Guild Wars 2

I am finding it more and more irritating that a thief can stomp in stealth , and res, and necros can not do this in DS. Think we need a petition ? Either stop other classes from doing it , or let necros do it in DS.

mashiara.3452:

I am finding it more and more irritating that a thief can stomp in stealth , and res, and necros can not do this in DS. Think we need a petition ? Either stop other classes from doing it , or let necros do it in DS.

Necros can stomp and res in both DS and Plague.

To stomp or res in DS, you have to start the channel and DS at the same time.
The stomp or res in Plague, you just activate plague at any point during the channel.
To that same end, you can also tele stomp using wurm and spectral walk.

So…

AirWick.1769:

I think its stupid you can’t stomp or res while already in deathshroud before even considering a channel. You have to exploit the system by starting both ds and stomp at the same time to achieve this. It is definitely needed for deathshroud.

I don’t think it’s stupid, really. I don’t think it’s an exploit either. It would probably be too strong if there was no thought needed to perform the stomp. Think about the options you have. You could cast Locust Swarm then start the DS stomp so you’re gaining life force as you’re channeling. You can trait for Foot in the Grave, giving you enough stability to secure the stomp. You also have Doom, which can be cast mid-channel to interrupt an enemy trying to CC or DPS you or res the downed. You could even do all three of those things at once, if you wanted. Right now there is a little bit of knowledge and thought required to pull it off, and I think it’s good that it is that way.

Other classes are able to pop stability and stomp….. would not be overpowered for us to stomp in plague.

Because they are transforms, and you can’t do that in a transform.

War and Eng rampage forms says hi to both stomps and res

I find it more annyoing that it is inconsistent. DS and plague are both instant casts and both transformations yet in order to DS stomp you have to hit f and f1 at the same time, while with plague you still can cast plague when you already channeling the stomp.

Actually i would even say that a big problem this game has, is that many mechanics are inconsistent…

Muchacho.2390:

I find it more annyoing that it is inconsistent. DS and plague are both instant casts and both transformations yet in order to DS stomp you have to hit f and f1 at the same time, while with plague you still can cast plague when you already channeling the stomp.

Actually i would even say that a big problem this game has, is that many mechanics are inconsistent…

Elites vs short cooldown class mechanic they aren’t exactly the same. Blowing an elite to stomp or long cooldown utility isn’t the same as a 10 second transform class mechanic. The class mechanic doesn’t offer invulnerability but neither does stability. You could compare it to mist form but that is a utility on a long cooldown. Even distortion is on a long cooldown. A foot in the grave necromancer would be the best stomper in the game. I have no feelings either way just pointing out that it isn’t the same. Though it is possible as been stated just requires timing.

I beleive you can stomp in warrior elite transform, but irk for sure haven’t tried in a while

oZii.2864:

Elites vs short cooldown class mechanic they aren’t exactly the same. Blowing an elite to stomp or long cooldown utility isn’t the same as a 10 second transform class mechanic. The class mechanic doesn’t offer invulnerability but neither does stability. You could compare it to mist form but that is a utility on a long cooldown. Even distortion is on a long cooldown. A foot in the grave necromancer would be the best stomper in the game. I have no feelings either way just pointing out that it isn’t the same. Though it is possible as been stated just requires timing.

You mean its not like Ele and thief have stability on higher total uptime with master+ traits now, its not like you got active multi blocks on under a 30s cooldowns and its not like devs confirmed ages ago that DS stomping right now is a exploit not for its strength, but because you are abusing ping/lag for it (being impossible on private servers you own for example too).

It has nothing to do with balance, its an issue of mechanics.

Andele.1306:

You mean its not like Ele and thief have stability on higher total uptime with master+ traits now, its not like you got active multi blocks on under a 30s cooldowns

lol. What?

First, I would say that thief and ele are completely different from necro with completely different styles of play.

Eles have the lowest base health and armor in the game. They rely on mobility, boons, and frequent heals to stay alive. They have no tanking ability just standing there CC’d, which is why they have more stability access. Necro has the highest base health in the game along with a class mechanic that provides them more health (that can be increased with vitality and points in Soul Reaping), and an instant cast elite that gives them ungodly amounts of health and armor with AoE blind. So all in all, I would say that ele has a greater need for stability because they can’t tank nearly as much damage as a necro can when CC’d. It’s as simple as that. Totally different classes with totally different needs and means of survival. To compare the stability access between the two is quite silly.

Thieves have very little access to stability. It is just delusional to say otherwise. There is a single trait in Acrobatics that literally no one uses, the mesmer steal which thieves have very limited access to, and Dagger Storm, which is 8 seconds of stability on a 90 second CD and nothing to brag about.

Andele.1306:

and its not like devs confirmed ages ago that DS stomping right now is a exploit not for its strength, but because you are abusing ping/lag for it (being impossible on private servers you own for example too).

I would like to see a source for this.

Overall, there is a reason necros don’t have easy access to boons like vigor and stability. If you can’t understand that, then you don’t understand the class.

Andele.1306:

oZii.2864:

Elites vs short cooldown class mechanic they aren’t exactly the same. Blowing an elite to stomp or long cooldown utility isn’t the same as a 10 second transform class mechanic. The class mechanic doesn’t offer invulnerability but neither does stability. You could compare it to mist form but that is a utility on a long cooldown. Even distortion is on a long cooldown. A foot in the grave necromancer would be the best stomper in the game. I have no feelings either way just pointing out that it isn’t the same. Though it is possible as been stated just requires timing.

You mean its not like Ele and thief have stability on higher total uptime with master+ traits now, its not like you got active multi blocks on under a 30s cooldowns and its not like devs confirmed ages ago that DS stomping right now is a exploit not for its strength, but because you are abusing ping/lag for it (being impossible on private servers you own for example too).

Oh hey Andele attempting to argue as usual. Active multi-blocks on less then 30s cds? I’m lost on that one but anyways…

The post I was replying to was in response to comparing DS to elites and utilities. Guess you missed that part but continue as usual…

TakeCare.3182:

Andele.1306:

You mean its not like Ele and thief have stability on higher total uptime with master+ traits now, its not like you got active multi blocks on under a 30s cooldowns

lol. What?

First, I would say that thief and ele are completely different from necro with completely different styles of play.

Eles have the lowest base health and armor in the game. They rely on mobility, boons, and frequent heals to stay alive. They have no tanking ability just standing there CC’d, which is why they have more stability access. Necro has the highest base health in the game along with a class mechanic that provides them more health (that can be increased with vitality and points in Soul Reaping), and an instant cast elite that gives them ungodly amounts of health and armor with AoE blind. So all in all, I would say that ele has a greater need for stability because they can’t tank nearly as much damage as a necro can when CC’d. It’s as simple as that. Totally different classes with totally different needs and means of survival. To compare the stability access between the two is quite silly.

Thieves have very little access to stability. It is just delusional to say otherwise. There is a single trait in Acrobatics that literally no one uses, the mesmer steal which thieves have very limited access to, and Dagger Storm, which is 8 seconds of stability on a 90 second CD and nothing to brag about.

Andele.1306:

and its not like devs confirmed ages ago that DS stomping right now is a exploit not for its strength, but because you are abusing ping/lag for it (being impossible on private servers you own for example too).

I would like to see a source for this.

Overall, there is a reason necros don’t have easy access to boons like vigor and stability. If you can’t understand that, then you don’t understand the class.

Lol you don’t play necro do you… thought so.
On the ele, they are one of the.most active.gameplay you can get here. They take a lot.more skill to survive then most classes do. But there damage.is.second to none.
And on the.thief part yes they.have.little access to stability, still better then necro… and then.you throw in stealth and the ability to disengage,

One class the.runs a cc build.completly shuts necro down f we fit multiple stunn breakers we lose all our utility and in turns makes us practicly usless. Since our weapons are just meh.

Go lv a necro to 80 and play him for a while

alamore.1974:

-snip -

alamore.1974:

Lol you don’t play necro do you… thought so.
On the ele, they are one of the.most active.gameplay you can get here. They take a lot.more skill to survive then most classes do. But there damage.is.second to none.
And on the.thief part yes they.have.little access to stability, still better then necro… and then.you throw in stealth and the ability to disengage,

I am sorry… I’m sorry. There’s so much wrong here.
Surviving with a Necro is, I’d say, as hard as surviving on an ele (and I’m saying that uneasily, because I actually find surviving with staff ele a little easier…. but that’s just me).
-Elementalist is very mobile BECAUSE they have the lowest armor and health out there. The least amount of base armor and vitality out of any of the other 7 classes out there. Which means what? They need to compensate for that somehow. How? Well, I think TakeCare already touched on that.

-Also: Thief does NOT have better access to stability than a Necro. That’s simply not true. Honestly… how can you say something that’s so… not… true? Good luck wasting your elite skill (on a thief) for a bit of stability, I’ll keep my deathshroud.

alamore.1974:

One class the.runs a cc build.completly shuts necro down f we fit multiple stunn breakers we lose all our utility and in turns makes us practicly usless. Since our weapons are just meh.

Go lv a necro to 80 and play him for a while

This, again, isn’t true at all. I have two stun breaks on my Necro and I have no problem with too much CC. Sure, sometimes I mess up and get thrown around, but that’s why I have deathshroud – it soaks it up, then I pick myself up and bring in the pain. Also… a good player wouldn’t allow themselves to be easily caught in a CC train. Warrior skills are pretty telling – you can see an earthsahker coming. You know their rotation and with that, you know when to dodge. Get your facts straight.

P.S. Necro weapons are amazing.

alamore.1974:

Lol you don’t play necro do you… thought so.
Go lv a necro to 80 and play him for a while

On the contrary, I do have a necro (this is my second level 80 necro, in fact), and I used to main necro before I decided to switch to ele. So I know a thing or two. How else would I be aware of very uncommon stomping techniques and largely unused traits like Foot in the Grave?

alamore.1974:

On the ele, they are one of the.most active.gameplay you can get here. They take a lot.more skill to survive then most classes do. But there damage.is.second to none.
And on the.thief part yes they.have.little access to stability, still better then necro… and then.you throw in stealth and the ability to disengage,

Honestly, I think you are generalizing the class too much (I’m inclined to ask if you actually play ele ). An ele’s damage and sustain will depend entirely on the spec. A bunkery ele (what I play) will have very little problems surviving most opponents, but the damage is mediocre and most fights are battles of attrition. However, burst eles will have a lot of trouble with sustain (as you describe), but very nice damage to compensate (how much damage they can actually put out is questionable because of how easy it is to pressure them). Either way, everything I said about the class is still true. My ele has 3k armor and 15k health, but if I am CC’d, I can easily be killed in 4 hits or less. My necro, however, has 2.7k armor and 25k health and 18k DS. If I pop into plague I have 42k health, 5.4k armor, and AoE blind, which effectively serves as immunity to melee attacks (under most circumstances). Needless to say, if you stun a necro and an ele next to one another and start DPSing them, the ele will drop first every time unless the necro is pure glass or the ele is built like a megatank. Ele has a greater need to break those stuns and run away so they can heal their low healthpool.

alamore.1974:

One class the.runs a cc build.completly shuts necro down f we fit multiple stunn breakers we lose all our utility and in turns makes us practicly usless. Since our weapons are just meh.

As someone who also plays an engi, this isn’t entirely true either. Engi has some of the most ridiculous access to CC in the game, but they have next to no condition removal. A necro is one of the most dangerous opponents a CC heavy class like the engineer can fight. Warriors and eles are also very CC-oriented, and I’m inclined to say necro is in a good position to fight those classes as well.

Yes guys, we get it, no one here plays Necro unless they agree with everything you say.

TakeCare.3182:

dumb talk ignoring the context of the reply~

Andele.1306:

and its not like devs confirmed ages ago that DS stomping right now is a exploit not for its strength, but because you are abusing ping/lag for it (being impossible on private servers you own for example too).

I would like to see a source for this.

Overall, there is a reason necros don’t have easy access to boons like vigor and stability. If you can’t understand that, then you don’t understand the class.

First off it doesnt matter, its a point of stomping a opponent, as in already winning the fight against a enemy; it was said that FITG stomps would be the strongest thing in game, i mentioned counterpoints which allow for both stronger and safer stomps like the mentioned and followed up Stab on backstab~

Second even if it does count, you can easily compare the usage of FitG vs DP in the same way as the new stability on revealed attack vs assassins heal or quick pockets (while in all fairness its duration is dumbly short and for a thief speccing into acrobatics should be buffed to 2s base, resulting in 2.6 pre stealth attack, its uptime is on average usage is 4 seconds higher and actually reliable to be triggered as a reactionary stability without sacrifices).

Third the issue of low health in case of eles is traded for 10 more skills, the strongest burst combo in game coupled with healing ability of 5k pre dodge on 10 seconds (and yes i do count aoe/team functionality because thats how balance works). Now i shall not even start on how important reliable protection and free 9 might on a 12s cooldown is, but i will mention stuff like burning retreat (and all other evades), shocking aura, lightning flash, mist form, etc allowing for a much higher survivability rate assuming proper skill. Also that ungodly necro elite gets trumped by tornado which sadly noone uses despite it being a fabulous dps boost, a just as potent aoe blind and freaking both a 600 range launch in its range that can be coupled with knockback projectiles, oh did i also mention its a whirl finisher letting you shoot out flame bolts or wifesteal, thus making it better both in damage and team support but at the cost of a smaller duration (tho again in all fairness, no transformation skill should have a cast time).

As for thief, please compare how many FREE (read as no pre cast/setting up required prior) teleports thief has pre 10 seconds to necro, hell even in the setup needed teleports necro gets trumped with trap, steal, shadow shot, shadow strike, infiltrators strike and infiltrators return.
Then also the simple fact of there being this thing called perma evade thief, which (again assuming basic knowledge and skill in using that build, which isnt much) lets you be invul for 49 out of 60 seconds (more assuming you spam your withdraw on cooldown and dont bother with the double attack pre 4 combos.

Sadly for the red post i cant find the post (and not because im lazy like usual and the thread is sticky/on the first 3 pages, but because the search function doesnt even work on stuff weeks old), tho i do remember it being shorty after a post in which: Ascii, CHIPS, Drarnor Kunoram and Nay of the Ether talked about it possibly being fixed/they improved their net code a year ago, making the ds after pressing f version of the stomp not work because the client registered it properly.

TLDR: derailing the thread with idiot statements like necro can functionally fight a cc warrior/debunk engie or with stuff like pushing the talk about necro not having the basic ui functionality of stomping in DS into profession specific arguments which dont apply to universal rules is dumbs thus please stop.

Andele.1306:

it was said that FITG stomps would be the strongest thing in game, i mentioned counterpoints which allow for both stronger and safer stomps

Using an ele trait like Rock Solid is not a stronger or safer stomp because 1) the stability is lower in duration and doesn’t cover the full 3 second stomp channel 2) the ele is more susceptible to damage during the cast (because they aren’t in DS). Armor of Earth is arguably less strong because, though it does provide protection (eles need it more because of low stats anyway), the ele cannot use Doom to interrupt any potential ressers or DPSers that may come along.

you can easily compare the usage of FitG vs DP in the same way as the new stability on revealed attack vs assassins heal or quick pockets.

If you play an Acrobatics thief that is glassy enough to kill something, you should know how ridiculous it sounds to intentionally reveal to get a stomp. You would be better off stealth stomping.

Third the issue of low health in case of eles is traded for 10 more skills, the strongest burst combo in game

This is truly a gem. Let’s break it down. An ele has 20 skills while most classes only have 10, yes, but that isn’t to compensate for low base stats. Ele has double the amount of skills because each skill is meant to be part of one long chain of skills. To oversimplify it, for every button you push, an ele is pushing 3. It isn’t simply using Burning Speed. It’s using Burning Speed while pressing Lightning Flash and Arcane Wave while also positioning for a Fire Grab. They are not 20 skills of equal effectiveness by any means.

One of the highest bursts an ele can deliver is Earthquake > Lightning Flash (a small 3/4s window to pull off) followed by Air > (Lightning Strike > Ride the Lightning > Arcane Wave > Arcane Blast) (in parenthesis because you push them all at the same time) then Fire > Phoenix. So you push about 9 skills in a 2s window, leaving you with 2 attunements on CD and no utilities. That’s a lot more work and cost than popping Lich Form and using Deathly Claws for the same result.

coupled with healing ability of 5k pre dodge on 10 seconds

No ele is healing for 5k per dodge every 10s. It’s more like a 1.3k heal every time you dodge in Water on a 10s CD. Seeing as how there are 4 attunements and you can’t idle in Water all the time, there is a greater span than 10s between heals. Furthermore, an ele has to trait 30 points into Arcana to even get that trait. It isn’t a class mechanic that every ele has regardless of their spec.

Now i shall not even start on how important reliable protection and free 9 might on a 12s cooldown is, but i will mention stuff like burning retreat, shocking aura… etc

Necro has more access to protection than some classes (see: Spectral Armor, Spectral Wall, Last Grasp, and Ritual of Protection). However, of course, ele does have more protection because, again, eles are inherently squishier than necros. Would it make sense for necros to have higher inherent tanking ability AND equal access to protection? No.

Free might? Blasting in combo fields is part of the whole concept of chaining skills on the ele. It requires some know-how and skill to perform. You can also counter it by interrupting the might stacking or just walking away from the fields. Then the ele has to choose to stack might or attack you. If you’re concerned about glass eles running around using all those brilliant defense mechanisms to live, you shouldn’t be because they either don’t live or they’re being carried by a swarm of people. An ele with any sustain will be sacrificing quite a bit to get that sustain.

Andele.1306:

Also that ungodly necro elite gets trumped by tornado

Yes, Tornado. How could I forget? As you know, it is impossible to stomp in Tornado. Even if you could stomp as a Tornado, Plague is still superior. First, it’s harder to target a Plague than it is a massive Tornado. Second, Tornado pulses every 3s for a total of 4 pulses, whereas Plague pulses every 1s for 20s. Third, Tornado doesn’t exactly pulse an AoE blind. It shoots Dust Devils at foes, which can be avoided unlike Plague’s pulse, and it only shoots two in front of you as opposed to hitting up to 5 players regardless of their position around you. As a form of defense, Plague increases both health and armor while Tornado only increases health. Of course, those increases are scaled so a necro in Plague will still have significantly more health than an ele in Tornado. Either way, they serve different purposes.

please compare how many FREE teleports thief has pre 10 seconds to necro… Then also the simple fact of there being this thing called perma evade thief

And how many of those teleports can be used to stomp a stationary target? One. Shadowstep. A necro can achieve the same effect with wurm and spectral walk, albeit at a greater cost, but we weren’t even talking about teleport stomps anyway. I don’t know what thieves you’re fighting, but no one is out there evading for 30+ seconds. With that said, I find them to be as annoying as you do and I do wish they’d tone it down, but again, it still has no place here as we are talking about stomping, which a thief cannot do while evading.

Sadly for the red post i cant find the post, tho i do remember it

Well, I would definitely be interested in seeing the post. I knew you wouldn’t be able to find it as I couldn’t even with my private eye hat on. xD Either way, I will trust that you saw it. It doesn’t really matter though as you can still stomp in DS. If they ever fix that, then maybe this thread would be worth considering.

TLDR: derailing the thread with idiot statements like necro can functionally fight a cc warrior/debunk engie or with stuff like pushing the talk about necro not having the basic ui functionality of stomping in DS into profession specific arguments which dont apply to universal rules is dumbs thus please stop.

TL;DR: talking about things which you know little about wastes everyone’s time and we’d all be better served if we just tried to have a better understanding of how each class functions differently.

I find it mostly annoying that I cant pick things while in DS. My hand are still there, I can see them! >.>
______
anyways..
I hate that they treat DS as if its this overpowered thing. I get not being able to stomp in plague. you’re a ball of energy afterall. Its like ele stomping in mist. they cant.

but why not DS? …its not like its a few minutes of super strength, you’re still vulnerable to blocks/conditions etc…

Taygus.4571:

but why not DS? …its not like its a few minutes of super strength, you’re still vulnerable to blocks/conditions etc…

Because it has nothing to do with balance.

Hot kitten people, not every single decision in game is about balance. Minions are not absolutely stupid because of balance, transforms don’t affect signets/desummon minions because of balance, there are a lot of things that are the way they are simply because that is how it is.

You can’t stomp while in Deathshroud because it is coded that way, and changing it (gasp) might not be as simple as going to the area where it says Stomp_In_DeathShroud = “false” and changing it to “true”. Hell if coding was that simple they wouldn’t have random bugs.

doesnt mean we cant ask and point out the lack of stomping in ds can be detrimental to our builds.

if we dont ask for something, we certainly wont get. if we do ask..they may…actually.look.into.necros. (hopeful much, probably )

Bhawb.7408:

Taygus.4571:

but why not DS? …its not like its a few minutes of super strength, you’re still vulnerable to blocks/conditions etc…

Because it has nothing to do with balance.

Hot kitten people, not every single decision in game is about balance. Minions are not absolutely stupid because of balance, transforms don’t affect signets/desummon minions because of balance, there are a lot of things that are the way they are simply because that is how it is.

You can’t stomp while in Deathshroud because it is coded that way, and changing it (gasp) might not be as simple as going to the area where it says Stomp_In_DeathShroud = “false” and changing it to “true”. Hell if coding was that simple they wouldn’t have random bugs.

Well if you want to talk about coding, this game is implemented almost completely in C++. There probably using objects, and inheritance, so while Death Shroud probably inherits all of the properties of the general transform class. It would not be that difficult for them to overwrite that. Furthermore, since warrior rampage is allowed to stomp mid transform it might not be the case that all transforms inherit the property that one can not stomp mid transform. This should in no way be a problem of implementation, and any half decent programmer would be able to make this fix.

My personal opinion is that Anet doesn’t have enough of it’s staff dedicated to bug fixes, balancing, and new skills. Living world is, IMO, a waste because most of the content isn’t permanent. I simply don’t think that they spend enough time worrying about these exact type of issues. Anet spends far too much development time on Living World considering the problems this game still faces. They need to take their time to update the actual classes with new skills and weapons, fix the majority of the bugs, and then maybe work on releasing new content. This would give much needed freshness to the classes, and help end the many woes about bugs and QOL issues like this one.

My opinions aside, this could be fixed easily, so it just needs the development time if they want it to happen. I’m not actually experienced with coding on something like games, but considering you don’t need to implement any really fancy pieces of code it shouldn’t be that difficult. As someone who knows C++, making changes like this wouldn’t take that much time. My point is that changing attributes or numbers should be extremely simple and not take that much time the real issue is if Anet wants to or not.

Bhawb.7408:

Taygus.4571:

but why not DS? …its not like its a few minutes of super strength, you’re still vulnerable to blocks/conditions etc…

Because it has nothing to do with balance.

Hot kitten people, not every single decision in game is about balance. Minions are not absolutely stupid because of balance, transforms don’t affect signets/desummon minions because of balance, there are a lot of things that are the way they are simply because that is how it is.

You can’t stomp while in Deathshroud because it is coded that way, and changing it (gasp) might not be as simple as going to the area where it says Stomp_In_DeathShroud = “false” and changing it to “true”. Hell if coding was that simple they wouldn’t have random bugs.

Actually, since its a across the board effect of custom equips all of which need this functionality, it probably is, its just noone cares about it…
I mean the devs clearly dont do any testing, just look at the last release and how pvp signets/runes worked in sanctum sprint/other activities, if ANYONE actually did a little play in it before release, it wouldnt have happened.

oZii.2864:

Muchacho.2390:

I find it more annyoing that it is inconsistent. DS and plague are both instant casts and both transformations yet in order to DS stomp you have to hit f and f1 at the same time, while with plague you still can cast plague when you already channeling the stomp.

Actually i would even say that a big problem this game has, is that many mechanics are inconsistent…

Elites vs short cooldown class mechanic they aren’t exactly the same. Blowing an elite to stomp or long cooldown utility isn’t the same as a 10 second transform class mechanic. The class mechanic doesn’t offer invulnerability but neither does stability. You could compare it to mist form but that is a utility on a long cooldown. Even distortion is on a long cooldown. A foot in the grave necromancer would be the best stomper in the game. I have no feelings either way just pointing out that it isn’t the same. Though it is possible as been stated just requires timing.

Elite or not it doesnt matter. Mechanics should always be consistent and if this does make things to strong nerf the skills…

I mean its the same with corrupting/removing boons, all skills should use the same rules and not like it does currently where corrupt boon/spinal shiver remove boons in an other order then lets say path of corruption or the thieves sword 3….