Guild Wars 2

I have just recently begun working on a hobby-necro for s/tpvp having experience with engy and mesmer. I can’t ever remember being tossed about, locked down, and just generally abused as I have with this necro (especially the thief steal…holy crap).

I’ve only just started and im trying power/axe builds but respect to those who were initially attracted to necro and stuck with it after finding out you didn’t need to deal with being a ragdoll.

Couldn’t make a vul/might stacking build work. I got a consistent 15ish stacks of might and 20ish stacks of vul but it just didnt seem to be effective enough in spvp to carry the experiment over to tpvp. Going to try vul stacking and having minions take advantage of it. Wish me luck :-)

Axe is kind of ok on an MM.

If you aren’t running minions and want to have power based DPS, then Dagger is superior in every possible way. It forces you into thinking about mobility a bit more, but without mobility at 600 range for axe you are toast anyway.

Good luck and welcome to the party. It is a different anumal than Engi and Mesmer by a mile. No profession gets punished as badly as Necro for poor positioning, so keep your head on a swivel and watch your step.

See you in the Mists.

Yea necros don’t have it easy in pvp with their lack of short cooldown stun breakers, and difficulty obtaining stability. Dagger is by far the strongest power weapon and when used with wells it is possible to quickly burst down enemies. Lich form hits like a truck and gives you stability, so if you’re running power make sure to use it in difficult fights. Death shroud and its fear can be cast while stunned or dazed, so use that on HB warriors and other classes that will try to burst you out while you are crowd controlled.

Necros lack a lot of the burst other classes have, but they can win long fights through careful use of Death Shroud and maintaining your life force. Being less mobile is fairly painful, but you can slow other professions down pretty well with cripple, chill, and immobilize.

Most importantly, just stick with the class for awhile. The Death Shroud mechanic is almost like distortion or elixer s (I think thats the invuln one) as it can be used to soak up a good amount of damage if used properly once you become adept at using it. Keep in mind that its not always optimal to use Death Shroud for damage in pvp.

Good luck, I hope you learn to love this class.

Axe Training and Closer to Death both effect Life Blast damage. Axe is actually not so bad, and I prefer it so I don’t have to run up someone’s nose to hit them. Most of my damage comes from Life Blast, though. I just use Axe/Focus for Life Force and Vuln Stacking.

I don’t necessarily have a preference toward a power build, axe its just my first stop in the experimentation process. I wanted to try stacking might and vul first. Now I’ll try just vul as a means of increasing pet damage. I’ll probably finish with a retaliation build. Outside of that I’m not sure why someone would choose Axe.

Maybe life siphoning as it seems to have the most attacks in a given time but dagger has a siphon right in the bar so it seems to scream it.

djtool.8372:

Maybe life siphoning as it seems to have the most attacks in a given time but dagger has a siphon right in the bar so it seems to scream it.

Dagger wins hands down in this regard too. 1/4 s attack and #1 in the chain hits 2×. much faster than Axe without even considering the big leech/heal from Dagger #2.

If you’re gonna try out the minions, get to know their special skills very well, because you’ll need to be using them all the time. And resist the urge to use shadow fiend, I know he looks killer, and on paper he would be a grade A minion, but he’s one of the worst, at least in pvp, sadly enough.

“Lich form hits like a truck and gives you stability, so if you’re running power make sure to use it in difficult fights.”

I run nothing but dagger well builds, ran Lich for the longest time but I eventually came to the conclusion Golem is just all around better if you’re running wells. You can just get so many charges + KD to keep them in your wells and do a decent amount of damage (charge hits hard) to make up for the burst of lich (which is easy to avoid and the slow lich form can get wrecked fast by decent players). Not to mention constant pressure of the pet if you are dodging past it properly in a 1v1 or 2v1 for instance.

Lich form is going to give you more of a spike in power, Golem is going to give you more sustained damage. Both are perfectly acceptable in power builds, depending on what you are aiming for.

Otaking.4675:

“Lich form hits like a truck and gives you stability, so if you’re running power make sure to use it in difficult fights.”

I run nothing but dagger well builds, ran Lich for the longest time but I eventually came to the conclusion Golem is just all around better if you’re running wells. You can just get so many charges + KD to keep them in your wells and do a decent amount of damage (charge hits hard) to make up for the burst of lich (which is easy to avoid and the slow lich form can get wrecked fast by decent players). Not to mention constant pressure of the pet if you are dodging past it properly in a 1v1 or 2v1 for instance.

Yea, I run that for well builds, but lich form is terrific in 2v1 situations, especially vs thieves. You can drop the marks around yourself when they stealth and it only takes 2 or 3 auto attacks to drop a glass cannon thief from full hp. When I run well builds I generally bring flesh golem for the additional cc.

I’ve only been using the golem as im trying some minions but seeing as how I get controlled so much its nice to be able to add anither during a fight to sort of “balance it out”.

I also have zero love for the blobby minion. I don’t see the occasional blind that may or may not hit due to pathing worth the loss in damage.

I’m using the worm and bone monkeys and I like them a lot. The ranged pet looks strong but I feel 3 slots of pets for a power build is too much. The worm is great as it does the best damage and breaks stun. Also it never suffers from pathing.

Its easy to stack vul 25 times with axe and focus. Would it be worth taking epidemic to spread that? Sadly I don’t tpvp outside of solo-join so I am being honest here.

This experience is leading me to the conclusion that vul is a “soldiers” or “knights” condition. Soldier amulet is working well. Its fun to work with something new.

djtool.8372:

Its easy to stack vul 25 times with axe and focus. Would it be worth taking epidemic to spread that? Sadly I don’t tpvp outside of solo-join so I am being honest here.

I would vote no on the epidemic for just vulnerability. It takes up a slot that could be Well of Suffering or Spectral wall, both superior imo for pvp power builds. Well of Suffering will allow you to push enemies off points with it, and if you can lock enemies down inside of it using dagger 3 or flesh golem active you will be able to do a large amount of damage to them. Spectral wall is a great choice if you feel you need protection, its 10 stacks of vulnerability on enemies has a pretty long uptime with 30 in smite, just don’t forget to run through it for your protection.

@djtool, it looks like you are using mainly minions in your setup. Since minions are primarily single target damage, there isn’t much of a point spreading vulnerability to an entire team, when you won’t be hitting them much (considering the cost of not having another utility around).

Not for my benefit, for group fights.

More likely than not, you will be focusing the group target, so vulnerability is only going to help whatever AoE direct damage happens to be hitting other people. Epidemic just isn’t worth the slot, compared to what you lose by taking it, in this case.

Say what you want but necro has had only 1 viable build since release of game, i have played more different builds while leveling my lvl 40 thief than on my necro in past 8 months.
If you cant win/survive/evade 1v1 your spec isnt viable.
If you cant be fully effective at least once per minute your not viable.
If your spec is based around rng, situational kills or just one trick, its not viable.
If you cant reliably gain LF your spec aint viable.

^ This is just my opinion, i have seen loads of necros who are fine that they can Lich Form kill clueless opponents with #1 spam every 3 minutes and think they are perfectly fine.
It just starts to kitten me off that everyone says how necro have loads of viable specs when im stuck in same spec since release. (Only recently switched to 2 sec terror spec for wvwvw which is actually kitten spec too and not really viable, cause of its LF generation and situational dmg.)

Thieves have more viable specs than Necros? Yeah, sure.

Bhawb.7408:

Thieves have more viable specs than Necros? Yeah, sure.

I have no idea what is “viable” and what is “spec” for you. I am saying that for what i do in this game, respectively PVP and WvW i have played more good specs on my lvl 40 thief than on my 8 month old necromancer.
I know only 1 viable necro spec, that i have been playing since release.
You would be more helpful by educating me on all these viable necro specs that everyone talk about instead of dropping some sarcastic bullkitten in here.

There are plenty of posts with viable Necromancer builds that you can find for yourself, Nemesis alone has multiple builds that are out there. Look at his stuff first, then just browse the forums, we get a new build posted here at least a few times a week.

I define a Spec as a build that is either generic (condition/power burst), and thus has a lot of builds that follow the same basic idea, or very specific (Terror), and are uniquely different than another. So minion builds can be a very generic spec (20/0/30/20/0), or a unique minion based spec (Troll’s minionlord), which are different specs.

Viable means that it can satisfactorily fill its intended role or roles a majority of the time.

Bhawb.7408:

There are plenty of posts with viable Necromancer builds that you can find for yourself, Nemesis alone has multiple builds that are out there. Look at his stuff first, then just browse the forums, we get a new build posted here at least a few times a week.

I define a Spec as a build that is either generic (condition/power burst), and thus has a lot of builds that follow the same basic idea, or very specific (Terror), and are uniquely different than another. So minion builds can be a very generic spec (20/0/30/20/0), or a unique minion based spec (Troll’s minionlord), which are different specs.

Viable means that it can satisfactorily fill its intended role or roles a majority of the time.

Well thats about it, our different opinions come from the fact that you talk about PVE and im talking about PVP.
For me everything is viable in PVE so i cant even compare which has more viable specs, necro or thief, have even done dungeons with axe and condi traits so for me even no spec at all is viable.

I’m talking about PvP, WvW, and PvE. I didn’t say PvE at all in my post.

Bhawb.7408:

I’m talking about PvP, WvW, and PvE. I didn’t say PvE at all in my post.

Oh, then it was not misunderstanding, your just clueless about necro in PVP or im just overhelmed by all PVP viable builds that necros use in top teams and just cant think straight.
You mentioned Nemesis, so if you suggest me to check out PVE builds i presume you talk about PVE.

“Top teams”. There are so few people taking tPvP seriously right now that no one can definitely say what types of builds are viable. I’ve talked with the highest ranking tournament necros on the podcast, they all admit that while they prefer certain types of builds, they haven’t seriously experimented outside of pure glass direct damage burst, standard condi, or terror. If no one is even attempting to make other builds work, how can it be said that they don’t work?

Nemesis has WvW and sPvP builds too. He is the major reason Terror is so popular in PvP.

Bhawb.7408:

“Top teams”. There are so few people taking tPvP seriously right now that no one can definitely say what types of builds are viable. I’ve talked with the highest ranking tournament necros on the podcast, they all admit that while they prefer certain types of builds, they haven’t seriously experimented outside of pure glass direct damage burst, standard condi, or terror. If no one is even attempting to make other builds work, how can it be said that they don’t work?

Nemesis has WvW and sPvP builds too. He is the major reason Terror is so popular in PvP.

The people posting on forums or those who have grinded leaderboards with good teams arent only necros, theres load of hardcore PVP theorycrafters who have tried loads of builds. Necro has alot of builds but none of those builds fill role as good as any other prof would do, necro has on 2-3 builds that can compete with other classes, and even then only in certain team setups. Build cant be viable in PVP if i can make another profession in 2 min and outperform it.

Bhawb.7408:

Viable means that it can satisfactorily fill its intended role or roles a majority of the time.

and here lies the difference of opinion for the people thinking necro is fine and those who expect more from the class.

satisfactorily to me means under performing compared to the most competitive builds of which nearly every other class has 1 or 2.

when I think viable I think on the same level kittenter mesmer, bunker ele. etc. almost all of our “great build diversity” shrivels up like a kitten in cold water when compared to these.

I use Sirlin’s definition of viable: a strategic choice (in this case, a build) is viable if it is reasonable to pick or play at a high level, or if a player or team that makes that choice has a reasonable chance of winning high-level games.

Viable does not mean “as good as the best thing”.

Leeto.1570:

The people posting on forums or those who have grinded leaderboards with good teams arent only necros, theres load of hardcore PVP theorycrafters who have tried loads of builds. Necro has alot of builds but none of those builds fill role as good as any other prof would do, necro has on 2-3 builds that can compete with other classes, and even then only in certain team setups. Build cant be viable in PVP if i can make another profession in 2 min and outperform it.

You can say there are loads of hardcore theorycrafters, but if they don’t make posts on forums showing the math and then gameplay footage of how X build doesn’t work, then how is their opinion something you can cite to back up your opinion? Unless you can show that builds don’t work, you can’t say they are unviable, and that is a very difficult thing to actually do.

Dredlord.8076:

and here lies the difference of opinion for the people thinking necro is fine and those who expect more from the class.

satisfactorily to me means under performing compared to the most competitive builds of which nearly every other class has 1 or 2.

when I think viable I think on the same level kittenter mesmer, bunker ele. etc. almost all of our “great build diversity” shrivels up like a kitten in cold water when compared to these.

I agree that there are plenty of broken builds that can outperform us in certain areas. That doesn’t make our build less viable, it means we don’t compete with that specific role. When I am playing a “bunker” necro, my role isn’t just to sit there, eat damage, throw out a bit of CC, and then support with boons (like ele/guardians do), because others can do it better. Instead I give a lot more damage potential to a fight, I can counter enemy boon-stacking, pressure through AoE conditions, whatever my build is focused on doing. Essentially, I have gone for another role, because you are totally correct, other classes can do those builds better.

I think the biggest issue is people are stuck in the min/max mindset (if I’m going to burst, I need the absolute highest burst possible at the cost of everything else), and Necros just don’t work that way. We are hybridized at the very core of our mechanics, so you need to realize that we will never be able to min/max for one highly specific thing (the exception is team condi pressure). That doesn’t make us less viable, it means you just need to stop competing in something you’ve already lost in.

lettucemode.3789:

I use Sirlin’s definition of viable: a strategic choice (in this case, a build) is viable if it is reasonable to pick or play at a high level, or if a player or team that makes that choice has a reasonable chance of winning high-level games.

Viable does not mean “as good as the best thing”.

Very very nice definition, so how many specs we have with this definition? Yes, 2-3

Bhawb.7408:

You can say there are loads of hardcore theorycrafters, but if they don’t make posts on forums showing the math and then gameplay footage of how X build doesn’t work, then how is their opinion something you can cite to back up your opinion? Unless you can show that builds don’t work, you can’t say they are unviable, and that is a very difficult thing to actually do.

WTF, these rules apply to me but not to you? The fact that noone plays a build isnt enough and i need gameplay footage that it DOESNT work, yet build is totally viable just cause Nemesis said so…. can you at least give me footage where Nemesis himself plays hes builds in PVP not even talking about serious PVP players?

Discussing something with you is useless, your trying to tell me that theres 3 viable builds that every necro plays and then theres alot other viable builds that only those who created and their fans plan, and then theres viable builds that noone plays, and viable builds that arent even discovered. And if i say build isnt viable then i gotta prove it but if someone ever tried out a build and it had some synergy in it then it is surely viable.

And if we go back to beggining of this discussion with all your claims that every crap build is viable then necro still have more viable builds than thief even tho with your standarts of what is “viable” you cant even count how many viable builds each class has.

lettucemode.3789:

I use Sirlin’s definition of viable: a strategic choice (in this case, a build) is viable if it is reasonable to pick or play at a high level, or if a player or team that makes that choice has a reasonable chance of winning high-level games.

Viable does not mean “as good as the best thing”.

yeah great definition.

the next logical step would be…

all else equal if my build is not “as good as the next best thing” then I don’t have “a reasonable chance at winning high level games.”

as said before 2 maybe 3 builds that are barely viable and still under perform compared to other classes top builds.

It would seem if necros were to have a “broken” spec a-la the other professions it would be in the vein of shutting a team down. I dont see another profession having the copious amounts of poison, weakness, and chill that necro does. Team orientated condition management deserves mention as it can be strong but it is not as unique as the aforementioned bundle.

So if there is no such build in this vein that is highly regarded then I would conclude the profession must require at least some love and is likely to have a lower max-efficiency build variety..

Guys if you think other professions are so much better than necro, I invite you to go play one and quit the constant whining. Whining does absolutely no good, the devs probably won’t bother to read anything that isn’t constructive.

If you look in the other class forums there is at least 1 post with major support stating the class is bad for X reason. Criticism gets us nowhere, offer suggestions instead of just calling necromancer bad. I played ele for months and I feel like I contribute just as much or more to a team with my necromancer. The main reason for complaint when playing the Necro is their lack of burst, this is part of the class design. We have higher overall dps than most classes, just no real burst beside axe 2, which hits a little less than mesmer sword 2.

Thor Rising.7850:

Guys if you think other professions are so much better than necro, I invite you to go play one and quit the constant whining. Whining does absolutely no good, the devs probably won’t bother to read anything that isn’t constructive.

If you look in the other class forums there is at least 1 post with major support stating the class is bad for X reason. Criticism gets us nowhere, offer suggestions instead of just calling necromancer bad. I played ele for months and I feel like I contribute just as much or more to a team with my necromancer. The main reason for complaint when playing the Necro is their lack of burst, this is part of the class design. We have higher overall dps than most classes, just no real burst beside axe 2, which hits a little less than mesmer sword 2.

Having played some of those other classes, the only class that even remotely has room to complain is ranger and engineer. Not that engineer isn’t viable, but they only have one viable build now. Rangers… well, when was the last time you got killed by one outside of sPvP?

My challenge still stands. Show me a video of a necromancer winning 1vX in WvW that doesn’t involve up levels or someone rescuing them at the end of the fight by a team mate.

We have higher overall dps than most classes…

I call bullkitten on this.

now that i’m home I would like to add to this ‘definition of viable’ discussion.

In tpvp play, I would say that once you consistently find that one of them is going down when you are going down, you have reached the very floor of ‘viability’.

If you can candidly recognize that your traits and gameplay have not reached their ceiling, then you likely have a ‘viable’ spec within your environment (that being the level of gameplay you find yourself consistenly surrounded by).

So if someone says they have a ‘viable’ spec some skepticism must occur because you are being asked to not only trust a person’s level of self-examination but also accept the assumption that the environment they compete in is equal to or greater than your own.

for example its absolutely amazing how many people on these forums ‘hardly ever lose 1 v 1’.

just food for thought. I think its best to either be happy that they’re happy or to be happy that they’re happy that you’re happy.

(gameplay video)

(guide video)

This is my tournament roamer build… It can easily be diverted to axe and since you have range you can change your elite to lich if you don’t mind losing the knockdown and cripple the minion gives… The build also has NASTY survivability via traits making it viable with practice in 2-3 v 1 situations.

Leeto.1570:

And if i say build isnt viable then i gotta prove it but if someone ever tried out a build and it had some synergy in it then it is surely viable.

That is called the burden of proof. If you are on the affirmative side of a debate, with “There are only 3 viable builds” then the burden of proof rests upon you to prove that the statement given is accurate (generally by putting forth your reasons, then counter-debating what the opposing side presents). The side debating against you can merely prove a singular part of that statement wrong (such as showing a single 4th build that is viable) and they have won the debate. It is why winning a debate on the affirmative side is vastly more difficult, and why absolute statements get broken apart so quickly.

That isn’t to say that I always follow those rules, I’m sure I violate them all the time. But your argument of “everyone only uses 3 builds, therefore only those builds are viable” falls flat; I can show a single video of a build working in its intended role (of which there are plenty) and the debate is over.

Well stated Bhawb.

But I don’t think a lot of these issues are a debating exercise/challenge/competition.

Many posters are merely expressing themselves as best as they know how, probably without considering the ins and outs of debating protocol.

I try to inwardly assess the position put forward and see if that fits with my own experiences. If not, there are two alternatives. 1. the proposition has a (some) weakness or 2. my experiences do not match the proponents. More than likely its the second one (for me anyway as I dont know everything). This being the case it is worth it to me to listen to the proponent to expand my own knowledge rather than win the debate and stifle exchange of info. In the end I do not have to accept the proposition but I have probably learned a little along the way. And this is a two-way street…the poster will also learn some too,

(I really think this free flow of info has been largely responsible for the huge improvement in forum etiqette of late).

There are basically two groups of people that go on the forums. One goes with what you said; they are here to give information (people like Nemesis) or take it in (people who post with honest questions), and hopefully it is a two way street. In that case it isn’t a debate at all, there is just a free flow of information, maybe some very minor “debate-like” components, where one is putting forth an opinion and verifying it with facts or conversely presenting counter-facts, but mostly the standard kind of conversation you’d have normally. Those tend to be the best for the community, and I totally agree that they are responsible for the improvement in this subforum.

On the flip side, the other group are ones who are here because they have an opinion, and want to get that across. This is where debating (although informally done) takes place, in the best of situations, or unfortunately more common, devolves into “nuh-uh” /“yeah huh” fights. I wanted to post about debating protocol because I think it helps to understand that when you present an opinion that you want to push as factual, you are now responsible to actually prove that point (compared to free flow, where you are just expressing your experience and facts are less important). Otherwise things do tend to go into the other side of things; arguments.

Also unfortunate is how often people dismiss the idea that their interpretation of their experience is incorrect (I’ve done this plenty), and therefore the other party is labelled as wrong immediately.