Guild Wars 2

RIP forum bug, it was too soon.

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Lol.

Necro defensives are non-scaling. Great against things that deal low damage like trash mobs, terrible against anything with real dps.

% damage mitigating effects such as protection gained from Spectral armor and the bonus mitigation from Rise! are more potent the larger the incoming hit is.

The effective HP on the class is also roughly 2-4x that of all others given shroud.

DeceiverX.8361:

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Lol.

Necro defensives are non-scaling. Great against things that deal low damage like trash mobs, terrible against anything with real dps.

% damage mitigating effects such as protection gained from Spectral armor and the bonus mitigation from Rise! are more potent the larger the incoming hit is.

The effective HP on the class is also roughly 2-4x that of all others given shroud.

What? Why would % based damage migration be more potent for a large hit? Many small hits together and a big hit will both deal the same damage after reduction if, of course, the damage before migration was the same and the migration was % based.

DeceiverX.8361:

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Lol.

Necro defensives are non-scaling. Great against things that deal low damage like trash mobs, terrible against anything with real dps.

% damage mitigating effects such as protection gained from Spectral armor and the bonus mitigation from Rise! are more potent the larger the incoming hit is.

The effective HP on the class is also roughly 2-4x that of all others given shroud.

If Necromancer has 2x to 4x more EHP than any other profession, then it stands to reason Necromancer gives up 2x to 4x more EHP than any other profession. This is a four and a half year old discussion and is why Life Force generation (and capacity) has been increased over the last several years.

There are other ways to mitigate damage than sucking it up in shroud. Minion Master builds are particularly tanky not because of Death Magic but because minions divert damage from you to them. A minion constitutes a wonky kind of damage immunity skill where you take no damage at all as long as your opponents ignore you and attack the minion (and you avoid AoE). Almost every profession has pets but Ranger, Mesmer, Scrapper, and Necro have pets that do very well at reducing incoming damage, so long as the opponent cannot lock onto the playing character and minimize the pets’ effectiveness.

Muchacho.2390:

DeceiverX.8361:

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Lol.

Necro defensives are non-scaling. Great against things that deal low damage like trash mobs, terrible against anything with real dps.

% damage mitigating effects such as protection gained from Spectral armor and the bonus mitigation from Rise! are more potent the larger the incoming hit is.

The effective HP on the class is also roughly 2-4x that of all others given shroud.

What? Why would % based damage migration be more potent for a large hit? Many small hits together and a big hit will both deal the same damage after reduction if, of course, the damage before migration was the same and the migration was % based.

I am aware of this, but the original claim was non-scaling modifiers would be worse. They aren’t.

If for example you take a 10k blow, 33% from prot would reduce it to 6.7k.

The formula for damage dealt is based on the enemy’s power * weapon damage * crit * misc. modifiers / your armor.

In order to reduce damage by 1/3, you’d need to increase armor by 50%, or roughly 1k for a full glass necromancer. 50% would require double armor, and so on.

Anchoku.8142:

DeceiverX.8361:

Crinn.7864:

DeceiverX.8361:

the most innately durable professions in the game provide top-tier damage.

Lol.

Necro defensives are non-scaling. Great against things that deal low damage like trash mobs, terrible against anything with real dps.

% damage mitigating effects such as protection gained from Spectral armor and the bonus mitigation from Rise! are more potent the larger the incoming hit is.

The effective HP on the class is also roughly 2-4x that of all others given shroud.

If Necromancer has 2x to 4x more EHP than any other profession, then it stands to reason Necromancer gives up 2x to 4x more EHP than any other profession. This is a four and a half year old discussion and is why Life Force generation (and capacity) has been increased over the last several years.

There are other ways to mitigate damage than sucking it up in shroud. Minion Master builds are particularly tanky not because of Death Magic but because minions divert damage from you to them. A minion constitutes a wonky kind of damage immunity skill where you take no damage at all as long as your opponents ignore you and attack the minion (and you avoid AoE). Almost every profession has pets but Ranger, Mesmer, Scrapper, and Necro have pets that do very well at reducing incoming damage, so long as the opponent cannot lock onto the playing character and minimize the pets’ effectiveness.

Which is what I’m getting at. And that damage mitigation, outside of spectral armor, works in shroud as well, which keeps the EHP proportional.

The necromancer has the same problem the mesmer does in a different way; it can’t see huge buffs due to its class mechanics interfering with its viability in offering damage, unless the mechanic itself is replaced with something that doesn’t provide defense (in the mesmer’s case, it’s damage coefficients due to the innate burst potential and invulns on its shatters).

Necro for all intents and purposes should be middle of the pack so long as it gets the bonus defenses from shroud. Otherwise if it offered substantial damage output it’d negate the need for a lot of other professions and put them lower in the rankings at more things.

I’m not opposed to the necromancer having options for damage, but the shroud mechanic as it is, like other durable specs, forces it to not be a top-tier damage-dealer by design for the sake of game balance.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m not opposed to the necromancer having options for damage, but the shroud mechanic as it is, like other durable specs, forces it to not be a top-tier damage-dealer by design for the sake of game balance.

Shroud is only as strong as your ability to replenish it. Your Life Force gain has a fixed upper limit. Your damage taken has no upper limit.

Necros have the worst survivability in pvp specifically because we cannot replace LF as the rate at which we lose it.

But hey we are invincible in story mode dungeons.

EHP is a terrible argument. Survivability is trivial in PvE, people run 11k HP thieves and Eles in raids and t4 fractals with zero survivability issues. In PvP necros keel over dead because cannot handle focus, because oh right our defensives don’t scale.

Shroud is a parlor trick that impresses nobody.

Not to mention that you are not only having an ineffective damage sponge as your main form of defense, but said damage form form also guts your damage output.

You’re essentially delaying the inevitable.

More importantly, DS naturally decays, so it’s really easy for opponents to deplete your RS in a first barrage of cd’s, and then they bulldoze your normal HP faster than you can replenish RS and your heals are the worst in the game.

Just gonna focus on the OP question and ignore the mile-long comments talking about stuff I don’t find relevant to the OPs question:

Greatsword is a burst Power weapon, as such (like any burst weapon) it’s gonna be a bit on the slow side. However, it’s not trash at all and is actually our best burst Power weapon currently available. When Traited properly, GS’s last auto can deal Chill, Vulnerability, and Bleeding while also causing your target to deal 10% less damage to you. With a few other Traits, Crit on the now Chilled foe and you’ll cause an explosion transferring ALL of those Conditions to nearby enemies. GS 5 also Pulls and applies those same Conditions as well. So I digress with it being trash, currently it’s the best we’ve got.

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

On the side-topic about Necros being complete trash in PvE, um not really. Minion Mancer Necros can solo HP Champs in HoT, most other classes tend to ask for help (at least when I’m in the HoT maps I see a lot of HP requests). We’re the selfish class, everything we do is to benefit us first, our allies second, and THAT is why Necro is in such a bad place. For a game that’s so team-oriented in the areas where it counts, Necro’s the only class with very little team-benefits. If you’re not big on soloing or ‘lone wolfing’ it then Necro probably isn’t the right choice for you. Not saying Necro is ONLY for Soloers, but that’s the kind of playstyle/mindset you should have as a Necro.

(We do need a buff though, and not some crappy buff with a huge nerf like last time)

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Well i dont think that Anet will change our dagger (or thief dagger) to hit more then 2. My guess is, they would find it strange if a small weapon like a dagger could cleave like a GS.

And for the new e-spec… I think its a bit early to speculate.

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Well i dont think that Anet will change our dagger (or thief dagger) to hit more then 2. My guess is, they would find it strange if a small weapon like a dagger could cleave like a GS.

And for the new e-spec… I think its a bit early to speculate.

I don’t see the problem with dagger having a 3 cleave. Its hardly likely to push it into the realms of “omg dps too strong pls nerf”. It would only be on the auto attack anyway. Also why would a weapon like sword (european broadsword being a traditionally stabby weapon) have as much cleave as an axe or greatsword? I think those kinds of real world limitations should be left behind, considering we already have a ranged greatsword and hammer.

FrostDraco.8306:

Crinn.7864:

FrostDraco.8306:

That won’t change ANYTHING because mesmer sword STRIPS BOONS on auto attack. That would just cement mesmers further and do NOTHING for necro.

Boss pulses 3 boons.

What now mesmers

This would just hurt necro even more as boon corrupt only affects one boon every 3 auto’s for scepter, while mesmer strips a boon every auto.

The only thing this would benefit is power necro’s taking wells, but wells have a short duration and a long cd, which defeats the point.

Chonos often don’t complete their sword auto chain as they are spamming other skills and it’s only the 3rd auto that removes a boon. Hypothetically, if a boss gained 3 or more boons every 10 seconds and the Necro used Corrupt boon (3 boons removed) then dagger 4 every 10 seconds:

Corrupt boon transfer: 12 seconds poison, 2 stacks of 24 second bleed, 1 stack of 16 second bleed from blind/chill.
Fury → Blind redundant with chilling darkness ICD from dagger 4.
Prot → Vuln: Group isn’t doing 33% reduced damage
Regen → 20 seconds of poison and also prevents healing which is basically dps.
Stability/resistance → Chill/16 second bleed.
Vigor→ 3 stacks of 20 second bleeding.
Retaliation → 3 stacks of confusion for 9 seconds and your team doesn’t kill themselves.

That’s DPS and team support that would make Necros viable.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Note: even the “realistic” DPS benchmarks at qtfy are on the target golem, which means no effort avoiding death, doing mechanics, etc.

It is extremely likely that the ANet team use numbers based on real world performance, in raids among other places, to balance classes. They do actively boost underperforming weapons routinely.

So, while it isn’t impossible that GS reaper isn’t as good as other options, it is also highly unlikely that the overall performance of the class with it is that far below everyone else.

I do think power Necro needs a buff like 10% more damage with the GS trait but yeah… with the DPS meters it’s pretty obvious that a lot of Eles don’t do nearly as much damage as they “should.” I wouldn’t be surprised to see the average pug Ele do similar damage to a Pug reaper spamming wells and 2. There is also the practical side of Full valkyrie making the Scholar bonus much easier to keep up 100% of the time compared to my Ele being brought below 80% health from a single boss aura tick.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

I do think power Necro needs a buff like 10% more damage with the GS trait.

That and a +10% damage vs chilled foes on Cold Shoulder, or Shivers of Dread, would do just nicely.

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Well i dont think that Anet will change our dagger (or thief dagger) to hit more then 2. My guess is, they would find it strange if a small weapon like a dagger could cleave like a GS.

And for the new e-spec… I think its a bit early to speculate.

I don’t see the problem with dagger having a 3 cleave. Its hardly likely to push it into the realms of “omg dps too strong pls nerf”. It would only be on the auto attack anyway. Also why would a weapon like sword (european broadsword being a traditionally stabby weapon) have as much cleave as an axe or greatsword? I think those kinds of real world limitations should be left behind, considering we already have a ranged greatsword and hammer.

I think Anet doesnt see it that way though. Theme is actually important to them.

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Well i dont think that Anet will change our dagger (or thief dagger) to hit more then 2. My guess is, they would find it strange if a small weapon like a dagger could cleave like a GS.

And for the new e-spec… I think its a bit early to speculate.

I don’t see the problem with dagger having a 3 cleave. Its hardly likely to push it into the realms of “omg dps too strong pls nerf”. It would only be on the auto attack anyway. Also why would a weapon like sword (european broadsword being a traditionally stabby weapon) have as much cleave as an axe or greatsword? I think those kinds of real world limitations should be left behind, considering we already have a ranged greatsword and hammer.

There is only 1 thing that should happen to dagger:
“Necrotic Bite: The attack point has been increased by 0.06 seconds and the aftercast delay has been reduced by 0.35 seconds.”

Meaning dagger would have better single target dps than GS since right now GS is a better weapon overall. It also makes sense to boost dagger AA since the other two skills are very situational

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Well i dont think that Anet will change our dagger (or thief dagger) to hit more then 2. My guess is, they would find it strange if a small weapon like a dagger could cleave like a GS.

And for the new e-spec… I think its a bit early to speculate.

I don’t see the problem with dagger having a 3 cleave. Its hardly likely to push it into the realms of “omg dps too strong pls nerf”. It would only be on the auto attack anyway. Also why would a weapon like sword (european broadsword being a traditionally stabby weapon) have as much cleave as an axe or greatsword? I think those kinds of real world limitations should be left behind, considering we already have a ranged greatsword and hammer.

I think Anet doesnt see it that way though. Theme is actually important to them.

And sadly its what has screwed over necros so often.

Sigmoid.7082:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Also 3 targets, considering when the new elite spec comes out (and we get torch as apparently leaked) we will be without a 3 cleave weapon again.

Well i dont think that Anet will change our dagger (or thief dagger) to hit more then 2. My guess is, they would find it strange if a small weapon like a dagger could cleave like a GS.

And for the new e-spec… I think its a bit early to speculate.

I don’t see the problem with dagger having a 3 cleave. Its hardly likely to push it into the realms of “omg dps too strong pls nerf”. It would only be on the auto attack anyway. Also why would a weapon like sword (european broadsword being a traditionally stabby weapon) have as much cleave as an axe or greatsword? I think those kinds of real world limitations should be left behind, considering we already have a ranged greatsword and hammer.

There is only 1 thing that should happen to dagger:
“Necrotic Bite: The attack point has been increased by 0.06 seconds and the aftercast delay has been reduced by 0.35 seconds.”

Meaning dagger would have better single target dps than GS since right now GS is a better weapon overall. It also makes sense to boost dagger AA since the other two skills are very situational

Greatsword would still be higher dps since it has nightfall and gravedigger. Or did you just mean the dagger auto would be higher than greatsword auto?

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Why dagger? It’s a worthless weapon that should die. The only valuable skill on it is an autoattack and it can’t cleave worth a kitten .

By making dagger better than GS you force necro to choose between weapons whereas warrior and ele get their best single target and aoe weapons all in one weapon (staff and greatsword).

Same applies to thief staff, best ST and aoe weapon.

I’ve just decided that I won’t spend money until ANet takes GS Reapers seriously in PVE, Blizzard is quite happy with that decision as is my main spec Blood/ Off Spec Unholy Death Knight.

It’s great to be able to play a ‘Reaper’ some where else and be accepted into raids.

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Depends on which form of DPS you’re referring to, like I said there are 2 kinds. Sustained (or Traditional) DPS is what Dagger excels at, it won’t burst but it’ll consistently do the same amount of damage each strike. GS falls under the Burst DPS category, meaning it unleashes all of its power up front then has to cooldown/reset before being able to do it again. Burst DPS weapons tend to be slow while packing an immediate punch, Sustained DPS weapons tend to be default weapons that crank out moderate damage consistently. “DPS” also means “Damage Per Second” (I’m aware you probably know this, I’m not patronizing you I’m explaining something just hear me out) which means the amount of damage you do PER second. GS is slow, and its damage is actually not much better, if you look at it that way that is. A full GS auto-chain takes 2 1/2 seconds, Dagger takes 1/4 (since there’s no delay listed for the first two Dagger autos, that means, to me, they’re instantaneous). The damage difference between both weapons is only 75-125, but taking into their attack speeds Dagger will get far more damage off before GS completes its first auto-chain. So in terms of DPS, Dagger has always reigned supreme. HOWEVER, in terms of raw power and doing the most immediate damage (Burst), GS is best.

Btw this is just me sharing my opinion and viewpoints on what ‘DPS’ means between the two weapons, I’m not a know-it-all and not claiming my opinion is fact (not about to tilt anyone on accident, this is a good community I don’t want to accidentally disrupt that). I clearly tend to play Reaper different from the rest of you and as such I know that makes my playstyle/input my own and nothing more. Btw I’m also basing these DPS ‘facts’ of mine off of other games as well, so my experiences with ‘DPS’ probably differs from yours.

Okami.7049:

snip

Oh when I say dps I use it as both damage per second and just overall damage in general. I have found, though some people seem to disagree, that greatsword auto does higher dps than dagger auto (dagger auto full chain takes 2.04s whereas greatsword takes 2.88s according to wiki). Then add other factors such as nightfall, gravedigger and traits like deathly chill, chilling nova and blood bond (which greatsword can trigger far more on its own) and greatswords damage really pushes ahead.

Zenith.7301:

snip

While we can speculate all we want about what the next espec will bring, one thing for sure is that we can’t use greatsword with it. So if you want to run power, you’ll have to take either dagger or axe. And I hope anet would make a new spec entirely condition based either.

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

snip

Oh when I say dps I use it as both damage per second and just overall damage in general. I have found, though some people seem to disagree, that greatsword auto does higher dps than dagger auto (dagger auto full chain takes 2.04s whereas greatsword takes 2.88s according to wiki). Then add other factors such as nightfall, gravedigger and traits like deathly chill, chilling nova and blood bond (which greatsword can trigger far more on its own) and greatswords damage really pushes ahead.

Zenith.7301:

snip

While we can speculate all we want about what the next espec will bring, one thing for sure is that we can’t use greatsword with it. So if you want to run power, you’ll have to take either dagger or axe. And I hope anet would make a new spec entirely condition based either.

I see what you mean now, my apologies for being so technical, I was speaking the weapons themselves not taking into account Traits. I personally tend to find myself forced out of GS (PvE) more often than Dagger simply because, once I lay down my abilities, I’m essentially just swinging a baseball bat. Dagger allows me to kite, and it lifesteals which allows me to camp it easier than GS. I guess it also comes down to your personal build, I’m running Spite/BM/Reaper with Wells and emphasis on getting my enemy to that 50% health mark quickly while being able to sustain myself with ease. Makes me super squishy, though, so that’s why I only use GS for burst and rely moreso on Dagger/WH.

Personally, I really hope Necros gain access to Sword sometime soon. I mean we’re already using Dagger and GS, why the heck can’t we use the middle-man? Torch sounds like it could be a good Condi-wep, and from what I hear we need more of those rather than Power atm.

Okami.7049:

snip

Oh aye, I was more talking straight damage, while all manner of things can happen in an actual fight.
Sword would be a lovely addition (sooooooooo many nice skins – I’d be spoiled for choice), though I think it would probably get the position of melee condi weapon.

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

snip

Oh aye, I was more talking straight damage, while all manner of things can happen in an actual fight.
Sword would be a lovely addition (sooooooooo many nice skins – I’d be spoiled for choice), though I think it would probably get the position of melee condi weapon.

I was thinking maybe Bleed or Torment personally, but Poison isn’t bad either. It’d give Condi Necros a melee option for when the enemy closes in on them, I would think. Power Reapers could probably put it to decent use as well.

Zenith.7301:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Why dagger? It’s a worthless weapon that should die. The only valuable skill on it is an autoattack and it can’t cleave worth a kitten .

By making dagger better than GS you force necro to choose between weapons whereas warrior and ele get their best single target and aoe weapons all in one weapon (staff and greatsword).

Same applies to thief staff, best ST and aoe weapon.

I dont think it is a good idea to let a weapon die and become useless.

Also why is it a bad thing to force the player to make a choice? In my opinion it is better then just having one weapon that rules all the others.

Muchacho.2390:

Zenith.7301:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Why dagger? It’s a worthless weapon that should die. The only valuable skill on it is an autoattack and it can’t cleave worth a kitten .

By making dagger better than GS you force necro to choose between weapons whereas warrior and ele get their best single target and aoe weapons all in one weapon (staff and greatsword).

Same applies to thief staff, best ST and aoe weapon.

I dont think it is a good idea to let a weapon die and become useless.

Also why is it a bad thing to force the player to make a choice? In my opinion it is better then just having one weapon that rules all the others.

Because other classes don’t have to make that choice, which would be a single handicap to necro for no reason whatsoever.

What are you going to do for ele? Every single weapon of their bur scepter cleaves, and we know that outside ele staff they don’t ever allow any ranged weapon to have greater DPS than melee weapons. Same goes for all warrior weapons and guardian weapons.

Only thief and necro have a melee weapon that doesn’t cleave 3+ targets.

If you make a weapon for necro purely for ST, necro is forced to carry both dagger and greatsword, completely removing flexibility of a ranged or support weapon to complement utility needs.

Zenith.7301:

Muchacho.2390:

Zenith.7301:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Why dagger? It’s a worthless weapon that should die. The only valuable skill on it is an autoattack and it can’t cleave worth a kitten .

By making dagger better than GS you force necro to choose between weapons whereas warrior and ele get their best single target and aoe weapons all in one weapon (staff and greatsword).

Same applies to thief staff, best ST and aoe weapon.

I dont think it is a good idea to let a weapon die and become useless.

Also why is it a bad thing to force the player to make a choice? In my opinion it is better then just having one weapon that rules all the others.

Because other classes don’t have to make that choice, which would be a single handicap to necro for no reason whatsoever.

What are you going to do for ele? Every single weapon of their bur scepter cleaves, and we know that outside ele staff they don’t ever allow any ranged weapon to have greater DPS than melee weapons. Same goes for all warrior weapons and guardian weapons.

Only thief and necro have a melee weapon that doesn’t cleave 3+ targets.

If you make a weapon for necro purely for ST, necro is forced to carry both dagger and greatsword, completely removing flexibility of a ranged or support weapon to complement utility needs.

Well i would argue this is a problem with the other professions. The other professions also should have to make choices.

Tell me whats the point of choices if one is always superior to the others?

Okami.7049:

Im going to point this out to you since you seem to have gotten it wrong in several threads now. GS has better DPS than dagger overall.

This entire post forgets that though the skills activation may be instant the animation is not. Over all like Lah said the dagger chain takes ~2.04 and the GS chain takes ~2.88s. 2-handed weapons average weapon strength is ~10% higher than 1-handed weapons. This means dagger does (0.9+0.7+1.2)/2.04=1.3725 coefficients per second while GS does (1.1*(1+1.2+1.4))/2.88=1.375 coefficients a second.

The life stealing at (4×0.0055)/2.04=~0.011 against (3×0.005)/2.88=~0.006 causes dagger to be ahead by about 0.0025 coefficients a second. But then because GS causes chill on its own you can stack 3~5 bleeds which pushes GS ahead. Also Gravedigger is a straight DPS increase over the autoattacks making GS even better.

Nightfall is better than locust swarm, even with leech. Locust ends up at (0.2+0.0055)x10 = 2.055 against nightfall at ((0.7*1.1)+0.055)x4=~3.102.

Lastly quickness and alacrity work better with GS and ends up accentuating the different between the two even further.

Sigmoid.7082:

Okami.7049:

Im going to point this out to you since you seem to have gotten it wrong in several threads now. GS has better DPS than dagger overall.

This entire post forgets that though the skills activation may be instant the animation is not. Over all like Lah said the dagger chain takes ~2.04 and the GS chain takes ~2.88s. 2-handed weapons average weapon strength is ~10% higher than 1-handed weapons. This means dagger does (0.9+0.7+1.2)/2.04=1.3725 coefficients per second while GS does (1.1*(1+1.2+1.4))/2.88=1.375 coefficients a second.

The life stealing at (4×0.0055)/2.04=~0.011 against (3×0.005)/2.88=~0.006 causes dagger to be ahead by about 0.0025 coefficients a second. But then because GS causes chill on its own you can stack 3~5 bleeds which pushes GS ahead. Also Gravedigger is a straight DPS increase over the autoattacks making GS even better.

Nightfall is better than locust swarm, even with leech. Locust ends up at (0.2+0.0055)x10 = 2.055 against nightfall at ((0.7*1.1)+0.055)x4=~3.102.

Lastly quickness and alacrity work better with GS and ends up accentuating the different between the two even further.

I’m going to point out that Lahmia and I have already discussed it and I’ve already agreed with him, so I’m not going to bother reading considering 1) that discussion is closed and 2) your opening sentence made you look like a jerk so I have no reason to give you the time of day. Not to mention at this point you’re too late anyways, I’ve already had further and deeper discussions with my buds on the matter and they’ve already ran the numbers by me. Regardless, it doesn’t change the fact that I view and use GS as a burst weapon while utilizing Dagger for Sustain. Not having any issues and having the time of my life. The topic at hand is ‘Why is GS Reaper Garbage?’ not ‘Which is better……..?’. If you want to debate between the two weapons, or share your opinion, then go for it but this isn’t the place for it.

Sad fact is most people who care about the little details are the ones who typically end up ‘tryhard elitists’, and typically are the ones who will segregate from the more casual, fun-loving players. Both weps have their pros and cons and uses, what one struggles at the other excels and vice versa. Now lets get back on topic and discuss GS Reaper and whether or not it’s garbage.

Pretend the next elite is torch.

If it is main hand, it will have a short range that does slightly more dps than AA. If it is off-hand…

Anchoku.8142:

Pretend the next elite is torch.

If it is main hand, it will have a short range that does slightly more dps than AA. If it is off-hand…

I think it will be an condition offhand. Since the theme of the leaked e-spec was mummy/sand etc. maybe we will get a new condition (e.g. desease) or atleast alot of blinds and bleeds.

Muchacho.2390:

Zenith.7301:

Muchacho.2390:

Zenith.7301:

Muchacho.2390:

Lahmia.2193:

Okami.7049:

Btw before anyone goes spouting nonsense about Dagger this Dagger that, I said BURST Power Weapon, Dagger is not ‘burst’ it’s ‘sustained’ damage. Meaning you’ll do consistent damage with it while GS is about swapping in, unloading your heavy hits and transitioning into Shroud or swapping back to Dagger. Dagger can be camped, in other words, GS typically can’t. Just wanted to point that out so no one takes what I’m saying the wrong way.

The irony of that statement being that, to obtain our highest dps setup in pve (I guess you were talking pve, if not, ignore the following), you actually have to camp greatsword. Switching to shroud or dagger is a dps loss.

Thats why it would be nice if dagger auto would get a damage buff like the thief dagger auto got one.

Why dagger? It’s a worthless weapon that should die. The only valuable skill on it is an autoattack and it can’t cleave worth a kitten .

By making dagger better than GS you force necro to choose between weapons whereas warrior and ele get their best single target and aoe weapons all in one weapon (staff and greatsword).

Same applies to thief staff, best ST and aoe weapon.

I dont think it is a good idea to let a weapon die and become useless.

Also why is it a bad thing to force the player to make a choice? In my opinion it is better then just having one weapon that rules all the others.

Because other classes don’t have to make that choice, which would be a single handicap to necro for no reason whatsoever.

What are you going to do for ele? Every single weapon of their bur scepter cleaves, and we know that outside ele staff they don’t ever allow any ranged weapon to have greater DPS than melee weapons. Same goes for all warrior weapons and guardian weapons.

Only thief and necro have a melee weapon that doesn’t cleave 3+ targets.

If you make a weapon for necro purely for ST, necro is forced to carry both dagger and greatsword, completely removing flexibility of a ranged or support weapon to complement utility needs.

Well i would argue this is a problem with the other professions. The other professions also should have to make choices.

Tell me whats the point of choices if one is always superior to the others?

Good luck getting a balance team — that can’t be bothered to fix one class in PvE for over 5 years and does “balance” patches every 6 months that amount to 95% tooltip poilish and 1-2 changes to a useless trait-- to overhaul the rest of the professions to nerf them to be in line with the necro.

I mean, this is the same balance team that buffed thief autoattacks by 30%+ despite that class having already some of the highest autoattack DPS, but also making staff auto outDPS Gravedigger spam.

That’s the level of incompetence/negligence we’re dealing with.

Okami.7049:

snip

No disrespect i just did the same thing you did just didn’t add any fluff like “you already know this but bare with me” when you explaining dps…it was 05:30..I am lazy but itw been 2 hours, i’ve had my coffee and Im properly awake now. As long as you are having fun but look things up before posting some things. The thing about cast time vs animation doesn’t come off very well when trying to make a point.
There isn’t much dagger excels at vs GS in pve, pvp is different, hence why i suggested buffing its AA so it fits against GS,somewhat, where Anet said it should.

And dont brand everyone who care about numbers or the small details a future “try hard elitist”. Some people just care about stuff like that whether they can help it or not.

Also the topic of the thread is more why necro isnt as good as other classes for damage, the title is misleading compared to the content of the first post. This thread is the place for debating between weapon types, traits, etc…just everything about why necro seems to be so far behind other classes for damage. There are some interesting arguments either way…im just more interested in what Anet is going to do come next balance patch

Sigmoid.7082:

Okami.7049:

snip

No disrespect i just did the same thing you did just didn’t add any fluff like “you already know this but bare with me” when you explaining dps…it was 05:30..I am lazy but itw been 2 hours, i’ve had my coffee and Im properly awake now. As long as you are having fun but look things up before posting some things. The thing about cast time vs animation doesn’t come off very well when trying to make a point.
There isn’t much dagger excels at vs GS in pve, pvp is different, hence why i suggested buffing its AA so it fits against GS,somewhat, where Anet said it should.

And dont brand everyone who care about numbers or the small details a future “try hard elitist”. Some people just care about stuff like that whether they can help it or not.

Also the topic of the thread is more why necro isnt as good as other classes for damage, the title is misleading compared to the content of the first post. This thread is the place for debating between weapon types, traits, etc…just everything about why necro seems to be so far behind other classes for damage. There are some interesting arguments either way…im just more interested in what Anet is going to do come next balance patch

I retract what I stated earlier, my apologies I misinterpreted what you were saying. I respect you for not stooping to my level after that rather childish outburst of mine. I’m no pro, I don’t typically run the tiny numbers instead I prefer to take a weapon out and test run it in an actual combat setting. It’s kind of the same thing as DPS Benchmark on a Golem vs. a Boss to me; the outcome is different depending on the scenario and if I like the feel of the weapon then the rest doesn’t matter to me. I was speaking from my personal experiences when I stated that ignorant ‘tryhard elitist’ stuff, guess you can say I’ve be exposed to far too much of the negative types in many MMOs. Warped my mentality on that matter, and that comment clearly did nothing but stain my credibility.

As far as the state of Necro in general, I feel like it could be in a better place but it’s not as bad as it seems. Being the selfish class, if we can’t find help we can make our own and it is perfect for those, like me, who like to roam and do stuff on our own with random team-ups along the way. I’ve tried Thief and Revenant, who are ‘supposed’ to be better from what I’ve heard, but the way they play and function just don’t synergize well with me. Necro itself could definitely use some buffs, the last nerf we got wasn’t needed in my opinion. I was suggesting to Lahmia that we gain access to Sword at some time, I honestly don’t see why we wouldn’t and being another One-Handed weapon would be pretty cool. Personally I’d prefer it to be Power-focused but even if it deals Condis I could probably still make it work. I hear Torch is next though, sounds pretty interesting though I’m not too excited for this whole ‘Sand/Mummy’ theme incoming. I’m more of the lifesteal kind of Reaper as you can see below.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vREQNBIhF6kGRolGsoGwxGgeTsgLYQXtAQLI+K+FHjTFhmQVA-TBiFABkittenAA4IAY0+DE8AAOTfgeKBHU9njU+FA4A43+23fDc+5nf+5n3v/+7v/+bA-e

Again, I know I was out of line and could’ve been more tactful on my end instead of just spurting nonsense. Only fools seek confrontation.

For people who say that dagger is a dps weapon. I did some tests with my necro full ascended and the dps very small. Even the reaper shroud got a tiny dps

I’m upping this topic because i think it would be better to get a true balance update instead of a useless update to change the cost of ascended weapon….

On a personal note, I use my dagger/warhorn for WvW when I’m going midline wells. I think I’ve sentenced more people to death with Dark Pact than any other skill I’ve used.