Guild Wars 2

So in many respects the necro is like a tanky mage class. Nearly every proffession has stability and if they dont they have other forms of escapes. Necros have like 2 forms of stability. One is from elite on a 120something cooldown. The other is off the DS trait.

For tanky supports, you would think they would have more avenues of stability. And neither of the ones they have allow you to use any of your wep or utility skills while active.

This is tremendously uncool. The only 2 they have not only restrict necros from using any weapons or utilities, they are also scarcely available in play.

Is there a reason for this? Is there some balance thing im missing about the necros not needing any real forms of handy stability as a tanky support?

yerp, i agree. this is one of my biggest annoyances as necro. can’t do anything to keep from being tossed around like a rag doll. if you’re power, you need the utility slots for wells and can only afford 1 stunbreak. yet you’re also frequently at close-range, facing a lot of CC. it can feel frustrating at times.

the thing you might be missing, unless you already knew – death shroud is used to soak burst damage when you’re rendered helpless by CC. a blinding well can also help a lot if you think you are about to be hit with some kind of CC → burst combo.

unfortunately, we are just balls at stomping.

necro seems designed to lock into a fight and not back down. they are better at slowing the enemy down and advancing forward rather than speeding themselves up and running away. and this kind of playstyle begs for stability….but no x_x there is no easy way to get it, you have to go 30 into soul reaping or blow an elite form. (heh)

i’m not sure why. perhaps there are builds which would become too powerful with easier access to stability. or, perhaps necros are just overlooked. choose your own adventure.

We have Stability in Lich form…oh wait…Lich moves at the speed of a glacier.(fitting because the “chill of death” right?) Our Shroud #2 seems best suited to stopping people from running, it will still port you if it’s cast before you get knocked down.

Criselli.7462:

We have Stability in Lich form…oh wait…Lich moves at the speed of a glacier.(fitting because the “chill of death” right?)

Lich form doesn’t alter your movement speed.

As to Stability: I think it’s the same reason damage mitigation boons (Vigor, protection) are sparse on the necromancer. The naturally huge health pool and potential replenishability of death shroud means that a few too many extra boons (Like ignoring CC via stability) and the necromancer becomes too much of an immovable object.

I’m not sure I agree with that rationale / balance decision, but that’s my guess as to the reasoning behind it.

Softspoken.2410:

…
I’m not sure I agree with that rationale / balance decision, but that’s my guess as to the reasoning behind it.

That is what they were thinking, but I will go so far as to say flatly that I do not agree with it.

If it was just stability, or just vigor, or just protection, or just invulnerability, or just blocking, or just good stun breaks, or just a general lack of mobility or even any combination that didn’t include all of these that we had limited to no access to as a profession, then that would be ok, but denying necros any reliable boon except regen without big time trait investment is too punitive.

We have 3 methods to stability on our own, Plague form, Lich Form, and 30 Soul Reaping.

We don’t get it because stuns have a smaller effect on us because regardless of CC we can go into Death Shroud to absorb the damage. Is it perfect? No, but it’s the main reason we don’t have access to those abilities.

Bas.7406:

We have 3 methods to stability on our own, Plague form, Lich Form, and 30 Soul Reaping.

We don’t get it because stuns have a smaller effect on us because regardless of CC we can go into Death Shroud to absorb the damage. Is it perfect? No, but it’s the main reason we don’t have access to those abilities.

We might be able to soak up the damage from one stun, but once the chain stuns start comin, it’s over. I try to be patient so I can dodge out at the first opportunity, but sometimes I can literally count to 10 while all I can do is sit and watch myself get destroyed.

krippler.9826:

Bas.7406:

We have 3 methods to stability on our own, Plague form, Lich Form, and 30 Soul Reaping.

We don’t get it because stuns have a smaller effect on us because regardless of CC we can go into Death Shroud to absorb the damage. Is it perfect? No, but it’s the main reason we don’t have access to those abilities.

We might be able to soak up the damage from one stun, but once the chain stuns start comin, it’s over. I try to be patient so I can dodge out at the first opportunity, but sometimes I can literally count to 10 while all I can do is sit and watch myself get destroyed.

Yes, but it’s only because of Death Shroud that you can count to 10. Most classes can only get as high as 5 or 6.

I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.

Bull Zooker.1672:

I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.

This is exactly where I would put it. SA is already an underused utility (given the long cooldown) puting stability there would make it very nice for any tanky or bunker build.

even if they put “stability on spectral armor” as a minor trait in SR or death im sure you would see a huge increase in SA users.

We have best stability in the game — 3 seconds on 10 seconds cooldown. It’s 9 seconds on 30 seconds cooldown, and guardians have only 5 on 30 with their shout.

If you really want a reason to kitten about – take a look at blocks and vigor.

I dont like going 30 into a trait line to get a boon that would be a compliment to my build. as it means my whole build is compromised as I’ve spent 30 points complimenting it.

does that make sense?

and you can use DS as a block if needed. vigor on the other hand would be delicious.

You can only use this 3sec/10 sec cooldown with a minimum of lifeforce. Normally when things goes sour and you try to use your Lifeforce to soak bursts, you are out of lifeforce and can’t go back to receive stability even if DS is no longer on cooldown.

I agree that block and vigor would be way better, but right now if we dont have another class to grant us stability, we’re the best profession that emulates a ping pong ball on the field. (also the fact that knockdown is way better than a 1-2 sec fear just adds salt to the wound.)

With the right build you’ll never be unable to go into DS for the stability when you need it – see Spectral Attunement.

What about something like:

Last gasp: Automatically receive Spectral Armor when hit below 50% health. Spectral Armor also grants 5s stability. ICD to 90s.

No matter what I do with my spec its always 30 soul reaping. Its agonizing but it should be. That burst of stability is that important to me. It may not be a lot but its there instantly when I want it.

Halo.8976:

We have best stability in the game — 3 seconds on 10 seconds cooldown. It’s 9 seconds on 30 seconds cooldown, and guardians have only 5 on 30 with their shout.

If you really want a reason to kitten about – take a look at blocks and vigor.

Except guardians don’t have to invest 30 points in a rather lackluster trait tree for Thiers, and you forgot about Hallowed Ground.

Bull Zooker.1672:

I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.

The problem is if they did that, it would become an exact replica of Elementalist Earth armor, but directly better because of the LF generation.

Bhawb.7408:

Bull Zooker.1672:

I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.

The problem is if they did that, it would become an exact replica of Elementalist Earth armor, but directly better because of the LF generation.

I guess thats why elementalist’s vapor blade is just as good as rending claws. Oh wait it isn’t.

Point is you cannot base an argument on individual skills between professions but whole builds.

Spectral attunement is good for lifeforce regen, but then you’re stuck in a -/20/-/-/30 build just to make sure you always have enough lifeforce for stability, and use spectrals skills x3, which is not that common. So saying that we can use stability every 10 sec under pressure is not really realistic.

We dont really need a 90 sec cooldown on those though. The real problem seems to lie in the cost of gaining lifeforce against other buff. We seem to pay the big price + a tax just for skills that grants us lifeforce. 6 sec of (self) protection can’t justify a 60 sec cooldown, nor a stun break. So the overcosted ability here is our lifeforce gain. Yet our lifeforce doesn’t even compete with a 3 sec block, invulnerability etc, which are also on short cooldown on many professions.

Even spectral walk would be better with a shorter cooldown/shorter swiftness, just to be able to use it special effect more. Every time I hit it only for swiftness, I feel like I lost an opportunity in the next 48 sec(traited) to escape from a bad situation.

I know we can’t ask for a normalised cost (in cooldowns) for all boon on all professions because of synergy (and also keep a unique feel to professions), but the math behind ours could be revised to be lower than it is right now.

The moral is you cant have your cake and eat it too. Easy stability is not in the cards for us, which allows us to be overpowered in other ways like ranged aoe damage.

Just to hop onto the stability thing, as i said over and over again, turning the 3 second stability from foot in the grave into Shade effect (immunity to conventional cc, immob and cripple, but not to blowout, pull and fear) from beta would solve 40% of necro combat problems (other 40% being fixed with sigil of energy on at least one of your weapon sets, 10% by better LF generation on Scepter 3 and Axe 2; and the last 10% depends on when and if ever we get the math on DS).

So here’s a thought. Don’t know if this has been discussed before to be viable or not.

A 10/0/30/0/30 with weapons and armor being PTV. Runes in armor being Superior water, Superior monk, and Major Sanctuary. The first 2 gives 15% boon and the 3rd giving 10% boon. Giving us a total of 40%, plus having 30 in death magic will give us an additional 30% to a total of 70%. This would increase our Stability from 3 seconds to 5.1. Now we would have the ability to get that 5.1 every 10 seconds. For Weapons I would take staff and A/F. These weapons plus the traits I pick are heavy in protection, retaliation and regeneration for boons, which will also benefit from the boosted duration. My question would be this, and I hope someone could answer in regards to retaliation and protection. While protection is giving me 33% less damage. Does my retaliation redistributes the damage back to it sender for the full damage or the 33% less damage that I’m receiving? If it does full damage back to the sender then I can see how this build could have some legitimacy.

Spite:
V – spiteful spirit

Death Magic:
II – greater marks
VII – spiteful vigor
IV – Ritual Protection

Soul Reaping:
IV – Spectral mastery
V – Soul Mark
XI – foot in the grave

For Utilities, given the theme of this build I would focus on Spectral and Wells. Haven’t decided what would complement each other well. Let’s take a closer look at some with the add boon duration. With spectral mastery we also drop CD by 20% so Spectral Armor now has 72 CD and a 10.2 protection. Spectral Walk would be a 48 CD and a 51 swiftness, giving one perma swift. Spectral wall is a 32 CD and 8.5 protection. Spectral grasp would not benefit from this build other than the shorten CD. Moving on to Wells, With Ritual Protection giving one 3 sec of protection for each well’s is a nice added feature. Especially now that the 3 sec is 5.1 and stacks in duration with all other Wells. With spiteful vigor we are also getting 8.5 of retaliation, so when dropping a well of blood we’d get a quick retaliation and protection not to mention some healing. Well of corruption would give you boons and strip the enemy of theirs and applying conditions. Well of Power would give you a nice set of boons depending on how many conditions you may have. Jumps into DS at any time and get 5.1 retaliation plus 5.1 of Stability and that can be done every 10 seconds if you wish. I think one can see the potential of the high stacking boons, but please share your opinion or criticism. I threw this together while at work so I may have left out some good or bad points to this build.

Thanks you

Sajuuk.4973:

So here’s a thought. Don’t know if this has been discussed before to be viable or not.

A 10/0/30/0/30 with weapons and armor being PTV. Runes in armor being Superior water, Superior monk, and Major Sanctuary. The first 2 gives 15% boon and the 3rd giving 10% boon. Giving us a total of 40%, plus having 30 in death magic will give us an additional 30% to a total of 70%. This would increase our Stability from 3 seconds to 5.1. Now we would have the ability to get that 5.1 every 10 seconds. For Weapons I would take staff and A/F. These weapons plus the traits I pick are heavy in protection, retaliation and regeneration for boons, which will also benefit from the boosted duration. My question would be this, and I hope someone could answer in regards to retaliation and protection. While protection is giving me 33% less damage. Does my retaliation redistributes the damage back to it sender for the full damage or the 33% less damage that I’m receiving? If it does full damage back to the sender then I can see how this build could have some legitimacy.

Spite:
V – spiteful spirit

Death Magic:
II – greater marks
VII – spiteful vigor
IV – Ritual Protection

Soul Reaping:
IV – Spectral mastery
V – Soul Mark
XI – foot in the grave

For Utilities, given the theme of this build I would focus on Spectral and Wells. Haven’t decided what would complement each other well. Let’s take a closer look at some with the add boon duration. With spectral mastery we also drop CD by 20% so Spectral Armor now has 72 CD and a 10.2 protection. Spectral Walk would be a 48 CD and a 51 swiftness, giving one perma swift. Spectral wall is a 32 CD and 8.5 protection. Spectral grasp would not benefit from this build other than the shorten CD. Moving on to Wells, With Ritual Protection giving one 3 sec of protection for each well’s is a nice added feature. Especially now that the 3 sec is 5.1 and stacks in duration with all other Wells. With spiteful vigor we are also getting 8.5 of retaliation, so when dropping a well of blood we’d get a quick retaliation and protection not to mention some healing. Well of corruption would give you boons and strip the enemy of theirs and applying conditions. Well of Power would give you a nice set of boons depending on how many conditions you may have. Jumps into DS at any time and get 5.1 retaliation plus 5.1 of Stability and that can be done every 10 seconds if you wish. I think one can see the potential of the high stacking boons, but please share your opinion or criticism. I threw this together while at work so I may have left out some good or bad points to this build.

Thanks you

It’s based on your Power stat.

198.45 + (0.075 * Power)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

My opinion is that Retaliation is, most of the time, a complete waste of time. It does low damage, and only works if I’m getting hit.

Edit: I tried this build out in Orr, just soloing mobs. I didn’t rune it, but just used my current PVT gear w/ Soldier runes. It’s very, very tanky. The damage is fairly terrible, and the wells have too long a cooldown to be worth bothering with. Retaliation, even with 50% uptime, wasn’t really doing enough damage to bother bringing. Definitely not worth bringing 2 traits for.

Cool idea, but it just doesn’t work very well.

Bhawb.7408:

Bull Zooker.1672:

I would love it if spectral armor gave us stability but cant see that happening.

The problem is if they did that, it would become an exact replica of Elementalist Earth armor, but directly better because of the LF generation.

it will be ok bawb, the entire kittening earth won’t explode if the necro has a skill that is better than another class…

also consider how comparing us to the current alpha class as a reason we shouldn’t get a buff sounds.

PinCushion.7390:

Yes, but it’s only because of Death Shroud that you can count to 10. Most classes can only get as high as 5 or 6.

Unless you’re a thief or a mesmer. Then you just teleport out of it and never take the burst. Engineers can just Elixir S out of anything and go invulnerable for 3 seconds followed by a gear shield for another 3 seconds. Guardians can actually eat that burst and not go down because protection/aegis/knock back bubble combo. Warriors will just endure pain out of it then shield block through the rest of it if necessary.

I think rangers and necros are honestly the only ones left out in the cold here, unless theres something that rangers can do that I’m not aware of.

Kravick.4906:

PinCushion.7390:

Yes, but it’s only because of Death Shroud that you can count to 10. Most classes can only get as high as 5 or 6.

Unless you’re a thief or a mesmer. Then you just teleport out of it and never take the burst. Engineers can just Elixir S out of anything and go invulnerable for 3 seconds followed by a gear shield for another 3 seconds. Guardians can actually eat that burst and not go down because protection/aegis/knock back bubble combo. Warriors will just endure pain out of it then shield block through the rest of it if necessary.

I think rangers and necros are honestly the only ones left out in the cold here, unless theres something that rangers can do that I’m not aware of.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me%22
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage_As_One

Targuil.3741:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me%22
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage_As_One

Necro is supposed to lack mobility skills. A lot of people do not think of Stability as a mobility skill but it is. Enough said.

Anchoku.8142:

Targuil.3741:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/%22Protect_Me%22
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rampage_As_One

Necro is supposed to lack mobility skills. A lot of people do not think of Stability as a mobility skill but it is. Enough said.

lol necros apparently are supposed to lack everything. Your point is not a point. Stability is not mobility is is survivability; something a necro should have. Double life pools of 30k doesn’t count for anything if you are just knockdown locked.

I experienced an entire game in spvp where i was continuously hammered to no end. My health was a joke. As is this profession apparently.

In a group fight in tPvP, Necro are really often the first guy focus. Why? because our lack of mobility and stabilyty make us easy to control and to kill even with “2 hp pool”.
But i don’t really know why we are arguing because for the devs team DS is made to counter a spike in necro wich must be actually 10% of it use.
I think the most stupid think they have done is that some classes have a high mobility (DD ele, mesmer, thief) and others close to nothing in a game where moving from an objective to another quickly make you win the match.

Silverthorn.8576:

In a group fight in tPvP, Necro are really often the first guy focus. Why? because our lack of mobility and stabilyty make us easy to control and to kill even with “2 hp pool”.

The reason is more likely that if you don’t focus-fire the necro down, you’re going to get punished. At least in case of conditionbuilds.

To get back on topic: yes, the 30 is Soul Reaping seems a bit steep as our only on-the-go source for stability (not counting transformations), but there are some pretty nice alternatives. I’ve been personally favoring a fear-heavy build lately, combined with Nightmare set. Some of the cooldowns are steep (Fear an enemy when cc’d, cd 90 seconds) but it has turned out quite nicely. Combine it with fear doing damage, longer fears, etc, you have a pretty nice variety of control at your disposal.

Sidenote: this is with tournament play in mind. I prefer powernecro in PvE, who has invested 30 into Soul Reaping.

even if the stability given by spectral armor (if they buffed it with stability) was the same duration as foot in the grave it would allow us to secure stomps in 1vX fights without having to use an elite.
this would be a huge buff.
I see what you mean bhawb but I can still dream and hope ;-)
though id rather have 6s of stability than I would protection.

Bull Zooker.1672:

even if the stability given by spectral armor (if they buffed it with stability) was the same duration as foot in the grave it would allow us to secure stomps in 1vX fights without having to use an elite.
this would be a huge buff.
I see what you mean bhawb but I can still dream and hope ;-)
though id rather have 6s of stability than I would protection.

I hate to admit it but Stability would probably run contrary to the purpose of Spectral skills in the developers’ minds so the odds of it being added are almost zero. The reason for my thinking is that Spectral skills could make Necromancer extremely tanky; more so than any other profession. Stability may improve dps too much. The trade for being a better punching bag will likely be reduced damage output. Still, it is a good dream to have and the dev’s seem to like making Necromancer more like other professions rather than more unique. Spectral skills need a boost to bring a full build into mainstream use. Stability would go a ways toward doing that but I suspect CD timers will be the only adjustments and they really deserve priority, anyway.

My guess is that Spectral skills besides Walk will get shorter CD while Signets besides Locust will get stronger passives. Unfortunately, I suspect Necromancer will miss getting serious love this month, too, while other professions get focused on. Too many other professions have only one mainstream build.

I agree with you totally. both that stability would be a massive buff (maybe warranting a nerf in other areas) and that the necro is unlikely to receive alot fixes this month.

I also agree that this stability buff most likely will not happen… unfortunately.

Kravick.4906:

PinCushion.7390:

Yes, but it’s only because of Death Shroud that you can count to 10. Most classes can only get as high as 5 or 6.

Unless you’re a thief or a mesmer. Then you just teleport out of it and never take the burst. Engineers can just Elixir S out of anything and go invulnerable for 3 seconds followed by a gear shield for another 3 seconds. Guardians can actually eat that burst and not go down because protection/aegis/knock back bubble combo. Warriors will just endure pain out of it then shield block through the rest of it if necessary.

I think rangers and necros are honestly the only ones left out in the cold here, unless theres something that rangers can do that I’m not aware of.

The difference is that other classes have to blow their cooldowns to do it. Pretty much all the examples you gave are on 40s+ cooldowns even when traited (except for some Guardian shouts). If they get burst a second time (say, by a mesmer) they are basically done for. Necros on the other hand can eat a burst every time it’s up.

Of course, you have to account for player skill and every fight is different, so theorycrafting is only so useful.

Rangers have a “sort of” Endure Pain which transfers all direct damage to their pet for a few seconds. It’s a shout on 60s CD.

I have access to enough stability on my guardian (with boon duration) to have about 15s of stability using shouts and my traited aegis. This is without taking hallowed ground and im sure there are more utilities for stability on guardian? I also have invulnerable on elite which in turn recharges my aegis giving me more stability when activated.

necromancer has 3s of stability 30 points into a trait line.
I think necromancers would enjoy more access to the boon.

We would enjoy it, but I think we might enjoy it the same way thieves would enjoy a buff to backstab damage.

im not sure its the same thing bhawb? unless of course your referring to something that will never happen?

PinCushion.7390:

It’s based on your Power stat.

198.45 + (0.075 * Power)
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

My opinion is that Retaliation is, most of the time, a complete waste of time. It does low damage, and only works if I’m getting hit.

Edit: I tried this build out in Orr, just soloing mobs. I didn’t rune it, but just used my current PVT gear w/ Soldier runes. It’s very, very tanky. The damage is fairly terrible, and the wells have too long a cooldown to be worth bothering with. Retaliation, even with 50% uptime, wasn’t really doing enough damage to bother bringing. Definitely not worth bringing 2 traits for.

Cool idea, but it just doesn’t work very well.

Thanks for posting the formula for retaliation. Yeah, once I saw how low the damage was from it, I would agree too that it’s not worth it in the long run. If only retaliation redistribute some serious damage, then this would have been I nice idea, and something to consider, especially for an attrition class.

Bull Zooker.1672:

im not sure its the same thing bhawb? unless of course your referring to something that will never happen?

Pretty much, I was referring to the fact that everyone would like overpowered buffs to their class (like the famous dual wielding greatsword suggestion). I think stability (at least in certain forms) would break the tenuous balance we have.

Retaliation is still fairly strong, but it needs to be used in tanky builds with high power. I have a build that throws back about 400 damage per hit, while this doesn’t seem like a lot, its comparable to a few stacks of confusion, and in the right builds it synergizes pretty well.

double wielding greatsword would be pretty epic… ;-)

welp rerolling mesmer. Goodbye necros. Sry you will not be missed. NECRO RIP