Guild Wars 2

I think what is frustrating for us is that we have one decent build. And it is merely decent.

I do get bored with the class (despite also loving it). I have taken to running Power builds and axe builds just for the hell of it. I hope that when/if we get buffs, this determination will pay off.

In the meantime, I have rolled a thief that I generally main now. I bring this up only a comparison.

Choosing traits for it is a delight. I feel like there are few bad choices and a lot of great choices.

I don’t feel that way on the Necro. Instead, I feel as if I need to optimize what I have using traits that I feel to be a tad meh. I think trait for trait we have some of the least compelling choice. Moreover, they seem to be randomly placed in the various lines at times.

At this point though, I am okay with horizontal buffs that give me better choices to play than just one condition build and one item set.

Hell… at this point, I would just be stoked to be able to have ‘Corrupt Boon’ on my ability bar.

QSpec.4298:

…
In the meantime, I have rolled a thief that I generally main now. I bring this up only a comparison.

Choosing traits for it is a delight. I feel like there are few bad choices and a lot of great choices.

I don’t feel that way on the Necro. Instead, I feel as if I need to optimize what I have using traits that I feel to be a tad meh. I think trait for trait we have some of the least compelling choice. Moreover, they seem to be randomly placed in the various lines at times.
…

This is exactly how i felt when i re-rolled and made a thief. I breezed through the low levels, got my first trait point and sat there trying to decide where to put it.

There were no bad options

What is this wizardry! Why is my necro not like this!

For all the bugs, this is personally what saddens me more – even if they fix all the bugs, and all the traits work as intended, we will still be left with tratis and bonuses that appear to have been done at the 11th hour with absolutely no plan.

kinderghast.8501:

For all the bugs, this is personally what saddens me more – even if they fix all the bugs, and all the traits work as intended, we will still be left with tratis and bonuses that appear to have been done at the 11th hour with absolutely no plan.

Which is very sad, given Necromancer was among the first professions released and they’ve had the most time to iron it out.

I love Necromancer, if for nothing else than tribute to GW1 in how OP we were and how much fun they were. I still do have fun, but I have to put in 3x the effort to get the same results as other classes.

I have a Guardian, Warrior, Thief, Elementalist, Engineer, and Necromancer… If I apply the same effort I do with my Necro into my other classes, I’m a wrecking ball that cannot be stopped, whereas the Necro is just getting by.

“But Necro takes pro mastery to be good”… Perhaps. And maybe I’m just not that good.

But no matter how “good” you are at Necro, you will never be a great Necro, because the class itself isn’t designed currently for greatness and regardless of fanboying, self ego stroking, etc… that will not be changed.

Comparing skills to some other classes is mind boggling at times. We have skills that are “weaken your target, but become vulnerable”. This is only useful if you play to transfer conditions, which isn’t worth it when a lot of those abilities have long cooldowns. The opportunity cost just makes it not worth it. Playing my guardian? I’m pretty sure everything is a bonus. My only guess is that they intended necro to be the official class of masochists.

Only reason I feel down about my class is the bugs. Other then that I absolutely LOVE my necro and do not want to see it changed significantly from the original vision.

Context: All I do is WvW, Dungeons, Dynamic Events

Bottom line is:

If you go conditions which is sadly the build 90% of us are forced into, you are given what was given to every other class. Even fear was given to other classes.

If you go power build, you don’t have Warriors cool burstness, hell you don’t even compare to a staff wielding Guardian.

We uniquely have a second HP bar and can last a long time, while doing the damage of a gnat at a picnic.

We are amazing at letting others laugh and smile as they are having a good time, and then spreading their good time to other enemies. While our “good time” ticks at sometimes less than 100 a tick.

Sundial.9015:

Context: All I do is WvW, Dungeons, Dynamic Events

You just listed the entire game outside of spvp.

To be fair, if they did repair the bugs, we would be much stronger – but still not as strong as the other classes in every measurable field of context from survivability to dps to dot to utility to healing.

We would reign in condition stacking after bugs are repaired however. The problem?

Every class without exception has an I Win button against condition players… Push 1 button and magically all conditions go away.

To coincide this, our only condition that isn’t easily removed – fear – is 1-1.5 second (if traited), we only have 2 skills available (assuming you have a staff) that inflict it at all (stuns and knockdowns are by FAR superior), often on a ridiculously long cooldown, and Thieves can steal a 3 second AoE fear (twice as long as any of ours) whenever they want. Suddenly us having fear is actually twice as effective at giving it to our enemies to use against us.

In direct combat, being a condition class suddenly means absolutely nothing.

Death Shroud. first time I saw it, I was like, awesome im about to go into an overpowered mode, and decimate my enemies. The selection of abilities howevwer and what they do is abysmal, it was a severe dissapointment and continues to be so even now at 80. There is little that seems to be fun with death shroud, so much in fact I forget to use it most of the time, even if I have a full bar.

After that you have minions…..wells, and marks.

Minions: I had the idea after watching the yoggs cast review that I would be seeing my necro send forth his wave of minions to destroy his enemies, however I was quickly shown the errors of my ways. The minion armies of necromancers are more of a threat to there masters, than a benefit.

Marks, and Wells: AoE spells with cast times. I can see the cast times, if they did some insane damage, but they dont, in turn you have to predict the enemies movements and cast, which usually yields random results in pvp.

TL;DR
The things that set the Necromancer apart from the rest of the classes, are weaker than the run of the mill abilities, making necromancers feel like they are willfuly taking the shorter end of the stick in terms of special abilities. You can make the class work and succeed, but it still wont stand out amoungst the others in the crowd

Daikaze.6708:

I love the necromancer class… for PVE. WvW isn’t fun as a necromancer from my experience. I can soak up conditions, where the only reward seems to be the increased chance of winning. Or, I can unload/spread conditions onto the enemy force. This is great and all, but it’s so easy to remove/convert conditions and this class doesn’t offer any of the important ones (confusion is non-existent and retaliation is minimal) for WvW.

As a necromancer you typically end up stuck at 900 range trying to attack enemies, or you can stick to the staff for the extra range. Having one decent option for that range is kind of disappointing.

Bleed and poison seem to have little value in WvW, and that’s pretty much our bread and butter. Beyond that we simply make a good support class (again, WvW).

Of course, WvW isn’t the only aspect of the game.

Necro is one of the better WvW classes out there.

Rhyis.7058:

Necro is one of the better WvW classes out there.

Generally when making a bold claim, it is appreciated to provide evidence. But, I’ll break down the key WvW utilities and see if we can isolate where this comes from.

Moving on…

We truly do rule in WvW.

Is an explanation actually necessary? Just play necro in WvW for a time then switch to a class that isn’t ranger or elementalist and make the comparison yourself.

WvW is based almost entirely on AoE at 1200 range and survivability, of which necromancer has an abundance of both. Seems fairly obvious to me once you’ve laid down the theory crafting and actually played WvW as a bunch of classes.

Rhyis.7058:

Is an explanation actually necessary? Just play necro in WvW for a time then switch to a class that isn’t ranger or elementalist and make the comparison yourself.

WvW is based almost entirely on AoE at 1200 range and survivability, of which necromancer has an abundance of both. Seems fairly obvious to me once you’ve laid down the theory crafting and actually played WvW as a bunch of classes.

Plenty of AoE at 1200 range… because all of your marks and wells combined will deal about 5k-7k total output combined… an Elementalist can deal that in 1-2 skills… A Ranger can double that with their entire AoE range lineup… But, you said don’t mention classes that are better at it than Necro, so moving on…

…WvW isn’t just about ranged AoE. How do you think anyone even makes any pushes or takes any territory?

I can promise it wasn’t because of that really good Necro in the back line.

Why do you think wars can’t be won purely by long range missiles?

In every major battle (or even something as small as a party vs a party) a push is necessary, whereas the Warriors, Thieves, etc push in with that ridiculous burst damage and AoE, taking the terrain from the enemy.

No zerg is going to be pushed back by 50 Necros with Marks/Wells.

They will however be pushed back by 10-15 Warriors/Thieves/Eles.

Whoever wins those pushes is what wins WvW. Necro just seems good at it because they’re in the back casting the Wells and not dying – even if comparatively they’re doing nearly nothing.

I know… I run a Mark/Well build in WvW. I’m also quite good with it (as if it takes any skill at all to be a Mark/Well build… just lay down your AoEs and watch tiny numbers pop up by comparison to your peers).

Truth sucks, I know. I love Necro and noting these things is a kitten. But I’m honest enough to acknowledge them.

If I were to take the same effort from my Necro, and put it into my Ele, Guardian, Warrior, Thief, or Ranger… I’d be OP.

For Necro, that effort simply gets you by however, not enough to stand out.

i can only speak for my own playstyle, but yeah i can agree with some of the other stuff input here too.

personally though, ide like to see minion AI not be so hurp. maybe just have it target what i attack so it doesnt just stand there derping or worse yet run off to the side and pick a fight with something randomly? Considering rangers can stow their pets too it would be nice to have a kill command so i can decide when i want the non bone minions out and when i dont. traveling the environment sucks when they get hit and slow you down because of it.

i usually use dagger dagger, i can deal with the long cool down on 5 since it still feels about right. but the 3 and 2 i have issues with. 2 could potentially heal more or do a little more damage considering dagger is decently melee range and most melee has some kind of burst and its a little on the low side on my opinion. (or at least compared to my warrior or my friends thief :L) and 3 just feels like your not getting what you payed for in a sense. long cool down, too short a range to catch runners if you arent really spec’d into speed. the cooldown versus hold is kinda meh, i get the same effect with bolas on my warrior at a long range shorter cooldown and longer hold with the mobility naturally associated with my greatsword to close the gap. personally ide say a mobility attack would fit it better than that spell. you want to be stabbing people after all to get life force, so keeping on them is pretty key, a dash a whirl a leap… or maybe have it pull the guy towards you in conjunction with the snare?

edit: switch strength of undeath and death’s embrace. kinda like how berserkers strength works on warriors with increased adrenaline. i dunno bout you guys but traits like that which are spec’d into kinda feel… lame to start.

For PVE this class had done better for me than the other two scholars. Much easier to play. My only complaint is the Flesh Golem being deathly allergic to water. I didn’t even get into the water, just stood near and watched the Golem go into the deep end of the pool and fade away.

While I am in no way saying Necro’s are fine. Nor have i ever said Necro’s are fine. But i think the real problem is that no one likes playing a attrition Prof(i do, always have always will). Most of the complaints (i said most, not all, there are people on here that understand that we will never match the damage output of the other Prof’s), is that we don’t do as much damage as another Prof. This will always be the case. We gave up damage to be more survivable (now if this is true or not is another debate). I think the Problem is (talking pve) that being survivable does not give us an advantage most of the time. Most mobs are easy mode anyway, so its just about doing as much damage as possible. We then look at Dungeons and the Necro’s survivability does not even show it’s self as Mobs kind of just one shot people that are not dodging (not completely true, necro’s can take some more hits, than other, but less than some). So the question is did we get useful survivability for all the things we gave up.

@Squirrel – I’d have to answer that final question with “No”, simply given the Guardian can survive just as well as the Necromancer with higher damage output, fully capable of the attrition mechanic themselves along with the added mechanic of being able to lock down enemies with terrain control, stuns, conditions, while simultaneously being arguably the best party/zerg support tool in the game with virtues and concentrations.

And that is simply one clear example of several.

I’ve played attrition characters on many occasions for many years (that is after all what tanks are when you boil it down – the ability to survive the burst of your enemy and widdle your enemies down after their cooldowns are wasted). I enjoy it.

Perhaps with bugs properly fixed, the Necro won’t seem so bad at that… but I did make the point that to properly fill the attrition mechanic to proportion with the primary mechanics of other professions, we’d need to see a massive overhaul regardless.

My beefs with the class are these:

-Inefficient Trait pairs. (Crit and Cond? Crit does nothing for Cond except proc super weak crap. Why not Crit %+ Crit dmg and Cond + Cond duration? All trait lines are badly paired, forcing you to hybrid)

-Conditions lack of viability. (several things here, first the itemization for Condition dmg is bad. You can run power/tough/vitaility but condition is always paired with either power or crit. Forces you to hybrid even more.)

-Fears. They are absurdly ineffective in duration.

-Minions. A total joke outside of the rare 1v1 situation and usually even then.

Past that I love the concept of a durable caster with zone control and/or attrition capabilities. They just failed in the execution of the idea IMO.

if i put bugs aside…
the thing i REALLY DON’T like is that we have no mobility on weapon skills only on util’ (and it’s baaaaad… or has a long CD on it…).
i.e. ele with D/D can move so fast and almost “dodge” DMG cuz he can just leave a fire trail or teleport away and many more(and low CD on it or can use other elements that has mobility) and it’s with weapon skills only. warrior can leap at you, CC you all of that is with weapon skill too… and the list just goes on and on…

what needs to be done you ask?
give us more weapons we can use or give us different weapon skills without damaging our DMG. it is possible to even add things to DS so we can have teleport or something else but dont make me take a bone worm for teleporting or spectral walk and burn my utility slot for something more useful to do some burst or more conditions.

as for now, i have to use 1 utility to escape and it’s not that good cuz of a long CD or lowering your DMG (condition spec the most…) and you will get stomp when you try to get some distance.

traits are also have some silly stuff like applying chill for 1 sec at 25% (why should i take it if i can use a burst ability to just finish of the dude…) and many more weird things that make no sense and it looks like it’s a filler…

more options/renew in traits, more weapons or weapons skills. we need more options for game play as other classes have.

i just wish this thread will be sticky….

Did somebody honestly spout off thief as among the best wvw classes out there? You make me sad.

Silver lining to rolling and playing extensively with a Necro as a main for long periods of time. Any other class you play now feels like ez-mode.

I actually love how necromancer plays on a basic level but we’re overbalanced and our traits don’t sync at all. As a class we’re excruciatingly painfully split between power and condition and yet we can’t afford to hybridize since our damage is so piddly. We also have no decent source of stability unless we trait heavily into shroud. Oh and life leech is completely useless even if you pick up all the relevant traits.

Zabatakis.3571:

My beefs with the class are these:

-Inefficient Trait pairs. (Crit and Cond? Crit does nothing for Cond except proc super weak crap. Why not Crit %+ Crit dmg and Cond + Cond duration? All trait lines are badly paired, forcing you to hybrid)

-Conditions lack of viability. (several things here, first the itemization for Condition dmg is bad. You can run power/tough/vitaility but condition is always paired with either power or crit. Forces you to hybrid even more.)

-Fears. They are absurdly ineffective in duration.

-Minions. A total joke outside of the rare 1v1 situation and usually even then.

Past that I love the concept of a durable caster with zone control and/or attrition capabilities. They just failed in the execution of the idea IMO.

Yeah agree with all of this. Was just complaining about the prec/condi gear and trait thing in another thread. You go condi spec? Here, you get to have a ton of a stat which does very little for you.

And ofc minions, still broken standing there not attackign my target.

add to this:
-uber long cast times
-most annoying autoattack in the game. (staff 1). I challenge anyone to think of a worse autoattack. The animation, the sound, the way it evokes those orr mobs I am so tired of, the long cast time and super slow projectile speed, the fact it is not a 100% projectile despite this, the low damage, not able to kill objects with it most of the time. It will also bug and not automatically attack sometimes so you have to do it manually, I used to think this was due to out of range but it happens when not OOR too sometimes. Every now and then I make a bug report qqing about staff; I hope someone has to read through them.

Condition and Precision together actually isn’t bad, that I actually like about the class.
On top of Barbed Precision, Grandmaster Curses trait is Withering Precision (25% Weakness on Crit) and if you’re using Sigil of Earth, there’s that too. While conditions can’t crit, they can make you stack conditions faster. With Withering Precision, you’re also constantly debuffing their damage and putting another condition to cover your bleeds with.

Rabid (Condition/Precision/Toughness) is a great amulet for Necromancers and other condition specs in general.

What I do agree on is a lot of lackluster traits, aside from bugs that’s probably holding back the class the most. If you’ve played any other class you’d know they actually have options and trade offs to consider where as on the Necromancer, “go with these or be even more useless.”

Lumines.3916:

Condition and Precision together actually isn’t bad, that I actually like about the class.
On top of Barbed Precision, Grandmaster Curses trait is Withering Precision (25% Weakness on Crit) and if you’re using Sigil of Earth, there’s that too. While conditions can’t crit, they can make you stack conditions faster. With Withering Precision, you’re also constantly debuffing their damage and putting another condition to cover your bleeds with.

Rabid (Condition/Precision/Toughness) is a great amulet for Necromancers and other condition specs in general.

What I do agree on is a lot of lackluster traits, aside from bugs that’s probably holding back the class the most. If you’ve played any other class you’d know they actually have options and trade offs to consider where as on the Necromancer, “go with these or be even more useless.”

The crit interaction with Necro condition build is extremely overrated.

The only thing you would actually want crit for is IF you use Sigil of Earth. There’s no way you would take the weakness on crit (which is bad anyway) over the Sceptre Duration trait, especially when necro’s have plenty of weakness as it is. The minor trait that procs a 1 second bleed essentially means you have a 17% chance (33% on crit @ 50% crit) per hit to do 1 tic of bleed dmg (100-117) thus is only going to do anything for Life Transfer which is a decent bonus but that’s all it will do.

Going Power/Condition and using a different sigil would give you overall better dmg. Only difference is the Toughness vs. Vitality.

Unless they actually add better crit procs already in the tree, having Precision paired with Condition is just silly.

Barbed Precision actually has a 66% chance to bleed on crit, it’s higher than most other “bleed on crit” traits, Engineers have 30%, so really at 50% crit chance, 1/3 hits you gain an extra bleed. What I will give you though is Barbed Precision is pretty kitten, the Engineer related trait applies a 3s bleed while Mesmer’s Sharper Image applies a 5 second bleed (possibly the best) ugh, what a surprise.

Also, Lingering Curses currently does not stack with Hemophilia (which is better as it affects more than just scepter). Not saying Lingering Curses is worse, but Withering Precision is far from the “bad” you’re trying to make it out to be.

Withering Precision gives you the ability to constantly apply weakness ontop of everything you do, easily giving you another condition to cover your bleeds with while reducing their damage output, far from useless.

Average joe Necromancer uses off-hand dagger to apply weakness, however that’s 10/25s, more if he has Enfeebling Shroud (only when they’re in range). Withering Precision affects ALL your crits making it a much more constant thing.

Will both Spite and Curses benefit if they swapped Precision and Condition duration around? Possibly, but the current arrangement is decent as well. If anything, it’s not the attribute bonuses of the traits one should be upset about, it’s the lack of attractive trait choices within each line. That is hindering the class more than anything.

And this is why every time i see a stoic defender I know he never played necro… or played it in some of the first bw builds.

You got two lifebars dude…. yeah good argument. Two bad second lifebar gets 2 shoted unless you spec into it. Too bad with the only ranged spec I can’t even get resource for it after killing 15 people… Too bad it locks all the important skills from my one and only ranged spec or any other and replaces with 2 almost useless and 2 semi worth while.
And this thought process goes the same exact way every time someone tries the “you have x its awesome use it”.

Lumines.3916:

Barbed Precision actually has a 66% chance to bleed on crit, it’s higher than most other “bleed on crit” traits, Engineers have 30%, so really at 50% crit chance, 1/3 hits you gain an extra bleed. What I will give you though is Barbed Precision is pretty kitten, the Engineer related trait applies a 3s bleed while Mesmer’s Sharper Image applies a 5 second bleed (possibly the best) ugh, what a surprise.

Also, Lingering Curses currently does not stack with Hemophilia (which is better as it affects more than just scepter). Not saying Lingering Curses is worse, but Withering Precision is far from the “bad” you’re trying to make it out to be.

Withering Precision gives you the ability to constantly apply weakness ontop of everything you do, easily giving you another condition to cover your bleeds with while reducing their damage output, far from useless.

Average joe Necromancer uses off-hand dagger to apply weakness, however that’s 10/25s, more if he has Enfeebling Shroud (only when they’re in range). Withering Precision affects ALL your crits making it a much more constant thing.

Will both Spite and Curses benefit if they swapped Precision and Condition duration around? Possibly, but the current arrangement is decent as well. If anything, it’s not the attribute bonuses of the traits one should be upset about, it’s the lack of attractive trait choices within each line. That is hindering the class more than anything.

They do stack btw, not sure where you get your information. And weakness isn’t that great of a condition it needs to be normalized.

Knote.2904:

Lumines.3916:

Barbed Precision actually has a 66% chance to bleed on crit, it’s higher than most other “bleed on crit” traits, Engineers have 30%, so really at 50% crit chance, 1/3 hits you gain an extra bleed. What I will give you though is Barbed Precision is pretty kitten, the Engineer related trait applies a 3s bleed while Mesmer’s Sharper Image applies a 5 second bleed (possibly the best) ugh, what a surprise.

Also, Lingering Curses currently does not stack with Hemophilia (which is better as it affects more than just scepter). Not saying Lingering Curses is worse, but Withering Precision is far from the “bad” you’re trying to make it out to be.

Withering Precision gives you the ability to constantly apply weakness ontop of everything you do, easily giving you another condition to cover your bleeds with while reducing their damage output, far from useless.

Average joe Necromancer uses off-hand dagger to apply weakness, however that’s 10/25s, more if he has Enfeebling Shroud (only when they’re in range). Withering Precision affects ALL your crits making it a much more constant thing.

Will both Spite and Curses benefit if they swapped Precision and Condition duration around? Possibly, but the current arrangement is decent as well. If anything, it’s not the attribute bonuses of the traits one should be upset about, it’s the lack of attractive trait choices within each line. That is hindering the class more than anything.

They do stack btw, not sure where you get your information. And weakness isn’t that great of a condition it needs to be normalized.

Weakness is horrible in a game were most builds run with 50-60% crit (tpvp).

I’m goin to have to respectfully keep disagreeing. It does have a more limited effect on builds running high crits, but the negative endurance regen has an universal effect on all builds. More so than any other mmo, movement and dodging is incredibly important in this game, constant weakness reduces the rate enemies can sosge in a given timeframe. There’s still plenty of merit in this condition aside from glancing blows.

too much to read but i spvp my necro and do rather well long as im not solo against 2 or more

i use this build
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#czVm0cc9MoMhrMoMhrM0GGx0MsMkMRb

riotnrrrd.9582:

too much to read but i spvp my necro and do rather well long as im not solo against 2 or more

i use this build
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#czVm0cc9MoMhrMoMhrM0GGx0MsMkMRb

Many here do well with Necromancer, myself included. We know how to build it. We know how to run it. We know what it is capable of, and implement it well.

The point of this thread is not “Necromancer is useless”.

The point of this thread is “Necromancer is a bugged POS and while you can be a good Necro, you will never be a great Necro because the mechanics are flawed.”

If the same amount of effort were put into any other class, you’d find far greater performance.

It’s similar to a 30 year old car that’s never seen 1 day of preventive maintenance since it left the factory, takes a half hour just to start up, and has a top speed of 20mph before the wheels start to fall off… sure, it runs. It’ll get you from point A to point B… but are you honestly going to compare that to a brand new mustang?

I totally agree with your assessment. I haven’t played my necro that much, but the skills just seemed lackluster to me. The damage and survivabilty were decent but it just wasn’t fun for some reason.

Rhyis.7058:

Necro is one of the better WvW classes out there.

It’s possible I’m doing something wrong. I’ve tried a few builds and have had limited success with each.

A staff based build is nice for keeps/forts but it’s incredibly dull and really just requires the enemy to get too close to the edge to do anything. I still keep a staff on hand, but I really don’t find enough use for it.

Scepter + Dagger works amazingly well in skirmishes due to the AOE options, but I find conditions are cleansed pretty quickly. It’s a bit harder to use at forts/keeps as it requires me to get a bit close for comfort.

As for utility options… I’ve recently switched over to a condition/DS build that focuses on building up might. It’s worked reasonably well so far, but I’m always disappointed when it comes to keeps/forts. All too often, I find that my corruption skills are easily “obstructed” (seems like skills go from chest to the enemy’s feet) or they get cleansed/converted. Sometimes, I’m not even sure if my corruption skill sare working properly. My survivability is really good in WvW, but I still find that my skills are easily countered.

It’s a great class, I just find myself disappointed with some aspects. Basically, my disappointment stems from the bugs and seeing how easy it is for my abilities to be countered by the enemy.

I think Weakness is pretty good as well, considering it is usually bundled with other conditions (i.e. Enfeebling Blood) or added as a proc from withering precision which makes other setups more dangerous. The problem with the necromancer applying weakness is that opponents are not threatened by the setups prior to the additition of weakness, so it just seems like an annoyance.

If the necromancer (+/- team) were forcing you to spend endurance to survive a close skirmish weakness would shine.

i have 3 char 80s with all full exo dmg.
im loving dmg i do with my necro so far. i go for dagger / Ds pure Dmg no cond at all.
in pve im nuking everything pretty fast [ even faster than my other 2 80s ]

in pvp it’s a little bit tricky but my dmg is close to other melee classes so far

i agree with most functional and balance issues discussed
(minions IQ, trait randomness/ hybrid stat bonuses, average condition niche ability, no burst ability, weak mobility, survivability and etc are just not up to par with what was probably envisioned)

my specific personal suggestions/gripes:

let us see our conditions/boons while in death shroud

death shroud teleport should be longer range

aoe effectiveness (beyond staff too)

we need more lifeforce!
just what does “gluttony” apply to? not dagger attacks, not axe 2

and how do scepter builds get lifeforce?
(i don’t want to have to weapon swap to use axe 2 or staff1+traited marks; or trait 20 into curses for spectral trait that probably needs to be occupied by something else if i’m going condition dmg)
i feel that even that 1% lifeforce from a critical hit (33% chance) trait should be something simply GIVEN to our profession and shouldn’t have to be weighed between enfeebling shroud or hemophilia

really, equipping scepter (going with the said condition niche) is like a warrior equipping a weapon without a burst skill or a ranger equipping a weapon that stows away his pet or a mesmer equipping a weapon that destroys all your illusions or a guardian equipping a weapon that is not virtuous or an elementalist that can only use 2 attunements.
is this a fair comparison?

if i want a superior condition build, the trade-offs are too harsh
max curses for scepter 33 is good.
if you want the cover condition of weakness, then you lose that 33% duration for bleed/poison.
if you go spite for the stat bonus of condition duration, you don’t have much trait points left at all…
passive stat hybridization isn’t a horrible idea, just make other trade-offs less brutal if you’re going to do that? otherwise, give us one line that gives crit chance + crit power (or power) like our aoe, burst, mobility, healing trump scholar ele

i like the idea of an axe off-hand. though i think our weapon skills should be slightly redone to some extent to give us more variety, bang, and “pizazz”
i.e. what classes don’t have some sort of combination of leap/teleport, block/evade, immobilize/push/cc, etc all in one weapon set? i don’t even really like the ele playstyle of blowing all your cds and spamming attunement bonuses. but sometimes, i choose to play ele over necro. why? simply because it’s fast-paced and flashy! ride the lightning has to be one of my favs
if they want to give the excuse of how our skills are different/fit the niche we have to find? (conditions. i.e. dagger 4? at least make the cds shorter or the traits for those skills stronger, as in a 30% reduction in cooldown instead of 15%. esp for a weapon skill that inflicts a condition which only affects 1 attack of your target, blind.)

dagger, oh dagger…
does anyone actually use the dagger 2 skill in pvp?? i mean how much life can you siphon even with the trait. i think i should only consider using it if i was inexcusably out of range for dagger1 or kiting and i have traited the added bonus of dark armor +400 toughness while channeling (and axe 2 or weapon swap or DS4 is on cd)

and that makes me think of enfeebling shroud.. if i trait near to death, i can spam death shroud twice (on and off) for its traited benefits on activation and only get enfleebling shroud once every 3 activations. that makes me think there’s an internal cooldown (perhaps 15 seconds or so). the trait description does not state this, either fix the description or fix the skill.
the same goes for countless other trait descriptions for all the professions. i would gladly find and name all of them if anet wishes so, but i think they’d rather just give big talk about E-sports and give lazy and vague descriptions of possible traits you can choose in the very system that is supposed to set this game apart – balanced trade-offs.
but 1. (as this thread is an example of) there is not enough balance. and 2. you are not even sure what you are trading off (you can do this faster; or you can do this stronger; or this does more that, but when you try it with this, it doesn’t, but you won’t know until you try it because we won’t put it in the description)
[[no offense to Anet or their work, GW2 is without a doubt my favorite game ever and it’s been done amazingly. but why be satisfied with being set apart? reach for perfection. try to become THE e-sport! i’m not a complainer but i barely have time to play and i commonly see so many things that can be improved upon that i feel i am doing an injustice to the very game i wish to reach those heights if i remain silent]]

since it seems most people are leaning towards the idea that we are (or anet intended us to be) specialized with condition application, perhaps buff this in some way. maybe a trait or something that doesn’t have to take up a utility slot. maybe make “plague” elite into a signet which has a passive effect: conditions you apply to your target also affect enemies adjacent to your target.

because i like our profession mechanic, i stray from condition builds. i personally like toying with crit builds that rotate death shroud and something that gets me lifeforce= sustained 3k hits from 900 distance. i’d find the builds more feasible if we had one of the following: more range, more survivability, more burst (perhaps a source of quickness? a toggable skill in DS that quickly drains LF?)
i’ve played warrior and engineer range dmg builds and they can’t match those 3k hits.
i liked the warrior with faster rifle cds and fury on immobilize. that lets me have high crits when i want them most of the time (when im trying to use killshot or just have stopping power)
i liked the engineer with high dmg and a condition (any of vuln, blind, burn, bleed).
though the sheer sustained dps couldn’t be matched by these classes, they were far superior in survivability, mobility, escape, utility, etc without having to be speccd for it. i went glass cannon for my necro to get those results but even when i went glass cannon for engineer, i had my gadgets or potions. when i see the trade-offs for necromancer, the trade-offs for my first main (engineer – pistol condition dmg vs rifle with immobilize escape overcharged shot) seem like nothing.
oh and that makes me think of something else. with this necro build i sometimes like to get the trait that removes a condition on entering DS. that way when a thief tries to chain me within a few seconds out of stealth/on steal, i can thwart his efforts by breaking stun with DS and hopefully instantly removing immobilize. if i can’t remove that immobilize due to a cover condition, then i am reminded of necro’s shortcomings as my glass cannon is shattered because i simply wanted to spec as something that could provide some ranged numbers comparable to the ranged numbers of classes that innately have more armor and melee capability.

so i think the said trait, Shrouded Removal, should be buffed to remove more or all conditions and changed to a major or grandmaster trait.
either that or give us more control over the conditions on ourselves without a huge cd (plague signet) or cast time (consume conditions heal skill) or force us to use a certain weapon (dagger 4)

i like our elites. plague is for condition builds, flesh golem is for whoever is minion specced or wants an interrupt (just plz make him smarter so i don’t have to find him and make sure he’s actually facing my target), and lich… give it some sort of way of working with death shroud other than oh i F1 twice in a second to get trait effect fury and activate lich to have fury for 5 seconds in my elite. maybe make it something that when active and death shroud shroud is activated, you’re in a death shroud with different stronger skills but skill use costs a load of lifeforce (similar to initiative) so you can’t be OP for too long, and if you are and use up all your LF, you have lost your profession resource for when the cd ends. don’t like the idea of that? then you have a problem with a mechanic that an entire profession is based off of already.
…and make it persist past moa bird!??? 30sec>10sec. k thx

is there some other thread for suggestions? cuz i can keep em coming.
this thread is mainly about sPVP and stuff but i see our utility in WvW is limited also – namely, mobility. perhaps make the trail left by spectral walk apply swiftness/cripple?

I find it sad that people are so focused on the min/maxing thing that they think scepter is the only weapon for necro’s. I haven’t even had a scepter in my inventory for the last month.

For my play style scepter sucks. With the amount of condition removal that exists why would you kitten 2-3 other weapon slots to give one a chance to do some damage with scepter. Even if you go scepter/dagger speccing for more condition damage not only kittens your other weapon(s) because they’re going to be power based, not to mention all of your attacks in death shroud are power based.

Until they make condition damage the same as power I wont be worrying about anything condition based in my specs.

I currently run dagger/war horn, axe/ focus and staff when need be. 30 0 0 20 20

I think if people focused on what cc and abilites will keep them alive longer there will be a lot less qq on these forums about how imbalanced x class is over the necro.

no one is gonna teach u how to play in this forum here. Everyone else would just copy it. So that’s why there are more negative threads than good threads in every class section.

Dariroch.6482:

I find it sad that people are so focused on the min/maxing thing that they think scepter is the only weapon for necro’s. I haven’t even had a scepter in my inventory for the last month.

For my play style scepter sucks. With the amount of condition removal that exists why would you kitten 2-3 other weapon slots to give one a chance to do some damage with scepter. Even if you go scepter/dagger speccing for more condition damage not only kittens your other weapon(s) because they’re going to be power based, not to mention all of your attacks in death shroud are power based.

Until they make condition damage the same as power I wont be worrying about anything condition based in my specs.

I currently run dagger/war horn, axe/ focus and staff when need be. 30 0 0 20 20

I think if people focused on what cc and abilites will keep them alive longer there will be a lot less qq on these forums about how imbalanced x class is over the necro.

Because a 1 second fear (we give thieves free 3-4 second AoE fears every 40 seconds when we fight them) is a great method of CC.

After all, the rest of our “CC” (cripple, freeze, etc) is… wait for it… wait…

…CONDITION DAMAGE!!! That wonderful and fantastic thing you denounced in your post!!!

…

Moving on…

On a more serious note, I do have to ask… Axe? Really? 30/0/0/20/20 with an Axe at that? What’s your crit rate (preferably with SS evidence)? I imagine in the range of about 40-45%, provided you have Precision armor and accessories at least to compensate. Still 25% less than it should be for a reliable DPS build.

Going off your trait setup, going to assume you’re trying to capitalize on Death Shroud. The problem however is you aren’t running the GM DS trait, you’re also not running with your primary lockdown traits that make DS semi-usable with that lineup. You’re also not capitalizing your LF to truly specialize in DS.

Particularly with Axe’s kitten poor performance… D/D outperforms it for direct damage output, AND provides small sustainability.

My Staff hits harder.

That said, I’m going to assume you’re trying to “jack-of-all-trades” it… and I’m also going to assume you’re spending more time in PvE than anything, taking those experiences and trying to say that the class is fine (even with over 100 listed bugs, several of which class-breaking).

After all… if you took that setup into s/tpvp, you’d have learned rather quickly (I hope) that it doesn’t hold up in direct combat. Given the lack of support capability of such a build, as well as the lack of AoE functionality, I would assume the same of WvW.

Of course… that is also assuming that you weren’t completely fixated on yourself to be truly critical of your own performance to examine improvement.

I alt as a necro in pvp sometimes and when I get frustrated it always stems from the crummy stun breaks in conjunction with the almost utter lack of stability. If I have a couple of matches where im constantly being tossed like a ragdoll I typically switch toons. Its just not fun to not be able to act.

Andele.1306:

My only gripes are bugs and that there is no real synergy for mixed builds (traits and utilites feel set up like forcing you to get the full line and at least 2 more of the same type of utility).

yes yes a thousand times yes

You definitely get funneled into certain builds when playing Necro, and a lot of that is unsatisfying.

My main problem with Condition damage is that it really does not matter in PvE/WvW environments. Large bosses are capped at 25 bleeds, so your bleed basically has no meaning compared to regular DPS. You’re just replacing someone else’s bleed, and someone is probably replacing your maxed condition bleed with their cruddy no-damage bleed anyway. In WvW, most people drop before you can even stack the bleeds. Epidemic is nice, but you’re mostly spreading everyone else’s conditions instead of your own. Also, condition damage does nothing for doing damage to siege or other structures.

Everything is also lackluster. Minions are useless. I’ve not had a minion who didn’t die right away at level 80. I’ve actually resorted to using seed turrets (and Take Root) in place of minions because they’re overall more reliable than our minions.

AOE sucks compared to other classes. Marks do not trigger on enemies who are Downed. They also don’t trigger on siege. They also don’t trigger on allies when you want the condition removal and regeneration buff to proc. Wells have a shorter range than staff spells, which makes it really annoying to use. There’s also only two wells that do any sort of damage. They also don’t have as much reach as other AOE spells (other AOE can reach siege on walls without any effort). I’m also pretty sure wells are Power based, so condition damage doesn’t even make these any good.

The only way I’ve felt useful in WvW/PvE is a Healing/Power build. We have a lot of healing going on, to be honest. Mark of Blood and Well of Blood is staple. Death Shroud can also be spec’d to heal as well (during Life Transfer, and against when leaving DS). No one notices healing (healing in general is pretty transparent and unappreciated), but I’m definitely keeping people alive here. You also get additional Mark of Blood while evading, and an extra Mark of Blood when reviving if you trait it up. I’m aiming for Runes of Mercy to buff my revive/healing utility, though it is still to be determined if that will do any good.

There is also the mark of revival trait that put down a reaper’s mark (staff #5) when you start to revive someone. May buy that extra second.

Not that those marks mean much against anyone using ranged attacks (and even a warrior thief should be packing some kind of ranged attack, unless the player is really blank).

Katai.6240:

You definitely get funneled into certain builds when playing Necro, and a lot of that is unsatisfying.

My main problem with Condition damage is that it really does not matter in PvE/WvW environments. Large bosses are capped at 25 bleeds, so your bleed basically has no meaning compared to regular DPS. You’re just replacing someone else’s bleed, and someone is probably replacing your maxed condition bleed with their cruddy no-damage bleed anyway. In WvW, most people drop before you can even stack the bleeds. Epidemic is nice, but you’re mostly spreading everyone else’s conditions instead of your own. Also, condition damage does nothing for doing damage to siege or other structures.

Everything is also lackluster. Minions are useless. I’ve not had a minion who didn’t die right away at level 80. I’ve actually resorted to using seed turrets (and Take Root) in place of minions because they’re overall more reliable than our minions.

AOE sucks compared to other classes. Marks do not trigger on enemies who are Downed. They also don’t trigger on siege. They also don’t trigger on allies when you want the condition removal and regeneration buff to proc. Wells have a shorter range than staff spells, which makes it really annoying to use. There’s also only two wells that do any sort of damage. They also don’t have as much reach as other AOE spells (other AOE can reach siege on walls without any effort). I’m also pretty sure wells are Power based, so condition damage doesn’t even make these any good.

The only way I’ve felt useful in WvW/PvE is a Healing/Power build. We have a lot of healing going on, to be honest. Mark of Blood and Well of Blood is staple. Death Shroud can also be spec’d to heal as well (during Life Transfer, and against when leaving DS). No one notices healing (healing in general is pretty transparent and unappreciated), but I’m definitely keeping people alive here. You also get additional Mark of Blood while evading, and an extra Mark of Blood when reviving if you trait it up. I’m aiming for Runes of Mercy to buff my revive/healing utility, though it is still to be determined if that will do any good.

This is how I built my Necro. Its a Healing/Boon well build and its very effective in PvE and WvW. I win almost all my 1v1s and often even 1v2s. I often get up to 20 stacks of might and almost always have more than 10. My Well of Blood can heal for 1000 HPS (counting Dwayna rune proc) and gives everyone 4 1/2 seconds of protection (all the wells do). Blood is power and the trait that gives might on Life Blast constantly leave a large amount of might stacks on me, allowing me to do both power based damage and condition damage in a much more effective manner. 1.85K toughness and 23K HP + Death Shroud make me very hard to take down. Plague form gives me the ability to perma blind groups of players after teleporting to them with dark path allowing my group to push in and decimate them (well of darkness works well here too). Dagger is able to put out respectable amounts of DPS and I have alot of different CC at my disposal including an AoE fear which is amazing in WvW.

The only thing a necro really has is condition damage. Unlike burst builds which are difficult (albeit not impossible) to counter, condition damage is very easy to counter with a simple condition removal skill which every class has. The only reason we’re able to get any kills at all with conditions is because they’re so easy to counter, most classes don’t waste a utility slot on trying to counter it. This puts us in this weird “so nooby it’s pro” place.

The other thing a necro has over other classes is the ability to put bunker guards in their place. Minion master necromancers are the best answer to a bunker builds. Outside that situation, we’re pretty much stuck with just spreading the bleeding/poison love.

Things necromancers don’t have that other classes do; a possible burst build, stability, escape skills, alternative build choices, and a plethora of useful utility skills. We really only have a few utility skills that are useful, and they’re usually all or nothing skills. Like minions. You either go excessive with minions or not at all.

I’m actually not feeling too bad about my Necro. Sure the bugs suck but I find her genuinely fun. Just hit 60 on her in fact. It’s my Ranger I’m feeling down about. Ranger slot skills are all so… well, BORING. Spirits are weak as hell and a crapshoot, traps are meh, and there is too much focus on the weak pets. Same deal with traits, with Vigor, Toughness AND Healing Power being spread across three different trait lines. On the other hand, Necromancers are versatile and a handful of fun with their traits fairly logically sorted out.

I think I would be happy with conditionmancer if they just added cond dmg/vitality/toughness gear.

I find deathshroud to be very strong in pve and wvw because you’re more likely to get life force from kills, and you can guarantee every fight starts with 100% (thanks critters). In spvp/tpvp building life force can quickly become an issue. Maybe if they nerfed life force from kills and buffed it on everything else it would feel more evenly balanced.

Other than that if anet fixes bugs then I can patiently wait to see what they have in mind for power and mm builds.

I just tried a Staff/DS build that focused on crit, power, and traits to power up the staff and death shroud. In WvW, and under the perfect scenario my DS’s #1 attack to crit for ~2500-3500 max.

At first I was VERY excited, this being the highest numbers I’ve seen yet. Than I was saddened, remembering that many other classes hardly have to work to hit upwards of 7k, AoE damage (or at least on multiple targets – I’m looking at YOU warriors)