Guild Wars 2

with buffs and all, does dagger aa does more dps than RS aa ?
did anyone test this in the last beta ?

I believe someone had already come to the conclusion that it was, something like… 1.35 coeff per sec versus 1.2? I could be off with these numbers but it was something like that.

Currently, the general thought is you will probably use Dagger > 50% mixed with some Reaper’s Shroud if you run a Zerker Dhuumfire build, and Gravedigger/Nightfall below 50%.

If this is a “ideal case” PvE question then… yes, dagger does more DPS. RS does cleave though. One thing to note, with reaper if you take soul reaping, you can take dhuumfire since you already max crits with decimate defense. This gives a mild DPS increase of RS AA.

If this is a PvP question: RS AA is quite more powerful because of all the traits applying on it (Unyielding Blast, Reaper’s Might, Death Perception etc…)

is a pve question yes.
so with perma 25 might, fury and vuln from party will this be the best build for a reaper camping dagger to 50% then gs ?
in blood magic only vampiric presence , the rest is free to choose.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBhQDxCugNpJI+K+FHjQDgAQLA-ThRBABXt/o8TPdDWq+CAPBAKVhwMlgkCIihWA-e

Silverkey.2078:

If this is a “ideal case” PvE question then… yes, dagger does more DPS. RS does cleave though. One thing to note, with reaper if you take soul reaping, you can take dhuumfire since you already max crits with decimate defense. This gives a mild DPS increase of RS AA.

If this is a PvP question: RS AA is quite more powerful because of all the traits applying on it (Unyielding Blast, Reaper’s Might, Death Perception etc…)

Really? Even with dhuumfire and the 15% attack speed traits? That’s a little disheartening ._.

Sabre.8627:

Silverkey.2078:

If this is a “ideal case” PvE question then… yes, dagger does more DPS. RS does cleave though. One thing to note, with reaper if you take soul reaping, you can take dhuumfire since you already max crits with decimate defense. This gives a mild DPS increase of RS AA.

If this is a PvP question: RS AA is quite more powerful because of all the traits applying on it (Unyielding Blast, Reaper’s Might, Death Perception etc…)

Really? Even with dhuumfire and the 15% attack speed traits? That’s a little disheartening ._.

I haven’t made the calculations, so maybe this is enough to make up for the DPS loss. With 25 might, the burning tick is not bad. In general, reaper shroud is still great because it ensures a very easy 25 vuln. Ideal situations always assume 25 vuln, but reaper is actually one of the best (if not the best now) class to apply them in the shroud and make that “ideal situation” an actual thing.

So I think the ideal rotation is:

• above 50%: RS AA
• below 50% gravedigger spam

….why did it just occur to me that one of the reasons we have lower DPS is because we have no repeatable spam able abilities? By that I mean skills like 100 blades, whirling wrath, heartseeker, ranger Longbow 2, I mean yeah we’ll have gravedigger finally but dear Grenth this fact eluded me for so long and just hit me like a truck…

Amending, we do have Axe 2 but well that’s only single target and poultry range.

Silverkey.2078:

Sabre.8627:

Silverkey.2078:

If this is a “ideal case” PvE question then… yes, dagger does more DPS. RS does cleave though. One thing to note, with reaper if you take soul reaping, you can take dhuumfire since you already max crits with decimate defense. This gives a mild DPS increase of RS AA.

If this is a PvP question: RS AA is quite more powerful because of all the traits applying on it (Unyielding Blast, Reaper’s Might, Death Perception etc…)

Really? Even with dhuumfire and the 15% attack speed traits? That’s a little disheartening ._.

I haven’t made the calculations, so maybe this is enough to make up for the DPS loss. With 25 might, the burning tick is not bad. In general, reaper shroud is still great because it ensures a very easy 25 vuln. Ideal situations always assume 25 vuln, but reaper is actually one of the best (if not the best now) class to apply them in the shroud and make that “ideal situation” an actual thing.

So I think the ideal rotation is:

• above 50%: RS AA
• below 50% gravedigger spam

i was thinking the same thing but in a decent party 25 vuln is really easy to reach so i dont think that focusing a reaper to be the one to stack the 25 vuln is smart, knowing that he will leave RS and spam grave digger at 50%. thats why i think that soul reaping is a waste. im not sure if 5% for having more than 50% life force is more dps than a 5 man party with vampiric aura.
camping dagger/x + 5 utilities is better imo.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNBhQDxCugNlFaCVh4s4XcMCNACAtAA-TxRBABUcRAua/R5ne6GsU9FAeCAUqChZKBDAgAsxNGAQKgIGaB-e
im learning necro tbh.

If you play in PvE as a single player RS AA will deal beter damage because let you inflict vulnerability and stack Might.
If you play in a team, then you don’t need to think about might and vulnerability, Dagger AA deal more damage because have more or less the same damage if you look on the skills but attack faster. Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

In PvP the RS is better why there’s a lot of traits that affect it, but also the dagger have a immobilize skill, that will grant you a easy way to hit your enemy (3 sec of immobility grant you more or less 8-9 hits!)

If nothing change the Dagger AA in an organized or massive PvE grant the best DPS.

That’s one of the reasons why the GS is a really bad weapon.

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

Don’t forget the inate greatsword damage increase of 10% compared to dagger.

Also RS auto does 0.98 coeff per second untraited and 1.13 coeff per second when traited with reapers onslaught. This might change with the aftercast reduction that has been announced. But its likely it will stay slightly lower than dagger.

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

GS might be better even above 50%. Would have to do coeff calcs for gs rotations without gravedigger spam to confirm though.

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

ronpierce.2760:

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

Wouldn’t you want to faceroll…err I mean use your GS skills before jumping into RS?

Also what about Death’s Charge, worth it for DPS?

Jerus.4350:

ronpierce.2760:

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

Wouldn’t you want to faceroll…err I mean use your GS skills before jumping into RS?

Also what about Death’s Charge, worth it for DPS?

Ah yeah, I had thought that earlier, forgot to say it in the above detail. That’s correct, you’d likely drop Night fall -> GD -> RS.

And I don’t know atm about deaths charge. I kind of feel like it would be a dps loss…

Edit: Its hard to brain think the dps with Dhuumfire. It might be worth using. The animation fix on Death’s charge will also change things a bit.

spoj.9672:

GS might be better even above 50%. Would have to do coeff calcs for gs rotations without gravedigger spam to confirm though.

will love to see your results.
coulld you also calculate vampiric, vampiric presence and locus swarm for dagger and grave digger on cd,vampiric and vampiric presence for gs above 50% ?

ronpierce.2760:

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

i was wondering that, at 50% spam grave digger between night falls seems the way to go, but that mean that after 50% you will be playing a 2 specialization necro cuz we wont return to shroud until the boss is dead.
not sure, wish we could have some dps meters or target dummies for pve.

Jerus.4350:

Wouldn’t you want to faceroll…err I mean use your GS skills before jumping into RS?

Also what about Death’s Charge, worth it for DPS?

If I remember correctly from the last BWE, using Death’s Charge at point blank hit around 8ish times in quick succession. These all triggered lifesteal traits, etc. With its recent 30% speed increase, maybe it’ll serve as slight burst of damage when combined with traits that trigger on all attacks w/o ICDs. Maybe.

ronpierce.2760:

Jerus.4350:

ronpierce.2760:

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

Wouldn’t you want to faceroll…err I mean use your GS skills before jumping into RS?

Also what about Death’s Charge, worth it for DPS?

Ah yeah, I had thought that earlier, forgot to say it in the above detail. That’s correct, you’d likely drop Night fall -> GD -> RS.

And I don’t know atm about deaths charge. I kind of feel like it would be a dps loss…

Edit: Its hard to brain think the dps with Dhuumfire. It might be worth using. The animation fix on Death’s charge will also change things a bit.

And work in Death Spiral and Grasping Darkness if you want lifeforce at least, not sure how they work out damage wise.

Reaper Shroud is weak and a damage loss in PvE. You use it purely to absorb damage if you totally need to and can’t evade the damage any other way.

Otherwise you camp greatsword all day in a group setting.

Jerus.4350:

ronpierce.2760:

Jerus.4350:

ronpierce.2760:

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

Wouldn’t you want to faceroll…err I mean use your GS skills before jumping into RS?

Also what about Death’s Charge, worth it for DPS?

Ah yeah, I had thought that earlier, forgot to say it in the above detail. That’s correct, you’d likely drop Night fall -> GD -> RS.

And I don’t know atm about deaths charge. I kind of feel like it would be a dps loss…

Edit: Its hard to brain think the dps with Dhuumfire. It might be worth using. The animation fix on Death’s charge will also change things a bit.

And work in Death Spiral and Grasping Darkness if you want lifeforce at least, not sure how they work out damage wise.

Ideally, dagger+Focus would likely get you up to speed on Life Force. If you’re starting at 0 (Which you likely won’t often since much of fights will be spent out of Shroud spamming GS abilities), you might use a Death Spiral for early Vuln/LF, but I don’t think it would particularly boost your DPS. Neither skill hits very hard and both have sizable cast times. You would definitely want to take any easy opportunity to drop Night Fall and Gravedigger, though. Both of those would pretty much always be a DPS increase. Don’t drop shroud > 50% (target) though, as wasting a GD too soon will hurt your DPS, and you can’t re-enter shroud right away.

Zenith.7301:

Reaper Shroud is weak and a damage loss in PvE. You use it purely to absorb damage if you totally need to and can’t evade the damage any other way.

Otherwise you camp greatsword all day in a group setting.

I’m not so sure of that, honestly, with Onslaught+Dhuumfire, even on a zerker build. I believe Dhuumfire provides a means of boosting DPS above 50% iirc. It also ensures you are much less likely to misalign your cooldowns and wasting time not using Gravedigger below 50%.

With a SRS Reaper build I think it’s passable to run Flame Legion as a Rune set boosting Dhuumfire damage by 30% and giving a 7% damage boost instead of 5% from strength. Given a good team set up in raids, this would likely provide more overall DPS and is less subject to DPS drops that come with Runes of Scholar.

ronpierce.2760:

Jerus.4350:

ronpierce.2760:

Jerus.4350:

ronpierce.2760:

rivurivurivurivu.3041:

Sigmoid.7082:

Gravedigger can be very good but as the same problem of attack speed, the Dagger AA can deal exactly the same amount of damage, expecially if you use the vampiric aura (that’s sad).

• Dagger auto 2.1s total time cast time. 2.8 total coeff. 1.333s coeff a second.
• Gs auto 3s total cast time. 3.6 total coeff. 1.2 coeffs a second. ( this doesnt count putting grave digger whenever you can for a dps increase. )
• Grave Digger spam 1.8s cast time. 3 coeff. 1.66667 coeffs a second.

dagger auto cant make up for 0.3 coeff especially since thats 0.3 is effectively 0.69 because of crits, which siphons cant do.

TL;DR Gs is good.

so gs is better when spamming grave digger, is that what you mean ?
so the best dps will be dagger AA to 50% and then switch to gs and spam grave digger right?

I’m not sure spam is the best word, and it depends on traits. I think zerker dhuumfire autos > dagger. I suspect it will be something like Focus 4, dagger auto to build LF. Swap to GS and enter RS, RS to auto. Below 50% you will want to drop Nightfall (with its 1/4 cast and 3.5 damage) then spam grave digger between night falls.

May omit the RS phase/part in certain builds and under 3 targets.

Wouldn’t you want to faceroll…err I mean use your GS skills before jumping into RS?

Also what about Death’s Charge, worth it for DPS?

Ah yeah, I had thought that earlier, forgot to say it in the above detail. That’s correct, you’d likely drop Night fall -> GD -> RS.

And I don’t know atm about deaths charge. I kind of feel like it would be a dps loss…

Edit: Its hard to brain think the dps with Dhuumfire. It might be worth using. The animation fix on Death’s charge will also change things a bit.

And work in Death Spiral and Grasping Darkness if you want lifeforce at least, not sure how they work out damage wise.

Ideally, dagger+Focus would likely get you up to speed on Life Force. If you’re starting at 0 (Which you likely won’t often since much of fights will be spent out of Shroud spamming GS abilities), you might use a Death Spiral for early Vuln/LF, but I don’t think it would particularly boost your DPS. Neither skill hits very hard and both have sizable cast times. You would definitely want to take any easy opportunity to drop Night Fall and Gravedigger, though. Both of those would pretty much always be a DPS increase. Don’t drop shroud > 50% (target) though, as wasting a GD too soon will hurt your DPS, and you can’t re-enter shroud right away.

Of course, but on a related note, does anyone happen to have the actual cast times (with aftercasts) for the new skills. I mean Grasping Darkness doesn’t look bad if you don’t account for aftercast but with how all these skills feel there’s sure to be a decent sized one.

Anyways, a bit disappointed that RS isn’t performing as well as it looks (that scythe is awesome!).

Yeah, I think many of us wanted to see more damage on RS 1, 4 and 5. It’s not looking good though at this point, I doubt we’ll see it get boosted at this point. But never lose hope, I guess. It would be nice, as I’ve always felt if you spent the time to build LF it should most certainly pay off at least a little bit over standard weapons.

ronpierce.2760:

Yeah, I think many of us wanted to see more damage on RS 1, 4 and 5. It’s not looking good though at this point, I doubt we’ll see it get boosted at this point. But never lose hope, I guess. It would be nice, as I’ve always felt if you spent the time to build LF it should most certainly pay off at least a little bit over standard weapons.

The thing is, much like how I personally despise camping dagger / GS for highest damage, others might dislike the idea of having to be in RS. A single optional trait that directly boosted shroud skill strength (perhaps in the SR line, where it would best fit) would remedy this, though.

RS auto does need to be weaker than dagger simply because it can be traited to generate might and vuln. And its in a damage soaking form. So i think its fine as it is. A small buff would be really nice. Although im generally in favour of reapers onslaught recieving the buff and life force generation on rs auto increasing. Would rather those than flat damage buffs.

But the other RS skills can definitely recieve some damage buffs. And they do need them. In particular RS 5 needs to compare properly to gravedigger. And RS 4 needs to actually do damage worth the channel time.

Steelstickfig.9146:

ronpierce.2760:

Yeah, I think many of us wanted to see more damage on RS 1, 4 and 5. It’s not looking good though at this point, I doubt we’ll see it get boosted at this point. But never lose hope, I guess. It would be nice, as I’ve always felt if you spent the time to build LF it should most certainly pay off at least a little bit over standard weapons.

The thing is, much like how I personally despise camping dagger / GS for highest damage, others might dislike the idea of having to be in RS. A single optional trait that directly boosted shroud skill strength (perhaps in the SR line, where it would best fit) would remedy this, though.

Dhuumfire is almost this exactly if it was just a smidge stronger and affected RS 4 (maybe even without, I haven’t bothered doing the math behind RS4 over a fire field), it does give some incentive to use RS, it’s just not enough atm. But even still, it should at least be on par or the Burst skills (4/5) should be worth using. I feel if you’re at a point where the class just neglects it’s mechanic all together it’s a pretty flawed design. I’d be more in support of boosting 4/5 than #1, and giving Dhuumfire a tiny nudge for other shroud skills, in which case you might actually achieve some differentiation between a ‘shroud-dps’ build and a standard weapon build that doesn’t differ too drastically.

Overall, it’s obviously a grey area. There’s only so much that can be done due to PvP as well, so it’s not hard to understand why it’s a hard balance to strike.

I will say, Dhuumfire Shroud builds would definitely be a thing if they added Power/Ferocity/Condition Damage armor stats.

They can get to splitting the kitten thing, I’m tired of mechanics being held back in PvE for the sake of spvp egoes when they lose a duel and go cry up a river about which class is OP.

Guardians have been a backbone of every pvp team since forever and have OP as hell group utility yet little crying has been done about then because they also don’t function as a duelist class that kills you 1v1.

It’s so dumb, spvp isn’t even balanced around team fights but actual whining over 1v1 match ups.

RS gives might and applies vulnerability, so it may be better for smaller encounters.

Kain Francois.4328:

RS gives might and applies vulnerability, so it may be better for smaller encounters.

Especially if you run the dhuumfire variant, I do agree. In dungeons/quick fights/solo, you’ll probably find yourself using RS more often than dagger mixed with a bit of GS. It has its place even right now. I just think 4/5 needs more damage (5 needs to only be two-tiered, this 3 tiered stuff is pointless), and 1 could maybe use a touch more damage, but it’s certainly not a make or break situation. At least we got .2 seconds shaved off the total rotation, so that should be like a 5-8% damage boost overall right there. :P

Power/Condi/Ferocity armor would make RS1 + Dhuumfire the easy choice in a group setting.

spoj.9672:

GS might be better even above 50%. Would have to do coeff calcs for gs rotations without gravedigger spam to confirm though.

I did the math awhile ago. During the first BWE I calculated the tooltip damage for dagger and greatsword to be 447 and 357 respectively. In the previous BWE event thread, they said that the GS auto will be (now was) buffed 20%. This would put the GS auto at about 428 tooltip DPS.

This makes the GS auto do 95.7% of the damage as the dagger auto. The real question is, do the utilities from GS make up for that damage loss and off-hand skills. That I have not checked.

You can treat Gravedigger as sorta a 100b anyways above 50%, so the greatsword should not be evaluated against the dagger only on the basis of an autoattack because the dagger truly has no other short cooldown high damage skills.

And despite the breakbar decreasing our debuffing utility, we still do want to aid in breaking it and so with traits like chilling nova and the built in chill, the greatsword would still be attractive against bosses over dagger since it also helps degen the breakbar for that extra damage while the foe is stunned.

If we sit on dagger above 50% anyways that’s even a worse scenario for our reaper traits, since chilling nova, cold shoulder, and Soul Eater/Deathly Chill would see little benefit on a dagger.

Yeah gravedigger cooldown + nightfall makes it pretty likely that greatsword could pull ahead. The question is whether camping either set or swapping between them is best.

Flame legion runes and the right , though expensive,food you can get 7 stacks of burn from dhuumfire without losing much.

This equates to about 2.5k burns which isn’t bad. Considering some mobs will have greater toughness, especially in the case of higher level fractals where we know their stats including toughness scale up, this means you can end up doing more damage with it.

Essentially the more armour and protection a monster has the better RS auto attack will be against it opposed to doing anything else since you can take dhuumfire with it.

Very encounter reliant though.

In a perfect situation where you have 25might, fury, and the target has 25 vuln dagger is better than RS AA otherwise RS AA gives way too many benefits to be overshadowed by dagger AA.

Vizardlorde.8243:

In a perfect situation where you have 25might, fury, and the target has 25 vuln dagger is better than RS AA otherwise RS AA gives way too many benefits to be overshadowed by dagger AA.

This only holds true on targets without very high armour. The more they have the better RS auto attack can become because of dhuumfire. Also as long as their are three targets RS auto wins out regardless. Of situation.

Honestly, It’s really all up in the air. I was curious about the Flame Legion runes myself, I plan to run some tests in the next beta with them. We just need more testing at this point. You also can’t forget in an organized group you have Quickness which also boosts burning stacks for a short period.

We also have to take into consideration that raid content might be different then what we’re use to. For all we know it could completely shake or destroy the meta, in which case being in shroud to have that second healthbar to cover you could mean a lot more.

I don’t know why people are comparing RS to dagger AA when greatsword will be our highest DPS weapon and cleaves just as well as RS.

Zenith.7301:

I don’t know why people are comparing RS to dagger AA when greatsword will be our highest DPS weapon and cleaves just as well as RS.

That’s all speculation at this point, as mentioned that could all be meaningless If damage isn’t as important in the new content. We’re basing opinions on dated content when we all know raids will be the only thing that will most likely matter when it comes to maximizing performance.

Truefrost.6815:

Zenith.7301:

I don’t know why people are comparing RS to dagger AA when greatsword will be our highest DPS weapon and cleaves just as well as RS.

That’s all speculation at this point, as mentioned that could all be meaningless If damage isn’t as important in the new content. We’re basing opinions on dated content when we all know raids will be the only thing that will most likely matter when it comes to maximizing performance.

I’m going to reserve these kinds of comments for posterity. Every single MMO out there has maximized DPS in raids, even those that require tank/healers thanks to the trinity, yet somehow people are floating this magical idea that damage won’t be the most effective way to deplete an HP bar and that we’ll see the advent of PVT’s thanks to raids.

I mean, people said the same of high level fractals when they came out, because mobs can virtually two shot you with mere autoattacks, yet lo and behold we still take builds centered on damage.

While it is obvious that maximising dps is going to be key in most situation, I think the point is that we don’t know the constraints that we will need to maximise dps under. Yes, in a situation where other party members are going to be applying buffs and debuffs greatsword will do more damage then reapers shroud, but when they are not available traited reapers shroud pulls ahead. There could also be factors in a fight that force classes away from some of their more damaging trait lines/choices (although I’m not willing to speculate on what those may be), which narrows the gap between what necromancer and other classes can do since we don’t have to make that trade off for the most part. We have a lack of information currently.

Zenith.7301:

Truefrost.6815:

Zenith.7301:

I don’t know why people are comparing RS to dagger AA when greatsword will be our highest DPS weapon and cleaves just as well as RS.

That’s all speculation at this point, as mentioned that could all be meaningless If damage isn’t as important in the new content. We’re basing opinions on dated content when we all know raids will be the only thing that will most likely matter when it comes to maximizing performance.

I’m going to reserve these kinds of comments for posterity. Every single MMO out there has maximized DPS in raids, even those that require tank/healers thanks to the trinity, yet somehow people are floating this magical idea that damage won’t be the most effective way to deplete an HP bar and that we’ll see the advent of PVT’s thanks to raids.

I mean, people said the same of high level fractals when they came out, because mobs can virtually two shot you with mere autoattacks, yet lo and behold we still take builds centered on damage.

High fractals aren’t 10-man raids. They were also designed by the wonderful dungeon design team that no longer makes dungeons, for good reasons. Where as raids have a new raid desginer, meaning COMPLETELY different ideas. What I’m saying is what If necros fall into a different role then dps, anything is possible because we don’t know the extent of what raids will be like.

During the raid blog they mentioned wanting the old support/control/dps roles back. For all we know they could design for that. My ultimate point is, we don’t know what to expect until we actually play it or get to see it firsthand.

You are correct, every MMO has the same goal, to sink the bosses health to zero. But not everyone is designed to do that in the raid.

Necro wouldn’t be the best tank, that honor goes to bunker guardian. It also wouldn’t be support; ele, engineer, guardian, warrior, and mesmer all support better.

So we’re left with DPS and CC. The engineer and guardian are miles ahead in CC potential.

You are left with DPS as a necromancer.

Zenith.7301:

Necro wouldn’t be the best tank, that honor goes to bunker guardian. It also wouldn’t be support; ele, engineer, guardian, warrior, and mesmer all support better.

So we’re left with DPS and CC. The engineer and guardian are miles ahead in CC potential.

You are left with DPS as a necromancer.

Let me try this again. My. Point. Is. We need to see, we still have another beta and NO one has seen raids, not to mention who knows what will change when HoT goes live. Anything is possible, stop being so negative.

Truefrost.6815:

Zenith.7301:

Necro wouldn’t be the best tank, that honor goes to bunker guardian. It also wouldn’t be support; ele, engineer, guardian, warrior, and mesmer all support better.

So we’re left with DPS and CC. The engineer and guardian are miles ahead in CC potential.

You are left with DPS as a necromancer.

Let me try this again. My. Point. Is. We need to see, we still have another beta and NO one has seen raids, not to mention who knows what will change when HoT goes live. Anything is possible, stop being so negative.

I’m asking you, point blank, what do we do better than any other class besides DPS.

And you have given me not a single answer besides “we don’t know what raids are like, let’s wait and see!”

“Let’s wait and see!” is what some of you said in closed beta after they nerfed the necromancer to hell. And we waited, and we saw; it wasn’t pretty and hasn’t been all these years.

Don’t fool yourself, the beta before any game/expansion release is the only time we have to complain for class changes to be made. After a game/xpac goes live, we’re back to 6 month minimum balance patch cycles.

Zenith.7301:

Truefrost.6815:

Zenith.7301:

Necro wouldn’t be the best tank, that honor goes to bunker guardian. It also wouldn’t be support; ele, engineer, guardian, warrior, and mesmer all support better.

So we’re left with DPS and CC. The engineer and guardian are miles ahead in CC potential.

You are left with DPS as a necromancer.

Let me try this again. My. Point. Is. We need to see, we still have another beta and NO one has seen raids, not to mention who knows what will change when HoT goes live. Anything is possible, stop being so negative.

I’m asking you, point blank, what do we do better than any other class besides DPS.

And you have given me not a single answer besides “we don’t know what raids are like, let’s wait and see!”

“Let’s wait and see!” is what some of you said in closed beta after they nerfed the necromancer to hell. And we waited, and we saw; it wasn’t pretty and hasn’t been all these years.

Don’t fool yourself, the beta before any game/expansion release is the only time we have to complain for class changes to be made. After a game/xpac goes live, we’re back to 6 month minimum balance patch cycles.

We do boon removal the best. But what you are saying has NOTHING to do with the point of my post. Which seems to have escaped you. But I’m done since you obviously have something to prove which has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

I think someone already established in either this thread or another that Mesmers are quite a bit better at consistent boon removal than Necromancers. So I’m not sure if that really applies.

Yup, what he said is not even true. A sword mesmer removes boons just as well, and with null field+idisenchanter it’s really no contest.

If we’re talking about gimmick boon removal we can even add arcane thievery and shattered concentration for boon removal on shatter.

However let’s get back to the meta mesmer build. All he needs is to switch in null field/idisenchanter on one utility just like we’d slot corrupt boon, and they’d outdo the necro handily.