Guild Wars 2

So first of all please be comprehensive with my english, the french forum is dead…

I just want to ask why the reaper is kittenty like this. The GS is useless in raid and doesn’t deal any damages compared to the others zerk builds.
And the icing on the cake is that event in condi damages the necromancer is under other classes like the condi engineer.
So it shows that the necromancer is in the trash PVE tier even if I love my class.
So Anet please buff the reaper it could be great.

here ares the dps benchmarks http://www.qtfy.enjin.com/dps
-A random player

This isnt a problem with GS or reaper. The title is misleading. Anyways, we have lower dps because we have 32k hp without vitality, and the dude working on this class thinks that makes it OK to give us near-garbage dps in PvE.

The necromancer is in the trash tier of PvE since ever. For years we asked for a buff to his damage and there was a time when if you joined a dungeon as a necromancer everyone asked you change class, or just kick you out without mercy.

We always had the worst direct damage dps and the GS don’t changed this. The GS don’t increased our DPS by so much (not so much either in the best spam situation) and in a large amount of situations it decrease our dps (miss your gravedigger few times because you need to dodge and you will regret your dagger/warhorn).
The condition build is good, but unless you’re fighting a really long boss your dps is not enough to be compared to all the other classes. You can be asked to join a team only because they have some condi classes and you can use Epidemic, fighting the enemy with your allies conditions (granting you a way to inflict high damage, just because don’t come from yourself).

But don’t hope too much, the necromancer is an Attrition class. We have too much survavibility (two health bar! omg!). ANet will never really buff our dps because we have too much survavibility and we’re not supposed to be anything more than an attrition class.
We’re the only class chained to his theme. The ele is the best support of this game but in PvE can be the best dps. The guardian is the bunker class but is used as a dps since ever (both in PvE and sPvP, frequently also in WvW when not used by a commander).

We don’t contribute di anything for our team (unless make the enemy easier to kill in sPvP corrupting boons), don’t have good dps and our survavibility in a team enviroment is high but at the same level of our allies because we can’t be healed while in shroud while our allies can be healed by an ele all the time.

There’s not a real reason to bring a necromancer with you in a dungeon.

We need a high dps rework, but we will never have one.

Silv.9207:

We need a high dps rework, but we will never have one.

The thing is, Anet could easily add a pve only damage buff to certain traits, if they think we would be too powerful in pvp/wvw.
+10% vs chilled foes in reaper.
+5% vs bleeding foes in blood magic.
+10% whilst in shroud in Soul Reaping.
+10% whilst using a greatsword.

Necro has the 2nd lowest damage trait buffs in the game (mesmer being the lowest – but they have quickness/alacrity to stay viable). We were labelled as the selfish dps class and should have the damage to prove that to be a correct statement.

No case for a damage buff can be made just because a class is the lowest DPS of them all … someone is always the lowest.

Does anyone have any quantitative data of relative DPS values between classes anymore or are we in speculation mode now?

Obtena.7952:

No case for a damage buff can be made just because a class is the lowest DPS of them all … someone is always the lowest.

Does anyone have any quantitative data of relative DPS values between classes anymore or are we in speculation mode now?

The lowest should be the ones that provide the most party support. As stated many times, Necros have very low party support. And yes we have benchmark dps. Necro power isn’t even listed as it is that bad.

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

No case for a damage buff can be made just because a class is the lowest DPS of them all … someone is always the lowest.

Does anyone have any quantitative data of relative DPS values between classes anymore or are we in speculation mode now?

The lowest should be the ones that provide the most party support. As stated many times, Necros have very low party support. And yes we have benchmark dps. Necro power isn’t even listed as it is that bad.

Depends really. More party support is not the only place Anet could make up for lowest DPS. That’s not a foregone conclusion that if your DPS sucks, party support is where you should be strong. For instance, strong individual sustainability would also be an area Anet could make up for weak DPS, though I think if that is actually the case, it still falls short.

As far as the DPS is concerned, I see no problem with not having a power DPS spec.

Obtena.7952:

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

No case for a damage buff can be made just because a class is the lowest DPS of them all … someone is always the lowest.

Does anyone have any quantitative data of relative DPS values between classes anymore or are we in speculation mode now?

The lowest should be the ones that provide the most party support. As stated many times, Necros have very low party support. And yes we have benchmark dps. Necro power isn’t even listed as it is that bad.

Depends really. More party support is not the only place Anet could make up for lowest DPS. That’s not a foregone conclusion that if your DPS sucks, party support is where you should be strong. For instance, strong individual sustainability would also be an area Anet could make up for weak DPS, though I think if that is actually the case, it still falls short.

As far as the DPS is concerned, I see no problem with not having a power DPS spec.

Time and time again it has been proven that our shroud is vastly inferior to other professions’ defences. So the idea that necromancers should have less damage because we have an extra life bar is redundant.

The problem is that the trinity tank heal dps doesn’t really exist in this game and that we only need to get the hightest dps to kill raid bosses survivability doesn’t really matters. It could be cool to have a dev’s answers…

Again, I’m not sure what Anet’s ‘formula’ is for justifying the current state of Necro. I simply agree that the current state doesn’t justify the lack of damage and that it’s not a foregone conclusion that team support is where the boost to the class should happen. Personally, I would prefer the boost to happen in damage, not team support.

Frankly, I’ve always thought that shroud was the culprit; it doesn’t function well as a PVE or PVP spec, yet everything has to be balanced around its existence as it’s a significant and persistent class element. Pretty hard thing to do as we can see.

Arenanet balances for open world PVE clickers and to them doing 5k dps with half a hand vs 2k dps of a downstate elementalist sounds amazing.

Im not even joking or raging, thats just where their primary focus is.

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

No case for a damage buff can be made just because a class is the lowest DPS of them all … someone is always the lowest.

Does anyone have any quantitative data of relative DPS values between classes anymore or are we in speculation mode now?

The lowest should be the ones that provide the most party support. As stated many times, Necros have very low party support. And yes we have benchmark dps. Necro power isn’t even listed as it is that bad.

(All Buffs) Power Reaper has 26k DPS. Shown by Brazil on Youtube. It’s on par if not slightly higher than Warrior in your list.

And yes I can imagine ANet does not rise Reaper damage because the class has huge sustain in PvE. Might be a stupid situation for some people who would prefer to be more squishy and deal more damage… but that’s the way it is.

The 26k DPS Power Reaper runs Valkyrie Gear giving it 30k HP + Shroud. You should never die running that build.

Note: even the “realistic” DPS benchmarks at qtfy are on the target golem, which means no effort avoiding death, doing mechanics, etc.

It is extremely likely that the ANet team use numbers based on real world performance, in raids among other places, to balance classes. They do actively boost underperforming weapons routinely.

So, while it isn’t impossible that GS reaper isn’t as good as other options, it is also highly unlikely that the overall performance of the class with it is that far below everyone else.

Lahmia.2193:

The lowest should be the ones that provide the most party support. As stated many times, Necros have very low party support. And yes we have benchmark dps. Necro power isn’t even listed as it is that bad.

Power necro self generates might, and self generates vuln. That’s why the DPS is lower.

Kumouta.4985:

This isnt a problem with GS or reaper. The title is misleading. Anyways, we have lower dps because we have 32k hp without vitality, and the dude working on this class thinks that makes it OK to give us near-garbage dps in PvE.

That’s not true, considering warrior has the same HP pool and their DPS is not garbage (and they bring the strongest group buffs in the game to boot).

Crinn.7864:

Lahmia.2193:

The lowest should be the ones that provide the most party support. As stated many times, Necros have very low party support. And yes we have benchmark dps. Necro power isn’t even listed as it is that bad.

Power necro self generates might, and self generates vuln. That’s why the DPS is lower.

Stupid argument. This is not a solo game, and ele self generates might and vulnerability, as does PS greatsword warrior.

Sword revenant generates 10+ might, permafury, and stacks vulnerability with sword auto and deals 30k DPS easy.

That argument isn’t stupid at all … the fact that necro can self generate buffs that increase their DPS is a fundamentally important consideration when looking at how much DPS they get and from where it comes from. While I think Necro DPS is low, it is an important consideration to see how you self-buff on DPS enhancement if you’re going to realistically petition Anet for class changes because of low DPS.

Obtena.7952:

That argument isn’t stupid at all … the fact that necro can self generate buffs that increase their DPS is a fundamentally important consideration when looking at how much DPS they get and from where it comes from. While I think Necro DPS is low, it is an important consideration to see how you self-buff on DPS enhancement if you’re going to realistically petition Anet for class changes because of low DPS.

No, it’s a stupid argument because the game formats are designed with team play in mind, and in teams boons are easily provided.

Balancing around 1v1 or 2v2 is beyond kittened. Especially considering necro in 1v1 isn’t even good to begin with.

But then again you’re the forum contrarian who failed to address why that is a standard that can apply to necro, but not ele/warrior/rev who can also self buff and apply vulnerability easily while doing vastly more DPS.

Um, there are lots of game formats that are not designed with team play in mind in GW2, and that is relevant if you play those game formats, especially exclusively. It’s pretty disingenuous to dismiss the game formats you don’t want to consider, just because it interferes with your idea of what buffs necro should get.

I don’t need to address why standards apply for some classes and not others. There could be lots of reasons and every one of them would be speculative and frankly, not worth the discussion to begin with. What I do know is that no one should exclude the possibility that these classes differences aren’t intended … and that reasons do exist for necros to have low DPS … as long as your objective enough to see it.

Zenith.7301:

Stupid argument. This is not a solo game, and ele self generates might and vulnerability, as does PS greatsword warrior.

Sword revenant generates 10+ might, permafury, and stacks vulnerability with sword auto and deals 30k DPS easy.

Necro self generates 25 stacks of both without needing special foods/runes and sigils, compared to inconsistent might & vuln gen on other classes. Necro also provides vamp aura, and last rites.

Necro in PvE is the most self-sufficient class in the game. That’s why the dps is low. Is it too low even considering that? Probably. But to expect necro to be anywhere near the top dps is unrealistic.

I could understand lower dps if Necromancer brought some other utility to raids.

I joined a squad forming for Vale Guardian this afternoon. The organizer waited for 12 players to join the squad, then asked the other Necro and myself to drop out leaving raid without a Necromancer or a Reaper.

Personally, I am tired of Arenanet. They buff too hard, then they nerf too hard and leave it that way for another year. Necro has more utility than it did in the first couple of years. For that, I am grateful. However, raids still require specific mixes of professions and there is no room for a Necro in cooperative play.

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

Stupid argument. This is not a solo game, and ele self generates might and vulnerability, as does PS greatsword warrior.

Sword revenant generates 10+ might, permafury, and stacks vulnerability with sword auto and deals 30k DPS easy.

Necro self generates 25 stacks of both without needing special foods/runes and sigils, compared to inconsistent might & vuln gen on other classes. Necro also provides vamp aura, and last rites.

Necro in PvE is the most self-sufficient class in the game. That’s why the dps is low. Is it too low even considering that? Probably. But to expect necro to be anywhere near the top dps is unrealistic.

Vampiric aura is garbage and last rites is hardly of any impact, it only pays off if your raid members play badly.

Again, who cares if they can self generate 25 might. 25 might is already freely available in 5 mans and raids, and is easily generated by any comp containing an ele, mesmer, revenant, warrior, or even guardian. With a single ele fire field groups can generate and maintain might easily given the abundance of blast skills even if they nerfed PS warrior.

Who the hell cares that you can solo some trash mobs while doing a braindead dynamic event?

Game balance is not for solo content. Class potential needs to be determined in group content.

I don’t care that you can self generate 25 might in content where you can autoattack mobs to death by spamming staff 1. That’s not content where balance matters.

Absolutely no one can prevent you from participating or being desirable in open world PvE, even on your crappy minstrels axe/warhorn build. That is not the case for 5 mans or raids, and it is where balance needs to happen.

If two classes do the same damage with might, but one can’t generate might and the other can, which is better? The one that generates might.

The fact of the matter is that the entire rest of the game exists, and in the entire rest of the game being able to self generate might is of massive benefit.

Crinn.7864:

If two classes do the same damage with might, but one can’t generate might and the other can, which is better? The one that generates might.

The fact of the matter is that the entire rest of the game exists, and in the entire rest of the game being able to self generate might is of massive benefit.

No.

Because said classes that don’t self generate might also have benefits like shadow step, stealth, reflection, hard CC, and burst. Things a necro doesn’t have.

The entire rest of the game that exists functions regardless of balance because it’s tuned to be so trivial that balance doesn’t matter.

Instanced PvE is not tuned the same. That’s where balance matters.

Again, balance doesn’t matter for your open world PvE, you’re not bound to be optimal by inflicting a burden on other players you have to group with. Nobody can deny your Giver’s stats necro in open world PvE or roaming; everyone can and may deny a power greatsword necro in raids, spvp teams, and organized WvW raids.

This is not a solo game. Group games have to be balanced around group performance.

Zenith.7301:

Because said classes that don’t self generate might also have benefits like shadow step, stealth, reflection, hard CC, and burst. Things a necro doesn’t have.

Necro brings transfusion, CPC, and amazing self-survivability. (for pve anyways)

If necro was DPS competitive while retaining it’s might stacking capabilities there would be no reason not to run quintuple necros for fractals and dungeons, since necro would be blowing everything else out of the water.

If you remove necro might gen to compensate now you’ve gutted every Blighter’s Boon build in sPvP and WvW because Anet isn’t going to skill split something as fundamental as boon generation.

If you want to make necro raid competitive you should petition to get Phalanx Strength removed, since that trait is what is enforcing the entire raid meta.

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

Because said classes that don’t self generate might also have benefits like shadow step, stealth, reflection, hard CC, and burst. Things a necro doesn’t have.

Necro brings transfusion, CPC, and amazing self-survivability. (for pve anyways)

If necro was DPS competitive while retaining it’s might stacking capabilities there would be no reason not to run quintuple necros for fractals and dungeons, since necro would be blowing everything else out of the water.

If you remove necro might gen to compensate now you’ve gutted every Blighter’s Boon build in sPvP and WvW because Anet isn’t going to skill split something as fundamental as boon generation.

If you want to make necro raid competitive you should petition to get Phalanx Strength removed, since that trait is what is enforcing the entire raid meta.

You would never run 5 necros in a fractal for the simple fact that if they did same damage as ele or thief, they would still not bring the group enhancements of most of the classes.

You will never run 5 necros because no banners, no gift of the land or spirits, and most importantly not fields to blast, and the fields you generate as a necro are worthless.

You bring no reflects, cpc is projectile destruction it doesn’t add damage and weakness doesn’t work on bosses.

You don’t bring 5 necros for the reason nobody brings 5 eles or thieves to any group despite them being the best DPS class.

And it’s not because they can’t survive. You keep peddling this BS that there’s issues with survivability in PvE, but thieves and eles are already soloing Ensolyss on challenge mote Nightmare 100 fractal.

That extra HP is absolutely worthless in PvE when most damage is easily avoided. It’s actually much harder to solo Ensolyss 100 challenge mote as a reaper than it is as a thief or ele, because dodges and proactive defensive boons and heals are supremely better for recovery and survival than soaking with death shroud with weak heals and limited dodges.

If you removed PS from warriors, they’d still be brought because banners are ridiculously OP as well, and instead of 2 PS you’d bring a revenant for 10 might to the group and the chrono would signet of inspiration the might into the group while eles provide a permanent fire field in lava font for any of your group to fill the gap.

Stacking 25 might isn’t special, and it’s not only warriors who do it. They just do it with the least effort.

And yes, split balance needs to happen for everything. Split balance worked for GW1, and GW2 abandoned it out of sheer laziness.

Necromancer does not have big on-demand party utilities. Boon share, stealth share, teleport, reflect, control effect, fire field, high condi dps, high power dps, AoE block, big AoE heal… I am sure there are others.

Without sufficient group utility, it does not matter whether Necromancer can solo open world better than some professions.

^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.

I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.

It could be great to discuss with the dev’s team

ryane.6129:

It could be great to discuss with the dev’s team

they dont care about necro.

Obtena.7952:

^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.

I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.

Ignoring the fact that, up until HoT release, Necros were often kicked from dungeon groups because of their lack of party support and damage.
The only time we’ve been meta, in some form of high end pve, was before the Jagged Horror nerf and “condi necros only” was a thing in t4 fractals. And that was purely because of 1 cheesy skill.

Why does it matter? If you want to play a necro bit the group doesn’t let you… Why join that group? There is no content that cannot be done just because a necro is in the group. The time difference between having one and bringing something with a “higher DPS benchmark” is at best, a few seconds, from what I’ve seen with first-hand experience.

Dear ANet: I know you like doing it the easy way. ;-)

So please add some endgame mechanics requiring massive boon corruptions. Group support added. Problem solved. No further balancing needed. Thanks!

KrHome.1920:

Dear ANet: I know you like doing it the easy way. ;-)

So please add some endgame mechanics requiring massive boon corruptions. Group support added. Problem solved. No further balancing needed. Thanks!

Fractal 100 has that indirectly. Every 20 seconds things get Protection, among other boons. Having someone strip it makes the fight faster, essentially if not stripped the fight lasts 33% longer.

Warcry.1596:

Why does it matter? If you want to play a necro bit the group doesn’t let you… Why join that group? There is no content that cannot be done just because a necro is in the group. The time difference between having one and bringing something with a “higher DPS benchmark” is at best, a few seconds, from what I’ve seen with first-hand experience.

Oh I did form my own groups, and I’ve never had a problem doing that. But it highlighted the fact that Necro had some serious design issues when it came to party play. And lets face it. This is a game meant to played with others (MMO – clues in the name). Yes you can play by yourself but, for the most part, those areas are trivial at best so it doesn’t matter what you bring.

Or

Other professions still need group utility or dps nerfs.

I do like the idea of boon corruption (as opposed to stripping) being a necessary squad capability but it will only be a partial fix because it makes Necromancer as much a one-trick pony as other professions.

Honestly, Transfusion was a step in the right direction but it is just not as capable or needed as, say, an AoE reflect. Maybe adding another skill with group utility will be enough to reduce the bias against Necromancer’s lower dps.

Anchoku.8142:

Or

Other professions still need group utility or dps nerfs.

I do like the idea of boon corruption (as opposed to stripping) being a necessary squad capability but it will only be a partial fix because it makes Necromancer as much a one-trick pony as other professions.

Honestly, Transfusion was a step in the right direction but it is just not as capable or needed as, say, an AoE reflect. Maybe adding another skill with group utility will be enough to reduce the bias against Necromancer’s lower dps.

Likewise, CPC getting projectile block was another step in the right direction. Only problem is that its very bias towards condi necro because of the 6s self weakness. cough cough give well of darkness projectile block cough cough

I’m still gunning for Lich form to be changed to an aoe damage buff though. Something along the lines of:
Unholy power of the lich – elite spectral utility
5s duration
60s cooldown
5 targets
Grants +10% damage and condition damage to allies.
600 radius

Zenith.7301:

If you removed PS from warriors, they’d still be brought because banners are ridiculously OP as well, and instead of 2 PS you’d bring a revenant for 10 might to the group and the chrono would signet of inspiration the might into the group while eles provide a permanent fire field in lava font for any of your group to fill the gap.

If you bring a rev, you either replace your warrior with it and lose banners and EA, or you replace a Ele with it and lose said ele.

Without Phalanx Strength groups have to utilize distributed might generation, and under distributed might generation, self-might becomes a valuable capability rather than a irrelevant one.

KrHome.1920:

Dear ANet: I know you like doing it the easy way. ;-)

So please add some endgame mechanics requiring massive boon corruptions. Group support added. Problem solved. No further balancing needed. Thanks!

That won’t change ANYTHING because mesmer sword STRIPS BOONS on auto attack. That would just cement mesmers further and do NOTHING for necro.

FrostDraco.8306:

That won’t change ANYTHING because mesmer sword STRIPS BOONS on auto attack. That would just cement mesmers further and do NOTHING for necro.

Boss pulses 3 boons.

What now mesmers

Why indeed? The answer is “design”.

What held down the necromancer is and have always been it’s design. Anet designed the reaper as a slow inescapable monster on top off the necromancer’s design as the character that is supposed to outlast through a large health pool all other profession. That’s it for the design, in practice it may be slightly different and even have a hard time working but… we are tied to this design.

The greatsword is slow (which is not a design that work well in game due to dodge being the true way to survive in most of the situation) and chill make for the inescapable part.

The best thing to do is still to wait for an e-spec with a different design. Let’s all try our best to think of a kind of nightmare monster that don’t take it’s time while dealing with it’s prey… perhaps we will find hope…

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.

I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.

Ignoring the fact that, up until HoT release, Necros were often kicked from dungeon groups because of their lack of party support and damage.
The only time we’ve been meta, in some form of high end pve, was before the Jagged Horror nerf and “condi necros only” was a thing in t4 fractals. And that was purely because of 1 cheesy skill.

Yes, so I guess being Devil’s Advocate here … how does that matter to Anet? Do you honestly think they use meta as a way to kitten the class, given the state that so many other classes find themselves in the game? I truly do not, why would they adopt a player-imposed evaluation when it considers so little of what defines the value of a class? Really, whatever it is, I’m sure Anet has their own way and are using it.

Obtena.7952:

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.

I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.

Ignoring the fact that, up until HoT release, Necros were often kicked from dungeon groups because of their lack of party support and damage.
The only time we’ve been meta, in some form of high end pve, was before the Jagged Horror nerf and “condi necros only” was a thing in t4 fractals. And that was purely because of 1 cheesy skill.

Yes, so I guess being Devil’s Advocate here … how does that matter to Anet? Do you honestly think they use meta as a way to kitten the class, given the state that so many other classes find themselves in the game? I truly do not, why would they adopt a player-imposed evaluation when it considers so little of what defines the value of a class? Really, whatever it is, I’m sure Anet has their own way and are using it.

What should anet balance around, if not the meta?

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

Lahmia.2193:

Obtena.7952:

^^ Yet for 5 years now … it’s clearly not mattered that Necro doesn’t have sufficient group utility … or perhaps that way of thinking is not correct to begin with. I think it’s all easy to jump to conclusions, thinking we see the answers. It’s not so clear if you don’t understand the intent in the first place.

I won’t argue if there is or isn’t other elements to make up for the damage of the class. What I do find disturbing is the simple and narrow approach that people limit themselves to when having these discussions; it simply never occurs to most people that it’s possible that there isn’t anything here diverging from Anet’s plan for the class. All the arguments always assume something is wrong or broken, based on faulty or irrelevant ideas and comparisons … such a bad start to any discussion with a development team.

Ignoring the fact that, up until HoT release, Necros were often kicked from dungeon groups because of their lack of party support and damage.
The only time we’ve been meta, in some form of high end pve, was before the Jagged Horror nerf and “condi necros only” was a thing in t4 fractals. And that was purely because of 1 cheesy skill.

Yes, so I guess being Devil’s Advocate here … how does that matter to Anet? Do you honestly think they use meta as a way to kitten the class, given the state that so many other classes find themselves in the game? I truly do not, why would they adopt a player-imposed evaluation when it considers so little of what defines the value of a class? Really, whatever it is, I’m sure Anet has their own way and are using it.

What should anet balance around, if not the meta?

This might seem very abstract, but I don’t believe Anet balances around quantitative elements, like DPS for instance. I think it’s more heuristic, like “How does this class deal with situation X?”. It’s easy to see that as long as they generally fall in a range for CD’s, weapon coefficients, etc… on skills and traits, that this is sufficient to maintain an acceptable range of values between classes without actually using them as comparisons. I mean, how else could they possibly balance such a complex interaction of all the classes, skills, weapons, etc… that exists? The idea that they have some numerical algorithm for specific things seems absurd in the face of this complexity, and the fact they haven’t achieved it ingame indicates that as well. I can only assume if they DID use some numerical measure of all this .. then it shouldn’t be as hard as what is indicated by the current state of the game to achieve balance based on these numerical measures.

I think it’s clear that if they ARE using numerical measures, DPS isn’t one of them … otherwise we wouldn’t have such great disparities. It’s either much more complicated or much less quantitative than what people think these balance assessments are.

Lahmia.2193:

What should anet balance around, if not the meta?

End game meta is my vote, too, though “meta” is a tricky term.

CPC was also on my mind. Like Transfusion and its ‘almost good if you look at it sideways’ heal, CPC is half as good as a damage reflect.

Necromancer still has a lot of its original “selfish” design philosophy buried in weapon skills despite the massive trait rework. The breadth of support skills Necromancer lacks is still holding the profession back.

[Suggestion] Rending Shroud: when in shroud nearby enemy gain the condition Touch of the death
Every 3 seconds
600 radius
5 target

Touch of the death
vulnerability effect is doubled
Duration 3 seconds

No more handicapped dps when in shroud, great group utility and more skill required to manage life force.

Crinn.7864:

Zenith.7301:

If you removed PS from warriors, they’d still be brought because banners are ridiculously OP as well, and instead of 2 PS you’d bring a revenant for 10 might to the group and the chrono would signet of inspiration the might into the group while eles provide a permanent fire field in lava font for any of your group to fill the gap.

If you bring a rev, you either replace your warrior with it and lose banners and EA, or you replace a Ele with it and lose said ele.

Without Phalanx Strength groups have to utilize distributed might generation, and under distributed might generation, self-might becomes a valuable capability rather than a irrelevant one.

lololol and by replacing any class with a necro you lose said DPS from an ele/thief to begin with, or the might/group buffs of other classes.

Crinn.7864:

FrostDraco.8306:

That won’t change ANYTHING because mesmer sword STRIPS BOONS on auto attack. That would just cement mesmers further and do NOTHING for necro.

Boss pulses 3 boons.

What now mesmers

This would just hurt necro even more as boon corrupt only affects one boon every 3 auto’s for scepter, while mesmer strips a boon every auto.

The only thing this would benefit is power necro’s taking wells, but wells have a short duration and a long cd, which defeats the point.

FrostDraco.8306:

Crinn.7864:

FrostDraco.8306:

That won’t change ANYTHING because mesmer sword STRIPS BOONS on auto attack. That would just cement mesmers further and do NOTHING for necro.

Boss pulses 3 boons.

What now mesmers

This would just hurt necro even more as boon corrupt only affects one boon every 3 auto’s for scepter, while mesmer strips a boon every auto.

The only thing this would benefit is power necro’s taking wells, but wells have a short duration and a long cd, which defeats the point.

Mesmer only boonstrips on third auto.

Realistically making a boss that advantages necros would be fairly easy.

→boss pulses many boons
→VG style 3 way split but with each of the three adds having a boon that needs stripped with no way to double up adds like you do in VG.
→Boon gives huge advantage when corrupted. I.e boon corruptions into some effect that gives +20% damage taken to boss, or boon corrupts into 40 stacks of burn for 20 seconds. Incentivizes corrupting boons over stripping them.
→Boss is actually a pack of 20 D/F aurashare eles

It’s design; you’re not going to see one of the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Take PS out of the equation and the necro is just objectively a better warrior.

DeceiverX.8361:

the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Lol.

Necro defensives are non-scaling. Great against things that deal low damage like trash mobs, terrible against anything with real dps.