Guild Wars 2

Ichor here. I’ve been following the Necro forums for a good while now and am finally to the point where I feel like I can add to the discussion, so here goes:

I want to preface my opinions by declaring my love for this profession. I’ve had tons of fun with it and it has incredible potential. But I love to hate it too, because I’m also one of those who believes Necromancer to be ArenaNet’s red-headed stepchild when it comes to professions in this game – both in design and implementation. It’s really evident (to me) that we don’t have a developer in our camp. And there are many reasons for that, but for the purposes of this thread I’m sticking to Death Shroud.

Now, I’m not one of those people who will sit here and moan about DS not being useful, because it can be. However, I am annoyed by the people who tout it for being a secondary health bar that can soak burst damage. That’s true, it can, and no other profession has access to something like that – but why should they? It’s OUR profession mechanic after all. And since ArenaNet decided that we’re supposed to take hits, it kind of makes sense. But what really grinds my gears (Peter Griffin voice) is how we already have the highest base HP AND DS scales with vitality. I understand that classes were given different base health pools as a matter of balance, but to combine the highest base with a mechanic like DS (in my opinion) is a redundancy that does more harm to our build potential than good.

If I understand effective health correctly, the golden ratio is 1 armor:10 HP (if this is wrong, please let me know). Having the highest base HP AND DS tips the scales heavily in the direction of HP, which has two very limiting effects: First, it steers us away from any gear with +Vitality, which limits our stat choices in terms of gear. Secondly, it steers us away from spending any trait points in the Blood Magic line, which has some very nice traits (for daggers, siphoning (if siphoning were worth it), and wells). Now, I realize this doesn’t stop people from succesfully running Carrion or Soldier gear and/or traiting down the BM line. My point is that, if you want to be efficient attribute-wise as a Necro, you really shouldn’t mess around a whole lot with Vitality. Imagine the extra DPS you could achieve if you were able to spend the 800 points worth of Vitality you get from a full Soldier’s set elsewhere! Sure, DS wouldn’t be as hearty, but it’d be much more offensive.

In no other profession does the design and specific mechanic have such an influence on building, and I don’t think that’s fair. One possibility would be for DS to not scale with any attribute (though Soul Reaping could still increase pool size). That would call for buffs in other areas. Another possibility would be to get rid of the second health bar characteristic entirely and give us access to more/different means of attrition through crowd control or damage mitigation. The risk with that, though, is is that we begin to lose our current identity and become more like the other professions (only with green/black/insect/skeleton effects). Personally, I think main problem is our high base HP, and the best option for us would be to knock that down and buff our damage output and/or mitigation accordingly. Then, depending on our build, we’d be able to pick up Vitality through BM or our gear without gimping ourselves in the process. DS would still scale with Vitality, allowing us to ramp up attrition capabilities (through health and DS pool size, anyway) to our liking.

EDIT: Got rid of a useless heading, fixed a typo, and finished a thought.

1.) Its no that there is a golden ratio across the board for effective health, the 1T=1Vit is mostly a Necro and Warrior thing when min maxing (with healing power having only half their value unless support), Eles for example get more out of Toughness and Healing power than Vitality, Mesmer and Guardian setups value Vitality (because of mass aegis and protection with high regen uptimes), Thief Engie and Ranger all get minior benefits from all 3 defensive stats resulting in a 1Vit=1T=1Heal worth.
2. With a high base hp pool you dont need to spec for defensive stats unless you want to run a protective/tanking fractal setup or for Arah and even then with a coordinated group (or 2 of ele/guard/warr in it), the defensive stats can also be ignored for zerker/rampager/rabid.
3. Honestly id love to see life siphon and/or LF gain scale off vitality too, it would give a bigger hp variation over a fight making our effective hp even more deceptive than a eles.

Thanks for the feedback. I have some comments/questions though:

1) For EHP, I didn’t say 1 Toughness: 1 Vitality. In fact, I don’t think that’s a correct way to gauge EHP. I did realize, however, that the calculator I pulled that 1:10 ratio from was from GW1, so I’m not sure if it holds true for GW2. Anyway, how is optimizing effective health only a Necromancer and Warrior thing? Since I’m not really familiar with other classes on that level, can you provide examples of how Elementalists get more out of Toughness and Healing Power? Or how Mesmer and Guardian value Vitality? Guardian valuing Vitality doesn’t make sense to me BECAUSE they have so much Aegis/Protection/Regeneration.

2) I’m familiar with the playstyles and situations that DPS Necro builds require. But another thing that annoys me/I find unfair is how people say we can ignore defensive stats in builds, so long as X condition is satisfied. We don’t deserve to have to rely on kiting everything or party composition because the “attrition” buffer they’ve given us isn’t enough to compensate. This all goes back to my argument that the massive amount of health available to us isn’t as effective as other means of damage mitigation and limits our gear/trait choices from an efficiency standpoint.

3) I didn’t propose either of those things. What I meant by siphoning not being worth it is that I think it could use a buff and/or a rework. Do I think it should scale with Vitality? No. Healing power? Maybe. I really just wish it were more potent, so it would at least make up for what you’re losing by spending 10 -20 points in BM.

The one major reason I don’t run high vitality in a build that would focus more on DS is because the total life force while in DS is a percentage of your vitality, and as we all know, LF naturally degens at a % rate, so the more vitality you have, the faster it degens naturally. Taking in the fact you’re still getting hit too, it evens out to what you would encounter at a lower vit anyway. So a DS centric build should focus more on faster attacks and more LF generating traits to maximize DS activation not upkeep. DS upkeep never was, and most likely never will be, a viable tactic. That’s just my 2 cents worth and a hard lesson learned by me. Once I finally accepted it, DS and i became better friends.

@Nay: I agree, DS-centric builds should trait and choose weapons that build LF quickly so they can hop into DS as often as possible. No argument there.

I wasn’t really getting at how Vitality applies to DS-centric builds though. I am, however trying to get at how Vitality applies to the Necro in general – calling attention to what I think is a drawback/fault in our profession design coupled with our profession mechanic.

Ichor.9360:

Thanks for the feedback. I have some comments/questions though:

1) For EHP, I didn’t say 1 Toughness: 1 Vitality. In fact, I don’t think that’s a correct way to gauge EHP. I did realize, however, that the calculator I pulled that 1:10 ratio from was from GW1, so I’m not sure if it holds true for GW2. Anyway, how is optimizing effective health only a Necromancer and Warrior thing? Since I’m not really familiar with other classes on that level, can you provide examples of how Elementalists get more out of Toughness and Healing Power? Or how Mesmer and Guardian value Vitality? Guardian valuing Vitality doesn’t make sense to me BECAUSE they have so much Aegis/Protection/Regeneration.

2) I’m familiar with the playstyles and situations that DPS Necro builds require. But another thing that annoys me/I find unfair is how people say we can ignore defensive stats in builds, so long as X condition is satisfied. We don’t deserve to have to rely on kiting everything or party composition because the "attrition" buffer they’ve given us isn’t enough to compensate. This all goes back to my argument that the massive amount of health available to us isn’t as effective as other means of damage mitigation and limits our gear/trait choices from an efficiency standpoint.

1) Since 1T=1 Armor and 1Vit=10Hp i hold it pretty much the same (base armor from light to heavy is around a 300 difference, so its pretty much as if protection gives heavy a 40% reduction instead of 33% if we take light as the base without special stats on gear, having indirect diminishing returns the more the person gets his toughness up in terms of hp worth), but true i should have stated it as armor:hp not T:Vit.

Also i think you mistook my point in T:Vit only being a necro and warrior thing, i ment their value for effective hp, not the only ones worth doing it on, since Toughness and Vitality were the main 2 stats pointed out in the post.

Elementalists low hp pool can be used with their high boon uptime as what i mentioned in part 3, deceptive hp, since there are between 4 to 7 easy skills they can use that have over a 0.5 healing ratio lets a ele go up to 60~80% hp from under 10%. And since toughness decreases the amount of punishment taken it gives it a higher effective hp value than vitality. On a Mesmer on the other hand (and lesser degree a guardian) catching one off guard since their defensive options tend to be more reactive puts him at a weaker spot, thus having a higher initial buffer with blocking/reduction to compensate/work with the fact that reactive skills cannot hold up in hit and run fights (mesmers getting more benefits from armor in phantasam builds and guardians having a higher benefit from healing power if build for offensive use because of trait synergy and high ratios, but thats going into specific builds again).

2) While i do see what you are trying to say, i dont agree on the point that a build/setup designed to do one thing should be efficient at doing other, thats kinda what tends to cause power creep effects and "being overpowered"; here i shall use the example of a character in league of legends that is pretty simmilar to the necro in design, Cho’Gath, he has crowd control, minior healing effects, a inefficient hp buffer, mostly based on aoe and one high damage trick (lich form in necro case/transfusion on DS), being a melee with no mobility the base build falls into medium damage and high survivability, but if the team is set so that he can chose a pure offensive role, bothering with the survivability just weakens the setup.
*On a personal note, i think that both Cho and Necros in GW2 should never be the main damage dealers because the effciency we can push out with base stats and defensive options gives a bigger net benefit, but hey if the offensive setups make sense im not the one to stop it*

Traits lines are picked... well for the traits, not the stats.

Last but not least i do agree that DS is inefficient as the main damage migration necros can use (workaround being using chill and weakness, but that putting a bandage on a infected bleeding wound, sure it helps for a while but after some time it does more harm than good).

Sorry for wall of text.

No problem! I’m happy to read and comment.

1) All right, I think I follow your math, or at least understand what you’re trying to say. Basically, more armor equals less damage reduction via protection (in terms of a raw number). Which is true (stacking Toughness without regard for your HP can tip the EHP scale too far the other way).

I agree with Elementalists favoring Toughness over Vitality, as it makes sense with their many boons and sources of healing and damage reduction. I disagree with Guardians’ defense being reactive. I’d argue that Guardians fall into the same category as Elementalists in terms of EHP, since they have access to tons of boons and damage reduction as well. Aegis is the opposite of reactive.

As far a Mesmers being reactive – that’s fine. But what’s the difference between absorbing an initial burst if caught off guard with Vitality vs. Toughness (or a mix of both)? Especially if the extra Vitality can’t be recovered through healing?

2) I agree with being good at too many things often leads to being OP. I didn’t suggest being good at other things with no cost though. My point was that giving us this much soft HP is a less efficient form of survivability (or “attrition”). Reducing the raw number of soft HP we get by default (including DS) would decrease survivability, that’s the trade-off. In turn, the Blood Magic line and gear with +Vitality would be much more viable/appealing, since we aren’t sacrificing DPS for more of something we already have plenty of in order to get traits we may want. Which reminds me: in no way did I mean anyone should trait for stats over actual traits – that’d be silly. Again, my point was that the BM line has a subtractive element to it when you take our base HP and DS into consideration.

I don’t think Necros should be the heaviest damage dealers either. But I think some of our damage-doing potential is hindered for reasons I have previously stated.

As a reminder, this game was developed so that professions wouldn’t specialize in DPS, tanking, or healing. Sure, you can lean one way or another to fit your playstyle. What I don’t think is helpful is when people talk about how you can neglect something (usually survivability) in favor of something else (usually DPS) because of such-and-such a party setup. I’d like for this thread to be as general as it can be across all game modes, leaving party composition (not to mention specific dungeons/fights, etc.) out of the equation.

Let me put it this way, a lot of people like the saying “The best defense is a good offense” no matter the situation.

As for the guardian, again it depends on build, but the main trick to think about here is the fact that while aegis does stack on time, its gone on 1 hit, but there are multiple skills they can use that block enemy attacks (be it just the next one or for a amount of time), so reducing incoming damage can go either way, its just that using the blocking skills tends to be more efficient than just stacking toughness since damage isnt calculated with subtraction, but division and unlike a eles continous burst of healing, guardians have more passive and multiple small bursts of healing like removal of aegis, dropping a symbol, regeneration, virtue of resolve, dodge roll, attack chains/effects, etc. (with 1 full heal that depends on a long cast time, a consecration heal stong as the healing skill that pretty build specific and popping a elite or using said healing skill being the only heals i can remember that can pop bigger numbers.)

On the same note what i said about damage calculation about the guardian applies to the mesmer, having a low hp pool, not matter how high the toughness and no chainable burst disruption (like eles with auras and cantrips have), if a theif catches a high armor low hp enemy, using the signet, baz venom, mug (optional CND depending on traits) into backstab (being around 21k damage for now, then going into other optional bursts like headshot infiltrator pistolwhip or onto shortbow for a easy escape doing hit and runs) will get the person killed, same thing if Bullrush, 100b, Whirl, Bola, Charge, Arcing (if timed right or used with frenzy you are stunlocked while getting hit for 42k~ damage- not calculating might or non base toughness -and either forced to stunbreak and/or cleanse to dodge away or die unless you got DS or use a evade skill), such damage bursts, no matter how high the toughness, wont let you survive especially if the enemy has a follow up or catches you with less than 100% hp on a low hp character.
The real difference between vit and toughness kinda the same as between being a investor for a project or investing in the stocks market, getting a nice chunk upfront or potentially more over time.

Andele.1306:

Let me put it this way, a lot of people like the saying “The best defense is a good offense” no matter the situation.

True, but hopefully this isn’t how I’m being understood. I like the idea of Necros being attrition masters, and want for us to keep that identity. I’m really just trying to get at how the “attrition” capabilities we’ve been given aren’t efficient and put pressure on our attributes, which I believe is unfair since no other profession mechanic is constraining like ours is.

I want to get this thread back on topic (not that I don’t like discussing the different professions and how they maintain their health pools).

Can some more of the more prevalent forum posters weigh in on my thoughts from the original post? I’d appreciate the discussion. Thanks!

EDIT: Fixed the quote.

I apologize for the unnecessary bump, but I wanted to say I changed the name of the thread in hopes of gaining more interest/being taken seriously – I didn’t want this to get passed over because it sounded like a pointless, whiny rant.

I think the only bad thing about Death Shroud is the amount of traits they left in the game that encourage staying inside DS. Staying in DS (longer than a few seconds) is one of the worst ways to actually use the skill, and as such those abilities are pretty bad. It would be a lot better if they changed them to have similar effects without needing to stay in DS.

I’m not a prevalent forum poster but I personally have played necro 90% of my time in GW2 since BWE1. Almost rank 50 in Spvp but have stopped that 2 months ago. 1500 total hours played. My favorite class in this game by far.

But my gripe with death shroud and necros in general actually (as it’s the same problem), is the scaling. Some skills seem to require it to be good and others have poor scaling. The only life siphon skill that scales is Dagger #2.

The rate at which death shroud scales seems to get worse the higher death shroud you have. The rate of the auto-drain is a static percentage so each tick increases with the more maximum you have. This is why I agree with your analysis regarding stacking more vitality / Soul reaping to increase maximum death shroud having diminishing returns.

The high base vitality along with death shroud supports the philosophy of necros being able to take more hits. This somehow is supposed to justify us not having many or great escape/mobility abilities. In reality, the survivability we get from this doesn’t compare to the survivability other classes receive from their escape/mobility abilities.

So in my opinion it’s really a scaling issue overall and attrition can be very viable when there is better scaling!

TL:DR;

WTB reasonable Life Siphon and Death Shroud scaling please!

You gave me a crazy idea with all the vitality talk.

What if Life Force increased your max HP in real time? Here’s an example, but ignore the numbers I use in terms of balance or not, just need to have numbers for the example: Lets say your max HP is 20,000, but when you gain life force, it slowly increases, and then eventually you have 30,000 (100% life force). If you are at 20,000hp while gaining life force, your current health does not jump up (keeping percentages), but you can now be healed up to that amount. With this change, the amount of life force you have should be able to let you take more hits, since the additional HP will ALWAYS be in effect (unlike currently where you need to activate Death Shroud to use it’s additional HP). When inside Death Shroud, you use the life force and the additional HP over your main amount when hit (so it functions like it currently is), but since it uses that top bit, it would and decrease your maximum (non death shroud) HP simultaneously (so if you enter with 30,000 total HP and take damage or use all your life force, you’ll have at 20,000 hp after warping back because it also controls your max and you decreased that). This would create a kind of dichotomy – do you hoard life force for defense or do you warp back and forth, like now, to use it’s skills and occasionally as a meat shield?

This change however isn’t perfect. It relies on needing huge or steady heals to get to the additional buffer zone when not in death shroud. Perhaps they could make some different traits to help it so you gain health when you gain life force for example. Vampiric would also help though.

Unpredictability.4086:

You gave me a crazy idea with all the vitality talk.

What if Life Force increased your max HP in real time? Here’s an example, but ignore the numbers I use in terms of balance or not, just need to have numbers for the example: Lets say your max HP is 20,000, but when you gain life force, it slowly increases, and then eventually you have 30,000 (100% life force). If you are at 20,000hp while gaining life force, your current health does not jump up (keeping percentages), but you can now be healed up to that amount. With this change, the amount of life force you have should be able to let you take more hits, since the additional HP will ALWAYS be in effect (unlike currently where you need to activate Death Shroud to use it’s additional HP). When inside Death Shroud, you use the life force and the additional HP over your main amount when hit (so it functions like it currently is), but since it uses that top bit, it would and decrease your maximum (non death shroud) HP simultaneously (so if you enter with 30,000 total HP and take damage or use all your life force, you’ll have at 20,000 hp after warping back because it also controls your max and you decreased that)

Problem with that is, Magis gear with well of blood would make the necro a night unstoppable monster, imagine this, you drop to 10% hp, use up your life force and then drop well of blood with the amount of healing power you have youd jump right back up to around 40 or 50% and then regen to 100% (hello 3.4 healing power ratio), with how fast you regen LF in a Dagger/WH and Staff setup with soul marks, you would actually need a zerg of 40+ people to kill 5 necros infront of a door if they chain their WoB and Swalls in wvwvw or 5 people pre cap in sPvP popping pretty much all of their cooldowns on 1 person (well you could tech seen do the same with eles in Apothecary, but thats off the point and they are locked to set cooldowns and would need perfect timing).

soiheardyoulikevitality

Nay of the Ether.8913:

The one major reason I don’t run high vitality in a build that would focus more on DS is because the total life force while in DS is a percentage of your vitality, and as we all know, LF naturally degens at a % rate, so the more vitality you have, the faster it degens naturally. Taking in the fact you’re still getting hit too, it evens out to what you would encounter at a lower vit anyway. So a DS centric build should focus more on faster attacks and more LF generating traits to maximize DS activation not upkeep. DS upkeep never was, and most likely never will be, a viable tactic. That’s just my 2 cents worth and a hard lesson learned by me. Once I finally accepted it, DS and i became better friends.

If you have more vitality, isn’t the % of LF degens is the same? I’m talking about the % it self, not the ammount of numbers.

Yes, LF degen is 4% (3% traited) whether you have base 18k HP or have 40k. Its why staying in DS more than a few seconds is bad.

Kyskythyn.6471:

soiheardyoulikevitality

My only question is why are you using Well of Power?

Kiriakulos.1690:

Kyskythyn.6471:

soiheardyoulikevitality

My only question is why are you using Well of Power?

Protection on cast and on epidemic use?

Bhawb.7408:

Yes, LF degen is 4% (3% traited) whether you have base 18k HP or have 40k. Its why staying in DS more than a few seconds is bad.

Isn’t there something wrong with that though? Regardless of whether or not you trait to improve DS, shouldn’t using our profession mechanic provide a consistent positive benefit when we use it? Given that it operates differently than other profession mechanics, how is it fair to give us something that we aren’t going to use to its full extent because there’s a point at which it doesn’t become worth it to? Are there other profession mechanics like this?

Although you degen more hp per tic in DS, you must also remember that you gain life force in percents. Higher vitality means that your spectral “heals” and other LF generators are more effective.

Andele.1306:

Protection on cast and on epidemic use?

Essentially this for the well of power question. Well of Power converts over time for the caster even if you do not stand in the circle for the duration, so I find it more effective for enemies stacking many instances of a single condition.

It does have a positive benefit, you get 4 extra skills, all of which are quite useful, and a second HP bar equivalent to roughly 60% of your HP, up to 78% with 30 SR. That means with a full LF bar, you have eHP of 28.6k HP, with base HP; that person with 40k HP has eHP of 64k. More HP and extra skills will never be a negative thing, just like other profession mechanics, it is just up to you to use them to their maximum effectiveness (don’t sit in death shroud, use it right as a burst comes and leave it right after, or use it for its gap closer/interrupt and leave).

Also, like Kyskythyn said, LF gain is % based. A 1% LF gain with base Death Shroud (about 11k eHP) is only 1.1k eHP. With 30k HP (easily attainable, even in PvP), and 30SR, 1% LF is 2.3k eHP.

Right. I know how/when to use DS appropriately, and I didn’t mean that it doesn’t have a positive benefit. Going back to my original post, does any other profession mechanic have such an attribute-based benefit? Not that I’m aware of.

When you’re making a build in another profession, if you decide you want traits that happen to be in the Vitality line, you probably don’t gear for any more Vitality (unless you’re trying to make some sort of tank/support-exclusive build which, by nature, will have piddly DPS). If your traits don’t net you any Vitality, you probably pick some up with your gear. Right now, with how DS is, it feels like we are wasting attributes by spending trait points in Blood Magic because of our naturally high health pool + DS. Sure, DS scales with Vitality, but that only compounds the problem. We then need a bunch of Toughness to make sure that HP is effective. So what I’m saying is, for us to stack any more Vitality comes at the cost of DPS, which it obviously does for all professions, but we feel it the most as light armor wearers with the highest base HP with a profession mechanic that adds more HP. And that fact (I believe) contributes to why so many people complain about how weak we feel – compared to other professions – unless you build a glass cannon hybrid or powermancer.

I don’t follow you. Vitality isn’t even remotely bad on a Necromancer because of our Death Shroud mechanic. In other classes, you want to build toughness and vitality at the same time, since more toughness increases you eHP (especially since it makes each bit of healing more effective), while vitality just increases that base HP.

For Necromancers, it is much less obvious what you want to build between the two of them, because of the added variables of Death Shroud and Life Force gain. Higher toughness will make your already high eHP even higher, but since Vitality scales so strongly, and because LF gain is based off %, your eHP gain through LF gain is very comparable with both vitality and toughness (I’d even say vitality does much better than toughness in high LF generating builds).

That is why having high Vitality is just fine, you don’t lose any DPS because you are just going to use vitality instead of toughness. Also, Blood Magic will actually increase DPS (slightly), via siphon effects. For Necromancers, vitality vs toughness is more dependent on your build, the higher your LF generation and the higher your SR, the more effective vitality becomes.

Haha, I’m not saying Vitality is bad on a Necromancer, or that DS makes it bad. I suppose what you could boil my argument down to is that I wish we wouldn’t have been given the highest base health pool. And that is because of all of the ways we benefit from Vitality (LF and DS and siphoning).

So from my point of view, it’d follow to have a smaller base HP pool, since we are already likely to be adding some amount of Vitality either through traits or gear. That way, our final HP tally wouldn’t be overkill, we could make sure it’s as effective as possible through Toughness, and we’d be able to dump more points into power/precision/critical damage to get us to a place where people are satisfied with our DPS without having to run such low survivability.

Does that make sense? Not just for you, but for everyone in terms of how other professions are able to build without having to take how their profession design (base health, in this case) and mechanic interacts with their attributes into such consideration?

Nerf down our base hp to that of elementist / mesmer

Buff Death shroud hp thingy

Change death shroud to have more than F1,
F1 Power
F2 Condition
F3 Dmg mitigation
F4 Minion group hug, heals minions untill lifeforce is depleted in a cuddly hug animation.

And Full access to all utility skills while in death shroud for better combat flow.
All minion skills are now instant cast for better combat flow ( minons themself still have their cast time).

Our class mechanic should be fun and encouraged to use not this abomination it currently is.

I don’t see a problem with DS functionality or skills. In fact, I’m surprised by how many people complain about having a gap-closer (however reliable), an interrupt, and a strong AoE attack…

Let’s try to stay away from DS redesign in this thread though. I’m more concerned with how people feel about a nerf to our base health pool because of the strong, positive effect Vitality has on our mechanic, and considering it generally isn’t beneficial to stay in DS for more than a few moments anyway (to get skills off/soak damage). Such a nerf would allow us to make our regular HP (not DS) more effective, and allow for spreading more attributes into areas that improve DPS.

I am wondering if DS is not being slightly misunderstood. It is not a secondary health bar as much as it is a shielding transformation. Simply using DS as a second health bar is a noob technique. The DS transformation is a powerful attack and a shield that prevents damage to the main HP. It also helps with conditions and boons, is pretty much the only gap-closer the job has, and can be used to heal allies or minions. The only wish I have for DS is a shorter CD between activations so I can use it more and not end up hoarding LF.

So, maybe I am just nit-picking but your title reminded me of the way I used to think when I was a noob and did not use DS like it was meant to be. DS is a gap-closer, an attack, and effectively partial invulnerability, not a second health bar. Use it first, not last.

Ichor.9360:

I don’t see a problem with DS functionality or skills. In fact, I’m surprised by how many people complain about having a gap-closer (however reliable), an interrupt, and a strong AoE attack…

Let’s try to stay away from DS redesign in this thread though. I’m more concerned with how people feel about a nerf to our base health pool because of the strong, positive effect Vitality has on our mechanic, and considering it generally isn’t beneficial to stay in DS for more than a few moments anyway (to get skills off/soak damage). Such a nerf would allow us to make our regular HP (not DS) more effective, and allow for spreading more attributes into areas that improve DPS.

What would you suggest we get as a base increase with our base HP nerfed though?

And even if you are using DS for only a few seconds, higher eHP in DS is still stronger, because it means you are able to take far more damage on your DS bar without it bleeding over into your true HP.

Are there substantiated rumors of a nerf to Necro HP? Cutting HP may hurt a little but Necro healing is not the best among professions so I am not sure how much of an effect a nerf would have. Once health drops past half, it is often difficult to get anywhere close to a full heal so, if healing skill is increased a bit, it could make up for a reduction in HP.

Otherwise, I am not overly fond of reduced HP because of Necromancer’s lack of escape mechanisms. Without an exit skill for bad situations (Fear is nowhere near adequate for that and Flesh Worm is unreliable due to limitations), Necromancer is just target. I would give up some HP for an escape skill or Stability, though.

wiazabi.2549:

Nerf down our base hp to that of elementist / mesmer

Buff Death shroud hp thingy

Change death shroud to have more than F1,
F1 Power
F2 Condition
F3 Dmg mitigation
F4 Minion group hug, heals minions untill lifeforce is depleted in a cuddly hug animation.

And Full access to all utility skills while in death shroud for better combat flow.
All minion skills are now instant cast for better combat flow ( minons themself still have their cast time).

Our class mechanic should be fun and encouraged to use not this abomination it currently is.

This idea should be illegal.
It’s too amazing.

I think the real issue Ichor is driving at is necro’s place on a tank-dps scale. We’re obviously more weighted on the tank end of things, meaning that a full zerker necro will still be able to take a few hits compared to say a glass thief or ele, but with significantly less damage. Likewise a full bunker necro will be better at taking burst damage than a bunker thief or ele because of our higher effective health pool.

Anchoku.8142:

Necro healing is not the best among professions

Though your point rings true, all 3 of necro’s basic heals scale 1:1 with heal power.

Ichor.9360:

some sort of tank/support-exclusive build which, by nature, will have piddly DPS

That’s me!

Anchoku.8142:

So, maybe I am just nit-picking but your title reminded me of the way I used to think when I was a noob and did not use DS like it was meant to be. DS is a gap-closer, an attack, and effectively partial invulnerability, not a second health bar. Use it first, not last.

The skills/functionality isn’t what I think is wrong with DS. I understand what it’s there for and how to use it effectively. If you read my previous posts you’ll know that my problem lies in how DS (well, half of it) is a raw increase to our HP while we’re also given the highest base HP.

I also fully understand how health/vitality and LF/DS work synergistically.

So, @Bhawb (and Anchoku and anyone else): A nerf to our base HP is from a standpoint of balancing our profession more. Yes, it would nerf DS since LF pool size is tied to our HP/vitality. But, as it stands, stacking Vitality just becomes too much. Like that guy who posted his 40K HP screenshot – what playstyle does that use? Last-man-standing Necros – while there is a certain novelty in being able to live when the rest of your party wipes – are relatively selfish “support” builds outside Well of Blood. And when you have that much health, I doubt you’re running any precision/crit damage, and maybe not even conditions. AND straight power (like in the Juggermancer and similar builds) with no crit chance (and therefore no on-crit effects) isn’t very wise for our profession given its power scaling. Anyway, back to the point: nerfing our base HP would warrant buffing our attacks and/or scaling for attacks/conditions. This way, we could incorporate Vitality into builds via traits or gear while avoiding overkill. Yes, more Vitality will always be a good thing, but personally, I’d rather have less HP that’s efficient than more raw HP.

Even with a nerf to our base HP, adding Vitality would still be a huge boon to our total eHP. Without adding Vitality to a build after such a nerf, yes, DS wouldn’t be able to soak nearly as much damage. But the current line of thought if you’re trying to squeeze DPS out of your Necro is “I’m a Necro, I have the highest base HP AND DS, I don’t need to add another drop of Vitality.” But seeing as how the devs tied DS to Vitality, and because of how beneficial it is, it seems silly not to invest in any. That’s the whole point of this thread – that our base HP + mechanic creates imbalance.

If base HP is nerfed, for example, we could get siphoning/well traits without feeling like we’re blowing trait points (in terms of attributes) in Blood Magic. This would be because we don’t have that giant pool to begin with, and would have reason to build in Vitality besides how it interacts with DS.

Ichor.9360:

So, @Bhawb (and Anchoku and anyone else): A nerf to our base HP is from a standpoint of balancing our profession more. Yes, it would nerf DS since LF pool size is tied to our HP/vitality. But, as it stands, stacking Vitality just becomes too much. Like that guy who posted his 40K HP screenshot – what playstyle does that use? Last-man-standing Necros – while there is a certain novelty in being able to live when the rest of your party wipes – are relatively selfish “support” builds outside Well of Blood. And when you have that much health, I doubt you’re running any precision/crit damage, and maybe not even conditions. AND straight power (like in the Juggermancer and similar builds) with no crit chance (and therefore no on-crit effects) isn’t very wise for our profession given its power scaling. Anyway, back to the point: nerfing our base HP would warrant buffing our attacks and/or scaling for attacks/conditions. This way, we could incorporate Vitality into builds via traits or gear while avoiding overkill. Yes, more Vitality will always be a good thing, but personally, I’d rather have less HP that’s efficient than more raw HP.

Even with a nerf to our base HP, adding Vitality would still be a huge boon to our total eHP. Without adding Vitality to a build after such a nerf, yes, DS wouldn’t be able to soak nearly as much damage. But the current line of thought if you’re trying to squeeze DPS out of your Necro is “I’m a Necro, I have the highest base HP AND DS, I don’t need to add another drop of Vitality.” But seeing as how the devs tied DS to Vitality, and because of how beneficial it is, it seems silly not to invest in any. That’s the whole point of this thread – that our base HP + mechanic creates imbalance.

If base HP is nerfed, for example, we could get siphoning/well traits without feeling like we’re blowing trait points (in terms of attributes) in Blood Magic. This would be because we don’t have that giant pool to begin with, and would have reason to build in Vitality besides how it interacts with DS.

Stacking Vitality isn’t wrong, if you personally feel it doesn’t bring enough to a team then fine, that can be said of a great many things in this game; but that doesn’t warrant nerfing our HP just because some people use it stupidly.

So, nerf our base HP (which highly nerfs our overall survivability) so we can buff damage, so we just offset it by gearing defensively? That is no different than where we are now, where we can gear offensively because of high natural defense, except that now our base damage is now high, and base survivability low; which completely goes against the profession design.

The point you are trying to make seems to simply be that because of our high HP, people think incorrectly (in your opinion), so get rid of our high HP and people will think “correctly”. Why the heck would I ever want to change the class to make it easier for people who are already playing the class wrong? If they are choosing to do stupid things, let them figure it out themselves, don’t change the class as a whole because they can’t handle it. Your entire argument seems to be based simply around the fact that given high HP, you feel people use it wrong. That isn’t a good enough reason to nerf our HP.

Since Necros have little damage mitigation, except Deathshroud, AND necros are supposed to be the attrition class, shouldn’t Necros have the ability to regain HP AND life force to counter a high DPS burst opponent?

We have (arguably) the best dedicated heals in the game (consume conditions and WoB), life siphoning, and regen. Regen comes from staff/focus 4 (one of which can be traited for very good LF gain, the other comes with it built in), and life siphoning works best with our highest LF generating weapon; daggers.

Bhawb.7408:

So, nerf our base HP (which highly nerfs our overall survivability) so we can buff damage, so we just offset it by gearing defensively? That is no different than where we are now, where we can gear offensively because of high natural defense, except that now our base damage is now high, and base survivability low; which completely goes against the profession design.

You’re right, if you rule out Death Shroud. I believe DS is the built-in survivability our profession was designed to have, and I don’t want to change the profession on such a fundamental level.

Would you agree that there is a point at which we, as Necros, can stack too much Vitality? Where that point is is arbitrary, just that there’s a point at which it does become poor/incorrect play and “thinking stupidly”.

I’ll also agree that this isn’t a problem most of the time, especially for those of us who are skilled (Necro) players. But I keep coming back to spending trait points in Blood Magic. I’m sure those of us who build for DPS would love to get dagger/siphoning/well traits without feeling like they’re losing out so much on precious power/precision/crit damage in a profession whose forums are filled with threads on how Necro feels weak unless you’re running a Zerker or Hybrid with little added survivability. What I’m proposing, yes, would raise our base DPS and lower our base survivability before we trait and gear. But after we do those things, and get our Vitality to any point before it becomes excessive in the context of our individual build, we would have attributes worth of gear/traits to spend elsewhere.

Ichor.9360:

Bhawb.7408:

So, nerf our base HP (which highly nerfs our overall survivability) so we can buff damage, so we just offset it by gearing defensively? That is no different than where we are now, where we can gear offensively because of high natural defense, except that now our base damage is now high, and base survivability low; which completely goes against the profession design.

You’re right, if you rule out Death Shroud. I believe DS is the built-in survivability our profession was designed to have, and I don’t want to change the profession on such a fundamental level.

Would you agree that there is a point at which we, as Necros, can stack too much Vitality? Where that point is is arbitrary, just that there’s a point at which it does become poor/incorrect play and “thinking stupidly”.

I’ll also agree that this isn’t a problem most of the time, especially for those of us who are skilled (Necro) players. But I keep coming back to spending trait points in Blood Magic. I’m sure those of us who build for DPS would love to get dagger/siphoning/well traits without feeling like they’re losing out so much on precious power/precision/crit damage in a profession who’s forums are filled with threads on how Necro feels weak unless you’re running a Zerker or Hybrid with little added survivability. What I’m proposing, yes, would raise our base DPS and lower our base survivability before we trait and gear. But after we do those things, and get our Vitality to any point before it becomes excessive in the context of our individual build, we would have attributes worth of gear/traits to spend elsewhere.

I don’t think our base DPS is low because we have Death Shroud. I think our base DPS is low because we can dedicate all our utility slots (including Heal and Elite) to minions that offer a flat DPS increase regardless of stats, and can trait (in the Power line, no less) to raise that increase another 30%.

And if we don’t use minions?

Ichor.9360:

Would you agree that there is a point at which we, as Necros, can stack too much Vitality? Where that point is is arbitrary, just that there’s a point at which it does become poor/incorrect play and “thinking stupidly”.

I’ll also agree that this isn’t a problem most of the time, especially for those of us who are skilled (Necro) players. But I keep coming back to spending trait points in Blood Magic. I’m sure those of us who build for DPS would love to get dagger/siphoning/well traits without feeling like they’re losing out so much on precious power/precision/crit damage in a profession whose forums are filled with threads on how Necro feels weak unless you’re running a Zerker or Hybrid with little added survivability. What I’m proposing, yes, would raise our base DPS and lower our base survivability before we trait and gear. But after we do those things, and get our Vitality to any point before it becomes excessive in the context of our individual build, we would have attributes worth of gear/traits to spend elsewhere.

On the first point, I would agree that for certain builds, you don’t want tons of vitality because you need other stats. However I don’t think there is a point at which vitality becomes “too much”, so long as it is appropriate for your build.

I think its merely a difference in opinion. I don’t think Necromancers are supposed to have the highest DPS (especially burst), and I don’t agree that ours is lacking. Epidemic is the condition version of 100b (and technically has the highest damage ceiling of any ability in the game, although obviously the conditions to make it happen are exceptional), we have high sustained DPS via daggers, decent “bursts” using terror chains or wells, and minions have high 1v1 damage. Are we close to thief or warrior burst? Of course not, that’s their thing, its what they are good at. We are good at conditions.

We’re in a fine place right now on the DPS front overall, not to say we could use some fixes or slight buffs on that front, but I don’t think the way to do it is by nerfing our base HP to get more base DPS.

Oh, I don’t think Necros should have the highest DPS either, by any means. I enjoy being the profession more geared toward whittling away and outlasting rather than bursting down.

Taking a step back though, does any other profession have their class mechanic tied to one of the primary attributes? Not nearly as much. And it just so happens to be the one that adds to HP, which we have more than anyone else of (besides Warriors). Not to mention that the mechanic itself is another health pool.

So, I maintain that it isn’t fair or balanced how our large base HP + DS acts as a sort of deterrent to going into Blood Magic. And I suppose it being a deterrent is where we disagree. But for me, something isn’t designed correctly when an entire trait line’s worth is reduced by what we’re given by default.

Ichor.9360:

And if we don’t use minions?

We can devote 5 utility slots to a flat DPS increase.

We don’t have to.

But how is that fair, to funnel DPS builds into having to use minions? Why can’t we achieve a satisfying level of DPS with our weapons and traits and gear – like every other profession is able to – without having to devote utilities to it. I’d rather choose utilities for utility (not saying minions don’t have utility) than to supplement lackluster DPS.

Ichor.9360:

But how is that fair, to funnel DPS builds into having to use minions? Why can’t we achieve a satisfying level of DPS with our weapons and traits and gear – like every other profession is able to – without having to devote utilities to it. I’d rather choose utilities for utility (not saying minions don’t have utility) than to supplement lackluster DPS.

Because if we could do that then we’d have totally OP damage output with minions.

Great! Seeing as OP DPS for a MM Necro is plain ol’ P relative to anything else – wouldn’t you agree? It’s not like you’re running a bunch of crit or conditions on top of minions is it?

Ichor.9360:

But how is that fair, to funnel DPS builds into having to use minions? Why can’t we achieve a satisfying level of DPS with our weapons and traits and gear – like every other profession is able to – without having to devote utilities to it. I’d rather choose utilities for utility (not saying minions don’t have utility) than to supplement lackluster DPS.

Because that just isn’t how we are played. Necromancers don’t necessarily cause high DPS, the goal is that we have relatively high DPS. Meaning sure a warrior vs warrior, those warriors are going to have really high DPS. But when a warrior faces a necromancer, they are going to be chilled, crippled, weakened, feared out of their gap closers/bursts, and are going to have significantly lower DPS than they would against pretty much any other class. Now, you can certainly argue about our effectiveness in doing that, but it is plain to see our theme in our weapon skills/utilities: tons of control, with some damage mixed in.

Bhawb.7408:

Because that just isn’t how we are played. Necromancers don’t necessarily cause high DPS, the goal is that we have relatively high DPS. Meaning sure a warrior vs warrior, those warriors are going to have really high DPS. But when a warrior faces a necromancer, they are going to be chilled, crippled, weakened, feared out of their gap closers/bursts, and are going to have significantly lower DPS than they would against pretty much any other class. Now, you can certainly argue about our effectiveness in doing that, but it is plain to see our theme in our weapon skills/utilities: tons of control, with some damage mixed in.

Right. I meant satisfying for us, not on par with other professions’ DPS. Because as of right now I think our physical DPS isn’t where it should be. Mainly because in the current PvP meta where conditions don’t stick to human opponents we’re losing out on a lot of our bite.

Talk to Khalifa and Zombify, they both run very hard hitting power builds, pretty similar to the way thieves are played. Basically speaking, if you can get someone to stand in WoS, they are going to die.

Conditions have their place, and are very strong, even people who use power builds agree, they just think its way more fun to play power :P

I might have to, though I don’t want to stray too far from what’s considered the Necro play style. I like what we stand for too much.

And man do I love conditions. Nothing is better or more fun than epidemic in PvE with full Rabid gear. Stuff literally melts.