What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Hello.

So far I am heavily dissapointed with this trait / mechanic. Why does it even say it counts as 3x shades?

  • The only real benefit is lower cooldown, which HAS TO be comboed with another summon trait to take advantage off.
  • No triple damage or triple ammount of barrier/cleanses (dmg op, but for barriers I wouldnt mind healing 5k per 10s) … I know its for minor traits – but a better uptime is not a GM worthy mechanic changer
  • 3shade + you hits 15+5 poeple…. big shade + you hits 10+5
  • its a bit easier to hit…(IF youre invested in the summon proc) … waow

IDEAS:

  • Id take a small BUT STRONKer shade aka “ventari tablet”. 3x cleanse and 5k barier, small but movable…. for damage it would also be ok if only the summon trait procced 3x corupts
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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

With the Greater shade you can also hit 20 people (10 for the shade and 10 for you) with your f skills. Atleast that how it should work.

Also there is no triple damage/barrieres etc. (unless its bugged, which i think is the case in some cases), f skills can hit a target only once per cast and dont forget the greater shade also has the ammunition system (aka you can place it 3 times without cd), which means that traits that proc on manifest shade can be used more often (cd reduction).

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Ty for 10+10 clarification.

The rest is exactly what is even hgihlighet, the only benefit is faster recharge/ammo and for that you need the manifest trait and for that you need healing power and the cleanse trait, only to produce a B-tier soloq bunker

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

It count as three shade for the minors traits of the traitline. So basically you gain full effect of these traits and can easily maintain this full effect.

This is the real benefit : 225 concentration, 225 expertise and 15% reduced damage as long as you have your shade summoned.

If you don’t have the trait, unless you “burst” summon you won’t have the full benefit and if you “burst” summon you won’t be able to have those benefit on the long run.

This trait is meant for player that want to maintain their maximum efficiency while demonic lore is meant for small burts and feed for corruption is meant for feeding on your enemies.

NB.: this is kind of a joke but, this trait give litterally some stability to the scourge stats.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

(edited by Dadnir.5038)

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

People keep saying that the big shade is necessary, and I just don’t see it. I get much more value out of just using the smaller shades when I need them, and the increased flexibility is just amazing. Dropping a Shade on a downed body off point is hilariously fun because you can now basically ignore them as you fight. If you do that with the Greater shades, you lose so much pressure it’s not funny.

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

People keep saying that the big shade is necessary, and I just don’t see it. I get much more value out of just using the smaller shades when I need them, and the increased flexibility is just amazing. Dropping a Shade on a downed body off point is hilariously fun because you can now basically ignore them as you fight. If you do that with the Greater shades, you lose so much pressure it’s not funny.

agree with you…

i also aint gonna give up a trait that gives MORE burning and a crazy 33% dmg increase on your main condi ability lol

also 3 shades is just waaaaay more flexible….

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

Gig Shade may be a raid trait

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Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

Gig Shade may be a raid trait

Yes, if the support part is good enough I see it as replacing 1 druid. You can prevent some of the damage and the 1 druid should have easy job in keeping 10 players healthy. Or maybe even take an ele healer. But all this depends if the whole barrier mechanic get the few small changes people are asking and get polished.
All the negative points about the barrier are valid.

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Posted by: Brujeria.7536

Brujeria.7536

I dont know about the big shade, it’s basicly just a quality of life thing… I mean multiple targets are only an issue in WvW. In raid you have 10 people, so 1 normal shade and yourself will be enough for the f2 barrier, the summon barrier will be of better use.

But you know, having a grandmaster only to make a master trait better is really a bit wasted.

What if they make the big shade share the half of your minor traits with your allies? That would give your raid 7,5% condi duration, 7,5% boon duration and 7,5% reduced damage. You would have to choose between Group Support or Personal Damage within the Grandmaster tier.

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Posted by: Tongku.5326

Tongku.5326

Hello.

So far I am heavily dissapointed with this trait / mechanic. Why does it even say it counts as 3x shades?

  • The only real benefit is lower cooldown, which HAS TO be comboed with another summon trait to take advantage off.
  • No triple damage or triple ammount of barrier/cleanses (dmg op, but for barriers I wouldnt mind healing 5k per 10s) … I know its for minor traits – but a better uptime is not a GM worthy mechanic changer
  • 3shade + you hits 15+5 poeple…. big shade + you hits 10+5
  • its a bit easier to hit…(IF youre invested in the summon proc) … waow

IDEAS:

  • Id take a small BUT STRONKer shade aka “ventari tablet”. 3x cleanse and 5k barier, small but movable…. for damage it would also be ok if only the summon trait procced 3x corupts

Hi, I tried out several builds running 3 small and 1 big shade respectively. So this is my take on it that will hopefully answer that question.

Casting and specifically even moreso re-casting 3 shades is clunky in fast paced high mobility combat combat. This is where 1 shade comes in. But there is a huge downside to using it on condi builds. It takes out a huge chunk of DPS because now your torments no longer burn.

I found the single big shade absolutely ideal suited to running heal / support / power based builds. It actually lets you do bigger heals / barriers if you are healing power based, as well as more damage due to not having to take time to re-cast the small shades if you are power based.

It does suck for condi though, as the DPS loss is too much and puts it well below what you end up doing with small shades traited for burns on torment, thus not having the big shade.

I would vastly prefer to run the big shade because I think the 3 shades is too clunky, but I prefer condi DPS due to all the corrupts corrupting boons into torment + cripple, and with burns on torment the DPS loss from traiting big shade is self explanatory.

I think that is actually working as intended balance wise, make condi powerful but difficult to apply cause of shade recasts, while heals / barriers etc. easier to apply, but not sure, would need actual a-net response to confirm.

Hope that helps

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Gig Shade may be a raid trait

No chance of that. Demonic Lore is so much better in raid scenarios.

Scourge support is largely meaningless in raids, the only important bit being the F2. It’s unlikely people will be so spread out that you can’t cover everyone with yourself+1 shade.

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Posted by: Oslaf Beinir.5842

Oslaf Beinir.5842

big shade is not big and stronk, it is big and weak.
if u dont take Demonic Lore then surely u would take the one where u get the boons u corrupt for yourself

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

From my experimentation, the primary advantages seem to be sustainability and mobility. It’s all but guaranteed that whenever you need to move or refresh the shade, you’ll be able to do so, so you can ensure that you always have the big shade exactly where you need it to be, when you need it to be there, at maximum strength.

The larger number of potential targets, and the fact that you get a similar area overall to clumping three regular shades together, are an added bonus.

The tradeoff is that you don’t get the benefit of a different grandmaster (obviously) and that you lose the ability to have multiple zones of influence by placing multiple shades.

In your standard point fight PvP, the big shade is probably not that useful. You pretty much want one shade to be on the point you’re fighting on, while the others can be spread out in other useful places, and that will generally work. In PvE scenarios where you’re often constantly moving (pushing forward, generally), though, I can see the big shade being more useful than little shades that you keep leaving behind. The Dragon’s Stand meta would probably be one example.

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Posted by: manveruppd.7601

manveruppd.7601

The passive benefits of having all 3 shades up are huge, especially the damage reduction, but they take ages to summon. It’s literally faster to spike the enemy down than to summon 3 shades. The big shade in theory removes the clunkiness of having to summon 3 to take full benefit of your minor traits, but the other 2 GM traits arejust so much better.

A bad necromancer always blames the corpse.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Personnally, I’d say that this trait more the area of solo open world PvE where it will allow you to somehow relax.

I know thet it doesn’t feel right but the strenght of the trait lie in the stability of the bonus provided when you have up to 3 shade not in the number of target you can support thanks to this trait.

The lack of flexibility make it hardly usefull in PvP were you’d rather have access to the 3 small shade and the 2 other traits. (Beside you don’t “need” to be able to hit or support 10 targets in this game mode).

The 10+10 target hit make it easy to tag mobs in events, it’s a given.

The semi-passive bonus given help for a more relaxed gameplay that suit open world PvE.

Otherwise, I feel that this trait suit power/tanky builds more than it suit condi builds.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Tobias.8632

Tobias.8632

To allow one scourge to support a raid group of 10 people

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

To allow one scourge to support a raid group of 10 people

you can do that without the trait also….

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

To allow one scourge to support a raid group of 10 people

you can do that without the trait also….

Yeah 1 common shade is enough to “support” 10 players in pve raids. It would be a waste to take this trait just because 10 players are affected around it.

In WvW raid, the fact that it affect 10 player might be a good point but it would be more effective to not take the trait and spread the smallest shades.

As for PvP… well that’s a 5v5 gamemode most of the time, their is no value in the fact that it can affect 10 friendly targets and 10 foes.

The value of the trait definitely lie in the fact that it allow you to benefit from the full effect of the minors traits with a single shade and not the fact that you affect 10 players/monsters with it.

I think it’s worth it even if it somehow limit you.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

To allow one scourge to support a raid group of 10 people

you can do that without the trait also….

Yeah 1 common shade is enough to “support” 10 players in pve raids. It would be a waste to take this trait just because 10 players are affected around it.

In WvW raid, the fact that it affect 10 player might be a good point but it would be more effective to not take the trait and spread the smallest shades.

As for PvP… well that’s a 5v5 gamemode most of the time, their is no value in the fact that it can affect 10 friendly targets and 10 foes.

The value of the trait definitely lie in the fact that it allow you to benefit from the full effect of the minors traits with a single shade and not the fact that you affect 10 players/monsters with it.

I think it’s worth it even if it somehow limit you.

still does not worth it for the loss of the HUGE dmg increase you get from the other trait….

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Posted by: geekilo.8512

geekilo.8512

In my experience, i take the big shade so i can maintain 15% conditions and boons duration + 15% damage reduction. The 3 small shades are just too clunky, very difficult to maintain your passive. With the big shade, it’s so huge, it covers the whole node then you can focus on other things (try to survive cause you’re being focus – #necroprob2k17) instead of trying to constantly summon them. Yes, it’s a damage lost without demonic lord but you pump out so much condition anyway. Demonic lord is just a little bit overkill for me.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

still does not worth it for the loss of the HUGE dmg increase you get from the other trait….

It’s worthy in the sense that it promote a different gameplay that focus less on condition damage and more on direct damage. The trait make you a bit tankier on long fight, lengthen the boons you produce as well as the condition you inflict. Conditions are not restrict to conditions damage.

On a tanky minion build for exemple, I would favor this trait over the two other traits. this trait synergize the most with death magic in my opinion. You want long poison stack, and boost the efficacity of the poor protection you gave to your minion when you leave the desert shroud. If you add your minions, all the added toughness, the 10% damage reduction on poisoned foe, the 15% damage reduction from the shade and your own armor, you can guess how passively resilient you become.

However, even this resilient, in a high hard CC environment, this is not really effective, that’s why it seem directed at open world PvE where it will undeniably make the lazyest of us very resilient while still doing ok damages.

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

still does not worth it for the loss of the HUGE dmg increase you get from the other trait….

The funny thing is, it is entirely possible that you are wrong here.
If scourge has a raidspec, it might actually use the big shade, not Demonic Lore.
This trait means you only need one scourge for timed barrier casts, it means you have easy access to 100% boon duration for might, and in an organized group can therefore replace one of the PS warriors while also adding raid wide survivability.

This is not useful for groups that have content on farm, but groups that do not can certainly use this quite well. Imagine at Slothasar, you can easily help the group with might, while adding raid-wide barrier, allowing everyone a significant buffer to effective health to allow an overall safer run. The same scourge also contributes epidemic and CPC for the worms, not to mention possibly even transfusion (which, as I may remind you, is definitely better on scourge than on reaper)

Low amounts of Barrier are probably not supergood against PvP foes, but in a regular PvE fight, they can routinely make a difference, especially if conditions are on the table. Which the scourge also mass-cleanses at a ridiculous pace and no cost to the scourge – it’s a side effect of the main rotation! And the big shade makes this raid wide.

Don’t underestimate this trait. Its utility is extreme while learning content.

But then, if scourge remains as is, and doesn’t get a significant nerf, I’d probably prefer bringing a scourge over a druid to 99/100 CM, especially when pugging, since it brings much higher personal damage, and a huge safety net for the group.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

But, you can add raid-wide barrier without the big shade. You only need 1 shade up to cover everyone, regular or greater.

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

But, you can add raid-wide barrier without the big shade. You only need 1 shade up to cover everyone, regular or greater.

Sand Cascade has a limit of five by default. The trait buffs this to ten.

I may be suffering from Alzheimer or something, but I definitely remember checking for that, and seeing a limit of five for the untraited one.

(It also boosts the range, which is also important for a progress group. Remember, base radius is only 180, the big shade boosts it to 300. A group that does not have a boss on farm is likely not as stacked as you’d want them to be, so the radius increase would also help a ton, because the very people that tend to be in places they shouldn’t be are the people needing barrier the most)

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

But, you can add raid-wide barrier without the big shade. You only need 1 shade up to cover everyone, regular or greater.

Sand Cascade has a limit of five by default. The trait buffs this to ten.

I may be suffering from Alzheimer or something, but I definitely remember checking for that, and seeing a limit of five for the untraited one.

(It also boosts the range, which is also important for a progress group. Remember, base radius is only 180, the big shade boosts it to 300. A group that does not have a boss on farm is likely not as stacked as you’d want them to be, so the radius increase would also help a ton, because the very people that tend to be in places they shouldn’t be are the people needing barrier the most)

Yes, it’s a limit of 5 targets. For you and each shade. With just one shade, you can affect 10 total people. With three shades, you can affect 20 total targets.

Sand Savant changes it from 5+5+5+5 to 10+10.

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

Scourge lesson: Never forget that you’re also a shade! Make this aspect less good overall, true.

The range argument remains the same though. 180 is very small indeed, it’s little more than the range of a dagger melee attack.

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Posted by: Lahmia.2193

Lahmia.2193

From personal experience, the 3 shades felt clunky as hell. I’d be more willing to use the 3 shades if they removed the 1/2 cd between uses of Manifest Sand Shade.

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Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

the 1/2 CD isn’t really the bad thing for me, the 15s recharge for the ammo is.

Some people said each ammo count recharges individually, but that’s just not the case for me, making the upkeep of two shades fairly clunky. I managed over 5 minutes, but it was fairly involved, and seems fairly unrealistic in a real fight when you also need to move and stuff.

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Posted by: Lahmia.2193

Lahmia.2193

the 1/2 CD isn’t really the bad thing for me, the 15s recharge for the ammo is.

Some people said each ammo count recharges individually, but that’s just not the case for me, making the upkeep of two shades fairly clunky. I managed over 5 minutes, but it was fairly involved, and seems fairly unrealistic in a real fight when you also need to move and stuff.

That too. I thought the same but its 1 ammo recharge at a time. So the only way to have perma “3” shades up is by using the savant trait.

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Thanks for explanations.

New question:

  • Has anyone tried a 331 condi build , namely how was the damage without the GM burn trait ?

Thanks

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Posted by: Flumek.9043

Flumek.9043

Im asking because i saw some WVW guy show a graph of his zerg dmg

2/3 was burning
1/3 was torment
10% was power dmg of minfest shade
all other condies did around 5% each

with such dependance on a specific combo of 2 GM traits , and the bariers not scalling with a bigger shade, i dont really the all out dmg gimmick and would prefer more support

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Posted by: Bash.7291

Bash.7291

As a WvW player, I have to say the big shade feels much better to play than using the three smaller shades, You can move your damage around alot easier, and since it also switches the shade abilities off you to 10 targets, it also makes it easier to support your group with barriers and cleanses. The odds that your going to have 3 shades and yourself in good spots is ALOT lower than just having 1 shade and yourself in good positions to make use of your skills.

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Posted by: Shadow Dragon Ad.2409

Shadow Dragon Ad.2409

Personally I’ve found big shade to be super good in PvP, the fact it gives you a permanent 15% damage reduction without having to try and manage your charge timer with mini shades is just so good. Also the additional range (around both the shade and yourself) means you cleave people extremely well.

The added mobility to your area of influence can’t be overstated, the fact you can move your shade more often and the shades area is so much larger means I feel like I control far more space with big shade. Further people are forgetting how much support your shade skills are worth, you cleanse condis and give barrier on an extremely short cooldown and allowing that happen 300 range around your shade and yourself is invaluable in teamfights imo.

Also given that you’re running large shade and can more reliably hit the shade abilities on more enemies taking the more supportive traits or shade reliant traits can be a massive boon to your team and your own survivability (it also makes Path of Corruption and Dhuumfire insane). I think people are focusing too much on how much damage you can potentially do as scourge when you already do easily enough to get the job done in most cases. I know I’d much rather survive and consistently output damage than have higher burst but die faster.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

the 1/2 CD isn’t really the bad thing for me, the 15s recharge for the ammo is.

Some people said each ammo count recharges individually, but that’s just not the case for me, making the upkeep of two shades fairly clunky. I managed over 5 minutes, but it was fairly involved, and seems fairly unrealistic in a real fight when you also need to move and stuff.

That too. I thought the same but its 1 ammo recharge at a time. So the only way to have perma “3” shades up is by using the savant trait.

Yeah, equivalent mechanics recharge individually in other games (such as Diablo 3), but it’s very clear that they recharge consecutively in GW2. You can test this with existing skills using the ammo mechanic such as guardian spirit weapons and mesmer mantras.

Which can make it quite difficult to even maintain three shades in an extended encounter, let alone make sure that they’re all somewhere useful. In a mobile encounter, it might make it hard to ensure that even ONE is in a useful position!

The big shade, however, can be redeployed almost at will.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I’ve only ever seen another systems recharge consecutively. Corki, Teemo, and Rumble in League of Legends behave this way. Skills with charges in Diablo 3 work this way. I literally cannot think of a single example where charges are recovered simultaneously instead of sequentially.

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Posted by: Rangerdeity.5847

Rangerdeity.5847

In PvP its a godsend its basically a sanctuary for your team in a fight where you bomb them with barriers and cleanses. while scaring your enemie with the chance of you casting fear on it.

In PvE its kinda meh take it or leave it. I prefer having 3 so you can place 1-2 on enemies and 1-2 on allies

In WvW the reduced CD is nice and you can place it at a gate to spam barriers on allies but by giving up that trait for the bottom GM trait you gain the most nuclear boon generation in game. you steal dozens of boons at a time that GM honestly needs an ICD you have too much corruption and boon stripping in your kit to warrent a GM trait where you flat out steal those boons.

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

Some ppl will use the Big Shade some ppl (like me) use the 3 normal Shades, I think it comes down to the situation, game-mode (maybe) and your individual preference and evn practice with the mechanic itself.

We see more on Live, but I think this always gonna be down to personal choice & situational.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

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Posted by: Rangerdeity.5847

Rangerdeity.5847

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

total effected people is the same 5 for each regular shade plus 5 for you is 20 or 10 for mega shade 10 for you is 20 either way you can effect 20 players

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Posted by: Shiki.7148

Shiki.7148

For me, it’ll propably be big shade in PvP and small shades in PvE. Having a shade constantly helps a lot in pvp, the bigger radius on it means you just might catch a pesky ranged opponent with the very edge of the AE, and in the sometimes pretty hectic PvP, managing 3 shades would be annoying as hell. ’Sides, as Hollts just has proven, damage without Demonic Lore is perfectly fine in sPvP. In PvE though? Give me 3 shades that each pulse Dhuumfire, Torment and thanks to Demonic Lore even more burn because of that torment. Then maybe add Blood is Power and Epidemic and we have are going to have a party X)

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Posted by: Aetatis.5418

Aetatis.5418

3 shades should not work on a single target (mentioned by devs). more than one target, far away from each other, changes everything tho.

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

3 shades should not work on a single target (mentioned by devs). more than one target, far away from each other, changes everything tho.

And I disagree with that reasoning entirely. Wouldn’t it be better to have some situations where stacking them is good and some where you need the larger AoE?

Seems like another case of ‘the vision’ taking precedence over gameplay.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Sigmoid.7082

Sigmoid.7082

3 shades should not work on a single target (mentioned by devs). more than one target, far away from each other, changes everything tho.

Last I remember the actual attack “Manifest Sand Shade” could hit multiple times on the same targets but any other effects were caused only once. i.e 2 boons converted not 4~8 or 1s of fear not 4s.

Anyways in large scale WvW Savant is much better than the smaller shades for several reasons.

(edited by Sigmoid.7082)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

Isn’t it a test of skill to see if you can catch a target in multiple small AoEs? One Shade = decent, Triple Shade = dead. Poor positioning should be punished against a area control class.

Why would you need to nerf the procs at all? Does 100 blades need to be nerfed because you can get a full channel on some targets?

Why shouldn’t someone get blown up if the Scourge blows all their CDs and the target stands there and does nothing?

Add to that its a great way to balance PvE and PvP. Only NPCs and bad players get caught in multiple Shades.

(edited by Maxzero.4032)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

Isn’t it a test of skill to see if you can catch a target in multiple small AoEs? One Shade = decent, Triple Shade = dead. Poor positioning should be punished against a area control class.

Why would you need to nerf the procs at all? Does 100 blades need to be nerfed because you can get a full channel on some targets?

Why shouldn’t someone get blown up if the Scourge blows all their CDs and the target stands there and does nothing?

Add to that its a great way to balance PvE and PvP. Only NPCs and bad players get caught in multiple Shades.

Most capture points, Foefire middle excepted, are small enough that you could put down three shades that overlap the majority of the point while leaving very little of the point, if any at all, outside the area of effect of at least one, and don’t forget that the Scourge themselves count as a shade. If it was possible to hit a single target with multiple shades, then all the Scourge needs to do is be on the point themselves and anyone who contests the point will be being hit by at least two, and quite likely four, blasts.

At anything even close to the power of this weekend, that’s not ‘skill’. That’s ‘I own this point now, anyone who tries to say otherwise will die as I faceroll F2-F4’. It’d make the old turret engineers and full trap dragonhunters look like easily countered amateurs at point control.

And that’s just considering PvP, where your opponents can be reasonably expected to try to avoid being hit by multiple shades if they can reasonably avoid it. There are raid bosses that are stationary, or close to it…

Anyway, to go back to the original topic of the thread, the big shade trait is balanced according to how the shades actually behave, rather than how you’d like them to behave. If ArenaNet was to change them to be able to stack damage, they’d probably have to adjust how the big shade works to compensate. But I’d be willing to bet that if they made them stack damage, than the effect of each individual strike would be nerfed by at least 50%.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

(edited by draxynnic.3719)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

Isn’t it a test of skill to see if you can catch a target in multiple small AoEs? One Shade = decent, Triple Shade = dead. Poor positioning should be punished against a area control class.

Why would you need to nerf the procs at all? Does 100 blades need to be nerfed because you can get a full channel on some targets?

Why shouldn’t someone get blown up if the Scourge blows all their CDs and the target stands there and does nothing?

Add to that its a great way to balance PvE and PvP. Only NPCs and bad players get caught in multiple Shades.

Most capture points, Foefire middle excepted, are small enough that you could put down three shades that overlap the majority of the point while leaving very little of the point, if any at all, outside the area of effect of at least one, and don’t forget that the Scourge themselves count as a shade. If it was possible to hit a single target with multiple shades, then all the Scourge needs to do is be on the point themselves and anyone who contests the point will be being hit by at least two, and quite likely four, blasts.

At anything even close to the power of this weekend, that’s not ‘skill’. That’s ‘I own this point now, anyone who tries to say otherwise will die as I faceroll F2-F4’. It’d make the old turret engineers and full trap dragonhunters look like easily countered amateurs at point control.

And that’s just considering PvP, where your opponents can be reasonably expected to try to avoid being hit by multiple shades if they can reasonably avoid it. There are raid bosses that are stationary, or close to it…

Anyway, to go back to the original topic of the thread, the big shade trait is balanced according to how the shades actually behave, rather than how you’d like them to behave. If ArenaNet was to change them to be able to stack damage, they’d probably have to adjust how the big shade works to compensate. But I’d be willing to bet that if they made them stack damage, than the effect of each individual strike would be nerfed by at least 50%.

The thing is you can’t keep 3 Shades up perma. You blow your three Shades then you have nothing for 15 seconds. Its all burst and no sustain.

In PvE you can’t even perma 2 Shades without Alacrity and well Necro has a long way to go before its OP for PvE. If any class deserves some time in the sun in PvE its Necro.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

Isn’t it a test of skill to see if you can catch a target in multiple small AoEs? One Shade = decent, Triple Shade = dead. Poor positioning should be punished against a area control class.

Why would you need to nerf the procs at all? Does 100 blades need to be nerfed because you can get a full channel on some targets?

Why shouldn’t someone get blown up if the Scourge blows all their CDs and the target stands there and does nothing?

Add to that its a great way to balance PvE and PvP. Only NPCs and bad players get caught in multiple Shades.

Most capture points, Foefire middle excepted, are small enough that you could put down three shades that overlap the majority of the point while leaving very little of the point, if any at all, outside the area of effect of at least one, and don’t forget that the Scourge themselves count as a shade. If it was possible to hit a single target with multiple shades, then all the Scourge needs to do is be on the point themselves and anyone who contests the point will be being hit by at least two, and quite likely four, blasts.

At anything even close to the power of this weekend, that’s not ‘skill’. That’s ‘I own this point now, anyone who tries to say otherwise will die as I faceroll F2-F4’. It’d make the old turret engineers and full trap dragonhunters look like easily countered amateurs at point control.

And that’s just considering PvP, where your opponents can be reasonably expected to try to avoid being hit by multiple shades if they can reasonably avoid it. There are raid bosses that are stationary, or close to it…

Anyway, to go back to the original topic of the thread, the big shade trait is balanced according to how the shades actually behave, rather than how you’d like them to behave. If ArenaNet was to change them to be able to stack damage, they’d probably have to adjust how the big shade works to compensate. But I’d be willing to bet that if they made them stack damage, than the effect of each individual strike would be nerfed by at least 50%.

so what ??? kill the necro then cap the kitten point….
again people want necros to be useless and be facerollable….

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

Isn’t it a test of skill to see if you can catch a target in multiple small AoEs? One Shade = decent, Triple Shade = dead. Poor positioning should be punished against a area control class.

Why would you need to nerf the procs at all? Does 100 blades need to be nerfed because you can get a full channel on some targets?

Why shouldn’t someone get blown up if the Scourge blows all their CDs and the target stands there and does nothing?

Add to that its a great way to balance PvE and PvP. Only NPCs and bad players get caught in multiple Shades.

Most capture points, Foefire middle excepted, are small enough that you could put down three shades that overlap the majority of the point while leaving very little of the point, if any at all, outside the area of effect of at least one, and don’t forget that the Scourge themselves count as a shade. If it was possible to hit a single target with multiple shades, then all the Scourge needs to do is be on the point themselves and anyone who contests the point will be being hit by at least two, and quite likely four, blasts.

At anything even close to the power of this weekend, that’s not ‘skill’. That’s ‘I own this point now, anyone who tries to say otherwise will die as I faceroll F2-F4’. It’d make the old turret engineers and full trap dragonhunters look like easily countered amateurs at point control.

And that’s just considering PvP, where your opponents can be reasonably expected to try to avoid being hit by multiple shades if they can reasonably avoid it. There are raid bosses that are stationary, or close to it…

Anyway, to go back to the original topic of the thread, the big shade trait is balanced according to how the shades actually behave, rather than how you’d like them to behave. If ArenaNet was to change them to be able to stack damage, they’d probably have to adjust how the big shade works to compensate. But I’d be willing to bet that if they made them stack damage, than the effect of each individual strike would be nerfed by at least 50%.

so what ??? kill the necro then cap the kitten point….
again people want necros to be useless and be facerollable….

I read a story on here or reddit on how players were hesistating when they saw a Scourge defending a point. People were actually afraid of Necromancers for once.

I mean what are some of the nerf herders hoping for? Do they think that if they act all meek that somehow Anet will take pity on Necro and be merciful? 5 years of GW2 tells me that ain’t going to happen.

I swear some players are so used to being kitten on that have come to accept it as normal and that they are noble martyrs for supporting the nerfs. If Scourge does get nerfed are they going to cheer?

I for one welcome the Scourge overlords. Time to put some real fear into GW2.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

total effected people is the same 5 for each regular shade plus 5 for you is 20 or 10 for mega shade 10 for you is 20 either way you can effect 20 players

You don’t understand how raid subgroups work. A skill affecting 5 people prioritizes the 5 people in your subgroup, it doesn’t matter if you have 2 shades out and are next to them yourself, if your subgroups are sorted so there are 5 people in your subgroup, wich is mostly the case in raids, the skills will not affect the other subgroup unless you target 10 players.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.