Guild Wars 2

Based on the fact that people keep telling I’m wrong, I decided to make a video explaining the reasons why I think the Necro is fine and it actually gained the most from the Revamp.

Let me know what you think.

PvE critter are just big dumb bags of health. I am not saying you are not talented, you may well be, but until the changes go live we cannot say we got the best of the revamp. Afaik PvE critter don’t even purge their conditions so it seems the playing field you are using is a bit skewed in your favor.

The CC change alone makes me feel we got the shaft though.

Your build suggestions were extremely bad. You never run Spiteful Spirit. You just don’t. Run Signet of Suffering on a condi mancer now because that’s going to be your absolute best option. Running Master of corruption is basically asking your foe to kill you faster with no pay off. Don’t run a corruption build you’ll die. Oh and you won’t be able to apply as many conditions as you seem to think. With the changes to barbed precision you actually lose a huge chunk of condition damage. Your best bet with a condition build is going to be signets. You’re pigeonholed into a signet build which really SUCKS!

Power stays the same. But the thing is none of these builds are even remotely competitive. And you provide absolutely nothing with a condition build in PvE, even with epidemic but a build can’t rely on a single skill.

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.
Second 6 condis mean nothing for a lot of builds or they just dodge the cheesy setup.
Third consume condition not only you got a 10 second vulnerability , you got a cooldown increase of 5 seconds on you and transferring them means you have to waste a transfer for one condition.
Fourth they added negative effects on balanced skills just to fit them with the theme that’s just forcing people to trait.
Fifth, nobody felt the corrupt boon poison because we barely had no sustain and our healing skill cleansed the poison. Also corrosive poison cloud has little use in any game mode.
Last but not least we are the only class that have such down side for using skills and they aren’t even remotely OP.

Lily.1935:

Your build suggestions were extremely bad. You never run Spiteful Spirit. You just don’t. Run Signet of Suffering on a condi mancer now because that’s going to be your absolute best option.

Well… you kinda just made my point for me. We don’t REALLY need PoC now, do we?

Lily.1935:

Running Master of corruption is basically asking your foe to kill you faster with no pay off. Don’t run a corruption build you’ll die. Oh and you won’t be able to apply as many conditions as you seem to think. With the changes to barbed precision you actually lose a huge chunk of condition damage. Your best bet with a condition build is going to be signets. You’re pigeonholed into a signet build which really SUCKS!

Yea…. I don’t see that.

I think one of the main problems is we are used to things as they are now and we only know descriptions instead of actually ability scaling, cooldowns, different effects etc etc etc.

Im sure when people get to play with it opinions will change since builds can be tested and things worked with. I am excited about the changes since a lot of things have opened up build wise.

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Tim.6450:

Second 6 condis mean nothing for a lot of builds or they just dodge the cheesy setup.

I know you’re trying to make a point but yea, you dodge my endurance check. All I need to do now is cripple or chill you and then get close to you and I can still apply all those condis. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Tim.6450:

Third consume condition not only you got a 10 second vulnerability , you got a cooldown increase of 5 seconds on you and transferring them means you have to waste a transfer for one condition.

5s increase with a trait that drops the skill to a 20s cooldown. I say it’s a good trade-off but that may just be me.

Tim.6450:

Fourth they added negative effects on balanced skills just to fit them with the theme that’s just forcing people to trait.

I personally don’t have a problem with that unless the traits you need are out of reach and they aren’t.

Tim.6450:

Fifth, nobody felt the corrupt boon poison because we barely had no sustain and our healing skill cleansed the poison. Also corrosive poison cloud has little use in any game mode.

And here I thought was that we endured it because we could just transfer the condis to someone… my bad.

Tim.6450:

Last but not least we are the only class that have such down side for using skills and they aren’t even remotely OP.

Because we are NECROS. That’s what being a Necro is about! Slitting your wrists to make the world bleed!

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Tim.6450:

Second 6 condis mean nothing for a lot of builds or they just dodge the cheesy setup.

I know you’re trying to make a point but yea, you dodge my endurance check. All I need to do now is cripple or chill you and then get close to you and I can still apply all those condis. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

Tim.6450:

Third consume condition not only you got a 10 second vulnerability , you got a cooldown increase of 5 seconds on you and transferring them means you have to waste a transfer for one condition.

5s increase with a trait that drops the skill to a 20s cooldown. I say it’s a good trade-off but that may just be me.

Tim.6450:

Fourth they added negative effects on balanced skills just to fit them with the theme that’s just forcing people to trait.

I personally don’t have a problem with that unless the traits you need are out of reach and they aren’t.

Tim.6450:

Fifth, nobody felt the corrupt boon poison because we barely had no sustain and our healing skill cleansed the poison. Also corrosive poison cloud has little use in any game mode.

And here I thought was that we endured it because we could just transfer the condis to someone… my bad.

Tim.6450:

Last but not least we are the only class that have such down side for using skills and they aren’t even remotely OP.

Because we are NECROS. That’s what being a Necro is about! Slitting your wrists to make the world bleed!

No. We slit the wrists of our enemies and use the very blood they spill against them. You have everything wrong, literally, Everything.

Dirame.8521:

Lily.1935:

Your build suggestions were extremely bad. You never run Spiteful Spirit. You just don’t. Run Signet of Suffering on a condi mancer now because that’s going to be your absolute best option.

Well… you kinda just made my point for me. We don’t REALLY need PoC now, do we?

Lily.1935:

Running Master of corruption is basically asking your foe to kill you faster with no pay off. Don’t run a corruption build you’ll die. Oh and you won’t be able to apply as many conditions as you seem to think. With the changes to barbed precision you actually lose a huge chunk of condition damage. Your best bet with a condition build is going to be signets. You’re pigeonholed into a signet build which really SUCKS!

Yea…. I don’t see that.

No I didn’t. You need to land your signets to get them to trigger and if you’re on your butt the entire time it doesn’t matter. Also information is one of the key ways to win a match. Just by having signets you’re potentially giving your foe 90% of your build’s information before you even engage. This gives them near perfect information on weather or not they want to engage with you. If they’re worth their salt and engage you you’re screwed. If they tease you for a bit and leave or just leave you don’t gain nearly as much information as they do and all your cards are on the table before the encounter ever happens.

The victor is most often the one with the most information. And you’ll be giving away allot of your information for free with potentially no upside.

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

you forgot your own condi duration so it can go to 1 stack of 4 seconds every second hence 2~4.

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

Third consume condition not only you got a 10 second vulnerability , you got a cooldown increase of 5 seconds on you and transferring them means you have to waste a transfer for one condition.

5s increase with a trait that drops the skill to a 20s cooldown. I say it’s a good trade-off but that may just be me.

The thing is that it is our go-to heal because the other options are worse. So you are forcing people to take supbar skills or take that trait and they were trying to get away from it. Also don’t forget that 33% second cooldown reduction is balanced by it’s own extra effect adding a condition.

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

Fifth, nobody felt the corrupt boon poison because we barely had no sustain and our healing skill cleansed the poison. Also corrosive poison cloud has little use in any game mode.

And here I thought was that we endured it because we could just transfer the condis to someone… my bad.

That’s just wasting a perfectly good transfer that could be used for transferring the conditions applied by your enemy.

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

Last but not least we are the only class that have such down side for using skills and they aren’t even remotely OP.

Because we are NECROS. That’s what being a Necro is about! Slitting your wrists to make the world bleed!

That’s just stupid. We get negative effects for mediocre skills. What good is thematics if the class doesn’t function properly?

Dirame.8521:

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

5s increase with a trait that drops the skill to a 20s cooldown. I say it’s a good trade-off but that may just be me.

Actually, you’re wrong…2 seconds of bleed applied every second is the same as 2-4 stacks of bleed. (up to 4 stacks depending on your condi duration + bleed duration stats).

I think it might be just you that thinks it’s a good tradeoff because now, you’re forced to take Master of Corruption if you want to mitigate the 5 second increase in cd (5 secs is a huge deal, especially with a skill that acts as basically your only recovery). This then means that you cannot take either Path of Corruption or Terror, both of which are important in PvP (condi builds).

In addition, the self inflicted vulnerability only lasts 4 seconds. Putrid Mark has a cast time of 3/4 seconds and Deathly Swarm has a cast time of 1/4 seconds (not including after cast time and the fact that Deathly Swarm is a projectile, so it will take even longer to land/easier to dodge). You’re already losing a huge chunk of the condition’s duration by the time it lands (and it can miss EASILY).

If you decide to not transfer the 4 seconds of vulnerability, you have to think of what times you use your healing skill…when you’re under pressure right? Well with the new change, after healing, your enemy will have a 10% easier time bringing you down again (and with the changes to vulnerability, conditions applied to you after you heal will have a 10% increase in damage).

Oh, and if you do decide to take Master of Corruption, your heal goes down to 20 second cooldown, yes; however, now every-time you use a corruption skill (including your heal) you get 2 conditions applied to yourself instead of 1. Sure, you can transfer these conditions, but then you have to remember that you can only transfer a maximum of 3 conditions using your weapon skills (single target). I personally would rather not have 2/3 of my transferring ability wasted on transferring my own conditions. Especially if the transferring tools should be saved for countering the conditions the ENEMY has applied on you rather than YOURSELF.

Basically, the only way around all this is to use the “super awesome cool synergistic” signet build that ANet has made. Isn’t this the opposite of build diversity, in which there are countless viable options and combinations to utilize unique/powerful traits and mechanics? I personally find it ironic that the changes provide us with a cookie-cutter build that has synergy only with itself and not with anything else.

And as Lily has pointed out, necromancer has gained no truly competitive build, which is all we really ever wanted (potential to be meta).

Of course, we all have to wait to see the numbers to truly judge, but from the information we are given so far, necromancer still leaves a LOT to be desired.

Lily.1935:

Dirame.8521:

Lily.1935:

Your build suggestions were extremely bad. You never run Spiteful Spirit. You just don’t. Run Signet of Suffering on a condi mancer now because that’s going to be your absolute best option.

Well… you kinda just made my point for me. We don’t REALLY need PoC now, do we?

Lily.1935:

Running Master of corruption is basically asking your foe to kill you faster with no pay off. Don’t run a corruption build you’ll die. Oh and you won’t be able to apply as many conditions as you seem to think. With the changes to barbed precision you actually lose a huge chunk of condition damage. Your best bet with a condition build is going to be signets. You’re pigeonholed into a signet build which really SUCKS!

Yea…. I don’t see that.

No I didn’t. You need to land your signets to get them to trigger and if you’re on your butt the entire time it doesn’t matter. Also information is one of the key ways to win a match. Just by having signets you’re potentially giving your foe 90% of your build’s information before you even engage. This gives them near perfect information on weather or not they want to engage with you. If they’re worth their salt and engage you you’re screwed. If they tease you for a bit and leave or just leave you don’t gain nearly as much information as they do and all your cards are on the table before the encounter ever happens.

The victor is most often the one with the most information. And you’ll be giving away allot of your information for free with potentially no upside.

Plague Sending: When you have 3 or more conditions on you your next critical hit casts Plague Signet on your target. This trait benefits from the recharge bonus of Signets of Suffering.

You guys can jump on my twitch to chat with me about Necros. I’m streaming some really bad Necro gameplay right now. http://www.twitch.tv/ceimash

Dirame.8521:

Lily.1935:

Dirame.8521:

Lily.1935:

Your build suggestions were extremely bad. You never run Spiteful Spirit. You just don’t. Run Signet of Suffering on a condi mancer now because that’s going to be your absolute best option.

Well… you kinda just made my point for me. We don’t REALLY need PoC now, do we?

Lily.1935:

Running Master of corruption is basically asking your foe to kill you faster with no pay off. Don’t run a corruption build you’ll die. Oh and you won’t be able to apply as many conditions as you seem to think. With the changes to barbed precision you actually lose a huge chunk of condition damage. Your best bet with a condition build is going to be signets. You’re pigeonholed into a signet build which really SUCKS!

Yea…. I don’t see that.

No I didn’t. You need to land your signets to get them to trigger and if you’re on your butt the entire time it doesn’t matter. Also information is one of the key ways to win a match. Just by having signets you’re potentially giving your foe 90% of your build’s information before you even engage. This gives them near perfect information on weather or not they want to engage with you. If they’re worth their salt and engage you you’re screwed. If they tease you for a bit and leave or just leave you don’t gain nearly as much information as they do and all your cards are on the table before the encounter ever happens.

The victor is most often the one with the most information. And you’ll be giving away allot of your information for free with potentially no upside.

Plague Sending: When you have 3 or more conditions on you your next critical hit casts Plague Signet on your target. This trait benefits from the recharge bonus of Signets of Suffering.

It has a 30 second cool down and you can’t always control when its going to trigger.

Lily.1935:

Dirame.8521:

Lily.1935:

Dirame.8521:

Lily.1935:

Your build suggestions were extremely bad. You never run Spiteful Spirit. You just don’t. Run Signet of Suffering on a condi mancer now because that’s going to be your absolute best option.

Well… you kinda just made my point for me. We don’t REALLY need PoC now, do we?

Lily.1935:

Running Master of corruption is basically asking your foe to kill you faster with no pay off. Don’t run a corruption build you’ll die. Oh and you won’t be able to apply as many conditions as you seem to think. With the changes to barbed precision you actually lose a huge chunk of condition damage. Your best bet with a condition build is going to be signets. You’re pigeonholed into a signet build which really SUCKS!

Yea…. I don’t see that.

No I didn’t. You need to land your signets to get them to trigger and if you’re on your butt the entire time it doesn’t matter. Also information is one of the key ways to win a match. Just by having signets you’re potentially giving your foe 90% of your build’s information before you even engage. This gives them near perfect information on weather or not they want to engage with you. If they’re worth their salt and engage you you’re screwed. If they tease you for a bit and leave or just leave you don’t gain nearly as much information as they do and all your cards are on the table before the encounter ever happens.

The victor is most often the one with the most information. And you’ll be giving away allot of your information for free with potentially no upside.

Plague Sending: When you have 3 or more conditions on you your next critical hit casts Plague Signet on your target. This trait benefits from the recharge bonus of Signets of Suffering.

It has a 30 second cool down and you can’t always control when its going to trigger.

But it cant be evaded. Since you need to hit to crit to proc it. Its 100% chance to lose come conditions as long as you have 3 or more every 30s. Also if you have the signet trait it will convert 2 boons and grant you 3 stacks of 15s of might. on a 24s cooldown. Its great protection against condi bombs.

Yes, the trait revamp was decent for necros (though curses could have been better).

However the CC nerf was much bigger to all builds that dont use the corruption trait then you make it out to be. Not counting the trait, that is on average a 20% nerf, which to me it is like nerfing healing signet back to its early, useless days. Because of that i would argue it was actually so big that we overall did get nerfed.

Although I do agree with your statements involving condition necromancer. Not everyone wants to play necromancer as a condition class. As far as your statement about consume conditions. I cannot agree fully with them, yes Necromancer has skills that apply conditions on use where the outcome of the skill outweighs the cost of using it. I.E epidemic as you stated. However on a heal when the soul benefactor is the necromancer, why would the necromancer then kitten himself after healing? Keeping in mind that almost every class in this game will have a way of putting out vuln some better than others. After they wear down your DS and your health pool if you take consume conditions you’ll use it and any decent player will know of these changes to your heal skill. From there they’ll load you up on vuln and absolutely finish you off. The only way I’ve thought of that “might” make this heal work with the changes is if Unholy Martyr takes the conditions you have when you enter Shroud and converts them into LF, and even IF it did work that way…your telling me I have to take an entire line for a Grandmaster trait to make my heal effective?? Other than that you literally have to either take the damage OR you have to blow condi removals which consume conditions WAS one of the necromancers main condition cleansing mechanics. Or transfer conditions. No other class in this game has a mechanic that gimps them like this. Its simply bad game design.

On a power necro if we take it for granted that our condi output is quite low (0), then plague and other corruptions would give us negligible damage with the new scale. The problem with this heal (CC) is that other than being to only one what is worth a kitten to most play styles it gives you vulnerability.

Vulnerability is not in itself a damaging condition but it makes every attack hurt you more (now with the added benefit of making condi’s hurt more too). If it had been for instance bleeds or poison the 4 seconds at a reduced damage rate would be fine for a power user (although the +5 seconds still hurts).

edit: clarity

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

link please?

Tim.6450:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

link please?

I ran numbers earlier and a typical Rabid build in exotic gear would have Plague nuking you for 8,784 damage from your own bleeds. This is not counting any bleed duration or Might outside of Hemophilia, so it can very easily be much higher.

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

apoidea.7095:

In addition, the self inflicted vulnerability only lasts 4 seconds. Putrid Mark has a cast time of 3/4 seconds and Deathly Swarm has a cast time of 1/4 seconds (not including after cast time and the fact that Deathly Swarm is a projectile, so it will take even longer to land/easier to dodge). You’re already losing a huge chunk of the condition’s duration by the time it lands (and it can miss EASILY).

+1
It’s what really annoying me. Why everything has to be kitten?
Do you want to put 10 stacks of vulnerability on our heal? Then why a 4s duration?
It’s long enough that it can kill you but it’s too short to be worth the use of a condition transfer. Make it 10 stacks for 10-12 sec and make our conditions transfers more reliable and accessible. Make changes that open up synergies and meaningful strategies or don’t touch the few shiny we have.

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

HAHA, dude stop. please gain some perspective. so basically you are saying that it’s okay for Necros own skills to kitten them over as long as other players can help them not kitten themselves over? wow….this is why Necros are kittened; myopic reasoning.

Odeezee.7362:

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

HAHA, dude stop. please gain some perspective. so basically you are saying that it’s okay for Necros own skills to kitten them over as long as other players can help them not kitten themselves over? wow….this is why Necros are kittened; myopic reasoning.

Never said anything about it being okay. Just giving a probable solution to the problem. For me the first thing that comes to my mind when something is released isn’t always “BAD DESIGN URRRGH!” It’s first, how do I fix the problem I’m having, and if there are no tools to fix the problem, THEN and ONLY THEN is it bad design but hey, might be myopic reasoning. Really don’t see it that way.

That being said, we’ll see if they listen to you guys or not. I, personally, am okay with the way things are. Unpopular as my thoughts may be.

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

You’re kind of just proving that you don’t understand how the game works. Unless you’re going into plague at 100% health the damage taken is still the same damage taken regardless of mitigation. Saying that its possible to heal that damage back up doesn’t mean jack because you could have been healing up_ other_ damage. I see this mistake made so often. Damage taken has no correlation at all to the marginal utility of healing unless you’re screwing up and overhealing.

You’re also not even considering the fact that plague will now pulse a free cover condition on you, making it much harder for allies to help you if you get immobilized/chilled. There are so many problems with the pulsing bleed that you just aren’t seeing. Take a look at it from the PvE perspective. Players that use it for the stab on jumping puzzles are now just getting thrown into combat immediately and totally kittened over. The list goes on.

Dirame.8521:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IbnhoG-AA

Based on the fact that people keep telling I’m wrong, I decided to make a video explaining the reasons why I think the Necro is fine and it actually gained the most from the Revamp.

Let me know what you think.

Two problems here.
Firstly, making a video doesn’t make you any less wrong. It just makes you wrong in a different format. Not that I’m necessarily saying you’re wrong, of course, just pointing out a flaw.

Secondly, your arguments about the necros’ ability to transfer the CC self-conditions miss a really important point; if the necro is able to transfer the conditions, why are they using CC? It becomes a self-defeating heal. If you need the heal, you have to use up valuable, limited clears and transfers, which should be used for any attacks, just to clear your own self damage, which when traited is going to be two out of each transfer cap. So just to make up for healing yourself, you’ve already lost several valuable tools. A position completely unique to Necro CC which gives no benefit to the player whatsoever.

If you’re using CC because you’re overwhelmed with conditions and can’t transfer them, then you’re still going to be left with at least one condition, two if traited, which you now cannot remove, leaving you just as vulnerable if not more so because now you have two conditions, one of which increases damage, including condition damage, as well as any further conditions that the enemy throws at you. Of course this means that any opponent which gains increased damage output for every condition on a foe already has increased damage against you the moment you heal, on top of the increased damage from your own vulnerability stacks. A situation for which you have zero counterplay.

It also forces the player into one specific build, which is the precise opposite of build diversity, just for the sake of using what is now the class’ basic heal and only condition clearing heal. New necros won’t have access to the traits of course, which means they’re hit for all the penalties with no “synergy”, if any can be found in this ridiculous idea.

As for Plague Elite, it’s now self-defeating to anyone who doesn’t take the one viable build, forcing us to take other elites. Even if you do trait for it, sending your own bleed stack to the enemy will only work once, leaving you vulnerable to the follow bleeds and everything else the enemy throws at you, meaning your only real chance is hoping that at least one of your enemies is below 25%. If they’re not, you’re in for a world of hurt.

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

You’re kind of just proving that you don’t understand how the game works. Unless you’re going into plague at 100% health the damage taken is still the same damage taken regardless of mitigation. Saying that its possible to heal that damage back up doesn’t mean jack because you could have been healing up_ other_ damage. I see this mistake made so often. Damage taken has no correlation at all to the marginal utility of healing unless you’re screwing up and overhealing.

You’re also not even considering the fact that plague will now pulse a free cover condition on you, making it much harder for allies to help you if you get immobilized/chilled. There are so many problems with the pulsing bleed that you just aren’t seeing. Take a look at it from the PvE perspective. Players that use it for the stab on jumping puzzles are now just getting thrown into combat immediately and totally kittened over. The list goes on.

I see your point, really but the damage from the bleed is very minor. Anything that heals you will out heal it. The additional condition is only if you run MoC and really, the reason you run MoC is because you’ve got something else up your sleeve that you can do to counter it’s effects.

And about PvE, plenty of players get through those JPs without Plague. You don’t need Plague for that.

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Linnael.1069:

Dirame.8521:

Tim.6450:

First plague form of bleed and stacks 2~4 bleeds permanent for a total of 40~80 seconds, even with the division through the xtra health you get a nice 2500 damage at least.

Plague: This skill is now considered a corruption skill and applies 1 stack of bleeding for 2 seconds to you every second it is active.

2 seconds of bleed. 1 Stack.

Rather than make ridiculous assumptions someone was kind enough to math it out in another thread.

You will now be nuking yourself for 9k to 14k damage over the course of every plague.

Yup. 2 seconds. 1 stack.

Thats 120 damage (slightly more or slightly less depending on your condi dmg) stretched out over 20s that can be nullified by an Ele standing next to you in Water Attunement or just someone giving you regeneration.

You’re kind of just proving that you don’t understand how the game works. Unless you’re going into plague at 100% health the damage taken is still the same damage taken regardless of mitigation. Saying that its possible to heal that damage back up doesn’t mean jack because you could have been healing up_ other_ damage. I see this mistake made so often. Damage taken has no correlation at all to the marginal utility of healing unless you’re screwing up and overhealing.

You’re also not even considering the fact that plague will now pulse a free cover condition on you, making it much harder for allies to help you if you get immobilized/chilled. There are so many problems with the pulsing bleed that you just aren’t seeing. Take a look at it from the PvE perspective. Players that use it for the stab on jumping puzzles are now just getting thrown into combat immediately and totally kittened over. The list goes on.

I see your point, really but the damage from the bleed is very minor. Anything that heals you will out heal it. The additional condition is only if you run MoC and really, the reason you run MoC is because you’ve got something else up your sleeve that you can do to counter it’s effects.

And about PvE, plenty of players get through those JPs without Plague. You don’t need Plague for that.

Another issue you’re not seeing is you’re getting no internal benefit from this. Consume condition shouldn’t be a corruption or it should replace vulnerability with 2 seconds of Weakness. Although I’d much prefer to have it function exactly as its old version. Much like the rest of the community. The problem with Master of corruptions is you’re weakening yourself without much gain. in fact, if you look at the skill cooldowns of the current corruptions then compare them to their patch cool downs you see that master of corruption is just punishing you to be on par or very slightly shorter cool down than it was before. We as necromancer can’t take advantage of suffering from conditions like the revenant can. We don’t have resistance, we don’t pulse copies of our conditions and our corruption skills are not nearly as strong. The Strength of corruptions has been argued back and forth for a long time now. Weather or not the conditions they apply to the use makes the skill too weak or just on par with other skills. But they’ve never been that great especially compared with other professions. The only two that really stood out were Corrupt Boon and Epidemic. And Epidemic is rather gimmicky while corrupt boon was nerfed almost into uselessness.

Considering how the player base is I don’t expect to have ANY useful condition builds for the necromancer at all. Arena net seems to be back peddling with some of the balance philosophy with this patch and necromancer is being hit the hardest by it. And the signet build I mentioned before? Its not even going to be that good. But it’ll be nerfed. The difference between 1 boon and 2 boons can make or break that build and if it gets nerfed thats the first thing that arena net will go for and it’ll drop off the face of the earth. I’m already worried that the boon application will out preform any conversion we can execute, but if history has taught me anything about necromancer balance. We don’t get to keep any of our toys. We don’t get to be competitive. We don’t get to be included in content.

You want to be competitive? You’re going to have to run power. And with the new environment you’ll always be 2 steps behind everyone else.

wolfyrik.2017:

Dirame.8521:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6IbnhoG-AA

Based on the fact that people keep telling I’m wrong, I decided to make a video explaining the reasons why I think the Necro is fine and it actually gained the most from the Revamp.

Let me know what you think.

Two problems here.
Firstly, making a video doesn’t make you any less wrong. It just makes you wrong in a different format. Not that I’m necessarily saying you’re wrong, of course, just pointing out a flaw.

Secondly, your arguments about the necros’ ability to transfer the CC self-conditions miss a really important point; if the necro is able to transfer the conditions, why are they using CC? It becomes a self-defeating heal. If you need the heal, you have to use up valuable, limited clears and transfers, which should be used for any attacks, just to clear your own self damage, which when traited is going to be two out of each transfer cap. So just to make up for healing yourself, you’ve already lost several valuable tools. A position completely unique to Necro CC which gives no benefit to the player whatsoever.

If you’re using CC because you’re overwhelmed with conditions and can’t transfer them, then you’re still going to be left with at least one condition, two if traited, which you now cannot remove, leaving you just as vulnerable if not more so because now you have two conditions, one of which increases damage, including condition damage, as well as any further conditions that the enemy throws at you. Of course this means that any opponent which gains increased damage output for every condition on a foe already has increased damage against you the moment you heal, on top of the increased damage from your own vulnerability stacks. A situation for which you have zero counterplay.

It also forces the player into one specific build, which is the precise opposite of build diversity, just for the sake of using what is now the class’ basic heal and only condition clearing heal. New necros won’t have access to the traits of course, which means they’re hit for all the penalties with no “synergy”, if any can be found in this ridiculous idea.

As for Plague Elite, it’s now self-defeating to anyone who doesn’t take the one viable build, forcing us to take other elites. Even if you do trait for it, sendinyour own bleed stack to the enemy will only work once, leaving you vulnerability to the follow bleeds and everything else the enemy throws at you, meaning your only real chance is hoping that at least one of your enemies is below 25%. If they’re not, you’re in for a world of hurt.

To your first point, at the end of the video I asked for your thoughts. If that doesn’t mean I’m open to you telling me I’m wrong, then I don’t know what does.

To your second point. My arguments for ConCon are all based around possible builds that we can make. So far, I’ve made about 19 builds, each of them having varying degrees of expected survivability. Just like every other class, the spec that doesn’t take condition removal and some way to juke the enemy or nullify damage will suffer. Basically what I’m saying is, you’re going to have to spec for some survivability if you actually want to be competitive and that survivability will either include condi transfer or condi removal. And in those cases, the vuln will be of little concern.

Every build has to make the choice between dieing fast and killing fast or dieing slow and killing slow. This is just going to be one of those choices.

And to your final point, the damage from your Plague is probably like 0.1% of the damage that’s going to be dealt to you if you’re 2v1 or more. It’s really insignificant in the grand scheme.

The only time the bleed will be your worst enemy is if you were at 100 health and you thought “hey, I’m going to plague right now” even then the plague will give you a boost in health but really, if you’re at that health number, you were going to die anyway.

Condi is completely dead. With more traits, other classes that were previously lacking in condi removal will be able to put up traits to stop this. Zerker necro will never be good. Our skills dont hit hard enough and we lack the survival mechanics needed by zerkers.

So our entire hope lies with blood magic. It needs to be brokenly good in order for necro to be semi viable. There needs to be some sort of hybrid spec with high sustain based around blood magic.

Lily.1935:

Another issue you’re not seeing is you’re getting no internal benefit from this. Consume condition shouldn’t be a corruption or it should replace vulnerability with 2 seconds of Weakness. Although I’d much prefer to have it function exactly as its old version. Much like the rest of the community. The problem with Master of corruptions is you’re weakening yourself without much gain. in fact, if you look at the skill cooldowns of the current corruptions then compare them to their patch cool downs you see that master of corruption is just punishing you to be on par or very slightly shorter cool down than it was before. We as necromancer can’t take advantage of suffering from conditions like the revenant can. We don’t have resistance, we don’t pulse copies of our conditions and our corruption skills are not nearly as strong. The Strength of corruptions has been argued back and forth for a long time now. Weather or not the conditions they apply to the use makes the skill too weak or just on par with other skills. But they’ve never been that great especially compared with other professions. The only two that really stood out were Corrupt Boon and Epidemic. And Epidemic is rather gimmicky while corrupt boon was nerfed almost into uselessness.

Considering how the player base is I don’t expect to have ANY useful condition builds for the necromancer at all. Arena net seems to be back peddling with some of the balance philosophy with this patch and necromancer is being hit the hardest by it. And the signet build I mentioned before? Its not even going to be that good. But it’ll be nerfed. The difference between 1 boon and 2 boons can make or break that build and if it gets nerfed thats the first thing that arena net will go for and it’ll drop off the face of the earth. I’m already worried that the boon application will out preform any conversion we can execute, but if history has taught me anything about necromancer balance. We don’t get to keep any of our toys. We don’t get to be competitive. We don’t get to be included in content.

You want to be competitive? You’re going to have to run power. And with the new environment you’ll always be 2 steps behind everyone else.

We may not be able to pulse the conditions already on us to other people but we can cleanse those conditions by sending them to the person who sent them to us or using what they did to us to kill their friends.

I’ll be doing my part in coming up with viable builds for the class and I’m sure a lot of you will too even if you’re screaming bloody murder right now. I’ll be smiling in my chair when you guys find that OP build of legend.

Dirame.8521:

We may not be able to pulse the conditions already on us to other people but we can cleanse those conditions by sending them to the person who sent them to us or using what they did to us to kill their friends.

I’ll be doing my part in coming up with viable builds for the class and I’m sure a lot of you will too even if you’re screaming bloody murder right now. I’ll be smiling in my chair when you guys find that OP build of legend.

Two problems with that theory of yours. We need to have targets to be able to do that is the first problem. If they’re out of range, you’re SOL. If you’re fighting multiple foes you don’t actually have the tools to send all the incoming conditions back. Even with reaper shouts. This has been one of our problems with conditions for a long time. And the fact that Consume condition was both our best and only way of dealing with all conditions we’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. Its not a win win, its a bad choice faced with a bad choice. You’re better off not touching any corruption skills with the patch. I would even suggest against taking corrupt boon.

Another problem though with the trait signets. You have very little control when they trigger, unlike your actual signets. Which means they might trigger before you actually want them too which is rather bad. And with random conversion you’re leaving allot of it up to chance if it’ll actually convert what you need to remove. Meaning through an entire fight it might never convert Resistance. Or it might convert it every single time. You’re leaving allot of it up to the chance of RNG. Which I’m really not a fan of. And a build that relies on luck isn’t a good build. And the signet build is the best possible condition build we’ll have.

Dirame.8521:

To your first point, at the end of the video I asked for your thoughts. If that doesn’t mean I’m open to you telling me I’m wrong, then I don’t know what does.

Actually you’re kind of missign the point, I don’t doubt that you’re open to the debate, I’m just pointing out that making a video doesn’t make your argument any more valid, which is the implication of your original post. Making a video doesn’t make you less wrong, it just makes you wrong in a different format.

Dirame.8521:

To your second point. My arguments for ConCon are all based around possible builds that we can make. So far, I’ve made about 19 builds, each of them having varying degrees of expected survivability. Just like every other class, the spec that doesn’t take condition removal and some way to juke the enemy or nullify damage will suffer. Basically what I’m saying is, you’re going to have to spec for some survivability if you actually want to be competitive and that survivability will either include condi transfer or condi removal. And in those cases, the vuln will be of little concern.

.

Yes, builds without condition cleanse are a bad idea, that’s not in dispute, what is in dispute is whether a player should be forced to use those cleanses to clear their own conditions, which were applied by a condition cleanse, instead of the ones being applied by opponenets?

A condition cleanse which applies conditions is absurd in the extreme, it becomes a condition swapper, instead of a cleanse. In essense, necro will have to use two cleanses when they’re in trouble, one to clear the conditions on them and the second to clear the conditions they just applied. Aside from the self-contradictory absurdity of the preposition, the class is now taking several actions to do what should have been done with one, for no gains what-so-ever and two cooldowns blown, while granting their opponents increased damage and additional time to take advantage of it while we’re busy cleansing our cleanses.

All the time forcing the necro into specific traitlines and weapons, just to make an arguably average healing skill, baseline again.

And you’re still missing the point that if the necro is in a position where they’re able to transfer and cleanse conditions, using the conditions on them as a weapon, why would they need to use ConCon? It’s a heal for those situations where you need cleanses, presumably because you’re unable to transfer for whatever reason. Having it then apply one or two conditions further means that it takes you back to square one, in trouble, being overwhelmed by conditions. Yes, now you have more health, but that doesn’t make much difference if you’re taking a minimum of 10% more damage and I say minimum because there are plenty of traits and skills which increase damage with conditions on foe. Infact, there are several skills and traits which take advantage of vulnerability specifically! Using this version CC just gives them even more damage against us. It does our opponents a favor!

This would be less of an issue if we had a defence mechanism that scaled in potency with the number of conditions on us. We did have one of course, unfortunately it was Consume Conditions.

wolfyrik.2017:

Yes, builds without condition cleanse are a bad idea, that’s not in dispute, what is in dispute is whether a player should be forced to use those cleanses to clear their own conditions, which were applied by a condition cleanse, instead of the ones being applied by opponenets?

A condition cleanse which applies conditions is absurd in the extreme, it becomes a condition swapper, instead of a cleanse. In essense, necro will have to use two cleanses when they’re in trouble, one to clear the conditions on them and the second to clear the conditions they just applied. Aside from the self-contradictory absurdity of the preposition, the class is now taking several actions to do what should have been done with one, for no gains what-so-ever and two cooldowns blown, while granting their opponents increased damage and additional time to take advantage of it while we’re busy cleansing our cleanses.

All the time forcing the necro into specific traitlines and weapons, just to make an arguably average healing skill, baseline again.

And you’re still missing the point that if the necro is in a position where they’re able to transfer and cleanse conditions, using the conditions on them as a weapon, why would they need to use ConCon? It’s a heal for those situations where you need cleanses, presumably because you’re unable to transfer for whatever reason. Having it then apply one or two conditions further means that it takes you back to square one, in trouble, being overwhelmed by conditions. Yes, now you have more health, but that doesn’t make much difference if you’re taking a minimum of 10% more damage and I say minimum because there are plenty of traits and skills which increase damage with conditions on foe. Infact, there are several skills and traits which take advantage of vulnerability specifically! Using this version CC just gives them even more damage against us. It does our opponents a favor!

This would be less of an issue if we had a defence mechanism that scaled in potency with the number of conditions on us. We did have one of course, unfortunately it was Consume Conditions.

I feel that with the different condi transfers we have, we’ll be passively removing condis and manipulating condis a lot. That’s why it seems like a non-issue to me. Of course they could change it to weakness or drop the vuln count but even if they didn’t, I still think we can handle it.

Dirame.8521:

I feel that with the different condi transfers we have, we’ll be passively removing condis and manipulating condis a lot. That’s why it seems like a non-issue to me. Of course they could change it to weakness or drop the vuln count but even if they didn’t, I still think we can handle it.

The problem is not that we can’t handle it, it’s the fact that we have to handle it or be in a disadvantage situation. It also wouldn’t be bad if consume conditions was a niche heal and it strengthened the niche but it is our go to heal. The other heals still aren’t contenders just because how bad they are.

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t be saying that but I laughed hard watching your video.

> Killing Svanir in HotM
> ‘If that’s all I need to wreck someone, then necro is safe’

XDDDD

or…

> ‘Going into Death Shroud alone you just wrecked someone somewhere, just by pressing the DS button, someone pretty much has died somewhere.’

Kappa
How is anyone going to take you seriously after that?

I mean, please if you want to argue, present some serious arguments, not a troll video.

My argument: I can see some decent build possibilities with the trait changes (spite, corruption, blood magic signet necro) but when I compare the changes to engies, warriors, mesmers and pretty much everyone else, it looks much more dire. We’ll see, but if anything your arguments won’t be the reason necro is good, in the unlikely case it is.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I ran numbers earlier and a typical Rabid build in exotic gear would have Plague nuking you for 8,784 damage from your own bleeds. This is not counting any bleed duration or Might outside of Hemophilia, so it can very easily be much higher.

-“Yeeeaaah, allies, if you could stop killing me with your aoe might that would be greeeaaat. Thanks.”

leman.7682:

I’m sorry, I shouldn’t be saying that but I laughed hard watching your video.

> Killing Svanir in HotM
> ‘If that’s all I need to wreck someone, then necro is safe’

XDDDD

or…

> ‘Going into Death Shroud alone you just wrecked someone somewhere, just by pressing the DS button, someone pretty much has died somewhere.’

Kappa
How is anyone going to take you seriously after that?

I mean, please if you want to argue, present some serious arguments, not a troll video.

Haha, that was me being over-excited and I didn’t want to jump into a match and talk because that would just kill my flow.

leman.7682:

My argument: I can see some decent build possibilities with the trait changes (spite, corruption, blood magic signet necro) but when I compare the changes to engies, warriors, mesmers and pretty much everyone else, it looks much more dire.

Necro is in a better place build variety wise than Engie. Engie can only make the same old builds. Mesmers have more condi removal, Thieves have more healing, Warriors have more damage to their tanky builds. Necros just have many more NEW builds.

leman.7682:

We’ll see, but if anything your arguments won’t be the reason necro is good, in the unlikely case it is.

Let’s see what my arguments are;

- Consume Conditions won’t be much of a problem on builds that also build for condi removal/transfer
- Necro has good build diversity now
- Curses change isn’t that big of a deal since we can just spec for boon conversion elsewhere
- Bleeds from Plague won’t be the thing that kills us in a fight.
- Necro can spite without activating signet of spite.
- Blood Magic line is amazing.

My comments are so broad that, at least one of them will be the reason why the Necro turns out to be good.