Guild Wars 2

Edited: Till I can rework the idea into something more manageable I’m gonna go ahead and remove the previous post ;P however if you want to continue the discussion feel free to.

That discussion was the overall goal of my post after all. seems like it worked if not in the way I originally intended.

No, crap idea
15 chars

Something a BIT more indepth mighta been nice prysin. But alright.

“crap idea” All im throwing out is just that. an Idea. Im not screaming for a nerf or anything. Just looking for a method of mitigating what is probably gonna be coming if the balance team holds true to there past patterns. If you want to shut it down then do so with an actual post. Not a 15 chars twitter chat.

Nope, I don’t like the idea.

“sigh” alright.fair enough. The way I see it though is in the end were just gonna get hit with a numbers nerf or well end up being “built around” Id hoped to avoid that.

But meh :P either way. let this post dissapear into the forum void then. no point to keep it going if theres no discussion to be had.

Well first of all it either has to be an aoe or a single target ability. I don’t think there is a single skill in the game that can be both depending on how you use it. My guess is that it would be difficult to implement. Also, making RF a close range AOE burst wuld buff it even further.

Other than a purely numerical nurf, which is I think what will most likely happen, it would be nice to make RF have a ranged penalty: Full damage at over 1200 range, then -10% for each 300 units the target is closer. Then rangers would have to be more careful about positioning, knockback and immobilize since once a target is close, the burst potential would be much reduced. I mean if this is RANGED burst then the most natural disadvantage is that it should only worlk well at range.

Shadelang.3012:

“sigh” alright.fair enough. The way I see it though is in the end were just gonna get hit with a numbers nerf or well end up being “built around” Id hoped to avoid that.

But meh :P either way. let this post dissapear into the forum void then. no point to keep it going if theres no discussion to be had.

I don’t think Anet will nerf RF, I still have to see a LB ranger in any top PvP team comp. You always see at least 1 guardian/warrior/ele/engi but ranger are very rare.

And in WvW LB ranger is still not “meta”, if you lose against a LB ranger it means he outplayed you.

Making the skill require a Kill Shot level cast time before being used at range would make it the worst range burst skill in the game. Kill Shot already suffers so much from it’s telegraph that warriors flat out don’t use the rifle, despite the rifle also having a Rapid Fire-lite on it. Effectively you’re proposing the skill take over a full second to charge up followed by a 2.5 second channel time, taking almost four seconds in total to pull off.

Which, coincidentally, puts the skill back in the situation it was in before the buff. The auto attack would almost do more DPS than Rapid Fire at range.

Using it at close range would also make the longbow play style entirely counter intuitive. It’s a LONGbow. Designed to fight at maximum range. The auto attack does the best damage at maximum range and two of it’s abilities are used to keep the enemy away from the user. If it’s primary burst was a melee skill players would have to run into melee with a ranged weapon to maximize their attack, which no other burst profession has to do. Their melee bursts are all on melee weapons. Warrior rifle, being a ranged weapon, has two ranged bursts on it. That’s what these weapons were designed for and how they should be used.

People like to talk about the longbow like the buff made the weapon a no brainer to use. “Oh, rangers just have to hit 2 and auto attack!” Well consider this. Before the patch the longbow ranger didn’t even press 2! The auto attack was the only damaging skill. You only used Rapid Fire on thieves and the occasional mesmer, and the other skills were only for emergencies. So the longbow ranger basically just… Auto attacked for maximum damage.

I’m sure veteran longbow rangers are having a good time having to hit a second button to maximize DPS, and actually having to think about when to launch their burst and when not to. Please don’t nerf Rapid Fire back into being weaker than just auto attacking.

Even though I don’t necessarily find the new RF to be OP, I think it could use some tweaking to it’s opportunity cost. As it is currently, I find it easy, maybe too easy, to just use it whenever it’s off-cooldown and be both effective and safe doing so. While this isn’t the case at higher levels of PvP, I find it to be as valid tactic as any when playing hotjoins or roaming in WvW.

What I would like to see is a small movement-speed reduction while channeling the skill (10-20%). This would allow some room for the opponent to either back out of RF’s range or more easily make a rush towards the ranger. I imagine the optimal range to use the skill would then be at mid-long range where the target is too close to completely get out of the skill’s range (currently this can’t be done even at max range if both the ranger and opponent are moving at same speed and the opponent isn’t burning any dodges or cooldowns) and, at the same time, too far to just step behind the ranger.

Self-slowing would also make chasing an opponent with RF impossible which (in my opinion) while being entertaining to the chaser can also be very frustrating to the one trying to disengage. Also it looks kinda stupid to just steamroll forward while shooting a bunch of arrows without any effort.

I think we should make rapid fire a 2 second long self rooting crouching single shot attack that hits for 8-13k. Because we’ve all seen how effective that work with warrior kill shot. Let’s make rapid fire not be rapid at all and dumb this complex skill right down. Slow and easy wins the race kinda thing. We can rename slow shot.

People seem to forget that you do have to build around LB for RF to be strong. If running say, clerics or PVT, RF will max out at 5k to a glassy target 3, 2k to a heavy target. If i compare that to other bursty skills, such as Final Thrust for Warriors, Lich Form auto for necros, Big ol bomb for engi or heartseeker for thief, then RF is perfectly in line, even slightly weaker then some of these.

LB or rather rapid fire, still require 6 points into a single trait line along with armor and trinkets witb DPS stars, just in order to obtain good damage.

CONCLUSION: Longbow, including rapid fire, is well balanced in terms of counters, weaknesses, investment and versatility.
It is a devastating one-trick-pony, that is all. No more, no less.

You all are seriously over thinking this.

The best way to nerf Rapid Fire is to simply cut the number of arrows in half from 10 to 5. There you go, instant balance! Because now it’s identical to volley, which has never gotten a single complaint against it in 2 years! Wooooooooooooooot!

Prysin.8542:

People seem to forget that you do have to build around LB for RF to be strong. If running say, clerics or PVT, RF will max out at 5k to a glassy target 3, 2k to a heavy target. If i compare that to other bursty skills, such as Final Thrust for Warriors, Lich Form auto for necros, Big ol bomb for engi or heartseeker for thief, then RF is perfectly in line, even slightly weaker then some of these.

LB or rather rapid fire, still require 6 points into a single trait line along with armor and trinkets witb DPS stars, just in order to obtain good damage.

CONCLUSION: Longbow, including rapid fire, is well balanced in terms of counters, weaknesses, investment and versatility.
It is a devastating one-trick-pony, that is all. No more, no less.

It used to be on the forums that people were talking about Signet of the Wild + Signet of the Hunt + Maul, and you could throw away a few other skills in there too like Mighty Roar and Beastmaster’s Might, Air/Fire Sigils, etc. to get a 15K+ Maul. That’s a One-Trick-Pony!

I think its time for people to stop using that phrase improperly and call Rapid fire for what it is. It is a burst skill that at least 50% of all other weapons have, and it is definitely not the weakest one by a wide margin.

Maybe just make it root or something. As it stands, it is a low risk high reward skill. Being executed at max range lowers risk significantly, lower channel time does as well. I’ve run into quite a few rangers who find little places to jump to(Like the giant torch next to the middle point in Silent Storm) then just stand there sniping anyone who approaches. Because of the increased elevation, some classes flat out have no way to deal with this due to lacking pulls or long range skills(And if they did have pulls, rangers can always gain stability for a decent amount of time). This gives it pretty much no risk unless your enemy really focuses fire on you and they happen to have a ranger as well.

I’ve been playing my Mesmer recently and honestly, I find myself considering swapping out stun breaks for reflects, because stun breaking the knockback shot rarely works as they’ve already started channeling RF. If it rooted, it would increase the risk to match the reward by preventing them from dodge cancelling when it is reflected. It just gets annoying after a while when the only thing that hits you is RF+Autoattack, and you can’t kill them fast enough because of disables+entangle then running away to max range. Literally had a ranger who I got low on health, entangle, chain both pet disables and knockback shot, all so he could get far enough away to heal.

Don’t get me wrong though, rangers needed a buff. But maybe spread that buff around to other skills instead of just dumping it all into one.

Necrotize.2974:

Don’t get me wrong though, rangers needed a buff. But maybe spread that buff around to other skills instead of just dumping it all into one.

Whenever you are playing against a live competitor (i.e. NOT AI), how much damage you do is insignificant compared to WHEN you do your damage.

PvP is a game of windows. If you are unable to do lethal damage during the appropriate window, you will never succeed in combat, especially if your foe CAN do lethal damage in his window.

All ArenaNet did was change RF so that it was capable of doing damage in a short enough window to be relevant in PvP. Giving Rangers lots of little buffs all over the place would keep them irrelevant in PvP. Giving Rangers a single skill that allows them to burst at the appropriate time means that you will have to address their relevancy by changing your build.

The whole point of buffing and nerfing is to get people to change builds. However I see the meta builds are still going strong.

Just make it stationary so rangers can’t run after you and burst you down at 1500 range. Will make it more important to time it and harder to land a full burst.

The Ranger class already has significant issue with placement and disengaging. Especially on a power build with longbow. On top of that, it already has 1 stationary skill. A second isn’t realistic. Unless of course we’re talking about a 45% damage increase to compare it to hundred blades?

Atherakhia.4086:

You all are seriously over thinking this.

The best way to nerf Rapid Fire is to simply cut the number of arrows in half from 10 to 5. There you go, instant balance! Because now it’s identical to volley, which has never gotten a single complaint against it in 2 years! Wooooooooooooooot!

which would cut its DPS in half.

So if RF is 10% stronger then volley -50% shots = 40% weaker. I c what you did there, warrior fanboy.

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

You all are seriously over thinking this.

The best way to nerf Rapid Fire is to simply cut the number of arrows in half from 10 to 5. There you go, instant balance! Because now it’s identical to volley, which has never gotten a single complaint against it in 2 years! Wooooooooooooooot!

which would cut its DPS in half.

So if RF is 10% stronger then volley -50% shots = 40% weaker. I c what you did there, warrior fanboy.

nononono

Less arrows for same damage.

Though you did bring up a valid point. Perhaps less arrows for 90% of the damage is more reasonable.

Atherakhia.4086:

The Ranger class already has significant issue with placement and disengaging. Especially on a power build with longbow. On top of that, it already has 1 stationary skill. A second isn’t realistic. Unless of course we’re talking about a 45% damage increase to compare it to hundred blades?

Talking about WvW here.

Rapid Fire is 1200-1500 range. Hundred Blades is melee range. You can just take one step backwards and it’s gone.

Rapid fire is no doubt the most powerful skill on the longbow. Make it stationary and let the other skills be mobile then, idc. Why do people want to make a class as easy as possible?

Atherakhia.4086:

Prysin.8542:

Atherakhia.4086:

You all are seriously over thinking this.

The best way to nerf Rapid Fire is to simply cut the number of arrows in half from 10 to 5. There you go, instant balance! Because now it’s identical to volley, which has never gotten a single complaint against it in 2 years! Wooooooooooooooot!

which would cut its DPS in half.

So if RF is 10% stronger then volley -50% shots = 40% weaker. I c what you did there, warrior fanboy.

nononono

Less arrows for same damage.

Now also with 50% more QQ.

OMG. DIS SKILL HITS FOR 3k/ARROW. OMG OP OP OP NUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURF.

Chrispy.5641:

Prysin.8542:

People seem to forget that you do have to build around LB for RF to be strong. If running say, clerics or PVT, RF will max out at 5k to a glassy target 3, 2k to a heavy target. If i compare that to other bursty skills, such as Final Thrust for Warriors, Lich Form auto for necros, Big ol bomb for engi or heartseeker for thief, then RF is perfectly in line, even slightly weaker then some of these.

LB or rather rapid fire, still require 6 points into a single trait line along with armor and trinkets witb DPS stars, just in order to obtain good damage.

CONCLUSION: Longbow, including rapid fire, is well balanced in terms of counters, weaknesses, investment and versatility.
It is a devastating one-trick-pony, that is all. No more, no less.

It used to be on the forums that people were talking about Signet of the Wild + Signet of the Hunt + Maul, and you could throw away a few other skills in there too like Mighty Roar and Beastmaster’s Might, Air/Fire Sigils, etc. to get a 15K+ Maul. That’s a One-Trick-Pony!

I think its time for people to stop using that phrase improperly and call Rapid fire for what it is. It is a burst skill that at least 50% of all other weapons have, and it is definitely not the weakest one by a wide margin.

To elaborate: People ONLY cry about the glasscannon damage of the skill. Everyone recognizes that FULL ZERK 66xxx is “da kitten”. And that it is something to be afraid of.
People ONLY cry about the 15k from 1800 range. They do not cry about the skill, its the DAMAGE POTENTIAL.

Now, sure other weapons have that potential. Axe offhand, GS (GS has 2 if counting counterattack kick which has very high base damage), Spear Counterattack, Harpoon #4 (that thing is like underwater heartseeker with 1800 range)

Now to obtain what people complain about, namely 15k damage @ 1800 range, you NEED to build for it. YOU MUST dedicate your build for it.
Just raising your power stat to 2.6k will not produce that damage unless you have several +% traits/runes/sigils working in your favor.

This is a fact, undeniably so.

If rapid fire did 10k untraited, at base damage, in a PVT build, then it would be OP (lookin at you eviscerate warrior). But as a matter of fact, without building for glass, it is nearly WORTHLESS (actually ever so slightly weaker then maul in many cases).

People do not get this. People seem to only understand “this is what it does to me all the time”. They do not understand that “people build for DPS because people like big numbers”.

Either way – RF is fine, +% boosters is fine, the range is fine.

There is counterplay to the skill. And to summarize them (once again), i will list them in their entirety:

Counters to Rapid Fire:

1. - ALL block skills
2. - ALL reflect skills (will most likely kill the ranger)
3. - ALL Evade/Dodge/Distortion effects
4. - ALL Invulnerabilities, including warrior stances, mist/vapor form, Signet of Stone, Protect Me, Renewed Focus, Distortion, Blur, Elixir of Heroes, Elixir S and Obsidian Flesh and other similar skills/traits.
5. - ALL interrupt Skills
6. - ALL objects between you and the ranger!
7. - Retaliation (perhaps not a real counter, but ranger will lose 75% of HP to it, so yeah, its up there)
8. - Instant Gap Closers
9. - Running/walking/teleporting behind the ranger.
10. - Killing the Ranger (this one is especially effective)
11. - Making up a combat strategy in the event of sneaky rangers (quite effective, but not a guaranty for survival)

And there you go, 11 VIABLE counters to Rapid Fire. Most, if not all the options, are available to all professions in almost all builds.

There you go. you can thank me later.

Gamgee.8612:

Atherakhia.4086:

The Ranger class already has significant issue with placement and disengaging. Especially on a power build with longbow. On top of that, it already has 1 stationary skill. A second isn’t realistic. Unless of course we’re talking about a 45% damage increase to compare it to hundred blades?

Talking about WvW here.

Rapid Fire is 1200-1500 range. Hundred Blades is melee range. You can just take one step backwards and it’s gone.

Rapid fire is no doubt the most powerful skill on the longbow. Make it stationary and let the other skills be mobile then, idc. Why do people want to make a class as easy as possible?

have you played a ranger before?
Do you know what happens when it faces an opponent with an equal amount of braincells?

please, let me tell you.

IT
DIES
the end.

Everyone is talking about how much damage Rapid Fire does. As far as I have been able to see in game it is doing the same or just a little bit less damage than before the patch. It just does it a little faster and recharge is the same as before. My point is why is everyone so up in arms about Rapid Fire? The damage is more likely coming from Signet of the Wild. It has a long cool down so is it that big of a deal?

Because prior the daamge was on par with the Ranger’s standard damage. Now the damage is relevent. Whether or not the Ranger will be is still up for debate.

Prysin.8542:

…snip da long post…..

That’s a nice long post, but all of it is irrelevant to what I said. Rapid Fire is not a One-Trick-Pony. It’s on a 10(8) second cooldown, though most of the counters to that you attempted to describe to me are on longer cooldowns. So….what, does that make those skills like Quarter-Trick-Ponies? And that would mean that GS Maul+Signets is like a Penny-Trick-Pony, so that would make everything in the game a Trick-Pony of some sorts….That’s way too many ponies dude….

((Also…..

9. This one’s not true. If you stop moving, Rapid Fire will track through pretty much anything. The only thing it wont track through is if you teleport directly behind them, or run/walk straight through them. But, if you want to eat 3/4 of Rapid Fire’s damage just to run straight through the Ranger, forcing the the rest of skill to cancel and go on cool down, and seriously call that a counter, that’s your own thing….though even then, I’ve seen Rapid Fire sometimes track through that as well. So long as you’re not holding down the right mouse button, your character will almost always change directions and any channel skill will track the movement of the target.))

Chrispy.5641:

Prysin.8542:

…snip da long post…..

That’s a nice long post, but all of it is irrelevant to what I said. Rapid Fire is not a One-Trick-Pony. It’s on a 10(8) second cooldown, though most of the counters to that you attempted to describe to me are on longer cooldowns. So….what, does that make those skills like Quarter-Trick-Ponies? And that would mean that GS Maul+Signets is like a Penny-Trick-Pony, so that would make everything in the game a Trick-Pony of some sorts….That’s way too many ponies dude….

Rapid Fire, without a full zerker gear set, aggressive (and thus defenseless) trait set up, and usage of at least 1 signet CD (at least 48+ seconds between use), does meaningless damage.

That is why it is a “one trick pony”. There are no rangers bursting people to death every 10 seconds. They have to set themselves up for a specific combination of things to get a heavy burst, after which they are a completely powerless free kill.

Longbow is possibly the most trait-able weapon in the game. Not only that, it’s also one of the most expensive weapons to trait.

Longbow traits:

• Master in Marksmanship (Piercing Arrows or Eagle Eye)
• Grandmaster in Marksmanship (Remorseless or Read the Wind or Predator’s Onslaught)
• Master in Skirmishing (Quick Draw)

That’s 50 trait points just to grab 3 longbow traits. And even then you can’t have them all.
Getting a Grandmaster trait in another line is out of the question, unless you give up some of the longbow traits.

Compare it to Mesmer greatsword:

• baseline Read the Wind (it instant-hits)
• immune to projectile reflect/block/destroy

Compare it to Warrior Rifle:

• baseline Read the Wind (it almost instant-hits)
• Adept trait to make it piercing + lower cooldown (10 points investment instead of 40)

If a Ranger compeltely builds for Longbow, he’s making huge investments at the cost of everything else in his build, including his 2nd weaponset. Rapid Fire is literally the only thing you have to worry about from such a build.

As someone who plays such a Ranger, I’ve taken out many opposing Rangers who were trying to burst me with Rapid Fire. if I can deal with it on my glasscannon Ranger, then so should everyone.

I’d rather take a rollback to the old version than a change like you suggested. With a rollback I could slot Quickening Zephyr again and at least keep my burst. That’s right, the burst isn’t even new, it’s just more frequent and less of an investment.

Chrispy.5641:

Prysin.8542:

…snip da long post…..

That’s a nice long post, but all of it is irrelevant to what I said. Rapid Fire is not a One-Trick-Pony. It’s on a 10(8) second cooldown, though most of the counters to that you attempted to describe to me are on longer cooldowns. So….what, does that make those skills like Quarter-Trick-Ponies? And that would mean that GS Maul+Signets is like a Penny-Trick-Pony, so that would make everything in the game a Trick-Pony of some sorts….That’s way too many ponies dude….

((Also…..

9. This one’s not true. If you stop moving, Rapid Fire will track through pretty much anything. The only thing it wont track through is if you teleport directly behind them, or run/walk straight through them. But, if you want to eat 3/4 of Rapid Fire’s damage just to run straight through the Ranger, forcing the the rest of skill to cancel and go on cool down, and seriously call that a counter, that’s your own thing….though even then, I’ve seen Rapid Fire sometimes track through that as well. So long as you’re not holding down the right mouse button, your character will almost always change directions and any channel skill will track the movement of the target.))

hey Crispy – do you know what happens to a channeled skill when you instantly teleport close?

Unless you teleport in the exact same angle was the ranger was firing, the skill will miss you for the duration of teleport frames (and in the event of lag, even more so). But most importantly, the skill will easily channel 1-2 arrows at previous location. Causing ranger DPS to drop.

Wanna contest this?

Go roll an ele and use lightning flash to move to the side of the ranger. Doesnt need to be too much to the side either.

The RF change actually makes it easier to evade almost all of the burst, the channel is that short now.

Also, it’s less viable as a stealth tracker.

Obsidian.1328:

The RF change actually makes it easier to evade almost all of the burst, the channel is that short now.

Also, it’s less viable as a stealth tracker.

Which is kinda ok, since it will most likely decimate a thief prior to actually entering stealth.

Didn’t read, RF is not OP it doesn’t need a change, and no I don’t play with a longbow.

Prysin.8542:

Chrispy.5641:

Prysin.8542:

…snip da long post…..

That’s a nice long post, but all of it is irrelevant to what I said. Rapid Fire is not a One-Trick-Pony. It’s on a 10(8) second cooldown, though most of the counters to that you attempted to describe to me are on longer cooldowns. So….what, does that make those skills like Quarter-Trick-Ponies? And that would mean that GS Maul+Signets is like a Penny-Trick-Pony, so that would make everything in the game a Trick-Pony of some sorts….That’s way too many ponies dude….

((Also…..

9. This one’s not true. If you stop moving, Rapid Fire will track through pretty much anything. The only thing it wont track through is if you teleport directly behind them, or run/walk straight through them. But, if you want to eat 3/4 of Rapid Fire’s damage just to run straight through the Ranger, forcing the the rest of skill to cancel and go on cool down, and seriously call that a counter, that’s your own thing….though even then, I’ve seen Rapid Fire sometimes track through that as well. So long as you’re not holding down the right mouse button, your character will almost always change directions and any channel skill will track the movement of the target.))

hey Crispy – do you know what happens to a channeled skill when you instantly teleport close?

Unless you teleport in the exact same angle was the ranger was firing, the skill will miss you for the duration of teleport frames (and in the event of lag, even more so). But most importantly, the skill will easily channel 1-2 arrows at previous location. Causing ranger DPS to drop.

Wanna contest this?

Go roll an ele and use lightning flash to move to the side of the ranger. Doesnt need to be too much to the side either.

Who is this Crispy you’re talking to?

…..So, you call avoiding damage from a whole 2-3 arrows a Counter? I suppose it could be, since I can deal 1.5K criticals on individual arrows in Rapid Fire (without Signet of the Wild), so you avoided 4.5K out of 15K damage? Like I said, if you really want to call that counter and call it a day, go for it.

If SotW is used then the burst CD is 48-60s and not 8-10.

Prysin.8542:

Obsidian.1328:

The RF change actually makes it easier to evade almost all of the burst, the channel is that short now.

Also, it’s less viable as a stealth tracker.

Which is kinda ok, since it will most likely decimate a thief prior to actually entering stealth.

Unless they evade it. Since nerfing stealth, thieves have a ton of evades nowadays.