Guild Wars 2

I feel after playing the game since launch the biggest problem affecting DS is being locked out of your utility skills. The only thing that comes to mind is that this is a coding issue not a balance one.

With the new bezerker spec for warrior it is clear that enabling a mode and not getting you utility skills is possible. I believe DS should be considered a mode not as right now it more like a transformation skill.

The warrior zerk spec gets to use the benefits of going into zerk mode without the drawback of not having their utility skills.

Now I know it is a bit different b/c we get another life bar with DS but it drains and the only unbalance would be from the utilities that give LF on use. This could be an easy fix of when these skills are used in DS they heal you instead of giving LF or a severely decreased amount of LF generation. The new reaper spec auto attack in RS gives you LF so I do not see the problem with that.

I honestly think that using a class specific mechanic should not come with such a handicap. This should be introduced before HOTs comes out or at least a little while after not a year or 3 later.

I do think being able to see your utility cooldowns but not being able to use them would be a good QOL change. I also think it’d be nice if signet passives worked in shroud. That said, I don’t think you should be able to activate any utility/heal/elite skill in shroud.

Rising Dusk.2408:

That said, I don’t think you should be able to activate any utility/heal/elite skill in shroud.

Why? Would it make necro OP? Would it make them thematically less interesting?

Tim.6450:

Why? Would it make necro OP? Would it make them thematically less interesting?

I actually think it could be made balanced. They would have to tone back a number of the shroud skills to do it, though, and it would honestly feel a lot less impactful as a result. To allow utilities changes the paradigm of DS, which is currently intended to be a transformation with its own life bar that gives you a unique set of skills and nothing else. It’s more like a second weapon swap if you can use your entire bar while it’s active, and I know that’s not what ANet wants.

To directly answer your question, it’s a thematic issue to change it.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Tim.6450:

Why? Would it make necro OP? Would it make them thematically less interesting?

I actually think it could be made balanced. They would have to tone back a number of the shroud skills to do it, though, and it would honestly feel a lot less impactful as a result. To allow utilities changes the paradigm of DS, which is currently intended to be a transformation with its own life bar that gives you a unique set of skills and nothing else. It’s more like a second weapon swap if you can use your entire bar while it’s active, and I know that’s not what ANet wants.

To directly answer your question, it’s a thematic issue to change it.

I personally wish it acted more as a weapon swap and less like a transform. Still have the separate HP pool, but be able to get healed and use your utilities. As for nerfs, life blast might need to get toned down, maybe dark path, but nothing else really on base necro shroud would be that strong as just a weapon set.

Also, in general it needs to be easier to generate life force, but there should be less of it. I like to imagine necros getting a ton more life force generation on all weapon skills, but it being quite a bit easier to eat through a full DS. This would encourage the active, constantly attacking to sustain playstyle the devs are going for. It wouldn’t be a trivial amount of work, but I think the necro class would be more diverse and balanced. Especially across skill levels.

Also, plague sending and chill of death probably need to be looked at. Chill of death alone outclasses the whole focus weapon, and is really the only reason necros can burst at all. Similarly, the auto-proc plague sending is too strong against condi builds, and doesn’t require any active play to land, while being unreliable because the necro has very little control over the proc.

I wonder if I could get Robert Gee’s direct opinion on this

This always comes up and it always eventually leads to not having signet passives in shroud which is a much more crippling feature imo. We will never have active utilities in shroud, I can accept that, but I do agree seeing the cooldowns would be a massive QoL. But I think the most important problem to be addressed first should be signets. I would even go so far as to say, just let us know whether this will ever be a thing or not so I know whether or not to set up a signet build to go with a shroud build or not. Because if it’s never coming that’s something I need to consider when making my builds.

And yes, yes I know I said I’d never be back to the necro forums, but things lately have done a complete 180 degrees, I see that first bitter taste of Hope on the horizon and I want to be part of the new, better necro.

There’s no reason whatsoever for utilities and heals to not work in death shroud.

A warrior can heal in endure pain or berserker stance. A mesmer can heal with distortion up. A ranger can heal with signet of stone, and so can an elementalist with arcane shield (and at one point with mist form).

There is no excuse whatsoever to deny necromancers access to utilities while in death shroud. It’s not like death shroud skills are more powerful than actual weapon skills.

On the same vein, I find it pretty kitten stupid that transformations kill our minions. Please fixt it. Minions are kitten, if anything they need buffs not more limitations

A lot of our class limitations are vestigial, when they nerfed us from closed beta.

I think they need to make utilities usable. It’s a design issue. They would likely have to change some other things for balance purposes, but it goes back to what I always say. Worry about design first, then balance around a good design.

It’s very obvious there are a lot of “old death shroud” philosophies tied to it that should be reconsidered.

Ideally, Shroud would be something that’s less of a total sponge and something you use more frequently. Like reducing the total pool, increasing build-up time (specifically outside of D/Wh+Soul Marks), and you can heal while inside and use your utilities, but at a cost, you’re not able to sit and soak as much at once. More like spurts of defense rather than build and soak, waiting for cooldowns.

Real generalized, obviously, too tired to get into deep detail, but the idea is the Shroud should have better synergy with the class overall and not inhibit team play (in regards to receiving healing). That all said, it would probably be a lot of work at this point to make Shroud feel like a better design without direly risking balance for a while, and I’m not sure many people are totally down with that either. :/

ronpierce.2760:

Real generalized, obviously, too tired to get into deep detail, but the idea is the Shroud should have better synergy with the class overall and not inhibit team play (in regards to receiving healing). That all said, it would probably be a lot of work at this point to make Shroud feel like a better design without direly risking balance for a while, and I’m not sure many people are totally down with that either. :/

Well that’s the big problem. We’re finally getting some balance and decent playability to the class (well a specialization is anyway) and in order to have active utilities in shroud it would require a whole rework of the deathshroud/reapershroud system. And don’t get your hopes up about ever having a heal in shroud. They seem pretty adamant that will never happen and I agree with them to be honest. Even I can see how op it would be (to be clear I am referring only to #6 heal, not other sources). Back to my original point, I don’t think anyone wants to go back to a shelled out class waiting on a rework just to try to get utility functions in shroud. That’s why I stand behind what I said earlier. Visible cooldowns would be enough but signet passives (which are far from op) need to be done. They should have been done 3 years ago lol.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

ronpierce.2760:

Real generalized, obviously, too tired to get into deep detail, but the idea is the Shroud should have better synergy with the class overall and not inhibit team play (in regards to receiving healing). That all said, it would probably be a lot of work at this point to make Shroud feel like a better design without direly risking balance for a while, and I’m not sure many people are totally down with that either. :/

Well that’s the big problem. We’re finally getting some balance and decent playability to the class (well a specialization is anyway) and in order to have active utilities in shroud it would require a whole rework of the deathshroud/reapershroud system. And don’t get your hopes up about ever having a heal in shroud. They seem pretty adamant that will never happen and I agree with them to be honest. Even I can see how op it would be (to be clear I am referring only to #6 heal, not other sources). Back to my original point, I don’t think anyone wants to go back to a shelled out class waiting on a rework just to try to get utility functions in shroud. That’s why I stand behind what I said earlier. Visible cooldowns would be enough but signet passives (which are far from op) need to be done. They should have been done 3 years ago lol.

heal in shroud sure seems kind of op that’s why they make ds interrupt your skills so you can’t cast heal and cover with ds but then again ds is our only defense mechanic, I think there are 2 options 1) make signets pasives work in ds and let us see the cool downs of utilities 2) make new skill from skill 6 to 9 defensive skills or a mix of defense and offence

Would be far far too OP if we had access to Ults while in DS and our heal … healing doesnt work in DS/RS so that’s why the heal is also disabled…However like others have said.. just seeing them for the cooldowns while still locked out to us would be such a huge thing.

Zenith.7301:

There’s no reason whatsoever for utilities and heals to not work in death shroud.

A warrior can heal in endure pain or berserker stance. A mesmer can heal with distortion up. A ranger can heal with signet of stone, and so can an elementalist with arcane shield (and at one point with mist form).

Yes but how long do they last compared to DS and soon to be RS.
And while DS is nothing but meh really.. RS is going to be big and if we had access to ults then it be too OP it really would.

Let me see them and it’s fine until more time is available to the subject.

this conversation is old. Like, years old now. I’ve personally made like, at least 3 threads about this alone. Let alone everyone else. It pops up allot.

We aren’t allowed to use healing skills in DS at a base no matter what, so that is one issue already. We also have a number of utility skills we can’t use in DS, such as spectral, so allowing us to use utilities would be a nightmare functionality wise.

However, seeing utility cooldowns in DS would be a fantastic QOL change.

HardRider.2980:

Would be far far too OP if we had access to Ults while in DS and our heal … healing doesnt work in DS/RS so that’s why the heal is also disabled…However like others have said.. just seeing them for the cooldowns while still locked out to us would be such a huge thing.

the heal will be op but not utilities so for me i bet next necro especialization will be utilities skills and a type of heal or lf regen while in ds

Problem is, half utilities provide life force. Other half does so when traited. I have a feeling that devs don’t want necros to replenish death shroud while in death shroud. As for signets, Signet of undeath provides the same problem

Wintermute.5408:

Problem is, half utilities provide life force. Other half does so when traited. I have a feeling that devs don’t want necros to replenish death shroud while in death shroud. As for signets, Signet of undeath provides the same problem

you can use sw and sa then enter ds the only one not working is signet of undead cause pasive don’t work in ds i still see no problem and again ds is our only defence mechanic

I would settle for seeing the recharge timers of my utilities and heal (though ideally also weapon skills, but I understand the UI issues there) and being able to receive more healing (not from the slotted heal skill) while in shroud.

Seeing timers is just an obvious and helpful QoL improvement.

I think it’d be too much work to do at this point. I was a much bigger fan of this concept back when we were really weak, because mechanically I think this is a really good idea. But at this point we are getting to a point of being strong (at least in PvP/WvW, PvE we’re weak for reasons that wouldn’t be touched by this), and this would put us over the top. Death Shroud currently allows for massive stalling in some situations, and if you were able to not only stall but completely reset fights through things like SoL/Healing skill use, it would be too strong.

That means that DS/RS and all of our utilities would have to be rebalanced to allow this, and I think that’s too much right now. However, seeing the CDs should be done. No one else has to hide their utility CDs like we do.

Honestly, the extreme resistance ANET seems to have to allowing this basic functionality for necromancers, confuses me. With any other profession, if there was this much consensus for this long, the forum balancing would commence. Its not like this is an unreasonable request…to play a whole class…instead of half of one when using our class mechanic. Even if they just made signet passives work in shroud, that would be enough of a bone to satisfy most. So what if the passive life force from Signet of Undeath + vital persistence was enough to negate the passive life force drain. That’s devoting traits and utility slots to only stopping the passive degen. Its not like life force would not still be depleted in every other way still. Its not even like we do better damage in shroud than without. Shroud is only a defensive crutch in its current state anyway.

I have been saying it for a long time and can’t see my opinion changing…utilities in shroud please. At the very least, signet passives in shroud please. Please move signet of undeath to the elite slot and buff it a little while you are at it….i’m sick of transforms and AI as our only choices.

Bhawb.7408:

I think it’d be too much work to do at this point. I was a much bigger fan of this concept back when we were really weak, because mechanically I think this is a really good idea. But at this point we are getting to a point of being strong (at least in PvP/WvW, PvE we’re weak for reasons that wouldn’t be touched by this), and this would put us over the top. Death Shroud currently allows for massive stalling in some situations, and if you were able to not only stall but completely reset fights through things like SoL/Healing skill use, it would be too strong.

That means that DS/RS and all of our utilities would have to be rebalanced to allow this, and I think that’s too much right now. However, seeing the CDs should be done. No one else has to hide their utility CDs like we do.

Not all of our utility would have to be re-balanced. Just spectral skills really. Heals I don’t think should heal. Perhaps recover life force maybe? But you should still be able to sue them. Which could be useful for all of our currently heals in one way or another. Still getting the on hit effect from SoV could make it a really strong heal. Too strong? I’d like to see that first.

You also need to remember my suggestion to have utility skills have a life force cost to be activated while in shroud. Which could balance them as well as provide new utility options as well as let us share a common rune that triggers on resource spending with revenant or thief.

The only build I’ve played as necro that seemed off-kilter not having access to back 5, is running shroud spec. where the majority of time is based there. Otherwise I do agree that it’d be nice to at least see cool downs. There have been many times where I leave shroud only to realize then, that it’s another 5 sec before I can use a well or w/e.

Lily.1935:

You also need to remember my suggestion to have utility skills have a life force cost to be activated while in shroud. Which could balance them as well as provide new utility options as well as let us share a common rune that triggers on resource spending with revenant or thief.

That alone is a huge set of changes to the mechanic overall which will require massive balancing. It is just too much to reasonably expect any time soon.

They can add later a new specialization which can use utility skills in DS form.

Brayzz.6524:

They can add later a new specialization which can use utility skills in DS form.

No that is the worse and horrific case scenario.

Bhawb.7408:

Lily.1935:

You also need to remember my suggestion to have utility skills have a life force cost to be activated while in shroud. Which could balance them as well as provide new utility options as well as let us share a common rune that triggers on resource spending with revenant or thief.

That alone is a huge set of changes to the mechanic overall which will require massive balancing. It is just too much to reasonably expect any time soon.

Death shroud is due for a technical overhaul anyway. Especially if you’ve notice lately the bug that locks you in place when you transform. Noticed it heavily in the beta but since then I’ve noticed it on basic death shroud and also transforms from other professions.