Guild Wars 2

I want to break down the necromancer problems in WvW into 3 simple truths.

1) Worst damage in the game – As in, necro only got one fifth of the DPS of a thief. Since the direct damage of the necro is so weak, most players had to rely on conditions. Unfortunately in wvw conditions gets removed super fast in 2-4 seconds.

Even with BiP, your damage is nowhere near other classes.

A necro can max power and condition damage all he/she wants. All other 7 classes can do better damage.

2) Worst survival in the game – Sure necro got 20k hp to start. But you got no stealth. No teleport. No special movement skills like leap skills. Weak armor. The list goes on and on.

DS for survival purposes is a joke. Of the 4 skills in DS, none of them help you survive.

A necro can max hp and armor all he/she wants. All other 7 classes can survive better.

3) Worst team support – Very few necro skills have boons. And those that do are highly conditional. Well of Blood requires allies to stand in an area. Well unfortunately in wvw, that area would be nuked to shards. Spectral Wall, LOL. Good luck getting any of you allies to run into that in the open field zerg vs zerg. I guess it might be useful when your team is storming though an open gate of broken wall. But usually when that happens your team already won.

Sure necro got a few team healing skills. But you would need to spec and equip for them to be of use; taking away all your damage abilities.

Condition drawing and removals. Plague Signet is bugged and often do not draw conditions. Well of Power, LOL 48-60 seconds?

So worst damage, worst survival, worst team support. Cannot kill. Cannot run. Cannot help. Can’t get more useless than this can we?

A statue to this man, ANET, asap.

“DS for survival purposes is a joke. Of the 4 skills in DS, none of them help you survive.”

This is the best, they claim it’s an op mechanism, another set of weapons, more health, but really, when i am in death shroud i just feel as i am a dumb zombie trying to staying alive with what has been left to me. = Nothing.

Yeah i feel the necromancer is very weak. The worst damage and not enough support.

Totaly agree with OP’s assessment of the Necromancer

worst class in the game by far

I’m sorry but your take on Necromancers and there effectiveness in all the roles is just wrong, granted we cant preform better then most classes at some aspects but your analysis is just wrong and this is really a L2P topic.

Survivability
Firstly Necromancers have one of the best survival setups in-game. it may not be as obvious as D/D Elementalists regen power or Bunker Guardians condition removal but Death Shroud is a huge boost in survivability.

(120% of Max Health + SRP%) – 3-4% Total/ sec can translate into some extremely bunky builds and I’ve survived and killed countless times on below 2k health and flicking in and out of Death Shroud to decoy on cooldowns.

Heres a quick sPvP screenie i took yesterday with my burst heal support build i didn’t die once in the match because of the insane survivability i speced into.

Damage
You cant compare our damage to theifs and complain they do more then us, period. Theif classes are designed to hit hard and die quick and in WvW i have no issues at all fighting theifs there my easiest kills.

Our damage is suppose be the weakest out of the light Armour users because of our insane health pool. Other classes typically need to stat in full vitality to hit 18k health, we don’t and that’s why many Necromancers choose to make up lost damage in Armour bonus.

That being said i have never had an issue (minus Bunker Guardians ofc) dishing out 20k+ damage in a rotation of direct damage skills, Necromancers weakness in the damage department is the long cooldowns on our utilities vs other classes which is unfair yes.

You cant say Necromancers conditions is weak zerg vs. zerg because of all the AoE condition removal, its universal. Every class suffers from all the passive condition removal.

TL;DR L2P please. We arnt the strongest, but we are not the weakest at everything. We suffer from long cooldown utilities and numerous high-end bugs which will.. eventually be fixed.

The problem with what you are saying is that you are evaluating the other classes based on their strength in one thing. Thieves, damage; Guardians, bunker; etc. The necromancer is not designed like this. The necro is not the best at one particular thing, you’re right. But the necro is the best class at doing more than one thing at a time in the same build.

Why do you think our power line also gives condition duration? Why does our crit line also give condition damage? And why does the Death Shroud line, our way to play tanky, give critical damage? It is because the necro is supposed to combine these things into one build. A necro is supposed to play hybrid.

A necro isn’t the best bunker, but the necro bunker build does more damage than any other bunker build. A necro doesn’t do the most condition damage, but a necro condition build has the most direct damage included with it. And a necro doesn’t do the highest direct damage, but the necro’s power damage is consistent and sustained throughout an entire fight (that’s why our power weapons each have a low-CD channel on them).

I do primarily WvW on my necro and have had the opposite experience as you :P I kill way more than I die, my build has perma-swiftness so I can run, and I’m not spec’d for support so I can’t help, you’re correct there :-)

Oh, and Spectral Wall isn’t a bad skill. 14s of protection on a 32s CD? Yes please.

It’s also easy to say that necros suck at support, but in reality, they are almost as good as a support-spec Guardian. Guardians are just a lot more noticeable.

Both classes support very well, but do so in different ways. Guardians buff and shield allies, necros shut down and control enemies. Everyone can see exactly how a Guardian is helping because they are flashy and make this nice line of yellow pentagons on your status bar. Necros put a bunch of red pentagons on the enemy instead, but how many folks pay a lot of attention to that? Really all they look at there is health and not conditions.

Consider that against a player who did not invest in precision or crit damage, Weakness is, on average, a 29.375% reduction in damage (glancing blows deal 25-50% normal damage) Against PvE content, this is against pretty much everything you face. Blind is well known in effects. Constant chill makes it so the target can only use it’s non-auto attack skills 1/3 as often. Poison makes healing enemies regain health at 2/3 normal rate. Fear locks them out of doing anything at all.

Since necros can also grant protection to the party (via traited wells or Spectral Wall), the damage reduction from enemies can become immense, even beyond what a Guardian can provide.

TLDR: We are a very strong support class. We just do it in a far more subtle manner.

Ascii.9726:

I’m sorry but your take on Necromancers and there effectiveness in all the roles is just wrong, granted we cant preform better then most classes at some aspects but your analysis is just wrong and this is really a L2P topic.

Survivability
Firstly Necromancers have one of the best survival setups in-game. it may not be as obvious as D/D Elementalists regen power or Bunker Guardians condition removal but Death Shroud is a huge boost in survivability.

(120% of Max Health + SRP%) – 3-4% Total/ sec can translate into some extremely bunky builds and I’ve survived and killed countless times on below 2k health and flicking in and out of Death Shroud to decoy on cooldowns.

Heres a quick sPvP screenie i took yesterday with my burst heal support build i didn’t die once in the match because of the insane survivability i speced into.

Damage
You cant compare our damage to theifs and complain they do more then us, period. Theif classes are designed to hit hard and die quick and in WvW i have no issues at all fighting theifs there my easiest kills.

Our damage is suppose be the weakest out of the light Armour users because of our insane health pool. Other classes typically need to stat in full vitality to hit 18k health, we don’t and that’s why many Necromancers choose to make up lost damage in Armour bonus.

That being said i have never had an issue (minus Bunker Guardians ofc) dishing out 20k+ damage in a rotation of direct damage skills, Necromancers weakness in the damage department is the long cooldowns on our utilities vs other classes which is unfair yes.

You cant say Necromancers conditions is weak zerg vs. zerg because of all the AoE condition removal, its universal. Every class suffers from all the passive condition removal.

TL;DR L2P please. We arnt the strongest, but we are not the weakest at everything. We suffer from long cooldown utilities and numerous high-end bugs which will.. eventually be fixed.

1) DS

Like I said, DS is not a defensive skill. None of the 4 skills helps you escape from a zerg. The only thing defensive about DS is the extra hp bar. Think about the defensive skills of other classes and compare. Stealth, teleport, leap attack, etc.

DS also “locks” your whole skill bar down so you can’t do anything else to help yourself escape. You cannot heal. You cannot remove conditions. You cannot snare your enemy. Hack you can’t even BE healed while in DS, so your allies can’t help you neither. You can only hold down “w” and pray that your swiftness (assuming you casted that b4 your DS) is enough to save you from the zerg.

So yes necro does have 20k hp and another 20k in DS. But whatever damage comes the necro’s way, he/she is taking all of it in the face. Necro got no “gadget skills” to get away from a zerg. When it is a 10 enemies vs you zerg chase, I would take gadget skills over 40k hp any day.

2) Damage.

Come on dude get real. I have seen thieves downing people in seconds. I have seen warriors chopping people down pretty fast also. Elementalists nukes are no joke. Bang, down, dead, owned. Necro damage is nowhere near their level.

The faster you kill your enemy the better. Thieves in wvw, thanks to stealth, often kill their enemy before they can even react by dodging and healing. The lower your damage, the more time the enemy have to dodge, heal and run away. To comparsate, long term damage should always out DPS short blast damage. But nope. As of right now thiefs owns in the long term DPS too.

And so we go back to the idea of high hp, low damage balance. Do you know what this means actually? That means our extra hp is a BURDEN to our class. It doesn’t actually work to our benefit. Everything we got is underpowered because of our high hp.

And this is terrible because our class CANNOT fully utilitize our high hp anyways due to our light armor class. Sure we got 20k hp. But it goes down super fast because of lack of armor. In other words, if I wanted to “tank” that way, I would have made a warrior or guardian instead.

So to sum things up:

We gained: 20k hp. 40k hp if you count DS.

We lost: Gadget skills, damage, general under power of all our skills.

Correct me if im wrong but Spectral Walk and Mist Wurm is a blink/ teleport, LF builder (direct DS-HP for free, 3% of a 20k HP Necromancer with 15 SRP is 830 health gained PER HIT / +8300DS-HP), stun-breaker and Walk is also base 30 seconds swiftness.

Learn to play Necromancer properly please CHIPS, any decent Necro player reading this thread will be laughing at you for your child-like approach to what you think are Necromancers limits.

Ascii.9726:

Correct me if im wrong but Spectral Walk and Mist Wurm is a blink/ teleport, LF builder (direct DS-HP for free, 3% of a 20k HP Necromancer with 15 SRP is 830 health gained PER HIT / +8300DS-HP), stun-breaker and Walk is also base 30 seconds swiftness.

Learn to play Necromancer properly please CHIPS, any decent Necro player reading this thread will be laughing at you for your child-like approach to what you think are Necromancers limits.

Neither SW or MW can help you escape from a zerg. Instead they are used as offensive hit and run skills. I used both of these skills extensively and in fact I posted a build on how to use them a while back.

In fact, I had tested and used nearly everything of the necromancer. So stop throwing the L2P card at me.

Laugh at me? How? Prove to me these three things:

1) Name one class who deals less damage than a necromancer in wvw.

2) Name one class who survive worst than a necromancer in wvw.

3) Name one class who team support worst than a necromancer in wvw. (hint: It isn’t a thief. Team stealth is great for wvw.)

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It’s also easy to say that necros suck at support, but in reality, they are almost as good as a support-spec Guardian. Guardians are just a lot more noticeable.

Both classes support very well, but do so in different ways. Guardians buff and shield allies, necros shut down and control enemies. Everyone can see exactly how a Guardian is helping because they are flashy and make this nice line of yellow pentagons on your status bar. Necros put a bunch of red pentagons on the enemy instead, but how many folks pay a lot of attention to that? Really all they look at there is health and not conditions.

Consider that against a player who did not invest in precision or crit damage, Weakness is, on average, a 29.375% reduction in damage (glancing blows deal 25-50% normal damage) Against PvE content, this is against pretty much everything you face. Blind is well known in effects. Constant chill makes it so the target can only use it’s non-auto attack skills 1/3 as often. Poison makes healing enemies regain health at 2/3 normal rate. Fear locks them out of doing anything at all.

Since necros can also grant protection to the party (via traited wells or Spectral Wall), the damage reduction from enemies can become immense, even beyond what a Guardian can provide.

TLDR: We are a very strong support class. We just do it in a far more subtle manner.

If weakness stays on for any duration of time in wvw, I would agree with you. But as it is right now conditions gets removed very quickly. Weakness is an unreliable “shut down” at best.

You cannot Plague blind in wvw. That’s simply suicide. Deathly Swarm does blind better, but it is only for the next attack (not sustainable, unlike Plague’s blind). Blind in GW2 is a far cry from it was in GW1, which would last its whole duration.

Chill is indeed pretty good. It is too bad that we only have a few skills that applies chill, most on weapons. This is pretty sad since necros worships Grenth.

Poison, well let’s hope the guy happens to equip a long recharge 40 second cooldown healing skill, and he happens to use it when he had that poison on. Else that tiny 1.5k damage over 6 seconds won’t hurt anybody.

Dude I myself also tried to draw references to GW1 shut down skills. Its just nowhere close.

Back in GW1, we got Insidious Parasite. We got Spoiled Victor. We got Spiteful Spirit. We got Soul Leech. In GW2, all of them had be replaced with one skill: Corrosive Poison Cloud. As if that can replace taking out 10% (around 1.5k damage in GW2 terms) of the enemy’s health each time they attack or cast a spell.

Weakness in GW1 used to cut damage by 66%. In GW2 it is 29.375% (your calculation) at best.

The whole line of “shut down” in GW1 has died in GW2. It doesn’t exist much anymore. Sure traces of it remains. But while the other classes has improved, “shut down” has taken a nose dive into the abyss.

I can throw the L2P line at you because its true, you have no understanding as to how to play a Necromancer at all. Necromancers arnt suppose to be a slippery class like theifs to escape zergs were suppose to be hard to escape from.

As for your things:

• Engineers damage is terrible, there the CC/ support class of the medium Armour. There mainly condition based outside of kits with easily dodgable long channeled skills and there grenade kit, one of there main damage sources it very unreliable as all skills are ground targets.

• Theifs without a doubt have terrible survivability. I as a power Necromancer dump on theifs who use stealth as a means of survivability with 6k+ Life Transfers, 2k Unholy Feasts and insta-killing well bombing if they attempt to Heart-seeker spam.

• Rangers have 0 support.

For someone who has tested ‘nearly everything’ you know absolutely nothing about Necros.

CHIPS.6018:

Poison, well let’s hope the guy happens to equip a long recharge 40 second cooldown healing skill, and he happens to use it when he had that poison on. Else that 1.5k damage over 6 seconds won’t hurt anybody.

Focus 5 > Corrupt Boon > Plague Signet? You know you cant keep thinking about classes and comparing single skills, combining skills is like 99% of PvP.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It’s also easy to say that necros suck at support, but in reality, they are almost as good as a support-spec Guardian. Guardians are just a lot more noticeable.

Both classes support very well, but do so in different ways. Guardians buff and shield allies, necros shut down and control enemies. Everyone can see exactly how a Guardian is helping because they are flashy and make this nice line of yellow pentagons on your status bar. Necros put a bunch of red pentagons on the enemy instead, but how many folks pay a lot of attention to that? Really all they look at there is health and not conditions.

Consider that against a player who did not invest in precision or crit damage, Weakness is, on average, a 29.375% reduction in damage (glancing blows deal 25-50% normal damage) Against PvE content, this is against pretty much everything you face. Blind is well known in effects. Constant chill makes it so the target can only use it’s non-auto attack skills 1/3 as often. Poison makes healing enemies regain health at 2/3 normal rate. Fear locks them out of doing anything at all.

Since necros can also grant protection to the party (via traited wells or Spectral Wall), the damage reduction from enemies can become immense, even beyond what a Guardian can provide.

TLDR: We are a very strong support class. We just do it in a far more subtle manner.

there is so much misinformation in this one post it is absolutely hilarious

If this guy even plays a necro it’s obvious he hasn’t paid any attention to what the abilities he is talking about here actually do

It’s pathetic this is the type of player who is arguing that necros are fine, l2p.

Spinal Shivers
Chillblains
Spectral Grasp
Dark Path

Huh, that’s 4 skills right there that cause chill. One of which every necro has access to regardless of build. Traited, we can also add:

Deathly Swarm
Well of Darkness
Plague (2)
Haunt (Shadow Fiend)

For someone who claims to have tested everything, you sure don’t seem to be very knowledgeable of what you’re testing.

For WvW, Epidemic is king. Drop Greater Marks on your target, Epidemic away. Even with all the condition removal flying around, the sheer volume of it will not remove everything you did. Recall that everything has that 5 target limit, while you probably just put conditions on 25 people. Besides, you can apply conditions much faster than they can be removed.

Dredlord.8076:

there is so much misinformation in this one post it is absolutely hilarious

If this guy even plays a necro it’s obvious he hasn’t paid any attention to what the abilities he is talking about here actually do

It’s pathetic this is the type of player who is arguing that necros are fine, l2p.

Oh really? What “misinformation” is in there? I can show all of the math if you want and it will check out.

Indeed “l2p”.

oh yes please do show me your math…

I would love to have a good laugh

Chill is indeed pretty good. It is too bad that we only have 1 skill that applies chill, which is pretty sad since necros worships Grenth.

1 skill? Cant say you know the class very well can you? Focus #5, Staff #3, DS #2.

Support
I agree wholeheartedly with Drarnor Kunoram when he says that we do it in a “subtle” manner. When you ask about support, most people instinctively think of yellow hexagons above your utility slots. Seldom do people think of support as shutting down the enemy, hampering their escape or damage output. There’s more than one way to support. In WvW, I’ve Corrupt Boon frontline full-boon Guardians and Elementalists more times than I care to remember, and they’ve almost always died. Do people notice that the full row boons just flipped into conditions? Do you notice it? Without these line breakers, I’d say I’m contributing tremendously to my team. Our easy access to cripple and chill also helps to keep over-extended enemies that way = easy kill for the team. How is a boon going to help me in that situation?

Damage
For some odd reason, people only like comparing damage as numbers flat out. You cant compare a Necro’s damage against a Thief’s damage. Heck, you cant compare anyone’s damage to a Thief’s. Yes, it’s true we dont do as much damage as a thief. But whatever happened to range and cool-down? To do big damage on thief, you have to be in melee range! Think of the thief as high risk, high reward. I would think of (a staff) Necro as low risk, medium reward. You know what the problem is? Necro doesnt suit your playstyle. And I quote:

The faster you kill your enemy the better.

You just pointed out at you want to shut people down ASAP. Although I do agree that the faster you kill your enemy, the better. But it’s situational. Countless times during sieges and bridge/chokepoint fights, I see the thiefs, warriors/guardians and other GC specs hanging out at the back while the professions with better range are holding ground. In that situation, who cares how much damage you can do when you cant even unload your damage without getting killed? I.E. high risk, high reward.

Death Shroud
I think DS is grossly misinterpreted in the community. You have to distinguish between the different types of “survivability”. I think DS is great survivability against sustained damage. It’s a freely replenish-able resource, granted you trait for it, and DS #3 is also a great interrupt. On the flip side, it’s not that useful against burst because it gets eaten through in a matter of seconds, and takes a couple seconds to refill.

Condition Damage
Again, people always bring up the issue with rampant condition removal in WvW, passive or not. If you’re playing conditions, you have to understand you’re playing a pressure game. Passive condition removal is at every defined interval, cleanse cannot occur without using a skill with a CD. It’s pressure play. Should one wipe conditions now, or wait till your passive removes it? What if your passive removes the “wrong” condition if you have more than 1 condition (poison instead of the 10 stacks of bleed)? If you use your wipe now, you dont have it for the next 20+ seconds. It puts the pressure on opponents, and you cant deny that pressure affects your gameplay, sometimes adversely.

So there, CHIPS, I addressed your issues. Bear in mind this is not a L2P post, nor am I saying you’re wrong, but maybe a different perspective would be beneficial. The Necro class is a very subtle class and it takes a lot of time, pondering and tinkering before you start to appreciate the mechanics of it.

Ascii.9726:

I can throw the L2P line at you because its true, you have no understanding as to how to play a Necromancer at all. Necromancers arnt suppose to be a slippery class like theifs to escape zergs were suppose to be hard to escape from.

As for your things:

• Engineers damage is terrible, there the CC/ support class of the medium Armour. There mainly condition based outside of kits with easily dodgable long channeled skills and there grenade kit, one of there main damage sources it very unreliable as all skills are ground targets.

• Theifs without a doubt have terrible survivability. I as a power Necromancer dump on theifs who use stealth as a means of survivability with 6k+ Life Transfers, 2k Unholy Feasts and insta-killing well bombing if they attempt to Heart-seeker spam.

• Rangers have 0 support.

For someone who has tested ‘nearly everything’ you know absolutely nothing about Necros.

CHIPS.6018:

Poison, well let’s hope the guy happens to equip a long recharge 40 second cooldown healing skill, and he happens to use it when he had that poison on. Else that 1.5k damage over 6 seconds won’t hurt anybody.

Focus 5 > Corrupt Boon > Plague Signet? You know you cant keep thinking about classes and comparing single skills, combining skills is like 99% of PvP.

You would need to play a glass cannon build and face a totally noob thief to hit him for 6k with Life Transfers. LT is not a reliable damage skill because it is easily dodged and easily interrupted. There is also that animation where your necro holds out her hand before doing LT. Any decent player would interrupt or dodge that. I fear my fellow necros to interrupt them all the time when they do that.

Retaliation against thief’s 4-8k damage a hit? Please don’t even get me started. Back in GW1, skills like Empathy works because the assassin would actually take more damage than he would be dealing. In GW2… nvm just don’t get me started.

Wells? Thieves can wait 5 seconds to kill you no problem. What’s next? Spam your marks and hope they hit your stealth thief? ^^

Engineers is necro’s underpowered pal at the moment. I cannot comment on engineers’ damage, because I almost never see an engineer in wvw. Either way, neither necro or the engineer is the norm of damage. Their damage are both subpar.

Ranger pets can teleport up fortress walls. In a siege, you can’t get better team support than this.

CHIPS.6018:

LT is not a reliable damage skill because it is easily dodged

Life Transfer needs no target, and isn’t a ground targeting AoE, it hits you no matter what. If your implying it can be dodged with dodge itself then ANY skill in the game can be “easily dodged” second to unblockable marks, Life Transfer is probably the most reliable hitting skill in the game. Your argument here is invalid.

CHIPS.6018:

Retaliation against thief’s 4-8k damage a hit

Who said anything about Retaliation? I was talking about Unholy Feasts raw damage, which again is a non-targeting non-ground targeting AoE that wont miss unless they dodge. Your argument here is invalid.

CHIPS.6018:

Wells? Thieves can wait 5 seconds to kill you no problem. What’s next? Spam your marks and hope they hit your stealth thief? ^^

It sounds like this is what you’ve been doing lol. You never tried to control a theifs movement into the wells? Its Necro 101.

CHIPS.6018:

Ranger pets can teleport up fortress walls. In a siege, you can’t get better team support than this.

Firstly that’s called a bug, causing the pets to run through objects and also Mist Wurm can so that legit and again Life Transfer hits through walls and ontop of it. Your argument here is invalid.

CHIPS.6018:

Engineers is necro’s underpowered pal at the moment.

I run a 2 man havoc squad with a engineer, they are FAR from underpowered. We clear supply camps in about 20 seconds. Engineers are massive boon support not damage and Necros out-damage them in PvP. Your argument here is invalid.

Now show us a viable single build that can do more than 2 or 3 of those wonderful abilities. We DO have some great utilities but many are mutually exclusive/weapon specific/specialised or have limited durations on long cooldowns resulting in a limited number builds that have a very narrow focus (eg conditionmancer) otherwise it means just plain ordinary effectiveness.

Ascii.9726:

CHIPS.6018:

LT is not a reliable damage skill because it is easily dodged

Life Transfer needs no target, and isn’t a ground targeting AoE, it hits you no matter what. If your implying it can be dodged with dodge itself then ANY skill in the game can be “easily dodged” second to unblockable marks, Life Transfer is probably the most reliable hitting skill in the game. Your argument here is invalid.

CHIPS.6018:

Retaliation against thief’s 4-8k damage a hit

Who said anything about Retaliation? I was talking about Unholy Feasts raw damage, which again is a non-targeting non-ground targeting AoE that wont miss unless they dodge. Your argument here is invalid.

CHIPS.6018:

Wells? Thieves can wait 5 seconds to kill you no problem. What’s next? Spam your marks and hope they hit your stealth thief? ^^

It sounds like this is what you’ve been doing lol. You never tried to control a theifs movement into the wells? Its Necro 101.

CHIPS.6018:

Ranger pets can teleport up fortress walls. In a siege, you can’t get better team support than this.

Firstly that’s called a bug, causing the pets to run through objects and also Mist Wurm can so that legit and again Life Transfer hits through walls and ontop of it. Your argument here is invalid.

CHIPS.6018:

Engineers is necro’s underpowered pal at the moment.

I run a 2 man havoc squad with a engineer, they are FAR from underpowered. We clear supply camps in about 20 seconds. Engineers are massive boon support not damage and Necros out-damage them in PvP. Your argument here is invalid.

LT suffers the same problem as all other channelling skills. Do you remember Meteor Shower from GW1? It was rarely used in pvp because it’s 5 second cast time is asking for interrupts. LT is similar. Granted LT begins dealing damage right away, but to “complete” 100% damage the necro must not be interrupted in those few seconds. And LT has a pretty small radius so you can escape by dodging backwards. So only your first maybe 1 or 2 pulses would hit, effectively cutting down your damage by ~80%.

Sure all skills can be dodged. But not many are as obvious as LT. Think about it. You turn into DS, huge indicator that LT is coming up. And LT has a different animation to other DS skills. How much more hint does your enemy need? So nope LT is not reliable at all. Valid point.

Unholy feast for “spectacular” raw damage against a single target? Are we even talking about the same skill here?

Necro 101 huh? Sounds like we are abusing thief 001 students to me. Here let me cast my well and then pull you into it. Or I can chill you and then well on you. I love my Firestorm warrior with crippling shot too. ^^

Ranger bugs? K how about I pull out “Search and Rescue”, all their spirits and traps. Enough support for you?

As for engineers, you would need to talk to someone who played one.

Dredlord.8076:

oh yes please do show me your math…

I would love to have a good laugh

My math was off before, but it still does a rather significant amount.

1. With no additional precision beyond base values, characters have a 4% crit chance. Due to the extremely low frequency of mob hits in PvE, it is safe to assume they have the same crit chance. If you question this, go to Heart of the Mists, remove all equipment, and refund your trait points. You do indeed have a 4% base crit chance.

2. Without additional crit damage, a critical hit deals 150% normal damage.

3. Weakness only effects 50% of non-critical hits. This is explicit in the tooltip.

4. Glancing blows deal 25%-50% normal damage.

So, between these three, we have a 96% chance that an attack will not crit. However, those that do deal an additional 50% damage. As such, these 4% of hits will deal the damage of 6% (4*1.5=6). This leaves us with effectively 94% that may be affected by weakness.
Of those, 50% will not be effected. (94%/2=47%).
The average amount of damage dealt by a glancing blow is 37.5% ((25+50)/2=37.5) 47% of attacks deal an average of 37.5% normal damage. This leads to an average of 17.625% reduction in damage. (37.5*.47=17.625)

This applies to virtually everything in PvE and a number of players in PvP. While players will most likely have higher crit chances, Weakness also greatly hurts their ability to avoid attacks via Dodge. Either way, you are doing a very significant amount of support from just the one condition both in damage mitigation and in mitigation of your enemy’s defense. Keep in mind necros can easily maintain this condition on single or multiple targets.

For Chill: 66% reduced recharge rate means those skill cooldowns recharge at 34% of the normal rate (or effectively 1/3 normal rate). Every 3 seconds chilled lets your skills tick 1 second off their cooldown. Yup, pretty hefty mitigation, since the hardest-hitting attacks always have cooldowns. This isn’t even counting the movement reduction which affects avoidance and closing gaps.

Poison is a 33% healing reduction. I really shouldn’t have to explain this one, though Consume Conditions and Hide in Shadows are the only healing skills in the game that flat-out ignore this debuff (Consume Conditions actually becoming stronger).

Blind is actually more effective than Aegis for preventing an attack from connecting. Blind makes an AoE attack miss everyone. Aegis only protects the person it is on. Likewise, no skill bypasses the miss caused by blind, but there are several unblockable skills. The exception here is against Champions and Legendary NPC’s as their buff from that status causes blinds to only be effective 10% of the time.

Oldbugga.7029:

Now show us a viable single build that can do more than 2 or 3 of those wonderful abilities. We DO have some great utilities but many are mutually exclusive/weapon specific/specialised or have limited durations on long cooldowns resulting in a limited number builds that have a very narrow focus (eg conditionmancer) otherwise it means just plain ordinary effectiveness.

Staff. That gets you regen on allies, bleeds on enemies, poison and chill on enemies, AoE condition transfer, AoE weakness, AoE interrupt.

What else did you want? because we have another weapon set, a healing skill, 3 utilities, and elite, and trait points to go.

Been trying out a necromancer in WvW and I’d say while underpowered it is still useful in certain situations.

For PVP situations the damage dealt and whatever survivability the necromancer has is not really quite enough in comparison to someone doing 15000+ damage to you without any amount of skill, effort or risk put in. On the other hand the necro has to play all his cards right with no room for error to get the enemy out of there, otherwise they are done for.

However the amount of control that a necromancer has does make it fairly easy for another person from a damage dealing class to land their hits on the enemy.

It’s a class that shines in groups but which doesn’t make you feel all-powerful in PVP without a significant amount of skill in comparison to most other classes.

I’m not saying that you cannot be a necromancer who dominates most opponents, but I’m saying it’s far easier to be that with certain other classes. Whoever can do that receives my respect. I feel bad at times for necromancers who are doing all they can to kill a guardian character of mine while I can just facetank them without much regard for skill.

I’d be heavily in favour of some improvements to the classes damage and survivability. There’s some bugs to skills and traits which still need work.

I never said “spectacular” stop putting words in my mouth out of desperation. I said use it for its raw damage, you know the base damage + CD base + CD guaranteed to hit a stealthed theif unless they decide to dodge in stealth.

Pretty much all channeled skills can be made out by a skilled player, its the same as arguing any skill is unreliable because you can see it coming or any skill is bad because it can be dodged, lets just compare it to another channeled skill.

• Meteor Shower fixed AoE radius, unless theif is in the area, it wont hit them.
• Life Transfer Non-fixed AoE radius, hits stealth targeted in range and did i mention you can MOVE whilst channeling?

I just thought id also say 30 Soul Reaping points and XI with boon duration completely nulls out any argument.. if you can call it that, you’ve made.

Necromancers can stip all boons from enemies, remove all conditions from allies, support heal for about 5k every 30 seconds, keep perma-weakness on enemies, blind & chill non-stop for 30 seconds flat and sit on a 76k health pool.
.
.
.
.
.
What can rangers do?

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

Nickczh.6341:

So there, CHIPS, I addressed your issues. Bear in mind this is not a L2P post, nor am I saying you’re wrong, but maybe a different perspective would be beneficial. The Necro class is a very subtle class and it takes a lot of time, pondering and tinkering before you start to appreciate the mechanics of it.

Nick thanks for the well thought out post. There are some nice fruit for thoughts there. Although I don’t fully agree with the assessment.

Support: I used to play necro and mesmer in GW1. So I know fully well what a offensive support, aka shut down, looks like. Let me just say that GW1 shut down classes are MUCH better than GW2 ones. When I apply weakness, I would expect a 66% damage reduction. When I apply Backfire, I expect that each time the enemy cast a spell he/she losses 20% of their health. That kind of thing was what makes shut down powerful in GW1.

GW2 shut downs (weakness, blind, chill, etc) fails because their effects are too weak and they get removed too easily.

Damage: Warrior rifle and elementalist nukes has the similar kind of risk as necros. But they hurt more.

DS: I only want to point out that DS is an offensive ability, not defence. The only defensive thing about it is the extra hp and yes it can be replenished. Like I said in wvw I often need to run, either though losing or extra enemies joining in the fun. Necro’s high hp and DS wont save me. Gadget skills could.

Condition damage: I can see this in a 1 on 1 or small group fights. However in wvw, zergs as a whole often removes conditions super fast. For example look at a 20 vs 20 zerg fight today. You would expect at least 5 of the guys to have 4 or 5 different conditions. However that’s never the case because they get removed too fast to stack up.

“1) DS

Like I said, DS is not a defensive skill. None of the 4 skills helps you escape from a zerg"
I’m out of here.

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simple:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

In regards to this whole notion of “only condi builds are viable in tPvP” I’ll just say this: Builds don’t make good players. Good players make good builds. And then they beat the kitten out of people with them.

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

I’m guessing English is not your first language as you YET AGAIN completely misinterpret what I’ve written.

Viable and competitive are two completely different things. Every build in this game is viable. I can play any content with any build on any class and it will work. The thing is, necromancers currently have one build that is HIGHLY COMPETITIVE across all game modes. I really don’t know how I can make this any more simple for you. If you think the necromancer being subpar across all roles except one is acceptable then we have nothing more to discuss because we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement.

natsos.3692:

“1) DS

Like I said, DS is not a defensive skill. None of the 4 skills helps you escape from a zerg"
I’m out of here.

Dark Path sure does. Fire it off at an unsuspecting critter. Fear whoever is closest to you.

I’ve escaped from a zerg multiple times with this. You do still have to have a speed boost, but a good player can indeed escape zergs using death shroud. It’s not easy, but that task never is.

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

I’m guessing English is not your first language as you YET AGAIN completely misinterpret what I’ve written.

Viable and competitive are two completely different things. Every build in this game is viable. I can play any content with any build on any class and it will work. The thing is, necromancers currently have one build that is HIGHLY COMPETITIVE across all game modes. I really don’t know how I can make this any more simple for you. If you think the necromancer being subpar across all roles except one is acceptable then we have nothing more to discuss because we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement.

I’ve been playing direct damage in WvW in a Tier 2 “Highly Competitive” scenario and i wouldn’t change it for anything. I wreak most classes with the exception of bunker guardian.

Your argument that condition based Necromancers are the only “Highly Competitive” build all round is just flawed and wrong.

I don’t have a necro but i feel bad for you hope they fix these problems.

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

I’m guessing English is not your first language as you YET AGAIN completely misinterpret what I’ve written.

Viable and competitive are two completely different things. Every build in this game is viable. I can play any content with any build on any class and it will work. The thing is, necromancers currently have one build that is HIGHLY COMPETITIVE across all game modes. I really don’t know how I can make this any more simple for you. If you think the necromancer being subpar across all roles except one is acceptable then we have nothing more to discuss because we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement.

I’ve been playing direct damage in WvW in a Tier 2 “Highly Competitive” scenario and i wouldn’t change it for anything. I wreak most classes with the exception of bunker guardian.

Your argument that condition based Necromancers are the only “Highly Competitive” build all round is just flawed and wrong.

Sigh. WvW is one game mode. This is like the 4th time you failed to read what I write. I give up. Whatever. Wasting my time dealing with people who won’t even read the posts they respond to.

Craptrain.7203:

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Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

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Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

I’m guessing English is not your first language as you YET AGAIN completely misinterpret what I’ve written.

Viable and competitive are two completely different things. Every build in this game is viable. I can play any content with any build on any class and it will work. The thing is, necromancers currently have one build that is HIGHLY COMPETITIVE across all game modes. I really don’t know how I can make this any more simple for you. If you think the necromancer being subpar across all roles except one is acceptable then we have nothing more to discuss because we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement.

I’ve been playing direct damage in WvW in a Tier 2 “Highly Competitive” scenario and i wouldn’t change it for anything. I wreak most classes with the exception of bunker guardian.

Your argument that condition based Necromancers are the only “Highly Competitive” build all round is just flawed and wrong.

Sigh. WvW is one game mode. This is like the 4th time you failed to read what I write. I give up. Whatever. Wasting my time dealing with people who won’t even read the posts they respond to.

Thank you. go back to your mesmer, elementalist and guardian and play your “Highly Competitive” tPvP/sPvP/WvW/PvE/Instance builds.

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

I’m guessing English is not your first language as you YET AGAIN completely misinterpret what I’ve written.

Viable and competitive are two completely different things. Every build in this game is viable. I can play any content with any build on any class and it will work. The thing is, necromancers currently have one build that is HIGHLY COMPETITIVE across all game modes. I really don’t know how I can make this any more simple for you. If you think the necromancer being subpar across all roles except one is acceptable then we have nothing more to discuss because we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement.

I’ve been playing direct damage in WvW in a Tier 2 “Highly Competitive” scenario and i wouldn’t change it for anything. I wreak most classes with the exception of bunker guardian.

Your argument that condition based Necromancers are the only “Highly Competitive” build all round is just flawed and wrong.

Sigh. WvW is one game mode. This is like the 4th time you failed to read what I write. I give up. Whatever. Wasting my time dealing with people who won’t even read the posts they respond to.

Thank you. go back to your mesmer, elementalist and guardian and play your “Highly Competitive” tPvP/sPvP/WvW/PvE/Instance builds.

And you continue your crusade to see the necromancer remain unfixed. Let’s see who winds up happier.

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

Ascii.9726:

Craptrain.7203:

I notice a lot of you look at this from a purely WvW perspective.

I would be curious to see how well all your ‘great’ necro builds work in tPvP, because I can tell you without a doubt that if you’re not condition based, you’re dead weight.

Listen, the condition necro is wonderful. It does what it needs to do and does it well. The issue is that currently, as far as tPvP is concerned, that’s the ONLY necro build that does its job as well as or better than another class. Any other necro build is just wasting a slot that could be better filled with another class. THAT is a problem.

Im uploading a game i played just now on my support Necromancer and heres a screenshot from a game yesterday, full support.

Could you please go back and read my post. I specifically mention tPvP, not hot joins. I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. Doesn’t mean they’re good.

“I can get 300+ points in hot joins with builds I blindly threw together. " admittance Necros arnt as bad as there being made out firstly.

Im not sure how much tPvP you play, but Necros are pretty much staple in every team because there a counter to bunker guardians solo defending mid. Go watch any tPvP video or stream on twitch from team paradigm and watch.

I’m not sure you’re actually reading what I’m writing…

First off, when I refer to “builds I blindly threw together” I’m not referring to necros. In case you missed the signature, I play a variety of classes.

Secondly, did you happen to notice how nearly all of those tPvP necros are set up? Conditions. The one build I stated earlier was working well.

Please please please, for the love of god, read what I write before responding.

Your saying nothing. You assume i play direct for sPvP, which i dont i play support corruption and burst heal, and your asking for a build which i don’t have/ play because im not a tPvP player yet.

This thread isn’t focused on that 1% of gameplay that is tPvP, but on the whole gameplay of Necromancers.

No, I am saying something; you’ve just shown you haven’t read it. Let me make it painfully simply:

Other classes have a variety of builds that work across ALL game modes. Currently necromancer does not. It has one. That is a problem that should be addressed.

And im saying you clearly haven’t spent enough time on Necromancers if you narrow down there only viable builds to one. I’ve spent over 1,400 hours playing solely Necromancer in WvW, PvE, Dungeons, FoTM and sPvP and I’ve played multiple builds effective in all of them. They may not be AS effective as other classes can play them but they work.

I’m guessing English is not your first language as you YET AGAIN completely misinterpret what I’ve written.

Viable and competitive are two completely different things. Every build in this game is viable. I can play any content with any build on any class and it will work. The thing is, necromancers currently have one build that is HIGHLY COMPETITIVE across all game modes. I really don’t know how I can make this any more simple for you. If you think the necromancer being subpar across all roles except one is acceptable then we have nothing more to discuss because we have a fundamental philosophical disagreement.

I’ve been playing direct damage in WvW in a Tier 2 “Highly Competitive” scenario and i wouldn’t change it for anything. I wreak most classes with the exception of bunker guardian.

Your argument that condition based Necromancers are the only “Highly Competitive” build all round is just flawed and wrong.

Sigh. WvW is one game mode. This is like the 4th time you failed to read what I write. I give up. Whatever. Wasting my time dealing with people who won’t even read the posts they respond to.

Thank you. go back to your mesmer, elementalist and guardian and play your “Highly Competitive” tPvP/sPvP/WvW/PvE/Instance builds.

And you continue your crusade to see the necromancer remain unfixed. Let’s see who winds up happier.

Never once did i say Necromancers are perfect or close to it, merely not as terrible in the trinity way as the OP makes them out to be. Important bugs hold the class back.

I think necro’s are fine, and saying necro hasn’t got survivability is just incorrect. They got great condition removal, heal, cripple’s, chills, blinds and got DS and also plague form. and I don’t think any class will get away from a 10 man zerg.

in sPvP and tPvP condition build is the way to go I do believe you can run support ect. but I think in tPvP that just wouldn’t be wise and I feel that is one of necro’s main problems in tPvP but for WvW or pve they have good survival damage and support.

Also the remark ‘conditions are easily removed’ isn’t that strong because you take away someone’s ability to damage because they need to remove conditions. Either they get eaten alive or use precious time to remove conditions while your thiefs shred them up either way without you their lives would have been allot easier

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Dredlord.8076:

oh yes please do show me your math…

I would love to have a good laugh

My math was off before, but it still does a rather significant amount.

1. With no additional precision beyond base values, characters have a 4% crit chance. Due to the extremely low frequency of mob hits in PvE, it is safe to assume they have the same crit chance. If you question this, go to Heart of the Mists, remove all equipment, and refund your trait points. You do indeed have a 4% base crit chance.

2. Without additional crit damage, a critical hit deals 150% normal damage.

3. Weakness only effects 50% of non-critical hits. This is explicit in the tooltip.

4. Glancing blows deal 25%-50% normal damage.

So, between these three, we have a 96% chance that an attack will not crit. However, those that do deal an additional 50% damage. As such, these 4% of hits will deal the damage of 6% (4*1.5=6). This leaves us with effectively 94% that may be affected by weakness.
Of those, 50% will not be effected. (94%/2=47%).
The average amount of damage dealt by a glancing blow is 37.5% ((25+50)/2=37.5) 47% of attacks deal an average of 37.5% normal damage. This leads to an average of 17.625% reduction in damage. (37.5*.47=17.625)

This applies to virtually everything in PvE and a number of players in PvP. While players will most likely have higher crit chances, Weakness also greatly hurts their ability to avoid attacks via Dodge. Either way, you are doing a very significant amount of support from just the one condition both in damage mitigation and in mitigation of your enemy’s defense. Keep in mind necros can easily maintain this condition on single or multiple targets.

For Chill: 66% reduced recharge rate means those skill cooldowns recharge at 34% of the normal rate (or effectively 1/3 normal rate). Every 3 seconds chilled lets your skills tick 1 second off their cooldown. Yup, pretty hefty mitigation, since the hardest-hitting attacks always have cooldowns. This isn’t even counting the movement reduction which affects avoidance and closing gaps.

Poison is a 33% healing reduction. I really shouldn’t have to explain this one, though Consume Conditions and Hide in Shadows are the only healing skills in the game that flat-out ignore this debuff (Consume Conditions actually becoming stronger).

Blind is actually more effective than Aegis for preventing an attack from connecting. Blind makes an AoE attack miss everyone. Aegis only protects the person it is on. Likewise, no skill bypasses the miss caused by blind, but there are several unblockable skills. The exception here is against Champions and Legendary NPC’s as their buff from that status causes blinds to only be effective 10% of the time.

well you are still wrong but at least you are getting closer and thank you for admitting your math was wrong originally

try getting your facts strait then try your math again

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakness

a glancing blow does half damage not somewhere between 25 – 50% and yes in your perfect world you will always be fighting someone with 4% crit who never receives a fury buff from anywhere.

That said, weakness is a great skill for fighting bunker builds and I have argued in other threads that it is quite valuable but it is not a support skill.

For Chill: it is the opposite of what you are thinking and your math is still fail

hint: use the reciprocal so around 60% of the normal rate easily seen if you take a 1 second cooldown and increase it by 66% for just under 2 attacks in 3 seconds compared to 3 normally. So about half as effective as you claim.

If you are going to post about necro at least get your facts strait, these boards are so full of people posting missinformation like you.

I dont know why you posted all that other kitten about poison and blind as there was no math mistakes for you to make there…

As I have said many times before, metadata lists of abilities are not viable builds and when you examine the ability numbers/duration/cooldowns and try and match them with weapon skills and traits you will see why there are only a very limited number of builds that are barely viable given the current state of bugs and trait synergies.

I have actually pleaded with the devs for an example of how to build a necro that matches their vision of the profession…I do not believe it possible with the current trait structures and abilities and no-one has showed one that can do what the devs say a necro is supposed to be. All we get trotted out relentlessly is a list of possible abilities which in themselves look good until you try and make a build with them…then the bugs/numbers/cooldowns/exclusions/trait structures quickly demolish that vision…still doesn’t stop them being repeated ad nauseum by the cheer squad..

To those who just want to cheer lead “the necro is OK” then that is your prerogative but I do not want to remain shoehorned into really limited playstyles just to be competitive when this profession offers so much potential that is held back (maybe deliberately).

I am not normally a whiner and if you perceive my comments as such then you need some lessons in comprehension. As a passionate player of the necro in my own limited way, I only want the best for the profession and the game at large. Comments like Hackks ones above do nothing to progress the multitude of issues with the necro and the devs just turn away from such juvenile bickering and chest thumping leaving valid issues unaddressed.

well said Oldbugga

Ascii… I realise that you are actually trying to help in your own way… but dude. Don’t make a mountain out of mole hill. Class is broken and its by far the biggest joke of an mmo class I’ve seen in a last decade. There was warlocks in vanilla on release… but when blizzard was still alive they did CARE, it was unfinished class and they didn’t change tooltips to clarify that its working as intended.
Problem is any kind of “giving a kitten #8221; we got this…“Mr. L2DEATHSHROUD” coming here for that already. We all heard about “much needed love” in beta… which resulted in nerfs. We got ignored for 2 or was it 3 months after game went live by never even appearing in patch notes. Most important bugs are here still… since beta. While mesmer/guardian/warrior/thiefs bugs get fixed in… well…
We got some kind of jumble puzzle for talents with half of them either not doing anything useful or just being flat out broken. There is hardly any synergy because everything is so randomly tossed around. We are the only class with melee weapon that don’t cleave…. and yet we are wearing light armor. One of our weapons is a sad sad joke, I don’t think I even need to bother pointing fingers. Then theres staff…. i can outrun the projectile…Why is it we are the only class that does everything with utility skills… while our weapons are mostly decorations?
Death shroud is the most out of place mechanic in this game bar nothing. It lacks synergy with class in any coherent manner. Is it as terrible as people make it out to be… nah. It still gives you a “bubble” unfortunately thats all it does. Life transfer is all great and all that… but its great for pve, considering damage on it is incremental you can shrug off ~15% of it with 1 dodge around the end of channeling.
Condition removals,transfers blah blah blah all sound good on paper. They aren’t that spectacular in practice. Plague signed got reduced to utter joke… It never did all that it claimed to do… but now it requires target for stun break and since it has LoS element its affected by gw2 borderline moronic LoS mechanics, meaning it will work maybe 1 out of 4 times you try. Same for corrupt boon but even more so it seems.
I pre-ordered this game for necromancer. Because I hate melee classes and I always stick to magic ranged classes I simply adore classes that require some strategy instead of mashing 1 button until your finger bleeds. Yeah I wanted to play “necromancer” yet my minions are the worst part of the class. Made out of paper…do next to no damage… rather often don’t do anything… 1 semi competent minion doesn’t work under water… 2 out of 3 elites remove all minions (seriously?) with the meager ways to heal your noodle squad on land you have NONE under water, you loose 1 that regenerates and does decent damage get single elite that doesn’t help MM in any way and loose all means of healing. Sounds like an epic job on a necromancer that has no self created support/meat shield army. And the list of problems keeps going with minions but I’m too tired to even talk about it by now.
This game does a lot of things horribly at its core and thats where the problems are. PvP scoring is just kitten You are not benefiting from winning… you benefit from zerging. One team with everyone being <rank 5… the other team all in 30s?… really? Yeah we can imagine the outcome.
If anything, now dead bioware, did great with SWToR was pvp scoring. You got your “pat on a shoulder” for every meaningful action that can be tracked by the game. Protecting allies, healing, holding points, doing damage, taking damage and surviving etc. Here its all about who got skirmishers…
And as always devs can’t do DoT classes at all. Even if every class got pletora of defenses against it… god forbid its treated the same way as any other damage.
Conditions here benefit from just 1 stat. THATS IT. Everything else is useless. Why?….
How is a class with such overwhelming “idea” to be this so called “attrition” fighter gets damage that doesn’t benefit from most stats? What about cirt? Crit damage? Power?…. Another thing SWToR managed to do pretty well…(ironic for a single player game with subscription and non-existant content past story…oh and EA lol).

All in all… you can invalidate all your points by making necro seem like a proper class withing “gw2” setting… which is already so streamlined its sad.
I can post screenshots too… they don’t mean jack.

at least you have your wells, rangers have nothing

Dredlord.8076:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Dredlord.8076:

oh yes please do show me your math…

I would love to have a good laugh

My math was off before, but it still does a rather significant amount.

1. With no additional precision beyond base values, characters have a 4% crit chance. Due to the extremely low frequency of mob hits in PvE, it is safe to assume they have the same crit chance. If you question this, go to Heart of the Mists, remove all equipment, and refund your trait points. You do indeed have a 4% base crit chance.

2. Without additional crit damage, a critical hit deals 150% normal damage.

3. Weakness only effects 50% of non-critical hits. This is explicit in the tooltip.

4. Glancing blows deal 25%-50% normal damage.

So, between these three, we have a 96% chance that an attack will not crit. However, those that do deal an additional 50% damage. As such, these 4% of hits will deal the damage of 6% (4*1.5=6). This leaves us with effectively 94% that may be affected by weakness.
Of those, 50% will not be effected. (94%/2=47%).
The average amount of damage dealt by a glancing blow is 37.5% ((25+50)/2=37.5) 47% of attacks deal an average of 37.5% normal damage. This leads to an average of 17.625% reduction in damage. (37.5*.47=17.625)

This applies to virtually everything in PvE and a number of players in PvP. While players will most likely have higher crit chances, Weakness also greatly hurts their ability to avoid attacks via Dodge. Either way, you are doing a very significant amount of support from just the one condition both in damage mitigation and in mitigation of your enemy’s defense. Keep in mind necros can easily maintain this condition on single or multiple targets.

For Chill: 66% reduced recharge rate means those skill cooldowns recharge at 34% of the normal rate (or effectively 1/3 normal rate). Every 3 seconds chilled lets your skills tick 1 second off their cooldown. Yup, pretty hefty mitigation, since the hardest-hitting attacks always have cooldowns. This isn’t even counting the movement reduction which affects avoidance and closing gaps.

Poison is a 33% healing reduction. I really shouldn’t have to explain this one, though Consume Conditions and Hide in Shadows are the only healing skills in the game that flat-out ignore this debuff (Consume Conditions actually becoming stronger).

Blind is actually more effective than Aegis for preventing an attack from connecting. Blind makes an AoE attack miss everyone. Aegis only protects the person it is on. Likewise, no skill bypasses the miss caused by blind, but there are several unblockable skills. The exception here is against Champions and Legendary NPC’s as their buff from that status causes blinds to only be effective 10% of the time.

well you are still wrong but at least you are getting closer and thank you for admitting your math was wrong originally

try getting your facts strait then try your math again

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakness

a glancing blow does half damage not somewhere between 25 – 50% and yes in your perfect world you will always be fighting someone with 4% crit who never receives a fury buff from anywhere.

That said, weakness is a great skill for fighting bunker builds and I have argued in other threads that it is quite valuable but it is not a support skill.

For Chill: it is the opposite of what you are thinking and your math is still fail

hint: use the reciprocal so around 60% of the normal rate easily seen if you take a 1 second cooldown and increase it by 66% for just under 2 attacks in 3 seconds compared to 3 normally. So about half as effective as you claim.

If you are going to post about necro at least get your facts strait, these boards are so full of people posting missinformation like you.

I dont know why you posted all that other kitten about poison and blind as there was no math mistakes for you to make there…

“perfect world” has nothing to do with it. In PvE, that is how much it will help. Against a number of players, that is how much it will help. Against glass cannons, it will not do much, but they should be killed off easily enough anyway.

A 66% reduction is a 2/3 reduction. That means it is recharging 1/3 as fast as normal (1-2/3=1/3). I don’t have a clue where you got reciprocals into it and auto-attacks don’t have a recharge to be slowed down. If you’re going by auto-attack rate, no wonder you’re confused.

@Oldbugga: I seem to remeber that in your whining about that, I posted a build that fulfilled the dev’s vision and was rather viable. You dismissed it for no reason other than to continue your whining.