Guild Wars 2

here is a list of the pros and cons from both specs

first is condis

pro : when you are able to lay heavy amounts of condi damage it is the strongest sustained damage a necro can go with in the entire game because it can build up to almost 5000 damage a tick in such a short amount of time ,

negative : condition cleanses , condi transfers to other players or turned into boons can prevent condi build to be effective , or certain traits that prevent conditions from doing anything at all like bezerker stance , diamond skin just to name a few .

power

pro: it is great for burst initial damage . given 2k , 3k , or possible higher damage for a short period of time that could destroy soft targets like minions , turrets , clones , in a matter or seconds .

negative : the build up is tough unless in zerg based fights and and sustain for damage is not as good as condi spec .

what is your take positive and negative about both specs ?

lorndarken.3702:

condi damage … strongest sustained damage… in the entire game… 5000 damage a tick

Whaaat?

lorndarken.3702:

power

pro: it is great for burst initial damage . given 2k , 3k , or possible higher damage for a short period of time

First of all, power builds have better sustained damage than condi builds. No contest there.
Secondly, what kind of “burst” is 2k or 3k damage? Are you talking about a lvl 1-15 PvE map? xD

lorndarken.3702:

power
negative : the build up is tough unless in zerg based fights

Build up for direct damage? And how would it be better in zergs?

lorndarken.3702:

…sustain for damage is not as good as condi spec .

One might argue the opposite considering that condi builds usually have worse life force regeneration.

I’m gotten my condi’s to tick for a total. ((Counting poison and torment)) at around 3.5 to 4k a tick. 5k seems a tad unrealistic.

flow.6043:

lorndarken.3702:

condi damage … strongest sustained damage… in the entire game… 5000 damage a tick

Whaaat?

lorndarken.3702:

power

pro: it is great for burst initial damage . given 2k , 3k , or possible higher damage for a short period of time

First of all, power builds have better sustained damage than condi builds. No contest there.
Secondly, what kind of “burst” is 2k or 3k damage? Are you talking about a lvl 1-15 PvE map? xD

lorndarken.3702:

power
negative : the build up is tough unless in zerg based fights

Build up for direct damage? And how would it be better in zergs?

lorndarken.3702:

…sustain for damage is not as good as condi spec .

One might argue the opposite considering that condi builds usually have worse life force regeneration.

i see what you did there to take what i said out of context . in the end it just makes you look silly in doing so .

as for your questions the build up for power is better suited because of other players constantly stacking might that you could have a good 25 stacks of might in on going fights to do that high burst damage .

as for the 2k 3 k that is the initial first or 2nd attack , the over all attack during a fight is a lot higher than that .

life force building is a pointless argument when most power or condi builds do not put heavy focus on death shroud in the first place unless they want to be based around a ds power build <—— which by the way is a horrible build . and by the time a player in a fight has gone through their skills in ds they are not going to just spam skill 1 when their weapon skills and utility skills help them a lot more than when they can rebuild life force as their skills in ds are all on cool down .

but lets get to the crux of your miss placed quote ,

condi damage … strongest sustained damage… in the entire game… 5000 damage a tick
Whaaat?

if you read the entire thing instead of doing what you did here ^ you would see what I really said which is

when you are able to lay heavy amounts of condi damage it is the strongest sustained damage a necro can go with in the entire game because it can build up to almost 5000 damage a tick in such a short amount of time ,

WereDragon.6083:

I’m gotten my condi’s to tick for a total. ((Counting poison and torment)) at around 3.5 to 4k a tick. 5k seems a tad unrealistic.

no , you can get there , if you have stack of might going on . which power is blood chained in return with putrid mark and after mark of blood and then switch to scepter and off hand dagger you can get higher in dots of course you need to also use poison and malice and fear of course the ticks can get to that 5 k or more depending how much migth you got going on . but you also need to be running the right runes and sigils to pull it off .

I didn’t mean to take anything out of context, I was genuinely confused by your statements, and I still am to be honest:

Are we talking about PvE or PvP/WvW here?
The only place where you can even begin to talk about high sustained condition damage is PvE, because like you said: players cleanse.
Then you also mention transfers, boon conversion, condi immunities, …. which made me believe all the more you were talking about a PvP environment.

So let me try to get this right here:

1. You say the damage potential of condition builds with up to 5k/tick is higher than that of power builds, in fact it’s the best we can do, period.
2. You point out as a negative of power builds that they have a build up time and initially only start out with 2-3k, but then they get higher. And this somehow doesn’t happen in zerg fights…?

So let me ask you this, if power builds need a build up time then how on earth would you describe condition damage?
You know, there’s a reason why the PvE meta for all classes is full zerker power builds: higher initial damage, higher bursts, higher sustained damage.

lorndarken.3702:

if you read the entire thing instead of doing what you did here ^ you would see what I really said which is

when you are able to lay heavy amounts of condi damage it is the strongest sustained damage a necro can go with in the entire game because it can build up to almost 5000 damage a tick in such a short amount of time

Yeah, thanks for explaining what you meant by copy pasting the exact same sentence you wrote in your first post. -_-
What do you mean by “short amount of time”? And how is any of it better than direct damage from power builds? Are you implying power builds have a lower dps than 5k?

Also, the might stacking argument could be acceptable if we were talking about a different class, but this is the necro! We don’t stack might like other classes, we get 10 stacks from Blood is Power and that’s pretty much it, unless you want to spend an even longer time Life Blasting.

And last but not least:

lorndarken.3702:

life force building is a pointless argument when most power or condi builds do not put heavy focus on death shroud in the first place unless they want to be based around a ds power build <—— which by the way is a horrible build

Again, I might agree if you’re talking about PvE.
But if this is supposed to be an argument with regards to PvP then you’re not only completely wrong, but I also have to tell you this: learn to play! There is not a single PvP build that doesn’t make heavy use of Death Shroud.

5k condi ticks? That’s less than a dagger auto attack.

flow.6043:

I didn’t mean to take anything out of context, I was genuinely confused by your statements, and I still am to be honest:

Are we talking about PvE or PvP/WvW here?
The only place where you can even begin to talk about high sustained condition damage is PvE, because like you said: players cleanse.
Then you also mention transfers, boon conversion, condi immunities, …. which made me believe all the more you were talking about a PvP environment.

So let me try to get this right here:

1. You say the damage potential of condition builds with up to 5k/tick is higher than that of power builds, in fact it’s the best we can do, period.
2. You point out as a negative of power builds that they have a build up time and initially only start out with 2-3k, but then they get higher. And this somehow doesn’t happen in zerg fights…?

So let me ask you this, if power builds need a build up time then how on earth would you describe condition damage?
You know, there’s a reason why the PvE meta for all classes is full zerker power builds: higher initial damage, higher bursts, higher sustained damage.

lorndarken.3702:

if you read the entire thing instead of doing what you did here ^ you would see what I really said which is

when you are able to lay heavy amounts of condi damage it is the strongest sustained damage a necro can go with in the entire game because it can build up to almost 5000 damage a tick in such a short amount of time

Yeah, thanks for explaining what you meant by copy pasting the exact same sentence you wrote in your first post. -_-
What do you mean by “short amount of time”? And how is any of it better than direct damage from power builds? Are you implying power builds have a lower dps than 5k?

Also, the might stacking argument could be acceptable if we were talking about a different class, but this is the necro! We don’t stack might like other classes, we get 10 stacks from Blood is Power and that’s pretty much it, unless you want to spend an even longer time Life Blasting.

And last but not least:

lorndarken.3702:

life force building is a pointless argument when most power or condi builds do not put heavy focus on death shroud in the first place unless they want to be based around a ds power build <—— which by the way is a horrible build

Again, I might agree if you’re talking about PvE.
But if this is supposed to be an argument with regards to PvP then you’re not only completely wrong, but I also have to tell you this: learn to play! There is not a single PvP build that doesn’t make heavy use of Death Shroud.

you are so confused . pvp limits the over all damage a necro can do out right , the same can be said also for pve . if you want to max damage output you have to go to wvw . the stacks from weapon , killing guards , food and oil and from giving yourself might via yourself or other players such as guardians .

since condi is sustained damage that scales when there is stacks that happen , as a condi necro you do a lot more damage than a power necro since power necros damage is at a fixed rate unless you are going for a pointless life blast ds power build . and by that factor might stacking in zergs can add more damage than that of a power build could regardless because the burst damage of a power necro is great for a very short time but for long drawn out fights the damage can not be maintained at the same rate or greater than that of a condi necro because condi offers better sustained damage over time than that as a power necro because of the duration of the damage being over time is set that way , seriously is this your first time playing a necro let alone an mmo ? . as for power builds in general go among other classes , thief would beat out a power necro in pure burst damage every time . so why play power necro when thief does more initial burst damage when necros were designed with conditions in mind ?

lorndarken.3702:

seriously is this your first time playing a necro let alone an mmo ?

Yes, you got me.

Just for the record, by “PvP” I meant WvW as well.
Also, all of what you said is wrong, literally all of it.

Pretty much every statement is the opposite of what is correct lol. Flow is correct. Sorry.

i have listed explanations detailing how necro damage is done . apparently i have not got the same in return from those that have a different opinion . since day 1 in all mmo’s including this one the over all damage at which is the highest when out damaging your opponent it has and still will be through condition than that of power . i didn’t design it this way since it has been and continues to be that way regardless of how much people want to disagree with it and have zero proof in argument against what is fact .

lets say you are attacking something for 1 minuet as a power necromancer vs a condi necromancer , what you will see is that old concept of the rabbit vs the turtle example be played out every time . the power necro is the rabbit where as the turtle is the condi necro , the rabbit would start out the race ahead at first in about 10 or 15 seconds in but that turtle would beat the rabbit because it not only catches up to the rabbit but beats it and leaves it in it’s dust when the minuet is over . the stacks of damage that condi does is a lot more than that of a power necro in the long run . until anet changes something in regards to this , you can’t really argue against it when it has been proven fact since day 1 . that is why i wanted to make a topic talking about the pro’s and cons of each spec . on how each is regarded in terms of over all combat damage and effectiveness . it’s not some favoritism of pick your favorite style of damage . each style be it power or condi have things we don’t like about it and simply ignoring those things kinda takes away from the topic .

Some of the people posting here are some of the best necromancer players around. And usually they did all math, and they understand game mechanics.

Max condition dmg is much lower then max directdmg. Nothing new, and u can´t change it.

Saying something is a fact (when it is not, since people have proven otherwise) while not bringing actual factual evidence on the table is not a smart move regardless…

If you try to make a bold point, going against Flow and Spoj, at least back up your claims…

lorndarken.3702:

here is a list of the pros and cons from both specs

first is condis

pro : when you are able to lay heavy amounts of condi damage it is the strongest sustained damage a necro can go with in the entire game because it can build up to almost 5000 damage a tick in such a short amount of time ,

negative : condition cleanses , condi transfers to other players or turned into boons can prevent condi build to be effective , or certain traits that prevent conditions from doing anything at all like bezerker stance , diamond skin just to name a few .

power

pro: it is great for burst initial damage . given 2k , 3k , or possible higher damage for a short period of time that could destroy soft targets like minions , turrets , clones , in a matter or seconds .

negative : the build up is tough unless in zerg based fights and and sustain for damage is not as good as condi spec .

what is your take positive and negative about both specs ?

normally, conditions are a constant tick(in other games, like they do their damage outright for a set amount of time, aka, 2k over x seconds) but here they have to be built up to do their maximum damage(6 stacks of bleeds or i basically ignore them) power is the sustained dps in guild wars.

I may be confused but I figured bleed damage is set by the condition damage trait and bleeds make up the majority of condition damage because Necro has infrequent access to any other type of damaging conditions.

Maybe I over-simplified things when I took a swag at where Necro’s damage came from.

Pretty much. Conditions are only good for sustain in solos on moderate to high armour targets. Everywhere else power clearly wins out.

Lopez.7369:

What I always find most perplexing about these threads is the creator almost always ends up saying that these are just his “opinions.”

To be fair, that’s not the case here.
What I find more perplexing is that lorndarken’s post history goes back 2 years. The PvE zerker meta is one of the most discussed topics on the forum. How can you miss that? And how do you not see what kind of builds other players use in game? Maybe he’s just trolling.

flow.6043:

Lopez.7369:

What I always find most perplexing about these threads is the creator almost always ends up saying that these are just his “opinions.”

To be fair, that’s not the case here.
What I find more perplexing is that lorndarken’s post history goes back 2 years. The PvE zerker meta is one of the most discussed topics on the forum. How can you miss that? And how do you not see what kind of builds other players use in game? Maybe he’s just trolling.

So, I hsvent touched my necro for a year, back then Condi was meta in WvW. I almost never did PvE with her. I should probably switch to all zeker right? Zerker or gtfo is still a thing?

aspirine.6852:

flow.6043:

Lopez.7369:

What I always find most perplexing about these threads is the creator almost always ends up saying that these are just his “opinions.”

To be fair, that’s not the case here.
What I find more perplexing is that lorndarken’s post history goes back 2 years. The PvE zerker meta is one of the most discussed topics on the forum. How can you miss that? And how do you not see what kind of builds other players use in game? Maybe he’s just trolling.

So, I hsvent touched my necro for a year, back then Condi was meta in WvW. I almost never did PvE with her. I should probably switch to all zeker right? Zerker or gtfo is still a thing?

Yup, it never went away…

Only for some solo runs, I think Rampagers was the better pick, but someone has to get me on for that because I am not sure…

It’s still a thing for dungeons.
I’m not sure condi was ever the meta in WvW, perhaps popular after dire stats were released. Anyway, run whatever you like. This thread might show a strong bias towards power builds, but this is only because it turned into a debate about dps. Condition builds are viable against players, just for different reasons than the opening post suggests.

GoogleBrandon.5073:

aspirine.6852:

flow.6043:

Lopez.7369:

What I always find most perplexing about these threads is the creator almost always ends up saying that these are just his “opinions.”

To be fair, that’s not the case here.
What I find more perplexing is that lorndarken’s post history goes back 2 years. The PvE zerker meta is one of the most discussed topics on the forum. How can you miss that? And how do you not see what kind of builds other players use in game? Maybe he’s just trolling.

So, I hsvent touched my necro for a year, back then Condi was meta in WvW. I almost never did PvE with her. I should probably switch to all zeker right? Zerker or gtfo is still a thing?

Yup, it never went away…

Only for some solo runs, I think Rampagers was the better pick, but someone has to get me on for that because I am not sure…

Thanks, I’m not playing wvw anymore, so I might have to change my armour for all my chars. Thank god for millions of karma.

This thread sounds more like a “condi is better ok bye” thread rather than “condi vs power”. If you made a thread to compare, don’t defend one side of the whole OP.

Let me start by saying that this part is about PvE. People have already said it, but it is condi that has wind up time. Reaching 25 stacks takes time, whereas in power builds you can starr the damage right away by dagger auto (or life blast). It is true that Vulnurability needs to be stacked but other than that there is no windup for power and as it is Vulnurability is easily and quickly (quicker than bleeds) stacked and maintained in groups or even solo if it is desired so. Your arguments for might windup is irrelevent as condi needs might as much as power, thus both would be affected by its speed of stacking.

Do you know how much it is calculated for a power necro dps on optimal conditions? 9-10k. The max dps of all classes are gathered and compared by people every once in a while (you can check in google or someone please provide link), and there is never ever a condi build there. Even if you do reach 5k damage (no proofs whatsoever given despite someone pointing out he couldnt do it) its around the half of what power does. And guess what, reaching that optimal conditions requires you to be in a party setup and unless everyone is arranged according to you they will proc bleeds on crits, which will reduce that 5k to something lower. You can argue that condition also does power damage (its not that you do, but many condi fans do), but how much power dps you can dish out with scepter or staff anyway? You said that power is the rabbit and condi is the turtle that wins in the end, but in reality condi is kinda the pet rock.

A fully buffed condi necro does something like 7k dps (probably a bit less, maybe a bit more with the new stat combo). Thats including might, banners, other buffs and direct damage portions of rotation. And thats ignoring the ramp up time of conditions. A fully buffed power necro in the same conditions does about 10k dps and has no ramp up time. And it also has significant burst during the first 10 seconds of the fight.

Condi however has the advantage in many solos (bosses) due to its self buffing and base potential. Thats its only advantage in a PvE setting. But less than 1% of players solo dungeons on a necro. So theres pretty much no reason to bother with condi in PvE.

I didn’t know condi could reach 7k. Normally I wouldn’t ask you this as you usually give calculated results, but since I asked the OP for proof do you mind sharing the spreadsheet or records?

Edit/Note:

How much dps would full set of Sinister have?

Please also remember that a condition build does a lot of direct damage. Almost all skills have straight damage attached to them and that damage is affected by power and crit bonus. Similarly, power builds cannot avoid applying conditions. Watch for ticks on bleed, burn, poison, torment, and confusion. The rest is ordinary damage. Siphons are affected by healing so they are special.

Dagger AA applies no conditions. Scepter AA hits for direct damage with additional bleeds and poison. Sinister would help scepter /dagger but handicap dagger /wh

The power coefficient in scepter is pitiful and staff already has low damage even with high power. I suppose full set of Sinisters can be a different story, however, for full Rabids the direct damage should be negligible – the same way how bleeds deal very low damage in a Berserker set.

Pure condition damage from 3000 condi dmg:

20 (arbitrary chosen) stacks Bleeding: 20(150+42.5)=3850
Burning: 750+328=1078
Poison: 300+84=384
Terror: 750+302=1052
3 stacks torment: 3(112.5+32)=433.5

Total = 6797

I just don’t see 7k SUSTAIN achievable. 3000 condi dmg ain’t easy to get in the first place, that include ascended, might, corruption, food. Bursting may help though. But with bursting you probably can’t sustain 20stacks of bleed. Also consider dhuumfire, terror, torment are “burst”, I think 5k sustain is more realistic. Maybe sinister would push towards 7k but idk.

spoj.9672:

A fully buffed condi necro does something like 7k dps (probably a bit less, maybe a bit more with the new stat combo). Thats including might, banners, other buffs and direct damage portions of rotation.

But in this kind of scenario you’d just have a party to give you those buffs. As soon as they also attack they’d push off some of your conditions and effectively lower your dps.

Pregnantman.8259:

How much dps would full set of Sinister have?

Since those 7k dps where refering to a best case scenario it would do the exact same as carrion (minus a small amount since tuning crystals give you a smaller buff). All you get from sinister is a higher crit chance which doesn’t actually improve the highest possible damage. You’ll just average a better crit rng this way.

Afya.5842:

I just don’t see 7k SUSTAIN achievable.

I think most of it would still be direct damage. If you run scepter/warhorn and Flesh Golem you will probably do an extra ~2k with max might/vuln stacks and banners.

I said about 7k. I dont know it exactly but there was an old discussion on guru about it. The calcs showed roughly 3k condi dmg and 4k direct damage. But as you guys have pointed out. Those numbers are practically impossible to pull off even in a perfect group. Sinister would definately allow for a much greater direct damage portion without sacrificing too much condi dmg. Those conversion crystals and runes arent all that good. You probably get a lot more by going other runes and consumables with sinister than you would with carrion or rabid. Been waiting for sinister for a while for this exact reason. Plus its better for solos in PvE.

I only care about solos when using condi so my rabid set has aristocracy runes. Ill be slowly converting it to sinister and then maybe ill finally update the lupi condi solo.

I doubt aristocracy runes are the best choice for necros. I bet it makes more sense to either max bleeding duration or get some extra ferocity instead.

spoj.9672:

I said about 7k. I dont know it exactly but there was an old discussion on guru about it. The calcs showed roughly 3k condi dmg and 4k direct damage. But as you guys have pointed out. Those numbers are practically impossible to pull off even in a perfect group. Sinister would definately allow for a much greater direct damage portion without sacrificing too much condi dmg. Those conversion crystals and runes arent all that good. You probably get a lot more by going other runes and consumables with sinister than you would with carrion or rabid. Been waiting for sinister for a while for this exact reason. Plus its better for solos in PvE.

I only care about solos when using condi so my rabid set has aristocracy runes. Ill be slowly converting it to sinister and then maybe ill finally update the lupi condi solo.

I would love to see your lupi solo with sinister. What’s the current necro record?

My guildmate has the record. But its severely out of date. I have the power necro record. Which is also out of date. Since those records weve had ferocity change, aristocracy runes, dhuumfire change, weakening shroud change and now sinister. I did a test attempt with aristocracy runes about a month or two ago. You can maintain about 15-25 might. The hardest part is remembering every little part of the condi necro rotation.

http://youtu.be/fryNu0KS8iQ
http://youtu.be/Nk2NNMxp3t4

Ascii had a wvw condi-build thread a while back, which I think every necro in the world copied (I think I even tried it), but with the amount of condi cleanse out there it has been rendered useless for a while now.

In wvw, you want to put as much damage down as you can in as short of a time period as you can. Power build is the only way to do this. You should be taking people from full health to down-state in around 10 seconds or less… not 1 minute.

power has better sustained damage than condi does….HAHAHAHAHAHA…why do you even think this…..condi has hands down the better sustained dmge…and not just a little better than power….hands down way way way superior than power has….power also requires ALOT more timing in order to actually burst….while condi can rely on ranged aoe spamming and still do dmge over time even tho you are missing some of your skills…while power does 0 dmge when you miss….get real pls…stop the hoax…condi needs nerf (bigtime) or power needs buff…..(bigtime) pls stop the lies and misinforming, ty

ps. im talking wvw roam/pvp builds

condi warrior vs power warrior…condi will win same with engie, same with mesmer, same with necro…thief is prolly 50/50 condi ranger^power ranger (hands down) only guard and ele have more on power than condi…rest, condi wins hands down….condi cleanse isnt to much atm…its lacking

When the hell was condi necro the meta in wvw lol…..

necrofail.7439:

When the hell was condi necro the meta in wvw lol…..

I wouldn’t be surprised back in those times xD ahhh the good old omnomberry compote days with the dagger dagger ele commanders

Omnomberry compote is still amazing food for large fights.