Guild Wars 2

Hello!

I do a lot of sPvP, and have a couple of questions about how you guys deal with a certain profession.

I use this Perma-Chill Dagger/Focus & Staff build.
2 Runes of Svanir, 2 Runes of Ice, 2 Runes of Sanctuary

I also sometimes use this Condition Scepter/Dagger and Staff build.
6 Runes of Undead

I’m curious as to how I can better defend myself against Thieves that spam either pistol whip or other variations (backstab, heartseeker, steal/fear). Both versions, if played skillfully, I have found nearly impossible to kill. I actually fought a guy who spammed pistol whip and killed me (through half DS). I switch to stunbreakers when I anticipate bursty players (then drop a staff #5), but it seems to not matter if they catch me.

Normally, I can either bleed them out or drop a Well of Darkness on their face, but I have found myself unable to use these to great affect against a couple of good players even if they stand in it the entire duration. I find that Well of Darkness doesn’t nearly help to stop the burst they deal, even with 2800 toughness or 30,000 HP.

I’m not sure what more I can do, or how to better my builds without losing some of the nice synergy. I hope to gain some insight!

Also, what are some interesting and successful builds you have tried? I’m eager to experiment, however, I have not had good experiences with most power builds (but am eager to try).

Thanks guys.

I had the same issue with thieves, mainly because of stealth/heartseeker spamming. For me, I found a way to counter that using staff + greater marks, while it could be tricky against ranged attacks(though it`s rarely a problem since I don`t mind having a gap between enemies), it proved very useful to put couple of marks with me in the center to prevent them from getting close in stealth or constantly backstabbing/heartseeking.
Countering fear is another tricky topic, when I had sigil of plague, I didn`t have muck problems with being feared+backstabbed, now when I stopped using it, it became quite a problem, the only workaround for now is to get into DS. I also thought about getting shrouded removal only for this purpose, but didn`t tested and a bit skeptical whether fear will be removed in the first place, or it will remove some minor bleed and leave me in fear.

Thanks for the reply!

I definitely do use my marks when a Thief stealths (either in their stealth field, or around me). The problem is, they don’t do much even if I am able to time my DS fear to interrupt their rotation.

I’ll admit – the fear isn’t as devastating as their damage combo. It really shocks me how a Thief can spam pistol whip through a Well of Darkness and kill me, even with 30k HP lol. Normally, WoD helps stop this (and it really helps against warriors), but maybe I’m missing something on how to better survive against super glassy and talented Thieves.

thiefs are hard for most necromancers espcially when they get the jump on you and you ate the big burst backstab cnd mug combo or half the pistol whip after that youre facing a hard battle imo.. greater mark helps but a lot of it is just pure reflex based. create distance fear them off pre emptive dodge if you know their comming.. further if one stays in combat and dont high tail it out of there the moment he start to loose hold on to dear life.

I have this problem as well. That .5 second stun at the beginning of pistol whip is just brutal, too. I’ve tried to counter with the blind with Dagger 4 or the daze from Warhorn 4, but more often than not, it just gets interrupted by the next incoming pistol whip.

A few nights ago, I was in a game with this guy running Haste, Devourer Venom, and Pistol Whip. He’d stealth, apply the venom, Haste, and then pistol whip 3 times for 26k+ damage in about a second. Couldn’t dodge, and stun breaks wouldn’t cure the immobilize. Completely ridiculous.

Just last night, I ran into a thief who had a perma-stealth build. I didn’t even know it was possible, honestly. It was nuts. He didn’t do much damage, but he was literally always in stealth. He’d stealth, come out for an attack or two, and then vanish again. I tried direct damage and stacking conditions on him, but he’d just stealth, and when he reappeared, the conditions would be removed and he’d regained most of his health. We fought for about 3 minutes before his two warrior buddies showed up and finished me off. I’d say he was in stealth about 90% of that time.

TL;DR: Whining about how thieves are OP. Nerf plz.

Anyway, here is my sPvP build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fQAQRBIhtG1IjW6e2mzG/miYSB38GUh3HVAZUPc36QHA;T4Ag1CtoyxkjIHbOuck5sEZkxJjtIvMmZA

I wanted to go for a hybrid might stacking build that spends a lot of time in Death Shroud. I don’t use staff ‘cause it doesn’t gel with my Necro playstyle, though I’m starting to think maybe I should anyway. This build handles a majority of threats with ease, though Hammer Warriors, Hammer of Wisdom Guardians, and the aforementioned Pistol Whip Thieves give it a lot of trouble. Please, please critique.

Honestly if you want to know how to more easily beat a thief then just go play one for a couple days. You’ll quickly get a feel for what their weaknesses are and what you can do within your build to exploit those weaknesses.

Also, Well of Darkness won’t do much for you against fast-attack classes. it only applies a blind every sec and they’ll hit you faster/more frequently than that. The blind only lasts for a single attack as well. So if someone pops haste you might avoid 1 out of every 3. As it just so happens though, burst classes are squishy, so if you drop Well of Corruption + Well of Suffering + Chillbains and combo them with Putrid Mark, you’ll likely kill them in a matter of moments. If you’re caught on the run then just never stop moving and keep dragging them through conditions before turning and bursting them down.

@Box of Ants
Thanks for the build!
I’ll give it a try and let you know how it goes. My main issue with dagger (and it seems many other share this issue) is how dangerous it can be. I agree that, with well-timed dodges, Warriors become a non-issue. It’s really Thieves that pose the largest threat most of the time.

@hackks
Very good advice, and something I have done briefly. I understand how fragile Thieves are, and also understand how they can blow all of their initiative easily. As Box of Ants has mentioned, there are combos that are nearly unavoidable. If you do manage to DS-Fear, back off and plant a staff#5 and drop a well, they tend to just ignore it.

With conditions against a pistol whip build, building them up to be threatening takes much longer than the time it takes them to lock you down. With chill/dagger build, they can back off and use a Shortbow until you get to 75/80% and rush in to try and take you out. I played against this kind of Thief and was unable to do much.

I will experiment with how I approach them and practice at reading which cooldowns they use. I really have trouble with them shooting from range as I try to slow them/apply bleeds, then start the CnD or pistol whip routine, then I DS fear. By this time, in either spec, I have about 50% health. I attempt to heal, then they either use basilisk venom/steal-fear and heartseeker, or pistol whip until I die xD

EDIT: To be clear, the issue is not “Can I reasonably kill them,” it’s more along the lines of “How can I prevent my death within 5 seconds.” I know I must do my best to trip them up and make them waste initiative and cooldowns, but I only have so many things to keep them occupied or repel them.

Zeke Minus.5720:

@hackks
Very good advice, and something I have done briefly. I understand how fragile Thieves are, and also understand how they can blow all of their initiative easily. As Box of Ants has mentioned, there are combos that are nearly unavoidable. If you do manage to DS-Fear, back off and plant a staff#5 and drop a well, they tend to just ignore it.

With conditions against a pistol whip build, building them up to be threatening takes much longer than the time it takes them to lock you down. With chill/dagger build, they can back off and use a Shortbow until you get to 75/80% and rush in to try and take you out. I played against this kind of Thief and was unable to do much.

I will experiment with how I approach them and practice at reading which cooldowns they use. I really have trouble with them shooting from range as I try to slow them/apply bleeds, then start the CnD or pistol whip routine, then I DS fear. By this time, in either spec, I have about 50% health. I attempt to heal, then they either use basilisk venom/steal-fear and heartseeker, or pistol whip until I die xD

EDIT: To be clear, the issue is not “Can I reasonably kill them,” it’s more along the lines of “How can I prevent my death within 5 seconds.” I know I must do my best to trip them up and make them waste initiative and cooldowns, but I only have so many things to keep them occupied or repel them.

Preventing your death in 5 sec really comes down to whether or not you have LF built up or not. It’s a question of, can I absorb this burst and negate all the initiative they just spent or not? If no, then it’s time to run and start dropping marks and kiting – a moving target is actually a big pain in the kitten for Theives. If yes, then it’s time to make life hard for them. Your Fears need to be used sparingly though for when they become aggressive, not sequentially just to move them a bit further away and buy you one more second before they turn and unload a series of heartseekers on you.

There’s a lot of ways the fight can go honestly. Being familiar with thier skills/builds/mechanics is the biggest help you’ll get in fighting thieves. understanding what’s coming when they move in, or what they’re doing if they’re staying back with short bow, or even what they’re doing while they’re in stealth, waiting to reset the fight. All of it requires a different response and is gauged differently based on your build and play style.

Hey Zeke,
I have a few things you might like to try on your Permachill build. I run a similar spec and I’ll throw you my skills to see what you think.
First, the Trait that allows health siphon on crit… your crit is only 4%. Is there a better one you can use? Personally I go into Tough for the increased marks and staff skill CD reduction. Since i switch weapons for chill everytime the CD is up I want my marks up and ready.
That being said, I think sigil of hydromancy on both main hands is a better choice because it garrentees you a chill. That 30% chance on crit is off of a 4% crit chance. So thats 1/3 after 1/25 is applied. Too low.
I like the chill pull skill alot, I was running it but i couldnt get the hang of it. Im going to go back and try it out. Thanks for that one.
Your elite makes youy a huge target in Spvp. I know it depends on playstyle, but I switch between Golem for knockdown and cripple or Plague form for 20sec spamming blind. The latter really helps with nodeholding.
I am trying to find my niche with spectral walk or flesh wurm. I love the teleport feature both have. One gives you a minion, another gives speed and LF. What do you think?

@hackks
I agree, fights are completely dependant on the build chosen to use, and I can’t plan for everything in one build. I will spread my fears out a bit more and see how that works. I’m still trying out new ways to approach these kinds of encounters, and the insight really helps.

@Embershard
Thanks for the advice!

I’m not sure why the build editor doesn’t show the correct percentage of crit that I have, but I normally hover around 35 to 40%. That said, I will definitely try the mark/hydromancy combo and see how it works. I also tend to stick with the Golem unless I know I can get away with the Lich form.

I have begun to try to branch out and see how far I can push dagger with chill, and find that this build also works quite well.
The build link is showing XI for the final Soul Reaping trait, but it’s suppose to be XII.

With this new build, I aim to do a couple of things:

• Become more survivable. A large DS pool helps to absorb damage when I need to.
• Cleanse conditions and gain perma-fury to help stay alive as well as build more life force through crits via the Curses trait.
• Always-accessable DS. So far, this has made a huge difference.

I have found this build to give me as much life force as I could possibly ever want. It’s pretty awesome. Conditions are also much, much easier to deal with, too. It has definitely helped against Thieves and other bursty classes.

That looks promising, ill deff give this a go and see how it works. Hows the dmg on this since you are dropping 200 power?

I’d ditch the II trait in Soul Reaping since it has no effect on the actual cost of the skills. I prefer either the 15% increased speed or the CD reduction. Since you’ve taken CD reduction for DS I’d recommend the DS skill CD reduction.

Spectral CD reduction is getting minimal use as well since you’re only using the Grasp which is the shortest of all the Spectral CDs. You might try Soul Marks for added LF on marks, or the increase in Fear duration.

You could then take 10 points out of curses and put them back into Spite for the Spiteful Marks, or go with add another chill with Chill of Death. You could also move them into Death magic for the CD reduction on Staff skills. The 33% chance on crit to generate 1% LF is barely noticeable and not worth the trait IMO.

Just my thoughts after giving it a quick glance.

It’s a bit slower, definitely, but it feels as if Necro isn’t build for glass cannon anyway. There’s just too many things that help in other ways. It feels that the longer the fight goes, the higher the chances I have of winning it as long as I don’t get zerged, lol.

With this build, you can definitely plan to absorb most, if not all, of the burst you’re expecting. With chill, this means they will have to wait a good while if the ability had a longer cooldown.

hackks.3687:

I’d ditch the II trait in Soul Reaping since it has no effect on the actual cost of the skills. I prefer either the 15% increased speed or the CD reduction. Since you’ve taken CD reduction for DS I’d recommend the DS skill CD reduction.

Spectral CD reduction is getting minimal use as well since you’re only using the Grasp which is the shortest of all the Spectral CDs. You might try Soul Marks for added LF on marks, or the increase in Fear duration.

You could then take 10 points out of curses and put them back into Spite for the Spiteful Marks, or go with add another chill with Chill of Death. You could also move them into Death magic for the CD reduction on Staff skills. The 33% chance on crit to generate 1% LF is barely noticeable and not worth the trait IMO.

Just my thoughts after giving it a quick glance.

I will move traits around and see how things sit.

The only reason I had chosen the Spectral cooldown over DS cooldown is because it gives life force/chill and pulls. The control it can give if timed correctly is wonderful, especially for interrupting a heal or catching someone. DS#2 is already a short-ish cooldown ability, but he prospect of a shorter cooldown fear seems like it would be nice.

The thought behind Soul Reaping II is that I notice I “bleed out” of DS quite quickly. It mostly helps when needing to dip into DS to take damage (not using skills, if they’re on cooldown or I’m knocked down). The life force bleed minimization also helps preserve life force, if only by a bit.

DS, for this build, is basically being used as a boon/purge mechanic and utility, with the intent of using the life force pool to absorb damage. I never have issues catching anyone since I have a ton of chill and other tricks.

I will see how Soulful Marks works out. I never actually thought about it, but it could work out better than the Soul Reaping II. I’d then want to take Greater Marks, but I suppose that’s optional. I’ve used it so long in other builds that when I don’t have it, the marks feel so tiny, lol.

Is something like this what you had in mind?

Thanks for the feedback.

yep, that’s exactly what I had in mind. Soul Reaping III and XII just go nicely together, though if you’re looking to get in and out of DS quite a bit to absorb pressure you might look at Spite V, which works nice for absorbing dmg and giving some of it back. Spite X would work nice for you chill build as well. Honestly you have lots of options there but the build is starting to look more focused and well put together. Only thing that I might take another look at is the lack of a stun break, but if you’re DS is on low enough CD, and DS-Fear is on a short CD as well, you should have a decent chance of keeping burst off of you. If I had to drop anything for a stun break I might take a look at swapping out Spectral Grasp for Walk or Armor, sicne you already have Dark Path on a shorter CD than Grasp. If you can be a bit more preemptive in avoiding the CC you can swap Soul Reaping XII for XI and get that stability while in DS. Works nice against heavy CC built opponents and will keep you from getting DS skill interrupted.

Either way, should be a fun build. Enjoy!