Guild Wars 2

okay the your soul is mine shout need a buff a atleast in the healing,,, and prouble the lifforce 20% with 5 people around is not enough lifeforce but here are the number in pvp 0 healing power =3940… with 1200 healing power =4540..
and heres consume condition
0 healing power =5240…. with 1200 healing power =6400… not to mention that is also heals for every condi on u to which can mean alot more healing.
well of blood
0 healing power =5240… with 1200 healing power 6400… also give more healind during duration and traited for more…

and yes i think the scaling is the same but cause it give less healing and the give no extra healing either give 10% lifeforce per person hit … or i really dont see people running this since it barely give 25% health even in a full cleric spec. so the life force has to be alot so we can stay in ds or keep the life force as is and make it so u get 8-9k health if ur in a full cleric set

All necromancer heals need a bump in healing, without cleric gear because cleric gear is garbage and a class shouldn’t need cleric gear to make their heals not terrible, while other classes have far better heals.

Necromancer has some of the best healing scaling in the game, but yes some of our heals definitely need help.

YSIM should definitely have a 1.0 scaling on the main part of the heal, but the LF probably couldn’t scale with HP, it already scales with HP, and you can get the equivalent of an 8k heal off with soldier gear, on a 13s CD.

While I agree that the heal is a bit weak, the devs are probably wary about buffing it considering it can have a 13 second cooldown if traited. Everything about the Reaper is designed to be best when fighting multiple foes, and if the heal isn’t worth using when fighting just one, then the correct course of action is, of course, to just swap to another heal. You’re not locked into it just because you’re specced into Reaper.

Captain Unusual.9163:

While I agree that the heal is a bit weak, the devs are probably wary about buffing it considering it can have a 13 second cooldown if traited. Everything about the Reaper is designed to be best when fighting multiple foes, and if the heal isn’t worth using when fighting just one, then the correct course of action is, of course, to just swap to another heal. You’re not locked into it just because you’re specced into Reaper.

Which of course makes the specialization weak in any place where they are fighting a single raid boss.

A crappy design if you ask me.

Zenith.7301:

Captain Unusual.9163:

While I agree that the heal is a bit weak, the devs are probably wary about buffing it considering it can have a 13 second cooldown if traited. Everything about the Reaper is designed to be best when fighting multiple foes, and if the heal isn’t worth using when fighting just one, then the correct course of action is, of course, to just swap to another heal. You’re not locked into it just because you’re specced into Reaper.

Which of course makes the specialization weak in any place where they are fighting a single raid boss.

A crappy design if you ask me.

You can still use Consume Conditions. Just because the spec gives you the option of using a new thing doesn’t mean you have to use it all the time. There are some times it will be very powerful, and some times when you’ll want to use CC, or Well.

Captain Unusual.9163:

Zenith.7301:

Captain Unusual.9163:

While I agree that the heal is a bit weak, the devs are probably wary about buffing it considering it can have a 13 second cooldown if traited. Everything about the Reaper is designed to be best when fighting multiple foes, and if the heal isn’t worth using when fighting just one, then the correct course of action is, of course, to just swap to another heal. You’re not locked into it just because you’re specced into Reaper.

Which of course makes the specialization weak in any place where they are fighting a single raid boss.

A crappy design if you ask me.

You can still use Consume Conditions. Just because the spec gives you the option of using a new thing doesn’t mean you have to use it all the time. There are some times it will be very powerful, and some times when you’ll want to use CC, or Well.

Both of which are also terrible healing per second. It’s like saying you can have a dry kitten instead of diarrhea handed to you.

Less bad, but still bad.

YSIM and shouts in general are designed to be good in scaling situations, since we QQed incessantly about not having scaling defenses. This is a very strong scaling defense, even without the trait it is really strong against multiple targets, and against a single target we have other heals to use (and if they need to be balanced better that’s a separate issue).

It’s not a scaling defense for recovery. You just get more life force but if you’re in a zerg of mobs and your shroud is on cooldown or was put on cooldown by being depleted by raw damage, this heal won’t save you.

And the other heals are not good for recovery either. This is a PvE issue as in PvP you have constant fight breaks to replenish your HP but in PvE you often will face protracted fights with highly damaging mobs/bosses that will deplete your shroud in mere seconds and then you’re left running like a headless chicken as your heal at best recovers 30% of your hp while mobs/bosses are still pummeling you.

The answer has never been giving us more life force. We don’t need to be a further damage sponge. We need HP RECOVERY.

Your soul is mine is the healing skill with the lowest CD in the entire game. It just takes 13 seconds to recharge if you trait for it. To buff it’s healing and also let it give you life force would be totally op.

Kodama.6453:

Your soul is mine is the healing skill with the lowest CD in the entire game. It just takes 13 seconds to recharge if you trait for it. To buff it’s healing and also let it give you life force would be totally op.

For a soldier or sentinel build, though, it’s a blip on the radar as is. We’re not saying to buff it into the sky, just make the base 5240 like WoB and CC. Hell, make it a flat 5k heal and it’d be good to go. But 4k on a class that runs tankier stats on a regular basis is minimal. Not bad, but very minimal

All I think it needs is an extra healing feature for more healing per foes struck or possibly more healing based on how much LF you have but it definitely needs better heal scaling. It’s pretty worthless against single targets too, so maybe bump on base heal for a single target, then every target hit after the first one gives bonus healing.

This skill isn’t meant to use it against single targets. ô.o
I don’t think it needs to get buffed. Each healing skill, which grants a defensive mechanic (life force is a defensive mechanic for me) does heal for less because of this. Just look at Withdraw (evade while using it) and Shelter (block while using it). They give less healing as other healing skills too. Okay they give 500 more, but therefore YSIM has a really low CD.

Kodama.6453:

Your soul is mine is the healing skill with the lowest CD in the entire game. It just takes 13 seconds to recharge if you trait for it. To buff it’s healing and also let it give you life force would be totally op.

You forget that you need to hit 5 people for those 13 second cd. My opinion will stay, “get more CDR when hitting more targets” is an extremely stupid mechanism.

I didn’t forget this. This skill is meant to get used in large fights. Why is getting reward if you use your skill how it is meant to be used a bad mechanism?

5k base with a 1.0 healing power scaling would be good, any more and it does too much, and even making the changes proposed would push it into ~10k HP/LF. Also the entire point of shouts is scaling, they would never be allowed to be this strong single target, and we wanted scaling mechanics.

Kodama.6453:

I didn’t forget this. This skill is meant to get used in large fights. Why is getting reward if you use your skill how it is meant to be used a bad mechanism?

Because the thing Anet balances everything for is sPvP and in sPvP this system sucks, aswell as in every (current) PvE bossfight. Thats why. It needs to be a base reduction + a (lower) reward per enemy, that would be way better.

Bhawb.7408:

5k base with a 1.0 healing power scaling would be good, any more and it does too much, and even making the changes proposed would push it into ~10k HP/LF. Also the entire point of shouts is scaling, they would never be allowed to be this strong single target, and we wanted scaling mechanics.

I could definitely go for 5k base. The 4k base is just too small compared to our health pool – minimum 19k HP at level 80.

Captain Unusual.9163:

While I agree that the heal is a bit weak, the devs are probably wary about buffing it considering it can have a 13 second cooldown if traited. Everything about the Reaper is designed to be best when fighting multiple foes, and if the heal isn’t worth using when fighting just one, then the correct course of action is, of course, to just swap to another heal. You’re not locked into it just because you’re specced into Reaper.

I think this is pretty much spot on

It could probably use a little more healing. Mainly I think that it should be brought up with the theme of Reaper skills and in addition to healing, cause chill or vulnerability. Then it has not just healing, but some utility.

Captain Unusual.9163:

While I agree that the heal is a bit weak, the devs are probably wary about buffing it considering it can have a 13 second cooldown if traited. Everything about the Reaper is designed to be best when fighting multiple foes, and if the heal isn’t worth using when fighting just one, then the correct course of action is, of course, to just swap to another heal. You’re not locked into it just because you’re specced into Reaper.

It’s more than the heal alone that need’s to be considered OP. you have to look more broadly at traits and additional effects. Traited Your soul is mine has one of the lowest cd’s in game. Has the additional effect of LF generation which translates into another health bar. There are many additional ways to gain health in the traits as well. I’m currently running a berserker m/m power spec with spite, blood and death. Since they finally fixed minions to all attack consistently I have a large increase in my healing through life siphons. I also run with a d/wh, so even more healing. Anet has to keep multiple specs in mind when making their normal heal skills. Not just one.

How about if the healing double scaled? specifically by increasing based on allied players as well as enemies.

This way you can have a max of 10 targets 5 allied players (npc allies would make this too powerful due to minions) and 5 enemies. Meaning in pve you’re guaranteed to get the current “max value” (yourself is included in this calculation). However to keep things balanced the extra cooldown would still be calculated based on how many enemies you hit. This skill would, of course, still not help your allies, it would just take them into consideration for healing yourself.

So, for example, against a single boss in a pve environment (single target, but with your team) you would get bonus healing equal to hitting 6 targets (4 player allies + yourself + the boss) and increased cooldown bonus for hitting one enemy (the boss).

It’s fine as is. Healing + LF is already good and it’s only 20s.

Compare it to other heals.

Killyox.3950:

It’s fine as is. Healing + LF is already good and it’s only 20s.

Compare it to other heals.

It’s worse. It’s kinda hilarious you said to compare it to other heals when the heals per second of Healing Signet, Ether Feast, Glint’s heal, and Troll Unguent exist.

In fact, the minion heal far outheals this, we just can’t use it because the minion melts to AoE spam as all pets in this game are screwed.

It is a great heal if it had healing power scaling and a slightly higher base for its intended goal. Main problem right now is it is super weak outside of teamfighting, it really only works as a LF tool, not as a heal, so you need to be playing a build that doesn’t really need a heal, which is incredibly restrictive.

Its okay, its concept is fine, just needs some number boosts.

Personally think the shout trait just needs a boost. If the trait were 35% cd reduction all the time even if 0 targets were hit I would use this heal. If I got 10 seconds of swiftness and regen when I cast it like ranger does with its shout trait I would use it. If it converted a condi to a boon like guard shout trait I would use it etc…..

I really don’t get the point here. Necromancers were asking for skills, that would improve their team fight performance for a long time and this is exactly what they got. Skills, that will be much more useful in a team fight. This skill gets a cd of 13s, the lowest of all heal skills in game. Yeah, it isn’t as useful against solo targets, but it isn’t meant to be.

Kodama.6453:

I really don’t get the point here. Necromancers were asking for skills, that would improve their team fight performance for a long time and this is exactly what they got. Skills, that will be much more useful in a team fight. This skill gets a cd of 13s, the lowest of all heal skills in game. Yeah, it isn’t as useful against solo targets, but it isn’t meant to be.

The point is that it doesn’t really heal enough for a team fight oriented heal skill. Necros have anywhere from 18k to 30k hp, and 4k of healing is negligible. And, honestly, most necros run things other than healing gear (except some MMs, but they aren’t necessarily going to use the shout) so even though the scaling went up, it’s not really that effective still

Vydahr.4285:

Kodama.6453:

I really don’t get the point here. Necromancers were asking for skills, that would improve their team fight performance for a long time and this is exactly what they got. Skills, that will be much more useful in a team fight. This skill gets a cd of 13s, the lowest of all heal skills in game. Yeah, it isn’t as useful against solo targets, but it isn’t meant to be.

The point is that it doesn’t really heal enough for a team fight oriented heal skill. Necros have anywhere from 18k to 30k hp, and 4k of healing is negligible. And, honestly, most necros run things other than healing gear (except some MMs, but they aren’t necessarily going to use the shout) so even though the scaling went up, it’s not really that effective still

But we can’t just look at the total amount of healing per skill. To compare it to other healing skills we should look for its healing per second.

When you use it that way it is meant to be, you get a healing of 304,15/s (3954/13s). And that’s without any healing power.

Compare to other healing skills now. Consume Conditions is healing 262/s, again without healing power and traited for less cd. I didn’t count the extra healing for consumed conditions, because this is a side effect of the skill and there is a side effect which scales for Your Soul Is Mine too, it is life force generation.

The skill itself doesn’t heal much, but you are able to use it more frequently than other healing skills and that’s its potential.

Kodama.6453:

Vydahr.4285:

Kodama.6453:

I really don’t get the point here. Necromancers were asking for skills, that would improve their team fight performance for a long time and this is exactly what they got. Skills, that will be much more useful in a team fight. This skill gets a cd of 13s, the lowest of all heal skills in game. Yeah, it isn’t as useful against solo targets, but it isn’t meant to be.

The point is that it doesn’t really heal enough for a team fight oriented heal skill. Necros have anywhere from 18k to 30k hp, and 4k of healing is negligible. And, honestly, most necros run things other than healing gear (except some MMs, but they aren’t necessarily going to use the shout) so even though the scaling went up, it’s not really that effective still

But we can’t just look at the total amount of healing per skill. To compare it to other healing skills we should look for its healing per second.

When you use it that way it is meant to be, you get a healing of 304,15/s (3954/13s). And that’s without any healing power.

Compare to other healing skills now. Consume Conditions is healing 262/s, again without healing power and traited for less cd. I didn’t count the extra healing for consumed conditions, because this is a side effect of the skill and there is a side effect which scales for Your Soul Is Mine too, it is life force generation.

The skill itself doesn’t heal much, but you are able to use it more frequently than other healing skills and that’s its potential.

In ideal situations for the skill, yes. However, to get the 13 second cooldown, you need to be fighting 5 enemies. In PvE this isn’t an issue. However, if you’re against 5 enemies in PvP, that higher healing per second won’t counteract what you’re taking in damage. The cooldown is highly conditional and the skill isn’t potent enough to help you live through a team fight. Yes, you get LF. But if you’re not running Blighter’s boon, that means your hp will be just as low as when you went into shroud, so again, it’s not an ideal skill right now

Vydahr.4285:

In ideal situations for the skill, yes. However, to get the 13 second cooldown, you need to be fighting 5 enemies. In PvE this isn’t an issue. However, if you’re against 5 enemies in PvP, that higher healing per second won’t counteract what you’re taking in damage. The cooldown is highly conditional and the skill isn’t potent enough to help you live through a team fight. Yes, you get LF. But if you’re not running Blighter’s boon, that means your hp will be just as low as when you went into shroud, so again, it’s not an ideal skill right now

Just like I said, the skill is meant for exactly that situation where you encounter many enemies. And as long as this skills are allowed to hit objects in pvp (like in khylo), it shouldn’t be such a big deal to hit 5 targets.

The skill maybe isn’t ideal (don’t know it had to be), but it fits a team fight environment much better than the other healing skills, I guess.
It damages your foes → triggers on hit effects
it heals more reliable for more foes struck
it gives you more access to your main defensive and offensive mechanic → reapers shroud

It helps more to survive than the other skills.
The well needs you to stay in place for its full potential
the minion will die too fast in a team fight
the signet gives more support for your team, but less survival for yourself (what necromancers were asking for)
CC is competetive maybe, but it leaves you vuln.

So this new heal skill is still the best choice for team fights, don’t you think so?

Kodama.6453:

Vydahr.4285:

In ideal situations for the skill, yes. However, to get the 13 second cooldown, you need to be fighting 5 enemies. In PvE this isn’t an issue. However, if you’re against 5 enemies in PvP, that higher healing per second won’t counteract what you’re taking in damage. The cooldown is highly conditional and the skill isn’t potent enough to help you live through a team fight. Yes, you get LF. But if you’re not running Blighter’s boon, that means your hp will be just as low as when you went into shroud, so again, it’s not an ideal skill right now

Just like I said, the skill is meant for exactly that situation where you encounter many enemies. And as long as this skills are allowed to hit objects in pvp (like in khylo), it shouldn’t be such a big deal to hit 5 targets.

The skill maybe isn’t ideal (don’t know it had to be), but it fits a team fight environment much better than the other healing skills, I guess.
It damages your foes -> triggers on hit effects
it heals more reliable for more foes struck
it gives you more access to your main defensive and offensive mechanic -> reapers shroud

It helps more to survive than the other skills.
The well needs you to stay in place for its full potential
the minion will die too fast in a team fight
the signet gives more support for your team, but less survival for yourself (what necromancers were asking for)
CC is competetive maybe, but it leaves you vuln.

So this new heal skill is still the best choice for team fights, don’t you think so?

Only in the case of LF generation. And that really only is effective if you have a decent amount of hp for when shroud runs out/gets burned through. Because YSiM currently doesn’t add any healing per target struck, only LF. If they buffed the heal up to 5k and/or added extra heal per enemy struck (200-300) it’d be great. As it stands, CC is still better. Because realistically, you’re gonna have condis on you most times that you use it. And that’s, what, 700 extra healing per condi? As it stands, CC actually scales better in team fights because of all the condis that end up on you. You can heal for 10k with a well timed/lucky CC. You don’t get anywhere near that with YSiM in a team fight

Vydahr.4285:

Only in the case of LF generation. And that really only is effective if you have a decent amount of hp for when shroud runs out/gets burned through. Because YSiM currently doesn’t add any healing per target struck, only LF. If they buffed the heal up to 5k and/or added extra heal per enemy struck (200-300) it’d be great. As it stands, CC is still better. Because realistically, you’re gonna have condis on you most times that you use it. And that’s, what, 700 extra healing per condi? As it stands, CC actually scales better in team fights because of all the condis that end up on you. You can heal for 10k with a well timed/lucky CC. You don’t get anywhere near that with YSiM in a team fight

Actually, CC does heal for a larger amount, that’s right. So, if you want a burst heal, it is the skill to go. YSIM is more of a sustain heal, beause you can use it more frequently and it gives life force. But because it is giving life force, there is some synergy, which seems to get ignored.

More life force can mean the following:
higher weakness uptime by Weakening Shroud
sustain heal by unholy martyr
sustain heal by Blighter’s Boon
group heal by Life From Death and Transfusion
more condi pressure by Dhuumfire….

aaaaand so on.
More life force means more synergy with all traits, which improve it.

Kodama.6453:

Vydahr.4285:

In ideal situations for the skill, yes. However, to get the 13 second cooldown, you need to be fighting 5 enemies. In PvE this isn’t an issue. However, if you’re against 5 enemies in PvP, that higher healing per second won’t counteract what you’re taking in damage. The cooldown is highly conditional and the skill isn’t potent enough to help you live through a team fight. Yes, you get LF. But if you’re not running Blighter’s boon, that means your hp will be just as low as when you went into shroud, so again, it’s not an ideal skill right now

Just like I said, the skill is meant for exactly that situation where you encounter many enemies. And as long as this skills are allowed to hit objects in pvp (like in khylo), it shouldn’t be such a big deal to hit 5 targets.

The skill maybe isn’t ideal (don’t know it had to be), but it fits a team fight environment much better than the other healing skills, I guess.
It damages your foes -> triggers on hit effects
it heals more reliable for more foes struck
it gives you more access to your main defensive and offensive mechanic -> reapers shroud

It helps more to survive than the other skills.
The well needs you to stay in place for its full potential
the minion will die too fast in a team fight
the signet gives more support for your team, but less survival for yourself (what necromancers were asking for)
CC is competetive maybe, but it leaves you vuln.

So this new heal skill is still the best choice for team fights, don’t you think so?

Which means you design a skill to be obsolete in PvE raids, because bosses are SINGLE TARGET.

That’s crap design. Necromancers don’t need skills that are garbage single target and decent in a group. They need good healing skills in both situations, period.

In fact, it’s not even great for a group because in a group fight you’re not worrying about long term healing. At the current state of the game, you’re worried about spike damage from the mesmer/thief+ elementalist+engineer blowing your necromancer up and your 13 second 4k heal isn’t going to help in the slightest, especially since as a reaper you will be affected by poison on your heal as you don’t have consume conditions, reducing the 4k heal to an even more miserable amount.

It’s good for you that you think more life force is good, but reaper shroud in pve is a DPS loss so I’d rather my survivability not be tied to a form that gimps my DPS compared to using my greatsword.

Kodama.6453:

I really don’t get the point here. Necromancers were asking for skills, that would improve their team fight performance for a long time and this is exactly what they got. Skills, that will be much more useful in a team fight. This skill gets a cd of 13s, the lowest of all heal skills in game. Yeah, it isn’t as useful against solo targets, but it isn’t meant to be.

Well the skills are supposed to be good without traiting. Even if they were traited the expected amount of foes hit for a good effect is 3 not 5.

Times like this I wish I documented the healing numbers from the skill. I have to hope that the numbers on the wiki are correct.

YSIM: 3954 heal, 20 second cooldown. 4% LF per enemy hit (so at least 4%). Can currently be traited to reduce recharge by 7% per enemy hit, so with traits it is an 18.6 second cooldown at the least. 0.75 second activation time. At the most, it is a 13 second cooldown and 20% life force per activation. 259 base damage.

Consume Conditions: 5240, 724 per condition consumed. Self inflicts 5 stacks of vulnerability for 4 seconds. 30 second cooldown. 1.25 second activation time. Can be traited to have as low as 20 seconds, but also will cause blind for 4 seconds.

Well of Blood: 5240 + 280 × 6. Total of 6,920. 40 second recharge. 1 second activation time. Heals up to 5 allies in its radius. Can be traited to a 32 second recharge with protection and 109 additional healing per pulse per enemy caught in the well. At minimum this is 654 more health, at maximum this is 3270 more health. Also causes AoE protection when traited.

Signet of Vampirism: 325 health when hit, 1 second ICD. 3960 initial active heal, with 390 × 5 additional heals possible given enough attacks, totaling to 5910. 35 second cooldown, 1.25 second activation time. A group can heal off of the siphons, and also do additional damage. Alone the skill does 1005 damage, but in a group it does 5025 damage. Can be traited for a 28 second cooldown, along with 3 × 15 might and 2 boon conversions on activation.

Summon Blood Fiend: This one is tricky, since the cooldown is dependent on how long the creature lives before blowing it up. Just by staying alive it does 926 health every 3 seconds. By sacrificing, it gives 3960 health. The total time for a summon + sacrifice is 2.25 seconds, on a 16 second cooldown.

With all of the numbers out of the way, I’m going to break it down into heals per second.

YSIM Minimum: 191 per second. +51 scaled health via life force.
YSIM Maximum: 191 per second. + 256 scaled health via life force.
YSIM Traited minimum: 204 per second. +55 scaled health via life force.
YSIM Traited maximum: 288 per second. + 386 scaled health via life force.

CC: 168 per second. +23 per condition.
CC Traited: 247 per second. +34 per condition.

WoB: 169 per second. 41 per second to allies in the well.
WoB Traited minimum: 230 per second. 51 per second to allies in the well.
WoB Traited maximum: 309 per second. 51 per second to allies in the well.

SoV: 163 per active heal. 325 w/passive. Active give 54 per second to attacking allies.
SoV traited: 202 per active heal. Passive the same. Active gives 67 per second to attacking allies.

Blood Fiend: 309 health per second.
Taste of Death: 236 health per second assuming active blood fiend. 217 without.

This is only a numbers analysis, so keep in mind that Blood Find and SoV require no cleave and a massive beatdown to get their maximum passive numbers. I’ll be looking at the active numbers mostly.

If the life force is valuable, YSIM without traits is alright. It is 242 scaled health per activation (assuming at least one target, because why in the world would you use YSIM out of combat?). That is as good as CC + 3 conditions, not factoring vulnerability. It is outright better than Well of Blood and Signet of Vampirism untraited. All in all, if you need the life force, YSIM is pretty solid.

The traits make things more complicated, because then you start to factor in utility and sacrifice. You must give up Close to Death for Signets of Suffering, Path of Corruption for Master of Corruptions, etc. The problem is that Augury of death is a bad trait. It only works when you’re surrounded. If those conditions are met, then YSIM with Augury of Death is a monstrous heal. 674 scaled health per second is nothing to sneeze at.

But the other traits don’t scale down, and that is where YSIM falls behind. Consume Conditions becomes the highest practical heal, if you don’t mind the blind and vulnerability. Signet of Vampirism becomes pure aggression, stacking might and converting boons and doing up to 5k piercing damage to an enemy. Well of Blood synergizes well with other wells, acts as group support, and in select scenarios that life siphon adds up to a massive heal (note: this scenario is more select that Augury).

Blood Fiend is just kind of… there. Theoretically good, but impractical to use., and easily interruptable.

Tl:dr, YSIM is fine as a heal. It is Augury that is terrible.

@Arachnid Those numbers are fine and well but the problem is our heals aren’t that great either compared to other classes and that 1 health does not equal 1 life force.

In PvE particularly since with the buffs to greatsword you don’t want to kitten your DPS by entering Reaper Shroud, so you will be taking far less advantage of that LF. In fact, there’s the scenario where you need the heal to keep your scholar bonus up but are capped at life force already, and you waste the life force from YSIM.

spoj also demonstrated in his Bloomhunger solo that the bloodfiend provided him with far better sustain relative to the other heals.

The Blood Fiend is super weak in WvW and spvp but in PvE the weakness is less pronounced since it’s a ranged minion and often you can position it to not be cleaved in melee if you precast him before entering melee range and opening with a ranged attack like reaper’s scythe or wells.

The above point applies as well that necro heals don’t exist in a vacuum. Many other classes have far better heals and that is precisely why the necromancer in pvp is such a juicy target to train, because he has no immunities and his recovery options are bad so a group spike is particularly devastating whereas a mesmer/thief can just blink/stealth away or a warrior can pop up immunity stances/shield stance.

Tim.6450:

@Arachnid Those numbers are fine and well but the problem is our heals aren’t that great either compared to other classes and that 1 health does not equal 1 life force.

That is not a problem that is unique to YSIM. That is a global necro problem, and as such the thread is mis-titled and misdirected if that is the real issue.

I didn’t go into this, but here’s how I calculated the scaled health via life force.

Life Force has two things to consider. First, without traits, the LF bar has 69% of your maximum health, so at minimum you have 13,256 additonal “health”. Second, damage is reduced by 50% while in shroud, so technically this is 26,513 additional health against direct attacks. This value of 26.5k is what I used when converting life force to practical health. 4% LF thus means, at minimum, 1061 health.

This is a messy conversion, though. The elephant in the room is degen, which is 4% per second untraited. The gorilla in the room is condition damage, which doesn’t get scaled down. The little birdy in the room is that the last hit which brings the necro out of shroud doesn’t receive the 50% damage reduction.

In general, I just go with the straight 26.5k health conversion, because it is important in two aspects. First is the PVE tactic of Shroud Flashing, where you click shroud on and off real quick to take a big hit from an enemy (while also using certain skills). When shroud flashed, this is very little degen, so the life force bar acts as a second health bar to absorb bursts. Second, in PVP there are a lot direct damage burst specs which will try to kill you. These bursts are frequently executed in the span of 2 to 3 seconds, meaning that again there is very little degen for the massive amount of damage being received.

Against sustained damage, you can consider shroud as an effective health bar, but sustained damage does 1061 additional damage per second while using it.

The whole necro healing issue is central to the nature of shroud. Not only does the necro technically have the highest base health in the game because of shroud, but also there are a lot of skills (most analyzed extensively in other threads) that generate life force. This generation can be seen as a form of healing, and when considered as a form of healing the necromancer actually has high health regeneration. Heck, dagger auto can be seen as healing for 1k health per second at minimum health.

This leaves the devs in a tough spot. To balance out the high base health and theoretical healing (alongside of vampirism), they are gutting the necro’s actual healing and active defenses. Are they gutted too much? Good question. Just be aware that giving the necro the same real healing as other classes on top of its theoretical healing could easily make necros OP.

I just wish at the very least regen and water field blasts healed you in death shroud.

Water field blasting will be the premier raid healing strategy and gimping the necro out of healing while in death shroud because he was knocked down to dangerously low health levels— and the time he needs healing to not die the most, he doesn’t get healing— is going to be a problem.

Myself and friend ended up two manning The Butcher in honour of the waves and I found it actually really good for a heal. Remember that it recharges while in reaper zhroud, so you can do what I did, hang on by the seat of your pants against an enemy by alternating between rs and using the shout when you briefly pop out of it. I managed to melee the fat git because of it.

Loki.4871:

Myself and friend ended up two manning The Butcher in honour of the waves and I found it actually really good for a heal. Remember that it recharges while in reaper zhroud, so you can do what I did, hang on by the seat of your pants against an enemy by alternating between rs and using the shout when you briefly pop out of it. I managed to melee the fat git because of it.

I melee the fat git without shroud. His melee attacks are slow and you can just flash death shroud to eat one hit when you run out of endurance and pop back out.

To me this really sounds like those PVT guardians and d/d eles in PvE saying “well my other crappy group mates died and I was able to slowly kill the guy on my turtle setup”.

Negligent play by others is hardly a credit to a skill/build.

As fun as being a snotty elitist may be for you, let me steer you back to the point I was making. If you make heavy use of the shroud, it’s essentially always off cooldown in most situations.

Loki.4871:

As fun as being a snotty elitist may be for you, let me steer you back to the point I was making. If you make heavy use of the shroud, it’s essentially always off cooldown in most situations.

It will always be off cooldown in 13-20 seconds (augury of death traited assumed for the lower range), being in shroud doesn’t hasten its cooldown it only means you relied on shroud to make it to the cooldown.

In this case it’s not a credit to the strength of the heal, you’re surviving because of shroud.

Again if I could get your soul is mine to look like this. I would use it.

Zenith.7301:

Loki.4871:

As fun as being a snotty elitist may be for you, let me steer you back to the point I was making. If you make heavy use of the shroud, it’s essentially always off cooldown in most situations.

It will always be off cooldown in 13-20 seconds (augury of death traited assumed for the lower range), being in shroud doesn’t hasten its cooldown it only means you relied on shroud to make it to the cooldown.

In this case it’s not a credit to the strength of the heal, you’re surviving because of shroud.

Fait enough, but I personally still enjoy the short cooldown and life force it contributes. I suppose I see it as a way to get some life force as much as a heal, to get back into reaper shroud. The %isn’t much, but I was running full valkyrie during the beta, so it was still a noticeable increase. It can potentially work for a very aggressive player that likes being in the shroud. Outside of this it’s got problems I’d readily agree-and ask why not simply take a different heal? Of course, seeing it buffed would be nice, butas it is I think it still works.

Because all our heals suck, I think is the point many people raise ;(

And the only heal we happily used, Consume Conditions, got a cooldown increase nerf and 5 stacks of vulnerability just to accommodate a new crappy trait nobody will use either lol.

I use warhorn though so that’s why I’m never wanting for life force, between warhorn 5 and focus 4 im bathing in life force.

Zenith.7301:

Because all our heals suck, I think is the point many people raise ;(

And the only heal we happily used, Consume Conditions, got a cooldown increase nerf and 5 stacks of vulnerability just to accommodate a new crappy trait nobody will use either lol.

I use warhorn though so that’s why I’m never wanting for life force, between warhorn 5 and focus 4 im bathing in life force.

There wasn’t enough CC qq. I’ve been constantly needing my heal 5 seconds ago since the cd nerf. Master of Corruption should have the cd reduction part of it merged with path of corruption, and then move the new trait to grandmaster. They could then move down Parasitic Contagion and make a new master trait that power/hybrid specs like.

Necro heals are bad, but I feel that’s because they get what is essentially condition immunity and limited damage reduction. A good necromancer can be hard to kill already, good heals as well would be a massive drag

Loki.4871:

Necro heals are bad, but I feel that’s because they get what is essentially condition immunity and limited damage reduction. A good necromancer can be hard to kill already, good heals as well would be a massive drag

It’s not like we were meta before they nerfed CC.