(edited by Pendragon.8735)
lifeforce mechanics
Yeh, I wondered this too… Guess we find out tomorrow.
It is hard to say if they nerf’d LifeForce, because we never saw a real numbers there.
I doubt they’d be foolish enough to muck with the numbers right now but they’ve surprised me before so who knows.
It is hard to say if they nerf’d LifeForce, because we never saw a real numbers there.
It’s not that difficult to calculate though. We can’t see our Lifeforce number right now but we can see a percentage, we can see our real health, and we can see how much damage is taken to us in Death Shroud via the combat log.
I just stripped all my traits including in Soul Reaping, and did another test against Svanir in the mists. He delivered 4 ‘mauls’ to me, hitting for 11,000 damage taken entirely in Death Shroud. I have 42% of my LF left after that was dealt, while my out of DS healthpool is only 18.5k.
Based on a 60% number for DS my LF should be zero or next to it after that barrage. Instead 11k damage comes out to 59% of my actual health pool, thereby fitting practically perfectly with the idea that current DS is equal to 100% normal health.
I’m going to retest all this stuff tomorrow and the percentages better not change, as in damage we can eat, but I don’t see how it possibly won’t if the video is true. Its not like we gain toughness in DS, as the hits we take do not decrease in the combat log, nor does our base stats change in our panel when we enter it.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Are you taking Soul Reaping into account?
I think our class might be hit too hard tomorrow if this is a real nerf, considering all the group-wide condition cleansing they’re adding.
A hypothesis i have is that DS itself has some weird interaction with Armor just how it has with HP, since before the first “fix”/change it if you had a defensive armor, you would actually take more damage than normally, but if you had a full glass cannon, you took less damage, then it was fixed, but now it could be that while the damage delt is the same, but it has a internal multiplier that reduces it when its transitioned into life force, but whats funny its actually the funny thing is that (when you lets say hit a fish head in sparkfly, it barely reduces your DS to 40% in soldier while almost killing you/you fall to 2k~ hp).
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
It would be really weird if we can finally see the life force number but the numbers for damage taken are still completely off, assuming that is the cause of the discrepancy.
Are you taking Soul Reaping into account?
I’ve tested with and without and it always comes out looking like at least 100% health in DS, and more if you have Soul Reaping points.
Like I said in the first post I took an 8k hit in DS and only lost about 25% of my DS health. That was with 20 points in Soul Reaping. Considering I only had 25k normal health it seems I had about 30k DS health. If tomorrow I now only have 18k (60% + 20% SR) it will be a massive tanking nerf, espeically for eating quick burst with no degen, like a stunlock warrior jumping you or such.
I’ve tested it too, monster damage as well as fall damage and all my tests have turned out to show DS as 100% of my HP.
Sigil of Paralysis is going to be a huge nerf to stunlocking warriors, at least.
I agree this is going to be a massive, unnecessary nerf if it goes live. Our class is fine as far as survivability goes. We’re finally in a spot where we can cope with our lack of mobility while still remaining a viable focus target.
If anything needs to be nerfed, it’s our damage. That’s being done through more group-wide condition cleansing. Nothing else is really necessary.
It isn’t a nerf, its simply some weird interaction. A dev posted here fairly quickly after DS was finally bug-fixed to be the proper amount of eHP to direct damage.
I imagine Andele is right and there is just a really weird armor interaction here; they wouldn’t nerf DS by about half.
It isn’t a nerf, its simply some weird interaction. A dev posted here fairly quickly after DS was finally bug-fixed to be the proper amount of eHP to direct damage.
I imagine Andele is right and there is just a really weird armor interaction here; they wouldn’t nerf DS by about half.
That would defeat the purpose of the change to display our LF health because the number would be meaningless. If my combat log says I took 8000 damage but I have only lost 4000 DS health post-patch on the display, what good is it? Might as well keep it a percentage.
We aren’t fully sure of all the circumstances though, all we know is that we feel like our test results show higher than 60%, yet a dev told us specifically that the number coded was 60%, and now we saw it in game.
At least now that we see it we have a way to gauge if its working properly or not for sure.
yet a dev told us specifically .
The Devs literally just called Bloodthirst “Bloodlust”. I’m not sure how close to law their word actually is, regardless of whether it is their game or not.
yet a dev told us specifically .
The Devs literally just called Bloodthirst “Bloodlust”. I’m not sure how close to law their word actually is, regardless of whether it is their game or not.
To be fair i call it bloodlust too, but yeah devs dont have a good track record of being honest, but they usually fix stuff within 2-4 months of it getting out of hand on the forums.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
To be fair i call it bloodlust too, but yeah devs dont have a good track record of being honest, but they usually fix stuff within 2-4 months of it getting out of hand on the forums.
You’re a player that does not have thousands of players looking to them for the correct information. I would take most of what they say with a grain of, if not more, salt at this point.
they said this are not all the tweaks for necro. more coming in note patch…
Sigil of Paralysis is going to be a huge nerf to stunlocking warriors, at least.
I agree this is going to be a massive, unnecessary nerf if it goes live. Our class is fine as far as survivability goes. We’re finally in a spot where we can cope with our lack of mobility while still remaining a viable focus target.
If anything needs to be nerfed, it’s our damage. That’s being done through more group-wide condition cleansing. Nothing else is really necessary.
Trust me, you won’t get any condition to stick in wvw vs any guildgroup.
I say scale up our direct damage overall of give us stealth and leaps/blastfinishers. just to even the playingfield ^^
54 infractions and counting because a moderator doesn’t understand a joke when he/she sees it.
E.A.D.
E.A.D.
I’ve tested life force as well with damage from attacks, conditions or falling damage. And I even got close to 140% without any points Soul Reaping. The armor value has nothing to do with it.
And that can mean 3 things:
- The displayed lf in the video is correct and we’re looking at a nerf that will take almost 30% of our current hp away.
- The displayed lf in the video is too low and we’re going to see a tooltip fix in the future.
- The displayed lf and the value calculated by the players is correct, that would mean that there is a bug that reduces all dmg taken in DS by 50%, which effectively means double the value.
I’ve tested life force as well with damage from attacks, conditions or falling damage. And I even got close to 140% without any points Soul Reaping. The armor value has nothing to do with it.
And that can mean 3 things:
- The displayed lf in the video is correct and we’re looking at a nerf that will take almost 30% of our current hp away.
- The displayed lf in the video is too low and we’re going to see a tooltip fix in the future.
- The displayed lf and the value calculated by the players is correct, that would mean that there is a bug that reduces all dmg taken in DS by 50%, which effectively means double the value.
Our old test values were 119% of hp.
Remember conditions can proc between on lf degen/kinda be wasted or tick for more % than it actually is dealing and fall damage can change just by a pixel difference.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Life force used to be bugged where necros had far less life force capacity than we were supposed to have. I remember it as 60% less! Is my mind playing tricks on me?
the bug was that in DS necro was without armor now u have armor is ds also
Life force used to be bugged where necros had far less life force capacity than we were supposed to have. I remember it as 60% less! Is my mind playing tricks on me?
Downed hp not life force.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
Yes this will finally put to rest the questions of how life force interacts with direct damage. Since we can see a number (15000 for example), and compare that to the reduction by percentage per second, and add in the mob dealt damage, we can figure out exactly what is happening.
I am excited about that, as I always see strange situations where it absorbs way more than I expect, and other situations where it seems to shear off way too fast.
Just an FYI, they seem to be focusing on the “Buffs” with this video. As a Thief player who has been expecting a Nerf on S/D they didn’t discuss any abilities that they’ve toned down. My Necro is my second main character on this account so that does concern me.
Thief – [BanD]Valnilus
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend
I agree that if 1 DS health doesn’t equate to 1 non-DS health then this change is pointless because you might as well have left a percentage and just shown the number
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Sigil of Paralysis is going to be a huge nerf to stunlocking warriors, at least.
I agree this is going to be a massive, unnecessary nerf if it goes live. Our class is fine as far as survivability goes. We’re finally in a spot where we can cope with our lack of mobility while still remaining a viable focus target.
If anything needs to be nerfed, it’s our damage. That’s being done through more group-wide condition cleansing. Nothing else is really necessary.
What new condi cleansing
Character: Henry rank million/Duke Henry
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Necromancer/Casual Warrior
[Team] Best WvW guild of all time. EASILY.
Post-Patch test, Lifeforce true amount appears unchanged.
As far as I can tell we take half damage in DS. Eat 10,000 damage from mob only about 5k actually lost in DS display. This also applies to conditions.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Post-Patch test, Lifeforce true amount appears unchanged.
As far as I can tell we take half damage in DS or something close that. Eat 10,000 damage from mob only about 5k actually lost in DS display.
Strange. DS doesn’t seem to alter our armor in any way or form…
Thief – [BanD]Valnilus
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend
Necro – [BanD]Nighnus the Black
Yak’s Bend
The displayed lf and the value calculated by the players is correct, that would mean that there is a bug that reduces all dmg taken in DS by 50%, which effectively means double the value.
I just tested for direct, falling and condition damage: every form of dmg is exactly 50% of what you take outside of DS.
Btw the total lf value is 60% of my regular hp (120% actually…).
And I already noticed a nerf to having weapon sets with different vitality stats. If you had 100% before the patch and switched weapons it stayed at 100%. Now you always lose some when you switch to the weapon with less vitality and back.
And I already noticed a nerf to having weapon sets with different vitality stats. If you had 100% before the patch and switched weapons it stayed at 100%. Now you always lose some when you switch to the weapon with less vitality and back.
Actually, that’s been in the game since release. I’ve been running rabid scepter/dagger and a shaman’s staff for ages. I’m quite familiar with how changing vitality affects your life force.
So, what’s the story. The amount of life it shows, is true and were missing ~10k, or the life it shows is wrong and were stronger than it displays?
And I already noticed a nerf to having weapon sets with different vitality stats. If you had 100% before the patch and switched weapons it stayed at 100%. Now you always lose some when you switch to the weapon with less vitality and back.
Actually, that’s been in the game since release. I’ve been running rabid scepter/dagger and a shaman’s staff for ages. I’m quite familiar with how changing vitality affects your life force.
You didn’t properly read my post.
I’ve been using carrion+rampager for a very long time. Before the patch you would lose life force only if the vitality weapon set wasn’t at 100% but still higher than on your non-vitality set. If both sets were at 100% you didn’t lose anything, now you do.
Imo a weird change… why would you “take damage” by swapping weapons anyway?
So, what’s the story. The amount of life it shows, is true and were missing ~10k, or the life it shows is wrong and were stronger than it displays?
Here’s the deal:
For now all you have to do is pretend that whatever number is displayed on your lf bar is actually double.
Since anet devs were so adamant about the lf pool being 60% over the past months while the entire player base proved that it was 120% this entire time, there are 3 options for what’s going to happen in future patches:
1. The devs will fix the bug that causes necros to only take half dmg in DS.
2. The devs will recognize that the current state of defense that the lf pool gives necros is what it should have been all along and fix the tooltip by doubling the value.
3. Nothing.
Post-Patch test, Lifeforce true amount appears unchanged.
As far as I can tell we take half damage in DS or something close that. Eat 10,000 damage from mob only about 5k actually lost in DS display.
Strange. DS doesn’t seem to alter our armor in any way or form…
It has a internal Damage modifier to turn it into the % value of life force.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.
(edited by Andele.1306)
Thematically, its not hard to go with the idea that while you are in a spectral ghostly form you would take less damage. Might even have been their intention – especially as DS was just looked at and a bug fixed in it, not too long ago. But if not, balancing is more important than long dated design ideas. And pretty obvious to see we need every bit of it, as losing half our LF, when already vulnerable to spiking, would neuter us hard.
The way this works now seeing the light of day and explainable though greatly changes the value of Soul Reaping in a positive way. Since the damage being hit in half applies after SR additions, it means your DS pool getting bigger is a lot more valuable than say raw health acquired from the blood line, which now gives far less to DS than it would if indeed the DS number was 100% of our health and mitigated at our armor level.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
And I already noticed a nerf to having weapon sets with different vitality stats. If you had 100% before the patch and switched weapons it stayed at 100%. Now you always lose some when you switch to the weapon with less vitality and back.
Actually, that’s been in the game since release. I’ve been running rabid scepter/dagger and a shaman’s staff for ages. I’m quite familiar with how changing vitality affects your life force.
You didn’t properly read my post.
I’ve been using carrion+rampager for a very long time. Before the patch you would lose life force only if the vitality weapon set wasn’t at 100% but still higher than on your non-vitality set. If both sets were at 100% you didn’t lose anything, now you do.
Imo a weird change… why would you “take damage” by swapping weapons anyway?
And I’m telling you that you are wrong. When I was at 100% on my staff, swapped to scepter/dagger, and swapped back, I was no longer at 100%, despite not zoning, entering death shroud, or doing anything that would cause me to lose life force. If I was at 100% on scepter/dagger and swapped to Staff, I was no longer at 100%.
The reason why is because the UI and skills all referenced a % of our max life force, the actual value was a number (which we can finally see).
Assuming X<Y:
1. Vitality set max life force = Y
2. current life force = Y/Y
3. swap to non-vitality set, max life force is X
4. current life force = Y/X. Game sets it to X/X so that maximum is observed.
5. Swap back to Vitality set, max life force is Y.
6. Life Force is now X/Y.
Although we can’t go back to the pre-patch state, I can guarantee you this is exactly how it worked.
Well, Im glad they fixed up the confusing mess that is life force to health conversion, by adding a number that doesn’t line up…
Well, Im glad they fixed up the confusing mess that is life force to health conversion, by adding a number that doesn’t line up…
My thoughts exactly lol
@Drarnor:
Strange. I believe you, but in my case I swear it was different.
One solution to this might be the part in the patchnotes that says “Previously, about 10% of the bar was hidden”. Maybe it has to do with the fact that I used carrion with vitality as a minor stat and you used shaman with vit as main. So maybe the “hidden” value was cut off on my carrion set too but I couldn’t see it because it still said 100%.
Since the damage being hit in half applies after SR additions, it means your DS pool getting bigger is a lot more valuable than say raw health acquired from the blood line, which now gives far less to DS than it would if indeed the DS number was 100% of our health and mitigated at our armor level.
It’s not just that. Life force can be generated a lot quicker, which makes it even more valuable than just the extra % it has on our regular hp.
In a way the buff to the lf pool indirectly improved our regular healing as well because it allowed us to stay in DS longer to protect our hp.
In a way the buff to the lf pool indirectly improved our regular healing as well because it allowed us to stay in DS longer to protect our hp.
Yeah but that is still a very suboptimal way to use DS. Because unless in Power or max SR build, your DPS drops big after you blow fear and torment and the degen is an absolute waste to let tick away compared up against the burst defense you can have by saving the pool for damage spikes. Other condi builds can especially melt DS in no time, half damage or not, if you don’t jump out and clear them.
(edited by Pendragon.8735)
Correct, but I wasn’t talking about letting it tick away.
What you describe was actually even more true before the lf pool was increased. You sometimes had to save up as much lf as possible to eventually use it for dmg spikes, even if that meant taking more damage to your regular hp. Today you don’t have to be as economical about it from an offensive pov, but you can shift a lot of it in favor of your defense.
You’re a player that does not have thousands of players looking to them for the correct information. I would take most of what they say with a grain of, if not more, salt at this point.
I too forget that all devs are infallible, and couldn’t possibly make a small mistake doing an unscripted short show.
I mean it wasn’t even like they called it something ridiculous, its Blood thirst to Blood lust, even the parts that are different are similar.
You’re a player that does not have thousands of players looking to them for the correct information. I would take most of what they say with a grain of, if not more, salt at this point.
I too forget that all devs are infallible, and couldn’t possibly make a small mistake doing an unscripted short show.
I mean it wasn’t even like they called it something ridiculous, its Blood thirst to Blood lust, even the parts that are different are similar.
Its not like they denied the following at one point in the past: Wurm being a shadowstep not a teleport, DS was taking more damage than normal hp in defensive gear, DS has a cooldown on right side bar if you get kicked out of it, weapon sigils applied to kits/effects (like offhands not working in ds for a month, even if you should only be in ds using staff), terror not dealing damage on fear immune targets, CB failing over half the time, Plague Signet working correctly and not copying conditions AND downed hp being 30% of the intended value.
Lets not even mention the amount of things we needed to point out to get a reply: oh thats intended/we wont change it back despite not saying anything on patch notes.
When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.