Guild Wars 2

now, we can all admit we hate the trait. Some use it some dont (me being one of the ones that don’t) to me burning just doesnt suit the class what so ever. If it could be changed what would YOU want the trait to become?

Personally i would like to see:

Tormented: Inflict 5 stacks of Torment for 3 seconds Critical hit. 10 second cooldown

I have gone with 3 seconds and higher stacks so that it cant be abused with condition duration and just have it nonstop. After all, it is a Grandmaster trait so it should be grandmaster powerful

Another idea could be a trait that Steals a Boon and sends them a condition on Crital hits. something like:

(Needs a name) – 50% Chance on Crital hit to steal a enemy boon and send them a condition, 10second cool down

I don’t mind having burning under my condition belt. the thing is that the condition is dominating our other conditions.

It all comes back to the vision of what necromancers should be.

I would like to see torment to have a siphon application to it trough traits: steal hp each step your opponent takes or something.

I would love some immobilize instead of burning. then again the condicleanse atm dictates necromancer to go dhuumfire if they want to go condi.

Also retaliation should have a boost for necro’s (it’s so utterly useless as it is atm and could realy be usefull with the new healing signet of bad if it wasn’t nerfed)

Also i feel blind should be the first applied condition upon transfer/application/conversion. the duration of blind in combination with cleanse hardly ever sticks (add to that the 1 hit/miss and blind doesn’t work anymore)

iow. having well with a dark combo blast sound great but are cleansed immediatly and thus useless. same goes with light fields.. retal sounds great.. but in reality does little.
as for our spectral field/blast this is the most usefull blast shamefully.. yet it hardly ever activates (specral wall+putrid)

so I feel that dhuumfire is needed now because of all other shortcomings in our fields/blasts/condition application (and other nerfs to go with ) without going Duumb.

AI meta is born.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

iow. having well with a dark combo blast sound great but are cleansed immediatly and thus useless. same goes with light fields.. retal sounds great.. but in reality does little.

Our problem is the fact we offer SO little in Combos, we have 2 blast finishers and that is it. Projectile at 20% chance on staff as well which is VERY poor.

We have so little access to some and even no access to some Boons as well which is rather annoying.

I do agree that for some builds it seems like it is required trait now, Yet i wonder what we would be like had they not introduced this trait which wasnt even wanted to begin with – would we still have been nerfed so much? I dont think we would have.

Anet just cant seem to be able to admit when they are wrong and they WERE wrong with this trait.

I have been going MM myself recently..
well sort of..

At the moment i am trying to play a mixed MM “Oh well.. ‘O’ mancer” with the rat minions to blast.. since nothing else really is effective due to long casting times ^^

I have accepted Dumbfire as fact now, yet never use it except in roaming wvw.
I had the feeling they wanted Dhuumfire on other professions and added it to necromancer as an afterthought, "like; oh wait, we forgot about necro’s again)

I just wonder why they stepped away from guildwars original necromancer.

I often have the feeling i am playing other professions when playing a certain build
“Oh this feels like a thief” with D/D, yet not effective like one..
“Oh this feels like a guardian” with wells, yet not as effective..
etc.

Yet Mm doesn’t make me feel like an MM.. it’s just extra layers of protection for enemies to peel away.

Only the condimancer with scepter :S feels like a necromancer.. but even that build is too zerky to really feel like a necromancer.

If this game was about position plays then every corpse should be considered dangerous if a necromancer was around.. #nostalgia

Better explanation: I always feel we are missing one utility slot to be effective in any circumstance.

I run a DeathShroud build, have to say it is A LOT more fun than i had with both my MM build and my Condi build i only run with 20/0/20/0/30 and think i had Dhuumfire for like a week when it first came out and was like “Nah too cheesy for me”

It just doesnt feel like a Necromancer trait, on my Engi IP (basically Dhuumfire but costs less trait points…) feels like it belongs on the class, here it just doesn’t

Think it would be better if they changed it to another condition or just changed it altogether.

I’m a newbie Necro, so I don’t really understand the reason you guys hate dhumfire. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that they hate it, but never mentioned about the reason.
I would like to know the reason of your hate towards dhumfire. though I would be happy if they have another interesting trait for a change.
Imo dhumfire is simply not as strong as people think. The engineer has a trait in the master tier which process with a longer burning, while Necros have a Dhumfire with shorter burning duration in the grand master trait and having people saying dhumfire OP which needs to be nerf and nerf and nerf and nerf and nerf.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Tormented: Inflict 5 stacks of Torment for 3 seconds Critical hit. 10 second cooldown

So basically you ask for a better version (more OP) of Dhuumfire(burn)

We wanted and needed survivability and sustain, they gave us just another condition and thanks to that condition everything else has been nerfed assuming that EVERYONE takes it. With just 70% duration which is very easy to get from just getting the trait you get 30% duration and then you can +40% food 5second Dhuumfire proc deals 2,059 damage and thats just with 335condition damage and with 1,795 condition damage which is easy for condition builds it deals 3,884 damage in 5 seconds, that is a lot for a class and build that can throw conditions everywhere and in another 5seconds when the cool down is off, will proc again. So say a fight lasts 30 seconds, you would see 11,652damage done from this trait alone and while it might not seem like much factor in all the other conditions and you can see why it is VERY strong.

I still think that Dhuumfire is pretty strong in pve/wvwvw but it got nerfed in pvp (2 instead of 5 seconds). When Dhuumfire was introduced it was way too strong in pvp and because of this other professions condi cleansing got buffed while the necromancer got nerfed. Not only did dhuumfire get nerfed, but staff marks (putrid mark, mark of blood), grasping dead and weakening shroud also got touched by the nerf hammer.

As a full-time necromancer i can safely say that we are in a worse state than we were before the dhuumfire patch. We have seen more nerfs than buffs.

To some extend the necromancer is still viable in high tier tournament play, but it requires a lot more from yourself and your team than it ever has.

pierwola.9602:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Tormented: Inflict 5 stacks of Torment for 3 seconds Critical hit. 10 second cooldown

So basically you ask for a better version (more OP) of Dhuumfire(burn)

It wouldn’t be that much stronger, personally i would rather see it turned into something that helps our defense but seeing as this is what we got when we last asked for defense who knows what they would give us this time.

5 stacks of Torment that lasts 3 seconds would be like 1,000damage IF they move during the whole duration which is a tiny bit more than what Dhuumfire is no matter what you do. If you stop moving then its damage is like 450

This could be the something that we need to help stop people fleeing. It would need tweaking, maybe make it so that it a standalone trait and its not affected by condition duration or anything and i think it would be quite decent

Over the point that this trait made our Condition builds OP and viable meta, my only complain is that, while Guardians have blue flames for their own burning, we don’t have GREEN flames.

I hope that you all realize that any changes to Dhuumfire that doesn’t proc Torment , burning or confusion, it would be a 33%damage nerf to conditions builds.

Luke.4562:

Over the point that this trait made our Condition builds OP and viable meta, my only complain is that, while Guardians have blue flames for their own burning, we don’t have GREEN flames.

GREEN FLAME!

its to late to change/nerf buring , they already tooked a lot of our bleeds + terror dmg nerf , if they will nerf dhumfire necro will not do any dmg , devs dont listen to us….

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Luke.4562:

Over the point that this trait made our Condition builds OP and viable meta, my only complain is that, while Guardians have blue flames for their own burning, we don’t have GREEN flames.

GREEN FLAME!

I wish that blue thingy got removed already. The flame effect is just too much and that blue fluff just makes me blind. :C

I don’t think that there are changes needed for “dhuumfire” . The problem lies in the other trait lines. You see the devs probably thought that “dhuumfire” would be taken by hybrid builds which is good for build diversity but the problem is that conditionmancers started taking up the trait as well making them the glass cannon conditionmancer. Now why would conditionmancers spend 30 points to take “dhuumfire” while it is clearly in a power trait line? Simply because there are no better traits (in pvp). Let’s take a look at the four other trait lines:

-curses is the condtion damage trait line and is a relatively good trait line until you look at the grandmaster traits : “lingering curse” is good in pve but not in pvp and “withering precision” is just a joke of a grandmaster trait .

-death magic is with the first two minor traits being minion related and the two grand master traits also being minion related a trait line for minion users.

-blood magic is good if you run wells or minions but again not for anything else since life siphon sucks outside wells and minions. You can find “mark of evasion” there but without vigor or extra dodges it’s not good either.

-soul reaping is another good trait line and the only one which contains potential against dhuumfire with “foot in the grave” but since most conditionmancers run terror as well they take the trait “master of terror” instead of “near to death” which makes “foot in the grave” a lot more useful, so “foot in the grave” does not reach it’s full potential unlike dhuumfire.

So what we need is not changes to “dhuumfire” but changes to our other trait lines especially death magic and blood magic. “Dhuumfire” is not a problem but a symptom.

They could move siphion on crit to that traitline and make it stronger, since its 30 points trait. While blood traitline gives (aoe?) protection while entering ds or going out of ds.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Luke.4562:

Over the point that this trait made our Condition builds OP and viable meta, my only complain is that, while Guardians have blue flames for their own burning, we don’t have GREEN flames.

GREEN FLAME!

Yes, green flames please.

Tim.6450:

I don’t think that there are changes needed for “dhuumfire” . The problem lies in the other trait lines. You see the devs probably thought that “dhuumfire” would be taken by hybrid builds which is good for build diversity but the problem is that conditionmancers started taking up the trait as well making them the glass cannon conditionmancer. Now why would conditionmancers spend 30 points to take “dhuumfire” while it is clearly in a power trait line? Simply because there are no better traits (in pvp). Let’s take a look at the four other trait lines:

-curses is the condtion damage trait line and is a relatively good trait line until you look at the grandmaster traits : “lingering curse” is good in pve but not in pvp and “withering precision” is just a joke of a grandmaster trait .

-death magic is with the first two minor traits being minion related and the two grand master traits also being minion related a trait line for minion users.

-blood magic is good if you run wells or minions but again not for anything else since life siphon sucks outside wells and minions. You can find “mark of evasion” there but without vigor or extra dodges it’s not good either.

-soul reaping is another good trait line and the only one which contains potential against dhuumfire with “foot in the grave” but since most conditionmancers run terror as well they take the trait “master of terror” instead of “near to death” which makes “foot in the grave” a lot more useful, so “foot in the grave” does not reach it’s full potential unlike dhuumfire.

So what we need is not changes to “dhuumfire” but changes to our other trait lines especially death magic and blood magic. “Dhuumfire” is not a problem but a symptom.

Your saying other trait lines, as in upwards of 24 traits are the problem instead of one single trait that is hilarious. Dhuumfire by itself creates too much of a reason to invest 30 into spite. This limits build diversity because people have to take 30 points into spite. What you want to do is buff everything else, so there is a reason to invest in other trees. The massive problem with this is power creep. By simply changing this one trait we would have broader build diversity, so that is what should happen instead of changes to other trait lines. I’m not saying other trait lines couldn’t use changes, but changing them because of Dhuumfire is silly and ruins build diversity.

ARE YOU COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND?
adding more torment to the Necro would make it even more OP than it is right now in PvP. Just no. Not gonna happen.
Nope.

I’ll accept the trait with a bloody smile if we get a green/black flame animation for it. no I am not joking!

oh and torment is not our specialty it seems since thief mesmer and warrior applies it much better than the master of conditions but they are waiting for you to spread the love to the nearby miserable souls.

zapv.8051:

Tim.6450:

I don’t think that there are changes needed for “dhuumfire” . The problem lies in the other trait lines. You see the devs probably thought that “dhuumfire” would be taken by hybrid builds which is good for build diversity but the problem is that conditionmancers started taking up the trait as well making them the glass cannon conditionmancer. Now why would conditionmancers spend 30 points to take “dhuumfire” while it is clearly in a power trait line? Simply because there are no better traits (in pvp). Let’s take a look at the four other trait lines:

-curses is the condtion damage trait line and is a relatively good trait line until you look at the grandmaster traits : “lingering curse” is good in pve but not in pvp and “withering precision” is just a joke of a grandmaster trait .

-death magic is with the first two minor traits being minion related and the two grand master traits also being minion related a trait line for minion users.

-blood magic is good if you run wells or minions but again not for anything else since life siphon sucks outside wells and minions. You can find “mark of evasion” there but without vigor or extra dodges it’s not good either.

-soul reaping is another good trait line and the only one which contains potential against dhuumfire with “foot in the grave” but since most conditionmancers run terror as well they take the trait “master of terror” instead of “near to death” which makes “foot in the grave” a lot more useful, so “foot in the grave” does not reach it’s full potential unlike dhuumfire.

So what we need is not changes to “dhuumfire” but changes to our other trait lines especially death magic and blood magic. “Dhuumfire” is not a problem but a symptom.

Your saying other trait lines, as in upwards of 24 traits are the problem instead of one single trait that is hilarious. Dhuumfire by itself creates too much of a reason to invest 30 into spite. This limits build diversity because people have to take 30 points into spite. What you want to do is buff everything else, so there is a reason to invest in other trees. The massive problem with this is power creep. By simply changing this one trait we would have broader build diversity, so that is what should happen instead of changes to other trait lines. I’m not saying other trait lines couldn’t use changes, but changing them because of Dhuumfire is silly and ruins build diversity.

I never said that 24 traits are the problem. We need changes to a few of those traits not all 24. I also didn’t say that those traits needed rework because “dhuumfire”. What I meant is that the conditionmancers choose “dhuumfire” because the other traits either don’t fit their builds or are too weak for conditionmancers.
So if we want builds without “dhuumfire” then we need traits that are on the same level as “dhuumfire” .We have two ways to achieve that:

-we nerf “dhuumfire”.

-we boost other traits to the level of “dhuumfire”.

Since making changes to “dhuumfire” will not make builds without “dhuumfire” stronger , we have to look at the second way.

Putting 30 point in spite isn’t that much a ‘waste’ (except for dhuumfire, we’re all agreed with that i assume)
+300 power are always handly, more damage from scepter that rises a little our dps, but the most important thing is the 30% condition duration. A necro who want’s to achieve 100% condition duration can obtain it with out using 2 runes from 3 different sets (which overall isn’t that great and (if I remember right) it was the standard condition set-up pre-dhuumfire).

Using Toxic cristal, veggy pizza, Hemophilia and Linering curse I allow myself 130% bleeding duration, and 80% burning. So I’m going around with Rune of Tormentor. for having 100% torment duration and 2 more stack (20 sec!) on my healing skill. I know that they aren’t popular, but I decided to give it a try.
This example of my necro is for showing the variety of choises you can have, you prefer Undead runes? Go aheah. Perplexity? Make yourself confortable. But with out the 30% bonus from spite, it would be much harder.

As I said, a patch on the overall damage would be a an huge nerf. But also a shift in the curse trait or putting it to Master, it could become a serious new meta to explore for conditioner.
Even that idea that Devs liked so much (putting the trigger not on crit, but 100% on lifeblast) would be an huge meta shifting.
Completly broken the connection between Burning and Precision.

I don’t know if Condition necros are bad or OP now (for me in seems just fine), but the future very unsure it is…

May Grenth’s Force be with us.

Zaganna.6034:

Using Toxic cristal, veggy pizza, Hemophilia and Linering curse I allow myself 130% bleeding duration

100% bleeding duration plus Lingering Curse gives you a total of +180% for scepter bleeds. The tooltip is wrong (it’s really 40% not 33%) and it modifies the base duration.

I would like to see something like that:

1st step
Replace bleed with torment (Barbed Precision/Weakening Shroud)

2nd step

JonathanSharp
We also like the idea of making Terror scale with # of conditions on your target, so there’s more “play” to trying to load your target up with a lot of condies before you hit them with Fear. Your opponent can try to keep condies low, so that Terror won’t hurt as much.

3rd step

JonPeters
Even though we wont do it for Dec 10. I just wanted to throw out a wacky possible idea for Dhuumfire that we could discuss…

• Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD.

immobilize on hit. 6 seconds ICD. Range: 0-600 (1sec), 600-900 (2sec), 900-1200 (3sec).

DanSH.6143:

ARE YOU COMPLETELY OUT OF YOUR MIND?
adding more torment to the Necro would make it even more OP than it is right now in PvP. Just no. Not gonna happen.
Nope.

More? O.o

We have ONE access to it and its terrible, sure might be AoE but rubbish number of stacks on a LONG cool down. I have seen people boasting about how they can get 18+ stacks on there OWN…

JonPeters.5630:

JonPeters
Even though we wont do it for Dec 10. I just wanted to throw out a wacky possible idea for Dhuumfire that we could discuss…

• Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD.

Not bad, It would still have people moaning though, I wish they would just it to another condition, Burning just doesn’t suit us. How about:

Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD and 25/50% chance to cause immobilize for 2seconds, 10 second cool

A little something to help us stop people running away. Though i would still change the Burning to Torment, even if it means reduces the chance to say 50% and have it inflict: Torment (5stacks) for 2 seconds with 6 second cool down. – that would be 318damage if they dont move and 637damage if they move. This is base no traits, no gear nothing. If they kept it in the same tree and same location you would already get 30% duration

I know I have posted this a lot because I think it would begin to solve the problem of dhuumfire. It was nemesis idea and posted months ago.

Move dhuumfire from spite 30 to curses 30. Move terror from curses 20 to curses 30. Now you can’t have both dhuumfire and terror in the same build.

Roll back some of the nerfs to necro bleeds so condi necros are not up.

Add a trait that is useful for power builds in spite (the power line)

Sepreh.5924:

It was nemesis idea and posted months ago.

Move dhuumfire from spite 30 to curses 30. Move terror from curses 20 to curses 30. Now you can’t have both dhuumfire and terror in the same build.

Literally everyone made this suggestion, not just nemesis.

You could actually combine both approaches:

• Torment instead of burning.
• Move that trait to gm Curses together with Terror.
• Keep JonPeters’ “burning on Life Blast” trait in Spite.

I hate it only because, It caused a huge nerf to necro’s other abilities. (like everyone has to play with dhuumfire.)
Also it’s not useful in spvp, despite all those nerfs it’s still only 2 second. They nerfed other traits(e.g. greater marks, weakenin shroud, terror) and ds for it, but it’s still 2s, it’s just a joke. I have the same trait(incendinary powder) on my engineer at “master” power tree, plus it has 7-8s of burning in spvp. Dhuumfire doesn’t deserve to be a grandmaster trait with such a low duration.
Necro is my main character, but I’m afraid to craft it some ascended armor and some more legendary weapons. Because we are getting nerfed with every patch, no build or weapon is guaranteed. Necro is an unreliable class because of constant nerfs. They gave us one useless dhuumfire then took many other good things we had for trade.

flow.6043:

Literally everyone made this suggestion, not just nemesis.

You could actually combine both approaches:

• Torment instead of burning.
• Move that trait to gm Curses together with Terror.
• Keep JonPeters’ “burning on Life Blast” trait in Spite.

Haha, I wish that everyone included the devs

With regards to the “burning on Life Blast” trait in Spite, I still think any burning trait should go into curses. The reason for this would be to open up build diversity for power based necromancers. I know I have a vested interest in saying that as I play a power necromancer, but in general I think binary, so I envision two different types of power builds.

(1) Is the prototypical power based build that we have. Kill the enemy as quick as possible. Go full berserker, get the best power, precision and crit damage that you can, use life blast and dagger one to get your target down before they can get you down.

(2) Is a more attrition based build. I might be missing something, but I do not think it currently exists for power builds. It is more of a “lockdown” build where you disable your opponent as much as possible to keep them in combat while dealing a fair amount of direct damage, although nothing like what a berserker build can do.

Now, looking at the Spite grandmaster traits, Close to Death is a perfect trait for (1). There is nothing currently for (2) in the grandmaster line. Chill of death is a (2)-type trait. The second grandmaster should allow the player to “lock down” an enemy somehow. I am not sure what the best way to do that is, but I know that it is not through burning.

Also, putting a “lock down” type trait in Spite opens up build diversity. Just thinking off the cusp (and ignoring minion based builds), several build types could exist.

1. Tanky conditions: Tend to go 30 deep into curses with nothing in spite and the other 40 trait points are split among death magic and soul reaping

2. Hybrid: Tend to go 30 into spite and 30 into curses. Take Close to Death and Dhuumfire or Terror.

3. Glass Cannon: 30 deep into spite taking close to death, 10 curses for a little precision, 30 into soul reaping for the crit damage

4. Tanky direct damage: 30 deep into spite for damage and the “lockdown” grandmaster. Rest is put into death magic for toughness and blood magic for siphons

5. Condition lockdown: More fragile than the tanky conditions build but goes 30 into Spite for the lockdown grandmaster and condition duration and 30 into Curses for Dhuumfire or Terror

This is just a poorly thought out list, but the necromancer has so much potential and by putting a trait that doesn’t involve damage-dealing conditions into Spite, build diversity could open up.

ArmageddonAsh.6430

:
Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD and 25/50% chance to cause immobilize for 2seconds, 10 second cool

I know you frequent the sPvP forums. If we got immob on lifeblast, even on a % chance from a 30pt trait, the whine from there would be so loud we’d probably lose DeathShroud.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

…

I just wonder why they stepped away from guildwars original necromancer.

…

Better explanation: I always feel we are missing one utility slot to be effective in any circumstance.

I don’t know that class design in GW1 could translate into GW2 very well, considering the difference in most all of the mechanics I remember (pips, mana/regen instead of just cooldowns, dodges, moving while casting, etc.). You could argue that they should have just stuck more with the GW1 formula, but that’s a really old point of contention that is just a personal preference thing at the end of the day. I feel for people who feel like they lost out on an opportunity to play a new version of their favorite game, but it’s been over a year now.

Also, I wanted to make a comment about the second piece of the quote I left above, but I think I read it wrong. The comment was that I think the game is designed such that you always feel like you have some sort of weakness to insure there isn’t one build that just does everything. That’s reading “effective in any circumstance” as “effective in every circumstance”. If you meant it as “effective in any one circumstance”, then my comment doesn’t apply, though I disagree with the sentiment.

Either way, I’d be fine with seeing Dhuumfire changed to something else. Anything else, really. I just think they have to keep it at about the damage power level with respect to damage, or they’ll probably have to revert some of the bleed removals from other abilities to compensate for a more utility-based trait (like making Torment siphon health or LF or something).

I totally agree that burning should be represented as a curses grandmaster trait (30), though I disagree that terror should also be moved to the grandmaster level. Part of the problem with it being in Spite and at the 30 level, is that condition duration is also increased by 30%, which becomes a factor with more condition accessibility. Thus, not only are you adding burning, but you’re auto adding 30% duration, whereas in previous condition builds, most people ran a 0/30/30/0/10 or 0/30/30/10/0, etc. etc.

I am of the mind that we needed an additional damage condition (imo unique to necro) that could cover bleeds, but also add some more damage, given that we have 0 escape measures. Was it burning? No, in fact never did I think, oh, hey, let’s add a huge damage condition like burning, which ultimately led to a nerf to our other signature conditions (fear/terror, etc). I initially thought torment was the answer, but then they just gave it to other classes, and made it so the condition was a DS 5 ability (never followed the logic on that one). If they really wanted us to lock people down, I think torment was a great answer to our problems, though I do not agree it should have been placed in spite.

From my point of view, those of us who like to run conditions, and felt that a bleed cover/damage condition was helpful, lost a tremendous amount of durabilty being forced to run 30 into spite to pick up burning.

In my opinion, they need to come up with a power based 30 spite ability (which would help out power mancers), and then drop burning, place a torment like dmg condition in the 30 grandmaster slot, leave terror where it is at the master slot, and let us have our durability condition masters back, or hell, it would allow us to be semi tank, have minions, and run conditions, like a good necro.

I could go back to a 0/30/30/10/0 build and not need the kitten escapability to adequately do my job as a control mancer. And while you’re at it ANET, give us some death magic minor traits that gives us some reasons to go into death magic when NOT running minions to give us some build diversity.\

P.S. Anet please see the logic of granting us regen/healing of our health pool while in DS. If you are not going to give us escapability, allow us to be attrition and heal while in death shroud (i.e. via heals from other chars), etc.

Tim.6450:

zapv.8051:

Tim.6450:

I don’t think that there are changes needed for “dhuumfire” . The problem lies in the other trait lines. You see the devs probably thought that “dhuumfire” would be taken by hybrid builds which is good for build diversity but the problem is that conditionmancers started taking up the trait as well making them the glass cannon conditionmancer. Now why would conditionmancers spend 30 points to take “dhuumfire” while it is clearly in a power trait line? Simply because there are no better traits (in pvp). Let’s take a look at the four other trait lines:

-curses is the condtion damage trait line and is a relatively good trait line until you look at the grandmaster traits : “lingering curse” is good in pve but not in pvp and “withering precision” is just a joke of a grandmaster trait .

-death magic is with the first two minor traits being minion related and the two grand master traits also being minion related a trait line for minion users.

-blood magic is good if you run wells or minions but again not for anything else since life siphon sucks outside wells and minions. You can find “mark of evasion” there but without vigor or extra dodges it’s not good either.

-soul reaping is another good trait line and the only one which contains potential against dhuumfire with “foot in the grave” but since most conditionmancers run terror as well they take the trait “master of terror” instead of “near to death” which makes “foot in the grave” a lot more useful, so “foot in the grave” does not reach it’s full potential unlike dhuumfire.

So what we need is not changes to “dhuumfire” but changes to our other trait lines especially death magic and blood magic. “Dhuumfire” is not a problem but a symptom.

Your saying other trait lines, as in upwards of 24 traits are the problem instead of one single trait that is hilarious. Dhuumfire by itself creates too much of a reason to invest 30 into spite. This limits build diversity because people have to take 30 points into spite. What you want to do is buff everything else, so there is a reason to invest in other trees. The massive problem with this is power creep. By simply changing this one trait we would have broader build diversity, so that is what should happen instead of changes to other trait lines. I’m not saying other trait lines couldn’t use changes, but changing them because of Dhuumfire is silly and ruins build diversity.

I never said that 24 traits are the problem. We need changes to a few of those traits not all 24. I also didn’t say that those traits needed rework because “dhuumfire”. What I meant is that the conditionmancers choose “dhuumfire” because the other traits either don’t fit their builds or are too weak for conditionmancers.
So if we want builds without “dhuumfire” then we need traits that are on the same level as “dhuumfire” .We have two ways to achieve that:

-we nerf “dhuumfire”.

-we boost other traits to the level of “dhuumfire”.

Since making changes to “dhuumfire” will not make builds without “dhuumfire” stronger , we have to look at the second way.

What you are suggesting is called power creep. It is where everything gets stronger to match up to one thing that is really strong, and yes you are saying we need to make changes to other traits because of dhuumfire. Your saying players don’t want to take anything else because it isn’t as good as dhuumfire and you want the other things to be buffed to be as good as dhuumfire so other players will take things other than dhuumfire. That’s the definition of changing something because of something else.

This is an old debate. Here are two of the main points of contention with Dhuumfire:
1. Requires enough precision to proc the condition, steering players toward hybrid/glass builds. This resulted in nerfs to core condition skills like Fear/Terror and Bleed, which makes the community wonder why we needed Dhuumfire in the first place if the glass cannon build is so powerful that other build varieties needed damage reduction. Adding a high-dps condition to glass cannon builds just to make Necromancer competitive was not the favored solution for many forum-observers.
2. Fire does not synergize with other traits available to the Necromancer. Only raw stat increases (trait points, equipment, and consumables) affect burning damage, whereas core conditions have several more variables tied to the character build.

How about: your critical attacks reduce the duration of current target enemy boons by 1sec; increase damage output by 10% if target enemy does not have any boon

Make it dhuumchill, taking damage and movement speed greatly reduced. Fits the necro and gives us a trait to stop running foes.

zapv.8051:

Tim.6450:

zapv.8051:

Tim.6450:

I don’t think that there are changes needed for “dhuumfire” . The problem lies in the other trait lines. You see the devs probably thought that “dhuumfire” would be taken by hybrid builds which is good for build diversity but the problem is that conditionmancers started taking up the trait as well making them the glass cannon conditionmancer. Now why would conditionmancers spend 30 points to take “dhuumfire” while it is clearly in a power trait line? Simply because there are no better traits (in pvp). Let’s take a look at the four other trait lines:

-curses is the condtion damage trait line and is a relatively good trait line until you look at the grandmaster traits : “lingering curse” is good in pve but not in pvp and “withering precision” is just a joke of a grandmaster trait .

-death magic is with the first two minor traits being minion related and the two grand master traits also being minion related a trait line for minion users.

-blood magic is good if you run wells or minions but again not for anything else since life siphon sucks outside wells and minions. You can find “mark of evasion” there but without vigor or extra dodges it’s not good either.

-soul reaping is another good trait line and the only one which contains potential against dhuumfire with “foot in the grave” but since most conditionmancers run terror as well they take the trait “master of terror” instead of “near to death” which makes “foot in the grave” a lot more useful, so “foot in the grave” does not reach it’s full potential unlike dhuumfire.

So what we need is not changes to “dhuumfire” but changes to our other trait lines especially death magic and blood magic. “Dhuumfire” is not a problem but a symptom.

Your saying other trait lines, as in upwards of 24 traits are the problem instead of one single trait that is hilarious. Dhuumfire by itself creates too much of a reason to invest 30 into spite. This limits build diversity because people have to take 30 points into spite. What you want to do is buff everything else, so there is a reason to invest in other trees. The massive problem with this is power creep. By simply changing this one trait we would have broader build diversity, so that is what should happen instead of changes to other trait lines. I’m not saying other trait lines couldn’t use changes, but changing them because of Dhuumfire is silly and ruins build diversity.

I never said that 24 traits are the problem. We need changes to a few of those traits not all 24. I also didn’t say that those traits needed rework because “dhuumfire”. What I meant is that the conditionmancers choose “dhuumfire” because the other traits either don’t fit their builds or are too weak for conditionmancers.
So if we want builds without “dhuumfire” then we need traits that are on the same level as “dhuumfire” .We have two ways to achieve that:

-we nerf “dhuumfire”.

-we boost other traits to the level of “dhuumfire”.

Since making changes to “dhuumfire” will not make builds without “dhuumfire” stronger , we have to look at the second way.

What you are suggesting is called power creep. It is where everything gets stronger to match up to one thing that is really strong, and yes you are saying we need to make changes to other traits because of dhuumfire. Your saying players don’t want to take anything else because it isn’t as good as dhuumfire and you want the other things to be buffed to be as good as dhuumfire so other players will take things other than dhuumfire. That’s the definition of changing something because of something else.

So what do you suggest? Nerf “dhuumfire” to the ground so that other traits are appealing? Let’s say we try that starting from a 30/20/0/0/20 build and we try to nerf “dhuumfire” so that people will invest the 30 points into death magic or blood magic or any other trait line then spite. First the change to “dhuumfire” must be as good to compensate for the loss of “siphoned power” ,“death into life” and “parasitic bond” since the only minor traits left which are geared towards conditionmancers are “full of life” and “vampiric” the rest increase direct damage or are minion related. So even if you change “dhuumfire” to the level of other traits it will still be picked simply for the minor traits in spite and you have not promoted build diversity.

When I played like a fiend (not of late), I loved bouncing between power and condition builds, but i favored condition builds in WVW, because it just provided unique chances to use a wide range of abilities, etc (and was slightly more survivable). Plus slamming conditions on foes in small group fights (not zerg fights were 1000 people are running one button press condi removals for the group), was helpful to the group dynamics from a support aspect. However, I am not sure how things have changed from the last patch as I have stopped playing for reasons outside of game dynamics (i.e. im in bloody africa where internet is closer to dialup).

I still think to best increase build diversity would be to move it to the grandmaster curses spot, which would decrease our need to go 30 into spite to have a decent condition build. That said, I still think the build diversity for condition builds is limited in other trait lines as they do so very little to help out condition builds. I.e. Death Magic is decent for staff effects, and great for minion builds, but does little else for our builds but grant us increased toughness. Blood magic is great for wells cooldowns, and vamp effects, and by good i mean, if you build for it, as blood magic mostly supports a power build, and does little for condition builds. SR is our flexible trait line, ok for support DS, which, prior to the torment/dhuumfire patch, was not a huge use to condition builds. However, maybe that has changed, esp if you add burning to the curses line, you may even see soem 0/30/10/0/30 builds, which would be interesting from a survivability perspective. Especially if critical hit can help us keep our bleeds up and keep dhuumfire up. Thus, if you switch into DS, and start pounding with LB which on a crit could add a bleed and dhuumfire, plus using torment on DS 5, becomes more valuable to a condition build.

I could be off my rocker, but I would look forward to dhuumfire being in the curses line. However, I still want Terror as well, because it is needed for control issues. I think simply allowing us access to terror and dhuumfire in curses would be offset by the lack 30 in sprite which increases our damage and condition duration (which consequently increases fear duration).

aspirine.6852:

Make it dhuumchill, taking damage and movement speed greatly reduced. Fits the necro and gives us a trait to stop running foes.

That would be tough to implement i think, Chill doesnt do damage on its own Though i agree it would give us a better chance to stop people running.

aspirine.6852:

Make it dhuumchill, taking damage and movement speed greatly reduced. Fits the necro and gives us a trait to stop running foes.

I like this.

Frostbite - Your applications of chill cause damage and if chilled for 5 seconds, causes the target to be stunned for 1 seconds.

or Pandemonium

Your applications of fear cause 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds.

Also, fix Fear when it causes an "interrupt" to actually proc perplexity.

Tim.6450:

zapv.8051:

Tim.6450:

zapv.8051:

Tim.6450:

I don’t think that there are changes needed for “dhuumfire” . The problem lies in the other trait lines. You see the devs probably thought that “dhuumfire” would be taken by hybrid builds which is good for build diversity but the problem is that conditionmancers started taking up the trait as well making them the glass cannon conditionmancer. Now why would conditionmancers spend 30 points to take “dhuumfire” while it is clearly in a power trait line? Simply because there are no better traits (in pvp). Let’s take a look at the four other trait lines:

-curses is the condtion damage trait line and is a relatively good trait line until you look at the grandmaster traits : “lingering curse” is good in pve but not in pvp and “withering precision” is just a joke of a grandmaster trait .

-death magic is with the first two minor traits being minion related and the two grand master traits also being minion related a trait line for minion users.

-blood magic is good if you run wells or minions but again not for anything else since life siphon sucks outside wells and minions. You can find “mark of evasion” there but without vigor or extra dodges it’s not good either.

-soul reaping is another good trait line and the only one which contains potential against dhuumfire with “foot in the grave” but since most conditionmancers run terror as well they take the trait “master of terror” instead of “near to death” which makes “foot in the grave” a lot more useful, so “foot in the grave” does not reach it’s full potential unlike dhuumfire.

So what we need is not changes to “dhuumfire” but changes to our other trait lines especially death magic and blood magic. “Dhuumfire” is not a problem but a symptom.

Your saying other trait lines, as in upwards of 24 traits are the problem instead of one single trait that is hilarious. Dhuumfire by itself creates too much of a reason to invest 30 into spite. This limits build diversity because people have to take 30 points into spite. What you want to do is buff everything else, so there is a reason to invest in other trees. The massive problem with this is power creep. By simply changing this one trait we would have broader build diversity, so that is what should happen instead of changes to other trait lines. I’m not saying other trait lines couldn’t use changes, but changing them because of Dhuumfire is silly and ruins build diversity.

I never said that 24 traits are the problem. We need changes to a few of those traits not all 24. I also didn’t say that those traits needed rework because “dhuumfire”. What I meant is that the conditionmancers choose “dhuumfire” because the other traits either don’t fit their builds or are too weak for conditionmancers.
So if we want builds without “dhuumfire” then we need traits that are on the same level as “dhuumfire” .We have two ways to achieve that:

-we nerf “dhuumfire”.

-we boost other traits to the level of “dhuumfire”.

Since making changes to “dhuumfire” will not make builds without “dhuumfire” stronger , we have to look at the second way.

What you are suggesting is called power creep. It is where everything gets stronger to match up to one thing that is really strong, and yes you are saying we need to make changes to other traits because of dhuumfire. Your saying players don’t want to take anything else because it isn’t as good as dhuumfire and you want the other things to be buffed to be as good as dhuumfire so other players will take things other than dhuumfire. That’s the definition of changing something because of something else.

So what do you suggest? Nerf “dhuumfire” to the ground so that other traits are appealing? Let’s say we try that starting from a 30/20/0/0/20 build and we try to nerf “dhuumfire” so that people will invest the 30 points into death magic or blood magic or any other trait line then spite. First the change to “dhuumfire” must be as good to compensate for the loss of “siphoned power” ,“death into life” and “parasitic bond” since the only minor traits left which are geared towards conditionmancers are “full of life” and “vampiric” the rest increase direct damage or are minion related. So even if you change “dhuumfire” to the level of other traits it will still be picked simply for the minor traits in spite and you have not promoted build diversity.

You change the trait so it isn’t op, but still useful. That’s what the thread is about.

Why all the hate?
It’s a simple trait that hits like a truck. I wouldn’t complain

Zach.3264:

Why all the hate?
It’s a simple trait that hits like a truck. I wouldn’t complain

The complaints stem from the fact it wasn’t wanted. We needed help in survivability and they gave us this, which then led to nerfs left right and centre, all this for a trait that wasn’t wanted…

zapv.8051:

You change the trait so it isn’t op, but still useful. That’s what the thread is about.

This. When you see people going into 30 Spite for a trait that says something. Then considering all the nerfs we have taken simply to get the trait to begin with.

Yes, of course we want something strong – we just dont want something that it SO strong that it leads to people getting it for how strong it is, rather than how useful it could be in a build it is seen as a “must have” and thanks to that we have been nerfed everywhere for it.

ArtemisEntreri.4138:

aspirine.6852:

Make it dhuumchill, taking damage and movement speed greatly reduced. Fits the necro and gives us a trait to stop running foes.

I like this.

Frostbite – Your applications of chill cause damage and if chilled for 5 seconds, causes the target to be stunned for 1 seconds.

or Pandemonium

Your applications of fear cause 3 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds.

Also, fix Fear when it causes an “interrupt” to actually proc perplexity.

I’ve thought about something like the first one, but the damage would have to be pretty low. Especially with a stun after 5 seconds. Something like 2 bleeds maybe. Otherwise it would really op. The second one doesn’t make since because they wouldn’t be using skills while feared. Furthermore, I hope they wouldn’t give us confusion because it doesn’t really fit the class well. I do like the idea of having something that is stun oriented though. Maybe that or an immobilize. Then they could put a new gm in curses instead of weaking precision or whateverit is.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Zach.3264:

Why all the hate?
It’s a simple trait that hits like a truck. I wouldn’t complain

The complaints stem from the fact it wasn’t wanted. We needed help in survivability and they gave us this, which then led to nerfs left right and centre, all this for a trait that wasn’t wanted…

I see. I think I started my Necro after it was added, unless I hadn’t noticed.
I play Condition Necro in WvW and my Survivability seems fine however.
I tend to “burn” people down fast enough to survive, if not I have Spectral Walk and Flesh Wurm for some mobility.
That being said, if I’m chilled/crippled I have a really hard time escaping.

zapv.8051:

You change the trait so it isn’t op, but still useful. That’s what the thread is about.

Yes that is what is wanted in the terms of balance , but we also want build diversity and that’s a problem. So we also want to promote the usage of other traits for the conditionmancer but like I try to say is that nothing else really fits the conditionmancer without weakening his potential unlike “dhuumfire”. So to compensate in the terms of build diversity we have to weaken “dhuumfire” a bit more then what is balanced. So the two (build diversity vs balance) will always clash unless they modify our other trait lines.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

iow. having well with a dark combo blast sound great but are cleansed immediatly and thus useless. same goes with light fields.. retal sounds great.. but in reality does little.

Our problem is the fact we offer SO little in Combos, we have 2 blast finishers and that is it. Projectile at 20% chance on staff as well which is VERY poor.

We have so little access to some and even no access to some Boons as well which is rather annoying.

I do agree that for some builds it seems like it is required trait now, Yet i wonder what we would be like had they not introduced this trait which wasnt even wanted to begin with – would we still have been nerfed so much? I dont think we would have.

Anet just cant seem to be able to admit when they are wrong and they WERE wrong with this trait.

Defo agree. Combo fields could do with a reworl within spvp, 20% activation on staff might as well not be there. Opponents never stand in fields, the attack speed is too slow to reliably use and even IF you got lucky and managed a combo hit the effects are very weak on the projectile finishers. Thieves have easy access on weapons to fields and finishers which are useful to their class and are basically spammable at any given time.