Guild Wars 2

After reading tons of posts and complaints of necros being underpowered and broken. Yet hearing everyone else shouting they they are overpowered. I think I have nailed down why necros are so unhappy half the time.

I have been playing necro since launch and dabbled in a few other classes, but I see one distinct difference between a necro and everyone else. It’s that a necro is not that satisfying to play. Playing a worrier with a a 2h sword is immensely satisfying, knowing you’re a wrecking ball. A Mesmer has so many fun and interesting ways to play it. Thieves can wreck you in a pvp 1v1 and provide awesome utility. Guardians can be decked out for attack, and still be able to soak up most incoming damage. and so on and so forth. However where is that “Fun” aspect in the necro? for most, unless you spec exactly right, it’s not there. They seem a super versatile class, but don’t really excel at anything in particular. There are barely any moments where you feel like you are on top of things. I tends to feel like a bit of a struggle on every encounter you face. rarely do you win a 1v1 in things like pvp and WvW and unless you are in a zurg, any passing warrior, guardian, thief, Mesmer, ect can just outlast any burst you have and slaughter you. The only time that I feel like I can easily win are normal PvE fights. And that’s not what I want, it’s PvP that has been the lich pin of GW games and If I’m not feeling useful or good in that, then there is a big problem.

I’t is a bit late and I don’t feel like I articulated my point to well, but I’ll leave up to you guys to discuss. Shoot me down if i’m wrong, I’d love that so I can figure out what I’ve been doing wrong this whole time.

It’s similar with any class. If you don’t play to their strengths (i.e., find and use the strong builds), then you’re not going to be very effective.

For example, look at the elementalist forum. Yet, in sPvP my dagger/dagger support build is often top (except on the Capricorn map, because I tend to defend points on this map). My elementalist does well because I build it to make use of its strengths (i.e., strong healing, strong support, strong ability to escape, strong mobility, CC + burst).

I find that the Necro is very strong with conditions (e.g., blood mark does close to 4k damage over time if you have high enough condition damage/duration). I don’t believe Necros benefit much with precision though. Hence, I use Carrion’s Amulet. I also find that I die easily to range if I don’t have minions. Hence, I use minions (mainly Flesh Golem and Shadow Fiend) to take projectile hits for me. Yes, minion AI needs to be fixed, but when minions work, they’re very strong. In any case, I find that my Necro can quickly dispatch any target (thanks to the combination of conditions + direct damage when minions work) and I think that’s quite satisfying. The multiple interrupts makes me feel like I have quite a bit of control of the battles too (i.e., 2 fears, flesh golem knockdown, and warhorn daze).

I really enjoy Necromancer, but I can’t deny it has so many major bugs and is, in general, much weaker than most other professions except Engineer, which is equally in need of some love.

I also like that we’re the underdog profession rather than Flavour of the Month, such as Guardian or Thief.

As Stormy O stated, if we play to our strengths I don’t feel that underpowered at all. What is our bread and butter? Epidemic. There have been countless number of times (in WvW) where after condition stacking one person, especially an npc surrounded by invaders and popping epidemic. The white numbers are everywhere.

Even in PvE, I feel the necros really shine and the conditions they can put out. I was following a hybrid burst/sustained damage build (scep/dag, axe/focus) that goes back and forth between stacking bleeds and stacking vulnerability. What do I do after all those conditions are stacked? Epidemic. Sure if there are other mobs near by I’ll aggro a few more, but by the time I’m ready to deal with them they’ll have a good chunk of health gone.

In sPvP I run scep/dag, staff build focusing on fear and condition duration. With it I can usually hold my own point (that is if I can land my marks :P). There have been on occasion where I’ve been able to 2v1 with the help of Epidemic and my flesh golem. (Easiest way to land marks? Knock down or root!)

All in all, sure Necros may feel underpowered the most, but I don’t think the fun is missing, especially if you know that the necro playstyle is about dots and spreading dem dots.

I’ll have to disagree with the OP as well. The only reason I’m a little frustrated at times is because of the major bugs that affect us.

Don’t get me wrong. Epidemic is not bad however, people make it look much better than it really is. There is so much condition removing on and people need to be close together. Also, usually burst kills, not conditions.

Siraithor.1629:

After reading tons of posts and complaints of necros being underpowered and broken. Yet hearing everyone else shouting they they are overpowered. I think I have nailed down why necros are so unhappy half the time.

I have been playing necro since launch and dabbled in a few other classes, but I see one distinct difference between a necro and everyone else. It’s that a necro is not that satisfying to play. Playing a worrier with a a 2h sword is immensely satisfying, knowing you’re a wrecking ball. A Mesmer has so many fun and interesting ways to play it. Thieves can wreck you in a pvp 1v1 and provide awesome utility. Guardians can be decked out for attack, and still be able to soak up most incoming damage. and so on and so forth. However where is that “Fun” aspect in the necro? for most, unless you spec exactly right, it’s not there. They seem a super versatile class, but don’t really excel at anything in particular. There are barely any moments where you feel like you are on top of things. I tends to feel like a bit of a struggle on every encounter you face. rarely do you win a 1v1 in things like pvp and WvW and unless you are in a zurg, any passing warrior, guardian, thief, Mesmer, ect can just outlast any burst you have and slaughter you. The only time that I feel like I can easily win are normal PvE fights. And that’s not what I want, it’s PvP that has been the lich pin of GW games and If I’m not feeling useful or good in that, then there is a big problem.

I’t is a bit late and I don’t feel like I articulated my point to well, but I’ll leave up to you guys to discuss. Shoot me down if i’m wrong, I’d love that so I can figure out what I’ve been doing wrong this whole time.

I can’t agree at all. As you iv’e been playing necro since 06:00 at launch day, NEVER have i felt bored, underpowered , overpowered , dull , slow or mainly unintressted in my class. I would say the opposite. I love the Necromancer over all classes and i have all except Elementalist. I know that Necros ain’t burst damage like Warriors / thief e.tc
But i love running around plagueing everyone! I got no problem 1v1 killing in PvP either. I mainly put my condition spec to full use and slowly kill them before they even have a chance to burst me.

My Necromancer is my greatest character. The only thing i feel that we lack are some kitten AOEs. The marks aren’t really that reliable =) But overall i love it.

I love the necromancer class… for PVE. WvW isn’t fun as a necromancer from my experience. I can soak up conditions, where the only reward seems to be the increased chance of winning. Or, I can unload/spread conditions onto the enemy force. This is great and all, but it’s so easy to remove/convert conditions and this class doesn’t offer any of the important ones (confusion is non-existent and retaliation is minimal) for WvW.

As a necromancer you typically end up stuck at 900 range trying to attack enemies, or you can stick to the staff for the extra range. Having one decent option for that range is kind of disappointing.

Bleed and poison seem to have little value in WvW, and that’s pretty much our bread and butter. Beyond that we simply make a good support class (again, WvW).

Of course, WvW isn’t the only aspect of the game.

My only gripes are bugs and that there is no real synergy for mixed builds (traits and utilites feel set up like forcing you to get the full line and at least 2 more of the same type of utility).

If you don’t think necros have problem it’s probably because you haven’t tried 5v5 tournaments.

Necros have a lot of micro issues but when you look at the big picture items it looks like this:
-Necros have no hard burst
-Necros have virtually no ‘escapes’ only ‘outs / defensive cooldowns’
-Necros rely heavily on Death Shroud for utility and survivability but start with an empty bar and take a long time to charge it

Your options are to build extremely tanky and do poor damage and you basically end up kiting the enemy team in circles with your fingers crossed your pub team isn’t completely incapable of doing damage, or you get ignored and feel like a waste of space.
Or you build extremely damaging and get trained by a dagger thief in 5 seconds because you have no defenses and your life force pool is 0 because the match just started, GLHF.

Compare to other classes:
A warrior has no escapes but extremely high burst so they are feared rather than trained to death. They also have a lot of access to stuns and roots (hard CC) which we do not.

A thief is very squishy but has many escapes through various stealth and shadowstep abilities, and built-in evades to lower incoming damage while they apply dots AND burst.

If we go FULL burst we can hit as high as ~4k with Lich Form 1, I haven’t seen anything hit harder than that. A warrior’s evis can hit for 8-9k. A thief’s heartseeker or backstab 5-8k. Both can do good condition damage while dealing these numbers.

And the idea of us being tethered to signet of spite somehow balancing this out is laughable.

We are lots of fun in 8v8 and WVW when we can sit in the back behind a wall of death and poke at people.

Bugs and lack of effective builds, useless traits.

We are Mice Tier:

http://www.pic-upload.de/view-16129007/SOqzJ.jpg.html

Outside of Epidemic we do not have anything that makes us special in any way. After BWE1 ANet decided to nerf axe power builds to the ground and since then they do not care at all bring us in line pvp wise. When you look at competitive teams that had necros in their lineups before, if you watch at their streams these days the necro disappeared and has been replaced by elementalists or engineers. Look at Alpha Collective, Team Paradigm you name it. We have nearly no Build Diversity and even the Condition Mancer is not very strong pressure wise. We have so many weapon issues, Axe damage is pathetic, main hand dagger has issues, staff nr 1 is really the dumbest attack ingame when you look at the speed of the projectile. This profession has so many issues in pvp and i am not sure if ANet is capable and willing to iron them out.

1. Bugs

2.a. Clumsy mechanics (pet vanish when you change forms, Flesh golems vanishes when you enter the water etc), getting life force is a pain in the kitten sometimes

2.b. Ill-designed mechanics: DS helps only really power builds condition builds are left in the dust, minions die easily and are not worth the precious utility slots

3. Lousy coding (Minion AI = Minion Artificial Idiocy)

4. Lack of dps compared to other classes – despite the change in Blood is Power something is missing, condition build also produces mediocre results because conditions a. cannot keep up with the insane direct and burst damage flying around b. they get often cleansed anyway

That’s it more or less in a nutshell

But no worries A-Net, I am sure you do not really care. However, as a customer I am also not caring (soon) anymore. 12th October I can play X-Com – which actually rewards teamplay between my troopers

My minion army spec (0/0/30/30/20) works decently in PVE, but in sPVP/tPVP that spec doesn’t work jack squat, I’ve been trying power/crit/condition and other builds and they’ve all been meh even with 2Kish power, ~1300 condition, 47% crit, 2200+ armor and 30K health- but that’s also due to some traits not working.

@Stormy O… i read up to 4k bleed part. Then I realized you never touched a necro in your life.
I’ve yet to see even a terrible player take half of BPs damage. They either die long before it runs its duration or in case of decent players gets removed as soon as you slap enough bleeds that they become a problem.
And bah I wont even bother arguing with anything or reading. Necros are broken its a fact and they aren’t fun because they aren’t even sub-par unless you spec just for that 1 specific thing that still sucks in everything other then pvp. Bleh.

Endion.9601:

As Stormy O stated, if we play to our strengths I don’t feel that underpowered at all. What is our bread and butter? Epidemic. There have been countless number of times (in WvW) where after condition stacking one person, especially an npc surrounded by invaders and popping epidemic. The white numbers are everywhere.

Even in PvE, I feel the necros really shine and the conditions they can put out. I was following a hybrid burst/sustained damage build (scep/dag, axe/focus) that goes back and forth between stacking bleeds and stacking vulnerability. What do I do after all those conditions are stacked? Epidemic. Sure if there are other mobs near by I’ll aggro a few more, but by the time I’m ready to deal with them they’ll have a good chunk of health gone.

In sPvP I run scep/dag, staff build focusing on fear and condition duration. With it I can usually hold my own point (that is if I can land my marks :P). There have been on occasion where I’ve been able to 2v1 with the help of Epidemic and my flesh golem. (Easiest way to land marks? Knock down or root!)

All in all, sure Necros may feel underpowered the most, but I don’t think the fun is missing, especially if you know that the necro playstyle is about dots and spreading dem dots.

Epidemic was fixed. Now its not infinite range. So good luck getting in range to use it and actually surviving the barrage.
Need some more “proper” DS usage me thinks.

He’s right though, it’s not that necro’s are super weak (we’re not super epic OP, but not terrible), we just have no interesting variety or builds, and I’m holding out hoping that Anet will get around to it.

Knote.2904:

He’s right though, it’s not that necro’s are super weak (we’re not super epic OP, but not terrible), we just have no interesting variety or builds, and I’m holding out hoping that Anet will get around to it.

Ok, then I will tell you a little story what I did today:
1. I specced into a condition build.
2. Watched for a melee speced rogue with dagger/pistol
3. Dueld him on range and used only dots

Note: I wanted to see who makes the dps race so I didn’t hide (nor did he)

Well, guess who won by a big margin? I got critted for 2-4 k.

One class which is, as a light armour class, a ranged class and a medium armour class which is specialized (here specced) on melee and the latter wins…wow, just wow.

It also shows that direct and burst dps are simply out-of-whack compared to condition damage…which can be cleant on top it.

HiSaZuL.2843:

@Stormy O… i read up to 4k bleed part. Then I realized you never touched a necro in your life.
I’ve yet to see even a terrible player take half of BPs damage. They either die long before it runs its duration or in case of decent players gets removed as soon as you slap enough bleeds that they become a problem.
And bah I wont even bother arguing with anything or reading. Necros are broken its a fact and they aren’t fun because they aren’t even sub-par unless you spec just for that 1 specific thing that still sucks in everything other then pvp. Bleh.

I don’t think you’re using the necro effectively if all you’re stacking is bleeds. With the staff alone, necros can deal bleed, poison, chill, weakness and fear. They also have access to cripple and blind. Many classes can’t remove all conditions at once; many can only remove 3 at one time with a long recharge. And if you understand the way the removal of conditions work (i.e., the ordering), then you should have no problem keeping bleeds on or having them last their entire duration.

@Stormy O.7025

The problem Stormy O is that it is very difficult to take what you say seriously when you make up numbers.

In SPVP with max condition damage Mark of Blood does 2.8k damage not close to 4k.

Lets do a little math. 117damage/sec per tick. So 3 ticks per sec over 8 sec.

117*3*8=2808 The exact same thing that the tool tip says. Even if we add in the might from BiP.

(117+17.5)*3*8 = 3.228. again not near 4k.

So if you want people to listen to what you have to say, don’t make up numbers.

It seems you’re unaware of +condition durations, which I did mention in my above post. My blood marks causes bleed for 13 seconds.

There are several runes to increase the bleed duration. There’s a trait to increase bleed duration. And the power line increases condition duration.

Add the direct damage from blood mark too (albeit it’s not much) and it’s not difficult to get the damage to be over 4k.

On other professions, weapon skills feel like my primary abilities, and traits secondary, to be used as the situation warrants. With the necro, it feels like the other way around. That’s just the feeling I get, so maybe there needs to be a better balance between trait and weapon utility (I’m looking at you dagger and axe).

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

@Stormy O.7025

The problem Stormy O is that it is very difficult to take what you say seriously when you make up numbers.

In SPVP with max condition damage Mark of Blood does 2.8k damage not close to 4k.

Lets do a little math. 117damage/sec per tick. So 3 ticks per sec over 8 sec.

117*3*8=2808 The exact same thing that the tool tip says. Even if we add in the might from BiP.

(117+17.5)*3*8 = 3.228. again not near 4k.

So if you want people to listen to what you have to say, don’t make up numbers.

You should now slap him in the head with hemo doesn’t work with spite duration. Then remind him how runes actually work. Then enlighten about light combos and conditions. And the fact that just because necros have no finishers doesn’t mean rest of classes are in same hole and don’t have combos to blow all your conditions out of the window faster then you can auto attack with dagger.

Look, if you refuse to believe conditions can last more than 1 second, then it’s maybe time you try a different class/build that don’t use conditions. Several people have managed to be successful with conditions.

Why are defending your argument with what someone else managed to do?…. You were told you either have no idea or your math is bad due to the fact that your numbers are pulled out from the clouds.

Stormy O.7025:

It seems you’re unaware of +condition durations, which I did mention in my above post. My blood marks causes bleed for 13 seconds.

There are several runes to increase the bleed duration. There’s a trait to increase bleed duration. And the power line increases condition duration.

Add the direct damage from blood mark too (albeit it’s not much) and it’s not difficult to get the damage to be over 4k.

Post your build or its not happening. So go full condition damage and full spite that tops out mark of blood at 3.8k. Now why you would go spite, no one will ever know but ok.

And yes I understand what condition duration means. Too bad you don’t. Duration is crap in pvp. Unless your playing scrubs it will never last that long.

Still don’t see how your getting it to last that long. Even with armor runes it does not get to 13 seconds. And like some one stated they don’t all stack.

I think the big issue of necros stem from PvP. I think with WvW, sPvP, and tPvP people are having a harder time placing them… or placing them against another class that wouldn’t do the necro’s “job” all the better.

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

Stormy O.7025:

It seems you’re unaware of +condition durations, which I did mention in my above post. My blood marks causes bleed for 13 seconds.

There are several runes to increase the bleed duration. There’s a trait to increase bleed duration. And the power line increases condition duration.

Add the direct damage from blood mark too (albeit it’s not much) and it’s not difficult to get the damage to be over 4k.

Post your build or its not happening. So go full condition damage and full spite that tops out mark of blood at 3.8k. Now why you would go spite, no one will ever know but ok.

And yes I understand what condition duration means. Too bad you don’t. Duration is crap in pvp. Unless your playing scrubs it will never last that long.

Still don’t see how your getting it to last that long. Even with armor runes it does not get to 13 seconds. And like some one stated they don’t all stack.

You only need 50% condition duration to get MoB up to 12 seconds, which will top 4200 bleeding damage. You can do that fairly easily with 0 points into Spite.

Additionally, I am not sure this if this is a l33t tPvP thread or not, but conditions go the full duration in WvW pretty often.

Quote Siraithor "rarely do you win a 1v1 in things like pvp and WvW "

I don’t know where to start here. I’ve spent all of 2 matches in SPvP since launch, the lack of life force there is definitely an issue, so I won’t comment on that. However in WvW, as a scepter/dagger conditionmancer, 1v1 I am the victor 9 out of 10 times. I don’t know what you’re doing wrong, but if you’re almost never coming out on top in a 1v1 there, there must be some fundamental errors you’re making, and not only those related to necromancer skills. (ex: dodging at the wrong times, therefore wasting them) I can only suggest completely rethinking how you play your necro. For example, even though we’re a ranged class, I prefer to be fairly close to my opponent in 1v1’s. I use cripples and chills to keep the melee’s just out of melee range, and when I dodge, I not only avoid a powerful attack skill, but I also dodge close to where they will be, and take advantage of ‘Mark of Evasion’. (this tactic obviously won’t work for all opponents; you’ll need to adapt quickly, on the fly) Granted, I’m almost fully geared in exotic, so many players I will defeat easily, but I’ve been in a lot of good, close fights vs geared opponent recently, and I still have a high success rate; it just goes down to the wire.

Talk to some successful necro’s who aren’t the pessimists you find in these forums for their suggestions and try them out. There are a lot of necro skills that still need to be fixed, and I expect these fixes won’t come without some nerfs, as I don’t expect ANet to make our class much more powerful than it currently is. More versatility in effective builds is definitely needed, and I expect that is what we’ll see in the future.

I loved necros and was drawn to the aesthetics and concept behind their designs. Played it in all the BWEs, still play it from time to time even now.

However, I am upset that all our “strengths” when played to said strengths, are outperformed by Mesmers taking a similar role too. Phantasms > Minions, Staff/Sharper Images > Our condition build.

Necromancers are simply too pigeonholed right now and due to being balanced around DS, we were gutted in a lot of departments (mobility, stun breaks, damage). It’s a design that sounded good on paper but played out terribly both due to bugs and how skills function as of now.

I dunno about “We”, I love Necromancer, yes some bugs need to be fixed and they could do with a few tune up here or there, but kitten I love PVPing and my Class in general.

Bugs are the most important issue holding this class back, and until the bugs are fixed not one of us can speak to whether or not this class design works. Second, Poison and Bleeds may need some revision. The Condition damage coefficient for Burning is .25, while that for Poison is .1 and Bleeding is .05? Engineers, Elementalists, and Guardians benefit from the high damage coefficient for Burning.

I love this class. I’m having a lot of fun. I’m having fun because I feel successful. I’m not throwing myself into Bleeds and Poisons while ignoring Power. The math doesn’t work out for that approach, as far as I can see.

I’m not trying to force the class into some preconceived notion of what a Necromancer is supposed to be. The difference between Light, Medium, and Heavy armor is small in this game, your health pool is huge, the more conditions they throw on you the more powerful you become, and your class defining ability extends your health pool immensely. You are a tank.

A Mesmer is not a tank. If Mesmer abilities look so good, then you are hearing the call of the purple butterflies. Purple butterflies. Embrace them. Sing to them from behind your velvet mask. Be fabulous.

@Asmodean

So you compared a weak direct dmg, condition auto attack to a high DPS direct dmg melee weapon?

Dagger Necro versus Dagger thief would’ve been a better comparison…

On top of that, outside of Necro dagger, Necro’s aren’t meant to be auto attacking for dmg, we rotate spells.

Lumines.3916:

I loved necros and was drawn to the aesthetics and concept behind their designs. Played it in all the BWEs, still play it from time to time even now.

However, I am upset that all our “strengths” when played to said strengths, are outperformed by Mesmers taking a similar role too. Phantasms > Minions, Staff/Sharper Images > Our condition build.

Necromancers are simply too pigeonholed right now and due to being balanced around DS, we were gutted in a lot of departments (mobility, stun breaks, damage). It’s a design that sounded good on paper but played out terribly both due to bugs and how skills function as of now.

Yeah, I’ve been playing mesmer/necro since beta and still can got on the mesmer with a condition build, or phantasm build, or power/burst build, or control/support build kitten around in pvp and just sob about how Mesmers are better necro’s than necro’s are.

And yes, mesmer’s can definately tank, I’ve messed around with a couple crazy Mesmer bunker builds.

instant coffee and asmodean have the right idea.

honestly i feel like my non-condition warrior 1H sword stacks more bleeds than my necro.

Sorry people, but stormy o is correct, my blood mark gets close to 4k damage, and I haven’t even finished making my gear, 10 second bleed for 3k plus an intial hit of 700 which gets it pretty close to 4k, that’s with a lv 70 staff and gear, so imagine if you actually get the gear for it plus the issue most people are having is that they’re not used to dark class types, I’ve been gaming for years now and in all the games I’ve played the dark types dot (damage over time) we don’t kill quickly, we’re a painfully slow and mathematical killing machine. If you want to kill people quickly, use a dagger or an axe or better yet go theif. I myself am setting my necro to use both staff/scepter spec and a dagger spec, I LOVE the dark class because it’s a challenge, it’s not a warrior where all you gotta do is get some gear, couple melee weapons, then find someone in cloth and beat the kitten out them.
I’m the oh hey mr.warrior tink tink you got me qq 3 seconds later oh looky…you’re on the floor bish ^^ <—- that’s the necromancer way.
Oh btw, I don’t use the minions, Well of Corruption and Well of Suffering, they’re really strong for doing burst damage, and in pvp WoC will convert enemy player’s buffs into debuffs (might to weakness, armor to vulnerability, etc.) so if you’re doing PvP look at wells they’re good for stacking damage.

I think people in this post are missing the point. Its what i hear in every defence post to a thread “no we’re fine if you do this exact build you’ll be good”. This is however avoiding the problem of the fact you HAVE to build certain ways to be effective. I feel a little bit more versility on the more polished professions (ones that existed first) gaurdian/theif/warrior. The less developed ones “necro/mesmer/eng” having more issues. Even still i find mesmer AND engineer to have more options of play style atm than necro. What about vampire necro? Direct damage dagger or axe necro? There are traits in place FOR other play styles…they just are weaker less reliable or just bugged.

My first main was an engineer, i do not fear conditionmancers as i always keep up two ways to wipe conditions off myself and i do more burst and control than most necros i fight….similiarly when playing my gaurdian (i have almost one of each class i play regularly in spvp). Also 4k on a dot sounds neat untill you consider most classes can do that with one attack instantly…or 2 attacks almost instantly with a very short cd.

I dont think conditionmancer is bad however, but its easily dealt with by someone who sees a necro (i just assume everyone is..seems you never see a necromancer NOT holding a staff/scepter). So this is a poor situation imo, because it locks the class down to a certain play style instead of opening it up to others. Every class has the problem to a degree, i just find it to be a heavier problem with this profession.

conditionmancer/tankyself healing mancer seems to be all i see in spvp. The occasionaly minion master but its not as good as it should be….fix the bugs and it might be.

Siraithor.1629:

I have been playing necro since launch and dabbled in a few other classes, but I see one distinct difference between a necro and everyone else. It’s that a necro is not that satisfying to play. Playing a worrier with a a 2h sword is immensely satisfying, knowing you’re a wrecking ball. A Mesmer has so many fun and interesting ways to play it. Thieves can wreck you in a pvp 1v1 and provide awesome utility. Guardians can be decked out for attack, and still be able to soak up most incoming damage. and so on and so forth. However where is that “Fun” aspect in the necro? for most, unless you spec exactly right, it’s not there.

Now, I’m not going to talk about power or our strengths or weakness compared to what some other profession can do. I’m going to talk about the feel of the necromancer and this touches on how I feel about it.

For me the “lack of fun” can be attributed in large to our weapon skills, they do the job but the abilities feel very similar. Lets take the staff as a case in point, sure the marks are very useful but you have one weapon with 4 similar feeling abilities with completely identical mechanics. While elementalist and mesmer weapon skills have them leaping in and rolling out of action it feels like necromancers are left plodding about saying, “hey guys! Wait for me!” (That mental image is probably not helped by the fact that my charr necromancer looks slightly out of shape )

Now, I know we have access to cripples and immobilisation and in some situations they’re superior to the flashier leaps and rolls, but it all seems very workmanlike compared to the other classes.

Some people are no doubt reading that thinking “if that’s how you feel then why not just play an elementalist or mesmer?” I already do play them and while I do enjoy necromancer (and want to love it) despite the plodding pace, I do feel the profession lacks flair and I’d like to see them add some… pizazz to the profession.

And allow us to wield an off-hand axe.

Fix the nearly 100 (noted) bugs with the class’s mechanics, greater than any other profession (even several of them combined), and I believe Necromancer would be considerably stronger.

The problem is that ANet is weakening the skills, destroying the ability to make use of the class’s core mechanic more and more with each update (remove means of LF gain, remove power, nerf skills, lower the survivability, etc etc) and just will not take the time to tend to the bugs.

That said, we are simply getting weaker and weaker. Good Necros still manage to win, but if that effort was applied with another class, those same people would be much stronger simply by flawed design.

I predict yet another blow in the downward trend of Necromancers with the next profession update.

I haven’t been wrong once so far since BWE1 (where we were at our best – but still not quite to par). I welcome ANet to try and prove me wrong just once for a change.

Btw… 4k DoT (high end) vs 12k burst in 1 skill? Every class can fill every roll my kitten #8230; lol

The one thing I don’t get is how a single skill from other classes can do more damage than our DOTS do over 5, 10 or 30 seconds? If anything we should be doing SO MUCH more damage over time than anyone. Isn’t that what balance is all about?

If someone else can do 3k in 1 INSTANT hit, our dot should be doing at least double that total if it takes, say, 5 seconds. Right? Then add in how dots can be easily purged and something is completely out of whack.

Josher.9612:

The one thing I don’t get is how a single skill from other classes can do more damage than our DOTS do over 5, 10 or 30 seconds? If anything we should be doing SO MUCH more damage over time than anyone. Isn’t that what balance is all about?

If someone else can do 3k in 1 INSTANT hit, our dot should be doing at least double that total if it takes, say, 5 seconds. Right? Then add in how dots can be easily purged and something is completely out of whack.

The reason our abilites work like this is they are balanced around the fact we are not mitigated by toughness or armor with condition damage. So if you do 115 dot damage to one guy , you will do the same damage to the guy next to him. In theory this makes us relatively powerful. It should make us perfect opposites to warriors and such who have high armor + toughness builds. However in practice it really does not seem like it stacks up. Especially when , as you say, we can be bursted down in in a matter of seconds yet it takes our ‘unmitigated’ conditions twice if not three times as long to kill an opponent.
I really wish that if Anet wants to balance our condition damage ( and subsequently our HP/toughness builds) around something like this they would make sure our damage was at least moderate or higher than it was now.

Honestly, I find condition builds to be incredibly boring. It’s probably the single most uninteresting style of combat, and it really jives with the intense and fast action the combat system offers. I really want to go power, minions, wells or something that makes you feel like you’re directly involved in the fight.

If I can deal 12k damage instantaneously THROUGH armor and protection skills, but your “unmitigated” damage deals 4k over 30 seconds (by that time, I’ll have killed you 5x over again and just pushed 1 button and all those conditions you tried so hard to stack on me are suddenly gone)… that is a balancing point how again, Teknomancer?

The fact they go through the defenses is meaningless if even after doing that, they’re 1/4 or less of the damage dealt by other skills AFTER mitigation.

Enerjak
I didn’t say it was a good idea of balance or that it was 100% the reason they did it . It’s just my opinion of how condition damage got balanced the way it is. Also further in my post I also address that this particular type of balancing ( if it is how and why they did it) is not working with pretty much the same example you give.
So while no one LIKES how we work out currently, I am offering what I think is the explanation as to how our class ended up like it did.

Happy Thirsty Thursday
Madame Moorshade Teknomancer.

Teknomancer.8475:

Enerjak
I didn’t say it was a good idea of balance or that it was 100% the reason they did it . It’s just my opinion of how condition damage got balanced the way it is. Also further in my post I also address that this particular type of balancing ( if it is how and why they did it) is not working with pretty much the same example you give.
So while no one LIKES how we work out currently, I am offering what I think is the explanation as to how our class ended up like it did.

Happy Thirsty Thursday
Madame Moorshade Teknomancer.

I did read further into the post, and you’re correct. My apologies.

While that may be their reasoning for doing so, every other class in the game has the capacity of some hefty condition stacking, not just Necromancers. That said, they get the best of both worlds… conditions AND burst… and survivability… and utility…

Comparing the mechanic to Engineer, Warrior, or Guardian is just asinine in my opinion (I would have included Elementalist, but 12k HP to our 28k is worth noting).

Not to mention that the Thief is capable of stealing a fear from the Fear Specialty class of the game that lasts 3x as long as any of their fears – and is AoE (even when traited into fears… a 1 second fear is still only 1.5 seconds with 50% additional duration).

Necromancer just seems a profession the devs tried to make suck at everything, but possible to touch every field.

Ranger and Mesmer pets are superior.

Guardian and Thief conditions are on par with greater burst output.

The class has no burst output to speak of (whatever “good” numbers you can hit on your Necro, I promise my Warrior will trump you every single time and without exception).

Survivability took a major hit when we lost a reliable way to gain life force and now is trumped by Warriors and Guardians.

Utility is trumped 10x over again by Elementalist, Guardian, and Mesmer.

Elites are unspecialized (if you’re not an MM and using anything but Lich Form, you’re nerfing yourself – and even Lich Form is immediately neutralized by Moa Form, cannot enter death shroud, laughable damage output, no reliable conditions to stack, and has no sustainability on a long cooldown).

Every other class without exception trumps at CC (fear is 1-2 seconds max even when traited, and only a Staff and Death Shroud inflict it reliably with long cooldowns and we actually GIVE our enemy a fear that lasts 3x longer than our own in the Theif’s steal – no other CC other than chill/cripple available which is trumped by other classes).

Almost no movement skills other than Spectral Walk, which is so specialized that it’s silly to try to fit into many staple builds.

AoE versatility trumped by Elementalist Staff, Guardian Greatsword, Guardian Hammer, Warrior Greatsword, Thief shortbow, Engineers with EVERYTHING but pistols, etc.

No terrain control…

It makes you stop and wonder… is there anything the Necromancer does that is superior – or at least on par – with the other professions?

Or more importantly – is there anything the Necromancer does that is so greatly superior to the other classes that these shortcomings are forgivable?

Quote Teknomancer: ``The reason our abilites work like this is they are balanced around the fact we are not mitigated by toughness or armor with condition damage. So if you do 115 dot damage to one guy , you will do the same damage to the guy next to him.``

This isn`t true. DOT`s used to be that way, but now the damage per tick is affected by toughness. (I`m assuming it`s toughness anyway. The damage per tick changes from player to player)

Enerjak.2475:

While that may be their reasoning for doing so, every other class in the game has the capacity of some hefty condition stacking, not just Necromancers. That said, they get the best of both worlds… conditions AND burst… and survivability… and utility…

This is so very true Enerjak. I have had this conversation so many times over with my engineer and warrior buddies that it at this point is like beating a dead horse with them. It is hard to explain to other classes that our class does not have the same burst or conditions available to us. Most of the time they will laugh and say things like " Well you can survive like 3 or 4 people whacking on you for X amount of time, whereas I would be dead" .
The direction that I believe Anet wanted to take this class, was a great idea. Our implementation however, is just plain horrible.
I still love my necro though, don’t know why.

Salutations fellow plague spreaders!

I hear your woes and disdains, and a lot of them hold the weight of truth, but there is hope!

And it comes in the personified form of one gamer named, Ex Force.

He’s a true necromancer and plays in many competitive tournaments, as well as playing other classes, and has a true feel for this class.

His youtube page, housing all the builds, can be found here:
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#ccVcz9mmLnwMmLnwM0xxa0MkqMVkz

His most up to date conditionmancer build can be found here:
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#ccVczm9cmLnwMmLnwM0xxa0MkqMVkc8kiT7khd7khk7070z7kuB70M7kG270M7070M7ow37ow1

He addresses the fact that some skills are broken, making Necro’s a less favorable class for some, but I’ve been using his newest build that incorporates the Shaman jewel, and it’s proved very handy with staying alive long enough to watch your entropic grasp around your enemy’s throat quench the light in their eyes.

Hope this helps!

Keep up the good work, Grenth approves.
~Bazuul Rasmus

alanis.6094:

Angry Flying Squirrel.3041:

Stormy O.7025:

It seems you’re unaware of +condition durations, which I did mention in my above post. My blood marks causes bleed for 13 seconds.

There are several runes to increase the bleed duration. There’s a trait to increase bleed duration. And the power line increases condition duration.

Add the direct damage from blood mark too (albeit it’s not much) and it’s not difficult to get the damage to be over 4k.

Post your build or its not happening. So go full condition damage and full spite that tops out mark of blood at 3.8k. Now why you would go spite, no one will ever know but ok.

And yes I understand what condition duration means. Too bad you don’t. Duration is crap in pvp. Unless your playing scrubs it will never last that long.

Still don’t see how your getting it to last that long. Even with armor runes it does not get to 13 seconds. And like some one stated they don’t all stack.

You only need 50% condition duration to get MoB up to 12 seconds, which will top 4200 bleeding damage. You can do that fairly easily with 0 points into Spite.

Additionally, I am not sure this if this is a l33t tPvP thread or not, but conditions go the full duration in WvW pretty often.

Talking about spvp/tpvp.

@Teknomancer, so true.. It was really a huge headache trying to discuss some of it with my buddy who has only played a Mesmer or Engineer.

“You have Death Shroud” Yea but the same situations where you could possibly disengage and collapse with other people, I’d be waiting for spawn.
“But you can tank, why are you complaining?” They just don’t understand..