Where is this Profession headed?

Where is this Profession headed?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Oldbugga.7029

Oldbugga.7029

I have played this game since the betas and I really adore the necro play mechanics/style/role(??). But I have been offline for a bit with some health issues. I have kept reading the forums to keep up with “developments” for our profession and I am really starting to get confused now (probably normal) with regard to our direction vs changes to our skills vs our relative effectiveness in what I thought was the devs preferred role for us. I the absence of any form of input or guidance from ANet at all I have a couple of questions more directed at our longer term viability.

My simple questions are:
1. What are our real, usable, buildable, viable strengths? I don’t think a bland list of all our skills is valid…I mean what can we realistically fit into viable builds and where are they useful…yes I know we are very situational for many builds.
2. Is ANet trying to “kill us off” in terms of a) viability and/or b) as a profession all together through making us ineffective and/or c) through alienating the necro community to the extent that many of us just leave? When looking at our relativity over the longer term we seem to be approaching some sort of irreleveance/disappointment “threshold” in my view.
3. What is really expected of us as a profession? Does anyone actually have a clear idea of this (including the devs) because I certainly don’t? And I don’t mean the public statements thus far; they are hype and the actions/changes/attention given by the devs DO NOT support those statements.
4. Why do we have to rely on “special contacts” to get some form of dialog with the devs, even through the back door? It seems very clear a lot of our concerns are filtered before getting to those who NEED to see them and/or the devs avoid this forum altogether. Pls avoid the “you are a bunch of ferals” answer because it is cause and effect…disaffected people react to contempt.

I am just trying to get a handle on where we are headed FROM A PLAYER’S perspective. I am not too keen on wasting much more time in the game, even though I DO think it has huge potential despite that potential waning rapidly for this profession.

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Posted by: Balekai.6083

Balekai.6083

1. Mass condition damage, application, proliferation and manipulation. No other class plays with transfering conditions to enemies, turning boons into conditions and conditions into boons like a Necro does. We just don’t strip/remove, but we turn pros into cons and cons into pros. That’s our strength compared to other classes and why we’re not optimal in encounters that don’t have lots of boon/condition play in them. We also suffer from the issues in condition damage as a whole.

2. Anet isn’t trying to kill us off. They’re trying to buff Necro’s strengths but are too fearful to go “all the way.” So they end up nerfing buffs before they even make live to the point where they’re not useful, because they think Necro meta could take over (case in point Signet of Vampirism). I do get a feeling the source of this fear is from some ignorance about Necros in general and looking too much at skills/traits on paper rather than truly testing how they function in game.

3. What they expect is for us to manipulate combat with conditions in addition to being the best attrition class that can just take a pounding on the battlefield without usual forms of damage mitigation. So they say at least. Well Support are the closest thing to Anet’s original vision of Necros in my opinion and all other Necro builds (including Wells) suffer from the limitations of DS mechanics as they stand now.

4. Your guess is as good as mine. Again it really comes down to fear of making Necro OP and Anet not wanting us to mimic other profession features even if they would help “fix” us. I thought by now we would have at least seen some ability to heal base health in DS even if it meant reduced effectiveness. It makes so much sense when it comes to fixing the problem with our attrition, being the transitions in and out of DS hurting more than helping our attrition in many cases. They were really close months ago to allowing regeneration boon to heal in DS, but it seems they dropped that… like so much else.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

1. Like Balekai said, conditions. In every single way we are the best condition class in the game. We can spam nearly every condition in the game, spread them to everyone in a large area. We have by far the strongest and most varied condition removal, as well as almost all the removal including secondary beneficial effects like transferring or extra healing. All of this is usually done AoE as well. Even our power builds have been conditions than many other classes’ condition builds for control.

Basically, we are an AoE condition control class. Our strength is our ability to control our opponents and make them significantly weaker, through mass condition application and some boon removal.

2) Of course ANet doesn’t hate Necromancers. I realize it feels this way, but remember that this is their game. They want every class to be good. The problem is that Necromancers are very different, and they want to keep that difference. They refuse to “buff” us by giving us things that other classes have, because it goes against what we are. That is why we don’t get mass boons like other classes, or dodges and the like.

The problem is, that on the same line a lot of what draws the line between too “weak” and too “strong” is very small. And because our mechanics are so unique, they can’t just use things that are working for others. Every time they try to fix a Necro problem, they basically have to completely invent a new mechanic from scratch. We are really resource heavy to balance, and it has taken its toll. So right now, they prefer to keep us slightly too weak, because that is far more manageable and healthy for their game than if we were too strong.

3. They actually do support those statements. As I’ve said before, I talked to quite a few of the devs in person. I have had drinks with a portion of the PvP team. They do believe what they say in general, but it has to be “PC” (politically correct) when they talk in public.

Anyway, what they want is for us to be a hyper-aggressive sustain class that uses various debuffing mechanics to bring enemies down to our level, and then win through superior abilities to fight the “Necromancer” fight. We slow down people’s actions through control effects like cripple, chill, and fear, we slow their damage output by weakening them, we corrupt their defenses and poison them to slow their sustaining. And all this time that they are being pulled down harder and harder, we are aggressively keeping up a large offensive pressure, forcing CDs and keeping them on the back foot.

It is all about bringing every other class down to our level of strength through a bunch of conditions and mechanics to weaken them, and then winning because we are designed to fight at this level. Realize that we operate in the exact opposite way of almost every other class.

4. I don’t think you realize how hard it is to communicate in general. Not to say that they couldn’t be better, because we should have a little discussion from the devs, but it is really hard to for them. Everything they say needs to be really thought out, because it will be used against them for years. They also can’t respond to a lot because things need to be kept behind closed doors until its ready to go.

Just to show, here is how things work from their side. They work on tons of things behind the scenes. Sometimes things happen and ideas are scrapped, in fact it is very common that in the development process the vast majority of ideas are dropped. This is completely fine and normal. Unless they have made the idea public. Anything said in public is taken to be a promise.

If a dev says “hey, we’re looking into some of the issues of Death Shroud that we’d like to get into next patch”, the public translates it to “we hereby promise to fix every issue that you have with Death Shroud in the next patch. Not only will we fix it, but it will be exactly how you wanted it fixed, and perfectly balanced on day 1.”

Now, let’s say that a Dev really loves Necromancers. So they make a few posts across a few topics just to talk with the community and say some things. People from other classes see this, and start riots in their own forums because ANet is blatantly favoring Necromancers and obviously no dev plays their class and hates them all.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

So what do you end up with? Very, very strict rules on when a dev can post, what they can post about, how they can word their post, and how often they can post. It is politics, completely and totally. Does it suck? Of course, but it is necessary to do when you deal with people.

Basically, this is when they can post: when it is very short, concise, and direct (like when Peter’s responded to Putrid Mark. Its a bug, it will be fixed in an upcoming patch, end of post), when it is in an official way about either specific things or general outlooks, and cannot be responded to directly (blog posts), or when they hold equally open discussions with every single affected community at once. Look at the most recent Dev-led discussion and you’ll see what I mean.

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Posted by: nekretaal.6485

nekretaal.6485

Anet probably has some models that don’t match game experience.

If your model said that lifeforce generation was the same thing as health regeneration, then maybe necromancer needs to have no sustain and underwhelming heals.

Where Do I think the class is headed?

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Posted by: Spoj The Second.7680

Spoj The Second.7680

Into the trashcan.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I would still like to see them come to us a bit more often and give us the reasons behind some controversial changes they make, however. The change has already occurred, so secrecy is no concern in that respect. Even if they say “We made this change because of some other things we are working on”, it still tells us that there is a definite reason and how it (may) relate to balance/fixing our problems.

The recent discussion for the Dec. 10 changes was excellent, especially regarding Weakening Shroud. The discussion clearly gave the devs an idea that they hadn’t had before (weakening the effect, but not nerfing the cooldown), since the idea was brought up at a meeting afterward, then implemented. Even if they had gone ahead with same effect/higher cooldown, at least we know that they were considering more options.

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Posted by: Overkillengine.6084

Overkillengine.6084

Or at the very least we’d get more chances to point out when their data mining and simulations don’t jive up too well with “in practice” results due to factors that may have not been considered initially.

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Posted by: Avigrus.2871

Avigrus.2871

3. They actually do support those statements.

You mean like when they said Necros were starting to feel like blood magic was in a good place?

80 Necro (5), 80 Guard (4), 80 Mesmer (3)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)

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Posted by: Overkillengine.6084

Overkillengine.6084

3. They actually do support those statements.

You mean like when they said Necros were starting to feel like blood magic was in a good place?

Yeah that was a facepalm moment for me too.

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Posted by: Nay of the Ether.8913

Nay of the Ether.8913

This is exactly where our class is going, how we look when we emerge is as up to chance as when you throw stuff in there.

We could go either way, so until some of the biggest upcoming changes are implemented, we can’t say for sure

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

You mean like when they said Necros were starting to feel like blood magic was in a good place?

Starting to feel, key words. People have taken this to mean “Blood Magic is now perfectly balanced”, which it isn’t. They said that they felt Blood Magic – an entire tree – was getting better. Which is true, blood magic as it is now is massively better than it was at launch, in every single way.

Are siphons still bad? Yes. Did they ever state otherwise? No.
Does Blood Magic still need work? Yes. Did they ever state otherwise? No.

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Posted by: Avigrus.2871

Avigrus.2871

You mean like when they said Necros were starting to feel like blood magic was in a good place?

Starting to feel, key words. People have taken this to mean “Blood Magic is now perfectly balanced”, which it isn’t. They said that they felt Blood Magic – an entire tree – was getting better. Which is true, blood magic as it is now is massively better than it was at launch, in every single way.

Are siphons still bad? Yes. Did they ever state otherwise? No.
Does Blood Magic still need work? Yes. Did they ever state otherwise? No.

After the patch i really didn’t notice any discernible difference in the siphons – maybe because i don’t run minion-mancer. If i recall from your podcasts you run minion-mancer?

Any way, no point arguing on this – the traits are rubbish and need to be fixed – i don’t hold out any hope though. I’m on my warrior these days… nice to just dominate people for once and have some of the best escapes and mitigation in the game if things don’t go according to plan.

80 Necro (5), 80 Guard (4), 80 Mesmer (3)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

After the patch i really didn’t notice any discernible difference in the siphons – maybe because i don’t run minion-mancer. If i recall from your podcasts you run minion-mancer?

Siphoning is overall better imo, because of the added scaling and base-buff that they all got. It still isn’t enough. But my point is that Blood Magic isn’t limited to just siphoning; in that same patch they made Transfusion one of the best traits we have, and gave a small (although not enough) buff to Deathly Invigoration.

All of those things together do make the entire tree feel better to me. Did it fix everything? Hell no. But they didn’t say it did.

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Posted by: Overkillengine.6084

Overkillengine.6084

No they just polished the kitten a bit; there is still a horrible and obvious gap in effectiveness between the Blood line and other trait lines.

And this is coming from someone masochistic enough to try to make a primarily Blood and Death based Necro work for nearly 9 months.

Technically, it does work….if you ignore that almost every other spec option works far better.

So the phrase reeks of spin doctoring the profession has very little need for at this time.