(edited by RochelleFreeman.5603)
Why do people...
Posting something like this here is like opening pandora’s box xD
However, I do agree that necros don’t deserve all the hate they get.
Posting on the forums is for people who want to get an opinion across. The vast majority of those people are ones who have had bad experiences in game, and thus go to the forums to vent their frustration. Never take what happens on the forums as the overall feel of the actual community in game; there are a lot of Necros out there, and a lot of people that love the class.
Every single class in this game has a bunch of people that complain incessantly, its human nature.
Id say necro is probably the 4th best class in dungeons but everyone hates on them because they arent one of the optimum 3 classes.
Id say necro is probably the 4th best class in dungeons but everyone hates on them because they arent one of the optimum 3 classes.
2nd best, 1 being held by Mesmer for time warp+glamours, with how the dungeons currently work being able to heal a zerker warrior, valkyre ele or any kind of crit/backstab spam thief from 10% to 90% (or from 10% to 35% if not specced for healing) while having perma chill and high blind/weakness upkeep is insane.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Id say necro is probably the 4th best class in dungeons but everyone hates on them because they arent one of the optimum 3 classes.
2nd best, 1 being held by Mesmer for time warp+glamours, with how the dungeons currently work being able to heal a zerker warrior, valkyre ele or any kind of crit/backstab spam thief from 10% to 90% (or from 10% to 35% if not specced for healing) while having perma chill and high blind/weakness upkeep is insane.
Warriors are the best in pve. Guardians are better than necro’s in most dungeons because of utility.
because the entire class is a niche. for the most part what they’re good at is stripping boons and applying conditions. sometimes you don’t need neither of these, especially in dungeons where your best bet is usually to just plow through with pure physical damage
I think we are defiantly more useful than a thief
dragonbrand—
Id say necro is probably the 4th best class in dungeons but everyone hates on them because they arent one of the optimum 3 classes.
2nd best, 1 being held by Mesmer for time warp+glamours, with how the dungeons currently work being able to heal a zerker warrior, valkyre ele or any kind of crit/backstab spam thief from 10% to 90% (or from 10% to 35% if not specced for healing) while having perma chill and high blind/weakness upkeep is insane.
Warriors are the best in pve. Guardians are better than necro’s in most dungeons because of utility.
Warriors bring dps, everything else takes up time or efficiency, but even so a ele can outdamage them in terms of burst and a thief does better sustained damage, its a hybrid of the 2 + on demand immunity with quickness that makes warriors good in pve, but if you actually ask any better warrior youll quickly discover that their worth isnt that high.
Guardians give a good amount of boons, true, but outside of aeigs spam and the defensive tome there is little they can continously do, with their healing being outdone by ele, ranger, necro and engie while warriors can tank just as much as them while still being stronger in terms of dps.
Both classes efficiency is way lower than a necros.
List would be: Mesmer, Necro, Ele, Warrior, Ranger, Engie, Guardian, Thief.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Id say necro is probably the 4th best class in dungeons but everyone hates on them because they arent one of the optimum 3 classes.
2nd best, 1 being held by Mesmer for time warp+glamours, with how the dungeons currently work being able to heal a zerker warrior, valkyre ele or any kind of crit/backstab spam thief from 10% to 90% (or from 10% to 35% if not specced for healing) while having perma chill and high blind/weakness upkeep is insane.
Warriors are the best in pve. Guardians are better than necro’s in most dungeons because of utility.
Warriors bring dps, everything else takes up time or efficiency, but even so a ele can outdamage them in terms of burst and a thief does better sustained damage, its a hybrid of the 2 + on demand immunity with quickness that makes warriors good in pve, but if you actually ask any better warrior youll quickly discover that their worth isnt that high.
Guardians give a good amount of boons, true, but outside of aeigs spam and the defensive tome there is little they can continously do, with their healing being outdone by ele, ranger, necro and engie while warriors can tank just as much as them while still being stronger in terms of dps.
Both classes efficiency is way lower than a necros.
List would be: Mesmer, Necro, Ele, Warrior, Ranger, Engie, Guardian, Thief.
By your idea of guardians then i dont think you how to do any high level dungeons properly. Guardians provide huge amounts of reflect and projectile absorption. Stability, condition removal, sustained heals, and an anchor to take aggro or res people safely. Warriors out burst and outsustain damage both theives and eles in dungeons. Mesmers are very good for utility but are weak to conditions so they can be quite vulnerable in high level fractals unless you have good guardians to keep them alive. So imo guardians are probably second, mesmers third, warriors first. Because dps is that important to do dungeons effectively. The faster you kill a boss the less time you have to spend avoiding damage.
I honestly, don’t feel the hate isn’t unjustified. The way PVE is set up, its really the most efficient thing to just plow through everything with raw damage.
Condition manipulation is really more of a novelty in dungeons more than anything. To be frank, its more efficient to clear them out right rather than trying to get people to stack on one point (which will get people killed more often than not) so you can use Putrid Mark. The cool downs on our condition manipulation skills are also rather long for them to be used very often to the groups benefit. Every class has at least one way of removing conditions on themselves. If you bring a guardian, conditions on the party aren’t even a factor.
There is also the condition cap to consider. Raw damage is always useful no matter what the circumstance is, but you get two people who apply conditions in a single dungeon and those two peoples DPS is literally cut in half. The 25 stack cap on bleeds plus the way poison and burning stack duration instead of intensity, you’re handicapping yourself with more than 1 condition build. The necromancers direct damage doesn’t even come close to that of a thief or warriors, so why even bring a necromancer for that role? There are even some bosses (namely in CoE) that actively clears their conditions, nullifying the entire class completely if they’re traited that way. Going direct damage, you don’t even have to worry about this possibility when joining a random group, and necros are only mediocre at direct damage. Not bad, but not great, either.
This is why people hate on necromancers. Its all from an efficiency and utility stand point. Is the hate really unjustified when you compare necromancers to what other classes bring to a group? I personally don’t think it is. When I do dungeons on another class, I notice that the dungeon run does indeed go noticeably slower, and they’re not really doing anything or bringing anything that can’t be better serviced by another class in that role.
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(edited by Kravick.4906)
I honestly, don’t feel the hate isn’t unjustified. The way PVE is set up, its really the most efficient thing to just plow through everything with raw damage.
Condition manipulation is really more of a novelty in dungeons more than anything. To be frank, its more efficient to clear them out right rather than trying to get people to stack on one point (which will get people killed more often than not) so you can use Putrid Mark. The cool downs on our condition manipulation skills are also rather long for them to be used very often to the groups benefit. Every class has at least one way of removing conditions on themselves. If you bring a guardian, conditions on the party aren’t even a factor.
There is also the condition cap to consider. Raw damage is always useful no matter what the circumstance is, but you get two people who apply conditions in a single dungeon and those two peoples DPS is literally cut in half. The 25 stack cap on bleeds plus the way poison and burning stack duration instead of intensity, you’re handicapping yourself with more than 1 condition build. The necromancers direct damage doesn’t even come close to that of a thief or warriors, so why even bring a necromancer for that role? There are even some bosses (namely in CoE) that actively clears their conditions, nullifying the entire class completely if they’re traited that way. Going direct damage, you don’t even have to worry about this possibility when joining a random group, and necros are only mediocre at direct damage. Not bad, but not great, either.
This is why people hate on necromancers. Its all from an efficiency and utility stand point, and is really not all that unjustified if you compare them to what other classes bring to a group.
All true but a zerker necro actually does more damage than most classes except warriors and thieves. And boon stripping is very useful on some bosses so it gives them that edge over the other non tier 1 classes. But as you said from a dps stand point they arent optimal and mesmers can boon strip pretty well aswell as providing the group with timewarp. So its kind of just how it goes seeing as efficiency is very important in high skilled dungeon running.
All true but a zerker necro actually does more damage than most classes except warriors and thieves. And boon stripping is very useful on some bosses so it gives them that edge over the other non tier 1 classes. But as you said from a dps stand point they arent optimal and mesmers can boon strip pretty well aswell as providing the group with timewarp. So its kind of just how it goes seeing as efficiency is very important in high skilled dungeon running.
Boon stripping isn’t really an issue in PvE. You can still brute force your way through protection with an extra warrior or thief easier than bringing someone dedicated to the task of removing it. Even then, you’ll find maybe one boss in the entire dungeon that will have boons that you might want to consider having them stripped. Its really not worth it from that same efficiency standpoint. Or just bring a mesmer, like you said, so you can have your cake and eat it too.
In PVP thats a different story entirely, but even still, the classes with boons you want stripped will just reapply those boons faster than we can strip them. This is because they either have passives or more active skills to grant those boons, at much shorter cool downs, than we have at removing them.
Stuff goes here.
(edited by Kravick.4906)
All true but a zerker necro actually does more damage than most classes except warriors and thieves. And boon stripping is very useful on some bosses so it gives them that edge over the other non tier 1 classes. But as you said from a dps stand point they arent optimal and mesmers can boon strip pretty well aswell as providing the group with timewarp. So its kind of just how it goes seeing as efficiency is very important in high skilled dungeon running.
Boon stripping isn’t really an issue in PvE. You can still brute force your way through protection with an extra warrior or thief easier than bringing someone dedicated to the task of removing it. Even then, you’ll find maybe one boss in the entire dungeon that will have boons that you might want to consider having them stripped. Its really not worth it from that same efficiency standpoint. Or just bring a mesmer, like you said, so you can have your cake and eat it too.
In PVP thats a different story entirely, but even still, the classes with boons you want stripped will just reapply those boons faster than we can strip them. This is because they either have passives or more active skills to grant those boons, at much shorter cool downs, than we have at removing them.
Yes exactly, its not worth taking a boon strip class if you lose out on other more important utility or dps. This is why id like to see boss mechanics improved and providing more niche roles for other classes so they all have a certain dungeon where they can be part of the optimum group.
For example if they changed one of the dungeons to have huge amounts of boons on mobs and bosses then a necro would be a great choice. Or maybe some mechanics which prevent brute force from being that effective, allowing conditions to come out on top. This would open up the choices of most efficient team compositions for different dungeons. Which is lacking atm.
All true but a zerker necro actually does more damage than most classes except warriors and thieves. And boon stripping is very useful on some bosses so it gives them that edge over the other non tier 1 classes. But as you said from a dps stand point they arent optimal and mesmers can boon strip pretty well aswell as providing the group with timewarp. So its kind of just how it goes seeing as efficiency is very important in high skilled dungeon running.
Boon stripping isn’t really an issue in PvE. You can still brute force your way through protection with an extra warrior or thief easier than bringing someone dedicated to the task of removing it. Even then, you’ll find maybe one boss in the entire dungeon that will have boons that you might want to consider having them stripped. Its really not worth it from that same efficiency standpoint. Or just bring a mesmer, like you said, so you can have your cake and eat it too.
In PVP thats a different story entirely, but even still, the classes with boons you want stripped will just reapply those boons faster than we can strip them. This is because they either have passives or more active skills to grant those boons, at much shorter cool downs, than we have at removing them.
Yes exactly, its not worth taking a boon strip class if you lose out on other more important utility or dps. This is why id like to see boss mechanics improved and providing more niche roles for other classes so they all have a certain dungeon where they can be part of the optimum group.
For example if they changed one of the dungeons to have huge amounts of boons on mobs and bosses then a necro would be a great choice. Or maybe some mechanics which prevent brute force from being that effective, allowing conditions to come out on top. This would open up the choices of most efficient team compositions for different dungeons. Which is lacking atm.
This. excellent post!!
Realistically, the Mesmer and Elementalist are a better choice for dungeons than the Necro.. i would like to see that changed, but it doesn’t necessarily need to involve sweeping changes to the class.
80 Necro (5), 80 Guard (4), 80 Mesmer (3)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)
80 Ranger (3), 80 Warrior (3), 80 Thief (3)
80 Ele (2), 80 Engi (3), 80 Rev (2)
By your idea of guardians then i dont think you how to do any high level dungeons properly. Guardians provide huge amounts of reflect and projectile absorption. Stability, condition removal, sustained heals, and an anchor to take aggro or res people safely. Warriors out burst and outsustain damage both theives and eles in dungeons. Mesmers are very good for utility but are weak to conditions so they can be quite vulnerable in high level fractals unless you have good guardians to keep them alive. So imo guardians are probably second, mesmers third, warriors first. Because dps is that important to do dungeons effectively. The faster you kill a boss the less time you have to spend avoiding damage.
If you would have played any of the true old mmos (aka MUDs) you would know efficiency > single strength and that DPS means kitten all if you die before you can do it.
The difference between a guardian and a mesmer in a group is that the mesmer has 40% more effective hp with that he can work with on base (that is flipped if the mesmer goes the standard knights cleric combo every fractal guardian should run with 10 in valor and virtues and 15 in honor and radiance).
Guardian heals are over time what has a net lower worth in dungeons because mobs dont have sustained small hit attacks but high damage burst hits, their projectile reflection is weaker than both the mesmers (having up to 7 ways to both protect and reflect not just destroy projectiles in selective aoes) and even the thiefs (smoke screen in itself as a smoke field is worth more than both the retaliation and the healing bubble guardians have). Still guardians selling points are aegis spam (being one of the top damage migration ways) and shouts (and maybe the bow heal that is about as good as the necro transfusion invigoration combo).
A valkyre ele does a 65~70k burst on a legendary in 10 seconds, warriors do 10~15k with 100b rotations in 5 seconds. now tell me which one is higher?
A full zerker backstab thief holds a dps of 5-6k, warriors get to 4k (again boss/legendary standard)
The selling points of warriors for dungeons are banners, highest base defensive stats and their boon uptime, not the sheer damage.
All condition damage in fractals can be dodged (and in most cases must be) or have a mechanic of avoidance (rp running in grawl fractal, control stacking in snow, actual communication in naked blue man golem group and swamp, etc) Also necros and engies have better aoe condition control (including cases of conditions on a ally) with higher uptime than guardians… Hell just Plague signet/Elixir gun takes care of what all consecrations together could.
If you wanna to the efficient dungeon run thing, Necromancers in dungeons should either be rampagers (full hybrid glass cannons) or soldier knights/any kind of precision that brings it to 10% since the points give a high amount of damage return) and their worth is and always will be permachill, epidemic, timed burst heals and high blind/weakness uptime (boon stripping being a kinda neat addition you can swap a utility on both mesmers and necros). Also being the only class that can run 50 and higher jade maw and survive without using the downed exploit via death shroud.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
I don’t even know if a shred of what Andele said is true, but kitten is it convincing.
I don’t even know if a shred of what Andele said is true, but kitten is it convincing.
The real tricks to convince people that play the other classes whether its true or not.
Stuff goes here.
Frankly I find Necromancers think their class is worse than anyone else thinks we are, I don’t see it being very hard to convince anyone except maybe those annoying “0nly berzerk warr, p1ng gear speed run for pros onli” people.
I don’t even know if a shred of what Andele said is true, but kitten is it convincing.
You can look up everything i mentioned on youtube videos of long term GW players/general mmo guys like Woodenpotatoes, Dontain, GuildWarsBuddy, MattVisual, etc.
I did kinda downplay the worth of a good Shout guardian and Maxe/Shield & Hammer warrior in fractals, but thats pretty much because its a build specific thing, like saying necros, rangers (ok kinda true here because a-net still wont let me stow pets in combat making jade maw more rng than skill and gear if you wanna speed run it), mesmers and engies cannot run fractals because their summons/pets get in the way and sometimes tend to cause more damage to the team than they do the entire fight.
Btw i have played and leveled each profession at least to level 40 (be it beta or right now) and have 3 fully build and setup characters in terms of personal expirience and about 30 runs worth of 20+ fractals with different setups (3 of them being 30+ despite not having the agony to technically do them, yay for ds and soul marks abuse) and god knows how many dungeon runs of AC and CoF, quite the TA and SE runs and some CM and CoE ones in terms of pugging viability.
Last note, the order of efficiency is in no way representative of the skill worth pre player on class and since most dungeon mechanics aint based on something class specific/you can control by facerolling on keyboard, the best GW2 thief in the world would be worth kitten on a necro if he didnt know and/or have a good feel how to play the class and have fun/be interested in doing so.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Warrior can hit 30k with hundred blades and 15k with whirlwind. Then switch to axe + mace and keep high sustained dps until 100b is back off cooldown with fast hands. Guardians reflect and projectile absorption can be much more useful than the mesmers in some situations. For example the grawl fractal, a guardian uses wall of reflection when the elementals spawn, the group stand behind the wall and the elementals kill themselves. The guardian can also use the spirit shield to provide the group with another safe spot from the elementals and he can use binding blades to pull the elementals together so they can be aoe or cleaved down quickly.
Feedback just doesnt work as well seeing as you have to place it on a target and when you put it on the grawl boss it doesnt reflect his arrows because its too low down. Mesmers are mostly picked in dungeons for timewarp to increase dps, but they also provide the group with a little extra utility (which often isnt needed). Also guardians dont need a high hp pool if you use a set of knights armour. The toughness is more than enough to absorb most boss attacks and survive. I play both a mesmer and a guardian in high level dungeons on a regular basis. I think i know what im talking about. And your point about other mmo’s. Gw2 isnt one of those other mmo’s so thats a completely irrelevant point.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Just like to mention feedback also doesnt work on all projectiles. It seems to fail on Old tom’s poison projectiles in the harpy fractal and it doesnt stop the boons from reaching the golem in CoE. Whereas the guardians spirit shield works amazingly on both and the wall works on the boon golem aswell.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Warrior can hit 30k with hundred blades and 15k with whirlwind. Then switch to axe + mace and keep high sustained dps until 100b is back off cooldown with fast hands. Guardians reflect and projectile absorption can be much more useful than the mesmers in some situations. For example the grawl fractal, a guardian uses wall of reflection when the elementals spawn, the group stand behind the wall and the elementals kill themselves. The guardian can also use the spirit shield to provide the group with another safe spot from the elementals and he can use binding blades to pull the elementals together so they can be aoe or cleaved down quickly.
Feedback just doesnt work as well seeing as you have to place it on a target and when you put it on the grawl boss it doesnt reflect his arrows because its too low down. Mesmers are mostly picked in dungeons for timewarp to increase dps, but they also provide the group with a little extra utility (which often isnt needed). Also guardians dont need a high hp pool if you use a set of knights armour. The toughness is more than enough to absorb most boss attacks and survive. I play both a mesmer and a guardian in high level dungeons on a regular basis. I think i know what im talking about. And your point about other mmo’s. Gw2 isnt one of those other mmo’s so thats a completely irrelevant point.
Just like to mention feedback also doesnt work on all projectiles. It seems to fail on Old tom’s poison projectiles in the harpy fractal and it doesnt stop the boons from reaching the golem in CoE. Whereas the guardians spirit shield works amazingly on both and the wall works on the boon golem aswell.
a) Warrior without ranged weapon in fractals? Fail… (and if you wanna go trollish all melee sword/axe does more damage)
b) Full exotic 25 might all crit whirlwind is 9.3k (you can exploit chilled, cripple, immobilize and walls to get more procs off, but most bosses give you 2 procs, 3-4 if you go with the likes of lupi, ice ele, mining suit increasing the damage to around 11k or the amount you mentioned but for that you have to whirlwind from behind into the way the boss is running). So no even in a optimal situation you cannot have a guaranteed 15k burst from whirl.
c) Temporal Curtain, Mimic (single target, but it acts as a mini barrier letting you reflect back even homing projectiles that locked onto other people after you ate 1 projectile to shoot back), Phantasmal Warden, Shattering and if you really wanna go in deep activating signets all reflect projectiles. Also Curtain can pull all said grubs in grawl fractal together letting the necro well transfer kill them (or plague tank if someone is downed). Feedback on high projectiles got fixed a while ago (thats why i got sad on the Lich form post when i mentioned that you could use liches elevated projectile launch to avoid feedback bubbles).
d) So? Thats what i said guardians do get more effective hp when geared… i dont get what you ment with that point so moving on…
e) Every mmo… no, every game with dungeons and bosses works that way, point stands valid and dont start going with the kitten about “gw2 is the evolution of mmos” its still the same old thing only with a better combat and quest system, hell BoC had a better storyline than GW2 (sad, but true)
f) Old Toms poison cannot be technically reflected by direct skills (that applies to the guardian bubbles too), but all skills that technically destroy projectiles (Warden and Mimic) still do, so your point is just as true as it is pointless.
For Mark TotalBiscuit whatever numbers it is after it golem, you can just destroy the boon generators if they are a problem just as with the shaman in HotW… In fact its much easier because you dont have to worry about someone popping skills so that you dont hit yourself on the enemy for 3k pre chain of attacks.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
(edited by Andele.1306)
I don’t even know if a shred of what Andele said is true, but kitten is it convincing.
Frankly I find Necromancers think their class is worse than anyone else thinks we are, I don’t see it being very hard to convince anyone except maybe those annoying “0nly berzerk warr, p1ng gear speed run for pros onli” people.
Not only is he right, it’s always been the problem with necromancer. We aren’t necessarily bad at anything, it’s just specific specs of specific professions can do whatever we do better. Necromancer has the capability to pull off petty much anything we want with a few trait/weapon changes (that’s why I love them), but the only thing we (arguably) do better than the others is condition damage. Compare that to other professions where you get called stupid if you try to use certain skills, traits, or weapons. Necromancers are good, but Warriors/Guardians/Mesmers are better at certain specific functions
So when a necromancer gets discouraged because they see a Mesmer do crazy support better than them, they think their class is terrible. But take that Mesmer and go do an even that requires quick applications of AOE, or heck, see who wins a footrace to get to the event in the first place. You start to realize your class isn’t so bad after all.
Thy faithful servant asketh for thy blessing. Honor us with the splendor of thy song.
Protect us… Holy Song!
Protect us… Holy Song!
(edited by Ramiah.5648)
@Andele
Temporal curtain reflect only reflects low down projectiles or if you stand right next to it and the projectile arcs downwards. Its far from reliable. All the mesmer reflects are good but none of them are completely reliable. Feedback is by far their best reflect but it seems to bug on a few things which is unfortunate.
I was just pointing out that you dont know what your talking about because your idea of warrior damage is way off along with your obvious lack of knowledge with the guardian. Yes you only get whirlwind to hit 15k if its againt a wall but thats something the mesmer can be used for. Using temporal curtain to pull the mobs against a wall. My guildmates have repeatedly hit 15k on whirlwind when fighting against a wall which is almost every fight. Seeing as its the best way to burst down groups and bosses. How can you have done so many dungeons and not know that? I expect you will say you dont bother with los aswell….
You say gw2 is just like every other mmo but you also say efficiency > dps. Funnily enough in gw2 dps is efficient. You can go pretty much full dps on every member of the group. Mesmer and warriors all go full bezerker and guardian goes knights mixed with cavaliers and bezerker(which is still pretty good dps). The only points where things need to get changed are on some parts of some fractals at the higher tiers. But in an organised group even that is not necessary.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Temporal curtain reflect only reflects low down projectiles or if you stand right next to it and the projectile arcs downwards. Its far from reliable. All the mesmer reflects are good but none of them are completely reliable. Feedback is by far their best reflect but it seems to bug on a few things which is unfortunate.
I was just pointing out that you dont know what your talking about because your idea of warrior damage is way off along with your obvious lack of knowledge with the guardian. Yes you only get whirlwind to hit 15 if its againt a wall but thats something the mesmer can be used for. Using temporal curtain to pull the mobs against a wall. My guildmates have repeatedly hit 15k on whirlwind when fighting against a wall which is almost every fight. Seeing as its the best way to burst down groups and bosses. How can you have done so many dungeons and not know that? I expect you will say you dont bother with los aswell….
TC reflects eveything going to you when you stand behind it thats all i care about.
Now tell me how will you get a boss like the flame legion tribune, husk, experimental subject, most Arah bosses and everything that is stationary to stick to a wall so that you dont just slide trough them doing half of the damage you expect?
Not that its not a good trick (and goldy if you somehow manage to get yourself immobilized on the enemy during it), but you cannot cound it as a reliable form of damage (no matter if you wanna count it as burst or sustained, if it relies on dodgy mechanics exploitation its not reliable).
And actually no i dont bother with Line of sight outside of random spvp matches because good positioning, dodge, death shroud and actual fight setups allow you not to care (not to say i wont go behind a pillar to finish a longer cast like Signet of Undeath/rez someone/drop lock on, its just using it when you can do it the way the dungeon is supposed to be run and losing less efficiency is pointless).
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Well that just clinches it lol, you really dont know how to be efficient in dungeons. I dont know why im argueing with someone whos probably never done a single speedrun of any dungeon other than cof p1.
Los to pull mobs into a small area is very useful. Yeah you dont put some bosses against walls but most you can, aslong as they are pulled before they get defiant stacks. GL has a pretty huge hit box and goes down really fast with 3 warriors, a mesmer and a guardian in melee for all 3 stages. Im unsure if whirlwind hits for the full amount on GL but it doesnt really matter seeing as warriors add huge amounts of damage to the group by applying vuln, fury and might along with the banners.
(edited by spoj.9672)
And actually no i dont bother with Line of sight outside of random spvp matches
Ugh, dude, no. This kind of mentality is exactly what separates the good players from the bad players. LoS is a very valid and commonly used tactic in speed runs, where the efficiency that we talk about takes place.
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I dont hate Necros, im just disapointed with them.
I dont care how amazing that might be at everything else. I just wanted one thing out of them. To be minion masters, and they failed at it miserably. That makes me sad.
@OP
Anyways, to answer your question, most people don’t like necros because they don’t have access to many boons, can’t dodge as well as other classes, can’t cleave, and can’t excape combat very well. Most people would rather play classes that access to all of that.
IMO playing Necromancer is kinda like playing the Hard Difficulty of the game. True, they don’t have the best utility, but they have their strengths believe me. It’s just that most of the other classes are easier to be good at.
Well that just clinches it lol, you really dont know how to be efficient in dungeons. I dont know why im argueing with someone whos probably never done a single speedrun of any dungeon other than cof p1.
Los to pull mobs into a small area is very useful. Yeah you dont put some bosses against walls but most you can, aslong as they are pulled before they get defiant stacks. GL has a pretty huge hit box and goes down really fast with 3 warriors, a mesmer and a guardian in melee for all 3 stages. Im unsure if whirlwind hits for the full amount on GL but it doesnt really matter seeing as warriors add huge amounts of damage to the group by applying vuln, fury and might along with the banners.
Pulling mobs is not line of sight, to line of sight something is using terrain to block specific attacks or mechanics of a fight (e.g. pillars in AC and CoE)
Stacking mobs to just aoe on doors is just a type of pull….
BTW – as said valkyre ele does more burst than Warrior, but since you really wanna hammer into people that they dont, here http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/elementalist/?1.0|8.1p.h2.8.1p.h1g|0.0.0.0.0.0|1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c|2v.d13.2t.d13.2v.d13.2t.d13.2v.d13.2v.d13|0.p67.0.f4.u1ab|39.1|1n.1r.1p.1q.28|e
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Well that just clinches it lol, you really dont know how to be efficient in dungeons. I dont know why im argueing with someone whos probably never done a single speedrun of any dungeon other than cof p1.
Los to pull mobs into a small area is very useful. Yeah you dont put some bosses against walls but most you can, aslong as they are pulled before they get defiant stacks. GL has a pretty huge hit box and goes down really fast with 3 warriors, a mesmer and a guardian in melee for all 3 stages. Im unsure if whirlwind hits for the full amount on GL but it doesnt really matter seeing as warriors add huge amounts of damage to the group by applying vuln, fury and might along with the banners.
Pulling mobs is not line of sight, to line of sight something is using terrain to block specific attacks or mechanics of a fight (e.g. pillars in AC and CoE)
Stacking mobs to just aoe on doors is just a type of pull….BTW – as said valkyre ele does more burst than Warrior, but since you really wanna hammer into people that they dont, here http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/elementalist/?1.0|8.1p.h2.8.1p.h1g|0.0.0.0.0.0|1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c.1p.71c|2v.d13.2t.d13.2v.d13.2t.d13.2v.d13.2v.d13|0.p67.0.f4.u1ab|39.1|1n.1r.1p.1q.28|e
LOS mobs causes them to run round corners into melee range on your group. Basically pulling a huge room full of trash or elites into an enclosed space where they can be quickly burst down with aoe and cleave. The whole gw2 community calls it LoS because you are using los to pull the mobs. Pulling them normally could have a disastrous effect, causing the group to wipe if the mobs have hard hitting ranged attacks. Hence the term LoS is used to avoid confusion…
I dont have a lvl 80 ele so i cant really comment on it. But linking the build doesnt help me. Show me a video of it hitting 70k and ill believe it.
(edited by spoj.9672)
- Note that is just the fire grab, not the entire combo (its F3 4 5 F1 3 dodge in 2 4 Wave Power 5 F4 3 4 3 2 5 F2 while still churning – too lazy to type in all skill names).
Also shows what games are my roots using the (good) old LoS meaning from the DOS era (aka xcom, red alert and doom times).
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
(edited by Andele.1306)
Ranking classes by PvE usefulness only works with context though. What level of dungeon clearing are we talking about? Fractals at 20+? Speed farming CoF? Regular guild group? Pugging into babby’s first dungeon in AC?
At lower levels, the priority is survival and leeway for mistakes. When I pug, I find that other necromancers are extremely rare – probably the rarest of all classes but I rate them higher than anything outside Guardians because it’s relatively easy for them to stay alive. An unskilled Necro is still surviveable. An unskilled ele, mesmer, thief or engi will go down at the drop of a hat. At mid ranges, I find necro is still highly useful for groups that don’t skip all the trash and/or has the gumption to get stuck in with bosses that pugs usually kite/range.
Wow, the sheer amount of ridiculous arguments over pointless kitten in this entire thread is disheartening to say the least.
@theOP – If your goal is to speed run dungeons as quickly as possible with no desire to actually take part in the fights than to gather and kill. The fastest way to do that is Guardian, 3 warriors, 1 Mesmer. That’s all you need nothing else is even close to the sheer power of that group.
The ridiculous part of this discussion is that the difference in timed speed runs between that Optimum group and a Full Necro or any other group doing a speed run with skilled players is 1 minute at most. It’s completely ridiculous to base any assumptions on skill or which class is best based on the current level of dungeon content.
Any class can solo any single portion of this game including dungeons. Take a look at wyvernxproductions youtube channel. He has solo’d several dungeon paths at a necro. The ridiculous posts by players saying Necromancers are at a disadvantage in dungeons are made simply by players with no realization of how dungeons currently work, and overcomplicate every single facet of the game.
Finally, Damage is not the king of dungeon fights. Reflection and the ability to completely avoid damage with vigor/block is the king of dungeons/fractals currently. A good Guardian with a nice elementalist support class will make any dungeon run a breeze. Mesmer’s are pretty pointless outside of speed runs.
The only argument that has any valid bearing on this current debate is the one stating that our specialty condition manipulation is really lackluster due to the strength of boons and reflection in the current dungeon setup. Because bosses and fights don’t apply conditions liberally nor do the attack quickly enough to make weakness/blinds/and chill effective conditions to apply (this also effects Mesmers built around confusion) this essentially limits the effectiveness of Necromancers, Mesmers, and Thieves in dungeons as it’s currently faster to just brute force your way through a fight or use reflections to protect yourself.
@Bas
The all necro run was only 1 minute slower on cof p1. That run takes 6-7mins so thats quite a big difference in terms of percentage. Other dungeons and paths the time difference will be pretty huge. Most paths that people consider long and difficult can be done in 20mins or less, excluding a few such as arah p4. As much as i love the necro its just no where near good enough in dungeons, the same goes for engi’s, rangers, eles and thieves. Obviously they all can be pretty good when built right and played well but thats besides the point. All classes should be on equal footing for dungeons. This is why we need much more variety in boss mechanics.
Me and a guildmate had a conversation last night about this. We came up with a few ideas for mechanics. But one id like to mention is one which would make groups bring in atleast one condition spec class. Basically the boss goes through phases where in one phase brute force is really slow to kill the boss but conditions are really strong due to low hp and high toughness. So you condition damage the boss through those phases then switch back to brute force. This would force speedrun groups to take a slightly different team comp, opening up the viability of all classes alot more.
In essence the classes are pretty good at the moment, they just need refining and fixing. What will really make things balanced in PvE is much more and better game mechanics.
@Bas.7406 So you agree that necro is lacking in the reflection vigor block ?invulnerability?, or do Death shroud still make up for all that :>.
@spoj.9672 Somehow i doubt that will ever happen most/everything in pve seems designed for power dmg and condition dmg have so many many issues i get impression its one of those tings anet got no idea what to with.
If they made dungeons bosses need condition dmg to do well it would also mean those people would have to possible respec after if they do events where the bleed cap prevents that spec and power once again is king. <- rather annoying.
@Bas.7406 So you agree that necro is lacking in the reflection vigor block ?invulnerability?, or do Death shroud still make up for all that :>.
Death Shroud makes up for Invulnerability unless you are condition damage specced where you can’t build LF fast enough to make up for the loss.
Reflection is too strong in the current FOTM setup that it overshadows anything else. Since a single bolt reflected back on some bosses or blocked will take out your entire death shroud, it leads to a more difficult experience for a Necromancer
@Bas.7406 So you agree that necro is lacking in the reflection vigor block ?invulnerability?, or do Death shroud still make up for all that :>.
Death Shroud makes up for Invulnerability unless you are condition damage specced where you can’t build LF fast enough to make up for the loss.
Reflection is too strong in the current FOTM setup that it overshadows anything else. Since a single bolt reflected back on some bosses or blocked will take out your entire death shroud, it leads to a more difficult experience for a Necromancer
I’ve been wondering about this.
I thought that as long as you had enough LF to activate Death Shroud then you would take no hitpoint damage from anything as long as you were in Death Shroud. So, if a boss hit you for 1 bazillion damage and you were in DS (even if you only had 8% LF left) you’d just drop out of Shroud at full health. The extra damage would be effectively wasted, meaning every 10 seconds you’re invulnerable as long as you have 10% Life Force.
Does it not work that way on some bosses?
@Bas.7406 So you agree that necro is lacking in the reflection vigor block ?invulnerability?, or do Death shroud still make up for all that :>.
Death Shroud makes up for Invulnerability unless you are condition damage specced where you can’t build LF fast enough to make up for the loss.
Reflection is too strong in the current FOTM setup that it overshadows anything else. Since a single bolt reflected back on some bosses or blocked will take out your entire death shroud, it leads to a more difficult experience for a Necromancer
I’ve been wondering about this.
I thought that as long as you had enough LF to activate Death Shroud then you would take no hitpoint damage from anything as long as you were in Death Shroud. So, if a boss hit you for 1 bazillion damage and you were in DS (even if you only had 8% LF left) you’d just drop out of Shroud at full health. The extra damage would be effectively wasted, meaning every 10 seconds you’re invulnerable as long as you have 10% Life Force.
Does it not work that way on some bosses?
It depends on how the damage is done. If it’s only registered as one hit, and you have 10 percent LF than yes, Death Shroud will absorb the 50 billion damage. However, if it’s registered as two hits in say 45billion and then a follow up of 5000 and you have 4000 damage you will die coming out of ds because the initial hit took you out of DS, and the second hit killed you.
If it’s a channeled hit you can actually absorb a portion flash out, and then flash in again absorbing the front and back end of the damage while still keeping your DS from draining completely ;p.
DS is essentially an invulnerability/blind/damage soak every 10 seconds if used correctly.
Being an Engineer I mostly spit on these 3 optimum classes daily whenever they mention me being useless even after unveiling some tricks like homemade stealth when that Mesmer is too lazy to pull out a mass invisibility.
I do like a Necromancer in my team, they are often solid, that’s all I ask.
Disgruntled Charr Engineer and Thief – Jade Quarry.