Guild Wars 2

Dhuumfire
Lately i have feeling that only me and anet know truth about this trait so i will explain it.

Dhuumfire IS a power necromancer trait. It is a PVP version of close to death. Basicly if you test it then you will realize that dhuumfire gives even higher overall dps than close to death.
So why is it that good for condi necros?
Average necro doesnt realize 1 thing –
Dhuumfire on power necro = good
Dhuumfire on condi necro = overpowered

What makes dhuumfire overpowered on condi build?
1) It procs off crit – critical chance is basicly main stat for condi necros, so its really easy to proc it.
2) Spite tree incrases condition duration – Longer conditions = meant for condimancers. Right? WRONG! Necromancer is meant to aply conditions in every build because it is hes utility too not only dmg. Incrased condition duration is there to make your immobilizes, chills, poisons, cripples longer not to incrase your dmg from condis.

Next patch – No more dhuumfire abuse by condimancers?
I really doubt this, cause players always want to abuse things they find strong.
Theres already alot of talk about how to spam most life blasts in condi specs.
But anet is making step to right direction and trying to avoid dhuumfire beeing abused by condi specs. So obviously their longterm goal is to get condimancers back to actual condi traits.
On my condi necro i am testing atm – 0/30/10/0/30
Build is basicly old school condimancer that relies on weakness and long fears + good LF generation.
In current state its weaker than dhuumfire build but with incoming nerf i think it might be the new meta build for condimancers, and they might be again CC/support in high end tpvp instead of main dmg dealers like their now.

In my build i have TWO damaging conditions and one of them is from a minor trait and another an average stack with long duration Torment on a 40second cool down. This change to Dhuumfire won’t make me go from Close to Death to use Dhuumfire – even in my DSLifeBlast build

Considering i have like 130 Condition damage and that is from Travelers Runes and 10 points into Curses.

We will see, i just don’t see it being that great. Though if they made it so that it inflicted EVERYONE with Burning with the Unyelding Blast trait then that would be another story i think.

Also, i see this as a HUGE nerf to condition Necromancer builds. The longer you are in Death Shroud the lower damage you will be doing due to the conditions fading off. It is more used for Gap closing, Tainted Shackles and then out. MAYBE Life Transfer depending on the situation.

Now having to stay in it LONGER to make sure Burning procs is going to make them be doing less damage than if they didn’t take it and stayed with normal conditions.

I was confused as hell reading your post, but at the end i finally got it, this was for tPvP

Most conditionmancers don’t want dhuumfire but the problem it is the only thing that is usable so we take it. If we had better traits in blood and death magic this would be less of an issue.

No man your just looking at it wrong, dhuumfire is not meant to be better than close to death, it is meant to be same as close to death only its meant for different environment.
And this is buff to condition builds because dhuumfire + terror is hybrid not a real condi build, atm theres no choice at all, if you want to play condimancer you gotta go 30 points and spite and not because full condi builds suck but just because dhuumfire is OP as hell for condimancer, now when it will be weaker im pretty sure many necros will take out points of spite and put them in real traits that are meant for condimancers.

Curious as to why it’s “OP as hell” compared to lets say Incendiary Powder. Which is at Master level, thus costing less to get and have a few second longer duration despite the LOWER condition Duration. Though that could be different in S/TPvP

Just trait wise to get IP it is 20 trait points and gives 20% Condition duration – Lasts for 4 3/4 seconds

Just trait wise to get Dhuumfire it is 30 traits and gives 30% condition duration and yet even with 10% MORE duration only lasts for 4 3/4 seconds AND is a grand master trait

So, does that mean that IP needs to be nerfed as well? considering it IS better trait than Dhuumfire…

(My bad, didnt realized it’s a PvP discusse. I’m really sorry, avoid reading this post)
After thinking about it, my opinion is that nothing will change….
Meta condi build would be still 30/30/x, and here I’ll tell you why. (PvE environment)

First:Burning on Lifeblast. DS is an important part of condition rotation, #2 and 5# over all. If you’re running with terrormancer even 3# (some boss are immune, but not all them).
Waisting 1 sec to cast a life blast it will not be so bad (also there are other buff incoming, like sigil of Earth going to 100% on crit, ecc..).
An other thing about DS is that the triat ‘Near to Death’ is a little wasted since all of my skills have a cd higher than 10 sec.
In my condition build i often put my last 10 points in Soul Reaping for ‘Path of Midnight’ (-15%cd on DS skills) but even with that I don’t see a point for having ‘Near to Death’.

Second:Buff/Nerf on Runes.
This one is quite important, and no one have talk about it. The Dev made an example with Runes set that give Might duration, moving higher bonus at the top of the set, and nerfing the low ones.
A lot of condition build (pre-dhuumfire) were using 3 set of runes (2 each) or a set of 2-4 runes for stacking condition (especially bleeding) duration. I suscpect that it will not be easy anymore after the 21 january.
Here’s is when Spite comes usefull. A longer condition duration allows us to stack more, to raise our dps of bleeding stack, or doing more burning tick inside that 10sec intern cd.
30% condition duration in the spite trait is important because it allows you to not pick runes set with condition duration (such as Undead)

However, Dev still said that this is only the tip of the iceberg, what we saw is not that full list of necro’s patch notes. I really think that we’ll find some good surprises.

Dhuumfire is OP, that´s why the best conditionbuild ingame is the Godfireguard….Burning OP nerf it!

Norjena.5172:

Dhuumfire is OP, that´s why the best conditionbuild ingame is the Godfireguard….Burning OP nerf it!

My Engineer build had PERMA burning, is that not overpowered? Why is a trait with a low duration and 10second cool down more powerful?

I like where you are thinking Leeto and you do grasp most of it, but I think you may be slightly off in your explanation. Posting here so I can remember to discuss this after I get some sleep. It was a long night at work. Good discussion in here though.

Zaganna.6034:

(My bad, didnt realized it’s a PvP discusse. I’m really sorry, avoid reading this post)

No worries dude, I had the same problem, I guess if OP had put “tPvP” in title, alot of people would have ignored it or something.

Yes im talking from pvp perspective. Never compare skills from different classes, its same like saying necros are OP because they have 2 health bars, and why no other class have 2nd health bar.
I never do PVE but have your tried dhuumfire build in tpvp or wvw? People literally MELT, you can kill everyone with no effort at all.
Dhuumfire aint OP but if you combine it with condi dmg + terror then its such incredible dmg, few months ago noone focused necros in pvp because we were more about supporting our team etc. but now necro is main target because if they dont take us out then we will kill everything in seconds.
Dhuumfire + terror necro is most powerful thing in pvp i have seen since release hands down.

Well considering that Necromancers were STRONGER before Dhuumfire was introduced that says something. While it is good, the counter that it has had having so much nerfed and then itself being nerfed several times has FORCED people to use it.

if they revert some nerfs from the past i hav eno problem whith dhuumfire being as it is presented..

However, I would suspect the patch notes won’t contain any special fixes or buffs revered nerf’s.. it will probably be 1/2 tooltip fixes and another 1/2 trait description changes. i am not suspecting any major fixes ahead ..

I would suggest, however that everyone created topics with CAPS LETTERING to complain about other classes.. the more topics the more attention.. So complain about every class am much as possible, and if you live in the US. try to go to GW2 gatherings and tourneys and sit on the lap of the dev’s as much as possible.

It worked before.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Well considering that Necromancers were STRONGER before Dhuumfire was introduced that says something. While it is good, the counter that it has had having so much nerfed and then itself being nerfed several times has FORCED people to use it.

I agree with this, I run more “old school” condition builds, 0/30/20/0/20, 0/30/10/0/30, etc, very rarely do I use the dhuumfire trait, even though though the damage output is significant, I prefer a bit more survivability and steady bleed pressure. The problem is since Dhuumfire was added builds that do not use Dhuumfire have been nerfed significantly, less bleed pressure, lower survivability and more hard counters. So yeah like many have said as a condimancer you are almost forced to use it to be effective.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Well considering that Necromancers were STRONGER before Dhuumfire was introduced that says something. While it is good, the counter that it has had having so much nerfed and then itself being nerfed several times has FORCED people to use it.

So now we are weaker because people kept on whining about it. This is good news?

aspirine.6852:

So now we are weaker because people kept on whining about it. This is good news?

No, it just shows how poor Anet are, they have us a trait many didn’t want and then they went and nerfed other conditions to accommodate this condition and then went and nerfed this condition several times…

People don’t take it because it is a great/useful trait they take it because they HAVE to

lets give the class something new to enjoy; identity crisis!

the patch will do NOTHING to change the condition necromancers and it is for a good reason. oh yeah now we are bad not only at attrition but also burst.

GG Anet you win.

Like others said my Engi has a better dhuumfire, and this is not a problem it seems.

“Dhuumfire on power necro = good
Dhuumfire on condi necro = overpowered”

Thank you for this thorough explanation, it’s clear to see you’ve arrived at this conclusion through controlled testing, detailed analysis and well documented comparisons.

It isnt even that overpowered, it is taken simply due to the fact they lose to much damage without it, thanks to all the nerfs to other conditions on skills and weapons thanks to the introduction of this trait which since all the nerfs started has also been nerfed several times…

I play necro dhuumfire for me in all honesty is to make up the fact that necros has no disengage skills (stealth blinks etc etc) its a kill or be killed at any situation…i also play a mesmer which btw lacks condi remove i still beat up necros with dhuumfire easy…and yes engi has a similar trait to dhuumfire and a engi could also stack as much condi as a necro can…dont see the point of this trait being changed because if i was going to go DS build id for sure not take dhuumfire…too many other MINOR / MASTER trait tht benefit DS alot more then a GS trait…

IF dhuumfire is gonna be (your life blasts apply x sec of burning once every 10 seconds pre target) its gonna be amazing across all builds and worth a gm trait (or a 1 second of burning on life blast no icd which would help power builds more), then no change is gonna happen, you just do (1-3-2-5) for condi cover and guaranteed cc for no dodge of your 1-2 hits. BUT it is gonna take more skill to pull off properly and its gonna be easier to counter in a teamfight situation via bodyblocks.

I like the way you think leeto. I have no idea why some people think its useless for some powermancers to use conditions at all…. Damage is damage and it certainly helps more with people who have high toughness low vitality also for sustained damage since as a necro we are sometimes heavily cced or just on the ground the whole time.

The problem is, how effective is it in builds with low/no condition damage compared to Close To Death? if you manage to have 1k condition damage then maybe but what is the MIN condition damage you should be looking for when thinking about this trait?

like i said when i run powermancer i would not choose dhuumfire either way because there is other alternatives that will benefit powermancers alot more…being that you do burn dmg considering your a powermancer you dont inflict tht much condi that it would be hard for them to cleanse out of it…

None, the trait is made with idea that powermancer goes with traits full into power and defenses + uses power amulet so trait is balanced around having 0 condi dmg, anything above it makes it more powerful than it should be.

Leeto.1570:

None, the trait is made with idea that powermancer goes with traits full into power and defenses + uses power amulet so trait is balanced around having 0 condi dmg, anything above it makes it more powerful than it should be.

If it stays the same, then it will be terrible. Its like at base in the Mists, with 30% added duration it is 2 and 1/2 seconds dealing a pathetic 684damage for a Grandmaster trait…

Its duration needs to be increased and the damage improved if it becomes linked to just Life Blast

I think ANET should simply convert to Burning for 1 second but remove internal cooldown. Stacks duration too.

aspirine.6852:

Like others said my Engi has a better dhuumfire, and this is not a problem it seems.

ye cause engis dont have fears and terror on top … necro should never gotten a burn at all.

Hoof.1523:

ye cause engis dont have fears and terror on top … necro should never gotten a burn at all.

They have plenty of confusion, knockbacks, stuns, great healing, immunity and such…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Also, i see this as a HUGE nerf to condition Necromancer builds. The longer you are in Death Shroud the lower damage you will be doing due to the conditions fading off. It is more used for Gap closing, Tainted Shackles and then out. MAYBE Life Transfer depending on the situation.

Now having to stay in it LONGER to make sure Burning procs is going to make them be doing less damage than if they didn’t take it and stayed with normal conditions.

Yeh I agree. Espicially as it will often take a few channels (at least) to land the burning as people dodge/block/evade. AND another thing is not only will you do less dps but you will also have way less sustain because you will use the life blast and lose yourself death shroud.

Also you only want to go into death shroud offensively every 17-20 seconds. So the ICD on dhuumfire being 10 seconds is almost irrelevent.

Dhuumfire will still be good in carrion specs though as life blast will do a ton of damage that way regardless. 30/10/0/0/30 carrion probably be good. No terror though….

The problem is: Dhuumfire Vs Close To Death
I dont think this change will make much difference. Condi builds will still take it as without it they are MUCH weaker but at the same time – will the lose of sustain and having to go into DeathShroud for 5+ seconds for Dhuumfire to proc be worth the lose of damage and conditions compared to not going into it at all.

Power builds will still take Close To Death, 700 damage (with 56 Condition damage) every 10 seconds is rather weak. Compare that to the 20% increased damage to all targets under 50% health – which will be better over the course of say a 30 second fight…

Hybrid builds, that would depend on the build and the player, if have good condition damage could take Dhuumfire but the lose of damage from Close To Death would still be noticeable

engis have confusion and a lot of cc that necro dont except of few fears with wery long cd .. simply anet again listened to whining and thats their results, if dhuumfire as grandmaster is OP what is then hammerwarior with 50% crit chance from ADEPT TRAIT !!!!!!!! who can smash to ground anyone in 4-kittens in spvp, www etc .. it you try to make sense to this nerf then you sould really look at another profesions ..

Dina Van Heyr.3018:

engis have confusion and a lot of cc that necro dont except of few fears with wery long cd .. simply anet again listened to whining and thats their results, if dhuumfire as grandmaster is OP what is then hammerwarior with 50% crit chance from ADEPT TRAIT !!!!!!!! who can smash to ground anyone in 4-kittens in spvp, www etc .. it you try to make sense to this nerf then you sould really look at another profesions ..

I wouldn’t call a 20s CD very long. Doom is instant, nearly unavoidable and can deal a LOT of damage in a short period of time.

Unsuspecting foe is a master trait since 10th December.

edit: typo

Dalanor.5387:

well i missed that some how ..

Dalanor.5387:

Dina Van Heyr.3018:

engis have confusion and a lot of cc that necro dont except of few fears with wery long cd .. simply anet again listened to whining and thats their results, if dhuumfire as grandmaster is OP what is then hammerwarior with 50% crit chance from ADEPT TRAIT !!!!!!!! who can smash to ground anyone in 4-kittens in spvp, www etc .. it you try to make sense to this nerf then you sould really look at another profesions ..

I wouldn’t call a 20s CD very long. Doom is instant, nearly unavoidable and can deal a LOT of damage in a short period of time.

Unsuspecting foe is a master trait since 10th December.

edit: typo

The stacks of confusion my engi puts out > doom or fear.

Because attacking while you have a nice amount of condition on you is a good idea, right?

Leeto.1570:

No man your just looking at it wrong, dhuumfire is not meant to be better than close to death, it is meant to be same as close to death only its meant for different environment.
And this is buff to condition builds because dhuumfire + terror is hybrid not a real condi build, atm theres no choice at all, if you want to play condimancer you gotta go 30 points and spite and not because full condi builds suck but just because dhuumfire is OP as hell for condimancer, now when it will be weaker im pretty sure many necros will take out points of spite and put them in real traits that are meant for condimancers.

Let’s say you are making a condition build and your first concern is choosing the traitlines that give you the most damage by stats. Then you take Spite and Curses.

You take Spite because of the condition duration. Now, maybe Anet intended it for only power necros to go full spite and pick up dhuumfire. But, if that is the case then they are extremely shortsighted, yes?

TLDR: Your point would be valid if Spite did not carry condition duration.

Oozo.7856:

TLDR: Your point would be valid if Spite did not carry condition duration.

Why does it matter what stats a trait line gives, you pick them for the traits not stats (ok except for profession mechanic boosters, like on engie, ele and mesmer its all fine to pick for the cdr).

Andele.1306:

Oozo.7856:

TLDR: Your point would be valid if Spite did not carry condition duration.

Why does it matter what stats a trait line gives, you pick them for the traits not stats (ok except for profession mechanic boosters, like on engie, ele and mesmer its all fine to pick for the cdr).

You take both stats and traits into consideration when making a build.

Tell me which two traitlines a necro looking to go “balls-to-the-wall” condition damage would invest points into? I mean, Curses is a no-brainer. What about the rest.

You realize that many condition necros looking to increase their damage output were investing points into Spite before Dhuumfire was even put into the game, right?

They did not put Dhuumfire deep into Spite because they didn’t think any condition necros would go that far in Spite. They put it that far into Spite so the condition necros who did go full on into Curses and Spite couldn’t invest many points into the survivability traitlines. That is how they tried to balance it.

Oozo.7856:

Andele.1306:

Oozo.7856:

TLDR: Your point would be valid if Spite did not carry condition duration.

Why does it matter what stats a trait line gives, you pick them for the traits not stats (ok except for profession mechanic boosters, like on engie, ele and mesmer its all fine to pick for the cdr).

You take both stats and traits into consideration when making a build.

Tell me which two traitlines a necro looking to go “balls-to-the-wall” condition damage would invest points into? I mean, Curses is a no-brainer. What about the rest.

You realize that many condition necros looking to increase their damage output were investing points into Spite before Dhuumfire was even put into the game, right?

They did not put Dhuumfire deep into Spite because they didn’t think any condition necros would go that far in Spite. They put it that far into Spite so the condition necros who did go full on into Curses and Spite couldn’t invest many points into the survivability traitlines. That is how they tried to balance it.

Well with conditions only being really specified trough 3 trees without additional limits (i.e. minion condi build) its Spite, Curses and Soul Reaping, Spite punishing enemies if you get ahead, Curses double dipping into your cc and SR covering your weaknesses.

But let me explain further, for example a condi thief based on teamplay will only have 0-20 points in the 2 lines that actually have cond dur/cond damage, because other lines give stronger benefits and again cover some weaknesses the cond thief might have, Then for example, Engies can have reat benefits with just 10 points in each “condition” line but 30-20 in others because they plain do more (shorter cds/more might).

TL:DR You still pick trait lines for traits over stats, just in situations where you aint sure/have your bases covered/want specific maximums the bonus stats might help you pick.

My only point here was that spite is the second best traitline for condition necros looking to boost up their condition damage output. Generally speaking, traits are more important than the stats you get from the traitlines since stats can be fixed by gear.

However, if you take a look at our traits with respect to doing more damage with conditions there is nothing there to compel you to go anything other than spite and curses (with the exception of the staff traits).

That makes Leeto’s argument that dhuumfire was made for power necros and not for condition necros kind of invalid. Dhuumfire is a condition necro trait. The reason it is so far into spite is to force condition necros going for full on condition damage to sacrifice some sustain and survivability to get it.

Also, signet mastery is in spite. Don’t tell me that signet mastery is tailored more for power necros than condition necros.

I think that when it’s maybe not a ideal change, it’s not that bad.
Allows to control your burning and now it’s not a spammed condition. Instead, you use it when you want to put higher pressure for timed spike.

Rym.1469:

I think that when it’s maybe not a ideal change, it’s not that bad.
Allows to control your burning and now it’s not a spammed condition. Instead, you use it when you want to put higher pressure for timed spike.

While the change was decent, they should now turn it into a Master Trait. It is no longer worth the Grandmaster it was given. I think they could even Buff it and put it into Soul Reaping.

In that Sort of situation, i would easily take it if it was a Master in Soul Reaping, sacrifice Life Force generation for extra damage is the right kind of changes they should be making.

Of course, they wont and it will still be stuck in what is imo the wrong tree. Moving it to Soul Reaping would open up different possibilities i think.

the bigest issue is that necro, especially condi one, got nerfed so many times because of dhumfire he got to keep it at “ballance” ha ha ha
now they take dhumfire away without reverting nerfs they done .. well done