi builds. But it would mean that anet could make a new pure condi based elite spec next time, one focused on sustain through better healing (since reaper is suppose to be based on power dmg and ‘sustain’ through face tanking as evident by skills such as rise, you are all weaklings and stability in shroud, though how effective it is at these things is another subject entirely).

Now as to what deathly chill could be changed to is up for debate, personally i would love to see something like:
-chill deals damage over time and more damage while you are in shroud. Scales based on your ferocity.
So basically revert it back to what it was but make it a power dot and since power builds don’t have access to other dots it should’t be a issue like last time (especially since you can’t ramp the chill dmg up with might with this version). Of course other suggestions might be better this was just the most interesting one i had.

Westwater.1095:

In one of WP’s latest videos he made a point of how Reaper, despite being designed entirely to be about power damage through and through, condition necromancers still take this spec for a single trait: Deathly Chill

That statement is false on several levels.
Reaper can be played both ways by design, and Deathly Chills just happens to be a good PvE trait for condi builds but it’s not the only reason pick Reaper.

foste.3098:

And in pvp the power builds we encounter have very little to do with what reaper offers, they all use axe warhorn and staff, sometimes they forgo all shout skills (sometimes ppl take plague when they know they will get focused all the time).

Invalid argument.

Only because the Reaper spec unlocks greatsword and shouts, doesn’t mean that a full shout gs build should be the single most viable way to play Reaper in PvP.

Agreed with flow. Reaper was not designed as “power spec” but as “mobbing spec”, thus gs cleave, shouts and reaper shroud skills..

As for “role” shroud is generally supposed to support all playstyles – tank, power, condi, control , healing. Well necro doesn’t have real healing just yet but it’s good to have transfusion on short cooldown with RS.

Now as for abysmal dps he is in dire need of a buff. Either low power dps stays (but within limits of reason like let’s say 26-29k dps max), but with strong burst for burn phases, or we should get higher dps at the cost of having to build it up and maintain it as it’s not bursty at all and needs constant maintance.

FrostDraco.8306:

I’ve seen this video before. Chances are the theif was wearing zerker gear. And you also forgot you have quickness, which is a night and day difference. It’s not instakill anyone. It’s instakill a squishy. Which a dragon hunter can do in the same amount of time, while blocking damage.

You ALSO forgot to mention that you are running almost full glass. Especially since the base HP of a reaper is about 20.3k, and yours is slightly above that. Meaning that the gear is probably marauder.

If your enemies were running proper gear in wvw you would do way less damage. Using selected clicks to prove a point about a particular scenario does nothing to make a case about the overall health of power reaper.

You’re right, Quickness can be a night and day difference depending on how you use it, which is why it’s self-applied. If you haven’t already, I highly recommend looking into Superior Sigils of Agility; they make for quite a spicy addition to a Greatsword. There is literally zero Quickness in the entire video that is supplied by a source that isn’t myself. You’re comparing DH burst to Necro burst, which is just apples and oranges. For one the correlation isn’t valid because while DH does it with blocks, they also have 40% less HP base than we do. It’s also not a healthy way to compare things because you leave out other variables and ignore what else can come with the package. Not everything has to do the job the same way in order to get the same job done.

My build is right here: https://youtu.be/yksruX1zGsM?t=24s
I’m not hiding it. It’s something called “stat-balancing”; I appropriate the amount of stats where I believe they are most mathematically optimal. You don’t need a ridiculous amount of Vitality or Toughness at all times, so I swap the rings from Zerk to Valk/Cavs and back when needed or desired. Is it glassier than you might be used to? Sure, but that’s because after a certain point the damage that you trade away for tanky stats becomes a sidegrade, not an upgrade. But you don’t need 27k HP and 3k armor at all times to play Necromancer.
Also just as a tidbit for you, my HP in this video is just under 24k, and Necromancer base HP is 19.6k.

Saying that every single opponent that I fight in my videos wears improper gear is just, frankly, ignorant. You can’t make the assumption that in a 5v5, or a 5v10, that all 5 or all 10 of my opponents are wearing garbage, especially if some of those individuals are “coordinated” guild groups.

Since you want to label “cherrypicking”, I’ll give you some disclosure: Literally 80% of the fights that I had on that patch night made it into that video. I left out an additional 5v10 because it ended with a friendly zerg coming in and cleaning up the remaining 5ish downs we had, and a couple 5v2’s/5v3’s.

Wintermute.5408:

Zero Solstice.9754:

But why does it have to go? Because it’s the major reason for one build to take an entire trait line? That’s something called a “tradeoff”, and it’s a very regular part of healthy balancing. The Necromancer trades off an entire trait line of other options in order to specifically have more damage. When (read: if) another Elite Spec comes out, then Necromancers will have to tradeoff the New Elite Spec for Reaper if they want to maintain the Chill synergies/bonuses. This is totally fine, and should be used more to balance classes, since it is not healthy to be able to have “everything” at all times; if you want the damage, you give up the utility/sustain/etc.

Because it’s counter-synergetic kitten. It defeats point of tinkering with builds when only 1 trait in the entire line defines it, while others are just placeholders. Granted, necros are far from worst offenders in that regard – Reaper has some healthy synergy with many other lines both as power and condi. Still, idea itself is bad.

That’s the entire point of traitlines: Don’t like what build options and pathings this line offers? Pick a different one. Besides, I’ve played other experimental condi builds with Reaper just to keep things interesting and expand horizons. Here’s an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3m_xgOC6w

You don’t need Deathly Chill, it’s just simply the most optimal way of playing the build. Condi Necro has never really had an issue with soft CC and such, but it has generally always needed more damage (ignoring a few choice moments in time), and Reaper provided that.

foste.3098:

Zero Solstice.9754:

Power doesn’t need more buffs

Actually power necro (reaper) is the worst dps class for pve when compared to other pure dps’ers.
And in pvp the power builds we encounter have very little to do with what reaper offers, they all use axe warhorn and staff, sometimes they forgo all shout skills (sometimes ppl take plague when they know they will get focused all the time).

So yes power reaper does need buffs, just not flat dmg ones. Great sword NEEDS faster auto attacks, with reduced dmg in pvp perhaps , but it needs it since you will never auto attack in pvp with a gs and it is much to slow for pve. Further grave digger needs to be re-designed since in its current state it seams like a skill made for wow or another slower paced mmo, at the moment you will barely ever land it on a non-downstate player (also its trait is shait).

Not every build has to be optimal everywhere. Where are the Condi Thieves in PvE? Power Rangers? Condi Mesmers? They’re shelved or nonexistent because something else that exists is simply more optimal and efficient, and that’s fine.

As for your PvP complaints, your argument is that since the build doesn’t use all of the Reaper’s shouts or the Reaper’s Greatsword, that the build is bad and needs buffs? That’s almost like saying that low fat ice cream isn’t real ice cream and needs changes.

Zero Solstice.9754:

Not every build has to be optimal everywhere. Where are the Condi Thieves in PvE?

Surely in my raid group..