Guild Wars 2

Dagger 4 ability without offhand training is 1-1/4 second evade….

Equip Offhand training, it becomes a 1/2 second evade..

This is not in the patch…I take it you intended for it to be a 1/2 second evade as well…

Not cool..

is that the same for other evade skills (GS1 and sword3) when traited? (cant log-in at the moment)

Sounds more like a bug than a nerf. The trait is supposed to improve the skill, not weaken it.

Its not a nerf more of a balance. If you notice the Range of Dagger 4 increases when you equip offhand Training. Try removing off hand then equipping it again and you will see the difference on how far it reaches.

i though that casting time on evasive skill is good thing… because evade works for all casting time – or maybe I just misunderstood what author of thread wanted to say (1/2 sec. evade for me is better than 1/4 second one – unless author meant 1 and 1/4 second evade – but in this case writing 1-1/4 is not one-way-readable)

I reported it in game, but Offhand mastery isn’t functioning appropriately with the offhand dagger at all. As soon as you enter combat, that range of dagger 5 goes back from 1200 to 900, and then that issue you mentioned with dagger 4.

Yes but now, even with offhand training, and without it, in the mist and regular, the evade time still says 1/2s

I posted on the bugs with you and reported it, so I guess maybe wait to see if there’s a response. I know for certain that the dagger 5 is screwed up, and I noticed the tooltip change on dagger 4 as well.

So it’s probably an undocumented change. However, did anybody ever test to document how long the evade was pre-update? Just a thought.

That’s why I can only say that I’ve noticed the tooltip change. However, I can say for a fact that offhand training is not working at all with dagger 5. I’m not sure how updating for Dragon Bash breaks weapon skills, so it would be nice to finally get a dev response for one of the bugs that are inflicted.

My guildy says, when I link Stalker’s strike, the tooltip says 1 1/4s for him, so idk wtf is going on lol

let me ask you guys that run that trait something..with the range increasing to 450 or whatever it is..does it work as a viable gap closer? I am really loving my ranger with my Condi-gen313 build but an extra gap closer that i dont have to spin 180 for would be super.

I usually use it as a gap closer to avoid damage as well

Furajir.3815:

Yes but now, even with offhand training, and without it, in the mist and regular, the evade time still says 1/2s

rofl..

And yet…They still haven’t come to these forums and said anything, nor have they bloody posted it in the patch notes.

WTF is wrong with them

hmm…
as for me that is bug – if you read last patch notes they were repairing that trait for axes – and seems that, accidentally they make it unworking for dagger.
simple – report and wait for patch that will repait that.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

hmm…
as for me that is bug – if you read last patch notes they were repairing that trait for axes – and seems that, accidentally they make it unworking for dagger.
simple – report and wait for patch that will repait that.

Already reported it, but I don’t trust them at all..

Anet has a history of screwing the Ranger over with Undocumented nerfs.

QZ/SB is a prime example of that… Undocumented nerf followed by them saying they intended it.

which part with quickening zephyr was a “hidden nerf”? shorter cd, making it stunbreaker, cutting negative effect from no healing to 50% healing, or making it duration longer?
(or maybe You are talking about quickness nerf – but that was very loud patch notes point :P)
and with sb…
If You mean milisecond longer autoatack casts – also was in patch notes – I’ve seen it there :P
anyway if that shorter evade is problem – make what rangers always have to do – adopt to situation :P but if somebody ask me – that’s a bug and they will repair it in next patch (or next next if next is to little time to fix that one)

QZ + SB nerf if I recall wasn’t in the patch notes….We brought it up then Jon came in here and was like “Oh we intended that, enjoy”

Basically gutted those two abilities together, Now with the “current” changes to QZ, you’d be a fool to use it with SB, as its basically just giving yourself a negative 50% heal debuff for a couple seconds… as it will not do anything remotely to sb fire rate.

edit

Went back and looked, yet it was in the notes, though from what I recall it was greater then they stated in the notes and it just broke the ability all together with QZ.

Let’s not forget the issue with cat’s maul ability. They kept messing with that as well behind the scenes …. Sebrent made a post about it about two months back when cat’s burst suddenly lowered.

“Went back and looked, yet it was in the notes, though from what I recall it was greater then they stated in the notes and it just broke the ability all together with QZ.”

This is a misconception that was further spread by those who failed to test for themselves. Here’s what happened:

The rate of shortbow autoattack fire was decreased (7% if I recall?). This was originally documented as an animation fix and later acknowledged as a nerf.

Several forum posters felt that SB auto during QZ was firing especially slowly and theorized that the combination of SB auto and QZ was broken. They did not back this up with data but nonetheless continued to spread the rumor.

Responsible forum posters disproved those rumors with actual data that verified that the rate of fire under QZ decreased correctly by 7%. They proved there was no additional undocumented nerf.

The masses of this forum failed to look for facts and continued to believe that SB auto + QZ was somehow now broken. For any that still believe this rumor, go test it yourselves before posting speculation.

Just trying to clear things up…

Ralk.7106:

“Went back and looked, yet it was in the notes, though from what I recall it was greater then they stated in the notes and it just broke the ability all together with QZ.”

This is a misconception that was further spread by those who failed to test for themselves. Here’s what happened:

The rate of shortbow autoattack fire was decreased (7% if I recall?). This was originally documented as an animation fix and later acknowledged as a nerf.

Several forum posters felt that SB auto during QZ was firing especially slowly and theorized that the combination of SB auto and QZ was broken. They did not back this up with data but nonetheless continued to spread the rumor.

Responsible forum posters disproved those rumors with actual data that verified that the rate of fire under QZ decreased correctly by 7%. They proved there was no additional undocumented nerf.

The masses of this forum failed to look for facts and continued to believe that SB auto + QZ was somehow now broken. For any that still believe this rumor, go test it yourselves before posting speculation.

Just trying to clear things up…

it was a 7% damage nerf per shot.

I’ve yet to see a post back then of QZ + SB 1 being only a 7% damage nerf as well, Every post back then is backing up as close to a 20% damage nerf.

Unless you have a post I’ve not seen

With the quicker recharge rate it also means an increase in the time where you’re untouchable. Maybe someone saw it as abit “powerful”. But if the nerf was intended, it should have been documented in the patch; and not doing this and not even acknowledging this even after a few days is really irksome.

Sword from Mesmer can do the same thing, only it was 2 seconds duration..so I don’t buy thakittens

the same duration as the Thief Version, which can be spammed.

Xsorus.2507:

it was a 7% damage nerf per shot.

No, it was not a 7% damage nerf per shot. No one anywhere even suggested that the damage decreased. The entire change and controversy was about rate of fire.

Below is an old quote from Anet:

“JonPeters said:
Took a couple of days to get debugging in on this. It is in fact a 40ms difference which equates to about 7% less damage when spamming 1. We made this change because it was creating some animation bugs to leave it where it was. It was also encouraging just spamming 1 which isn’t the most fun gameplay. If our data shows shortly that shortbow is now not effective we can certainly address that, but would do so by improving other skills on that weapon rather than by reintroducing the spam on 1 and the bugs that it was creating.”

Ralk.7106:

Xsorus.2507:

it was a 7% damage nerf per shot.

No, it was not a 7% damage nerf per shot. No one anywhere even suggested that the damage decreased. The entire change and controversy was about rate of fire.

Below is an old quote from Anet:

“JonPeters said:
Took a couple of days to get debugging in on this. It is in fact a 40ms difference which equates to about 7% less damage when spamming 1. We made this change because it was creating some animation bugs to leave it where it was. It was also encouraging just spamming 1 which isn’t the most fun gameplay. If our data shows shortly that shortbow is now not effective we can certainly address that, but would do so by improving other skills on that weapon rather than by reintroducing the spam on 1 and the bugs that it was creating.”

That still doesn’t take into account that the damage gets nerfed more than 7% when using quickness.

Unless I’m missing something, if damage is nerfed 7% through rate of fire reduction outside of quickness, and quickness was a 100% attack speed increase, it would mean that damage while under quickness gets nerfed 14% from what is was before under quickness.

Then you would have to do some math to figure out how much quickness you could obtain in a minute, then convert it to down to seconds, then factor it in to some more math with the 7% reduction without quickness to get the actual DPS percentage reduction, if we’re talking about overall potential DPS.

The point is, it’s a little sneaky just saying something like it’s a flat 7% damage reduction.

How can you say 7% less damage without a timeframe reference?

Is it over 100 shots or 1000 shots?

Or 1 shot?

But what Jon Peters said had only to do with Shortbow, and no talents taken into account, and certainly had nothing to do with QZ.

the only thing that connects SB with any quickness and can be recalled here is when they fixed some bug that caused SB Auto-Atack break themself when on quickness.
some person I assume never noticed that by the while sb auto on quickness have half of its animation and didn’t hit anything (and though that they were shoting so quickly)
and when that was fixed, the only thing that those ppl noticed that they are no longer shoting so quick that computer don’t render the half of shot animation and started to raging that was hidden nerf.
end of story.
as for now jcbroe is behaving as those ppl.
I only ask – before You’ll start raging (All of You) test things that You think was hidden nerfed – if in this case Things are weker that it used to be report a bug. and start raging only when ANet admit that wasn’t a bug and was intended.
eot for me

I use SB with QZ in dungeons and it seems to burst just fine. If anyone sees a bug please report it through the bug report system and post a note here of your findings.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the only thing that connects SB with any quickness and can be recalled here is when they fixed some bug that caused SB Auto-Atack break themself when on quickness.
some person I assume never noticed that by the while sb auto on quickness have half of its animation and didn’t hit anything (and though that they were shoting so quickly)
and when that was fixed, the only thing that those ppl noticed that they are no longer shoting so quick that computer don’t render the half of shot animation and started to raging that was hidden nerf.
end of story.
as for now jcbroe is behaving as those ppl.
I only ask – before You’ll start raging (All of You) test things that You think was hidden nerfed – if in this case Things are weker that it used to be report a bug. and start raging only when ANet admit that wasn’t a bug and was intended.
eot for me

Ummm, my shots hit with QZ back then…I don’t know what you’re talking about..

that was a huge form of our burst, running up someone, popping QZ, and unloading in their face with SB1.

When they ended up doing the “animation” fix, it was very very noticeable….

Xsorus.2507:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the only thing that connects SB with any quickness and can be recalled here is when they fixed some bug that caused SB Auto-Atack break themself when on quickness.
some person I assume never noticed that by the while sb auto on quickness have half of its animation and didn’t hit anything (and though that they were shoting so quickly)
and when that was fixed, the only thing that those ppl noticed that they are no longer shoting so quick that computer don’t render the half of shot animation and started to raging that was hidden nerf.
end of story.
as for now jcbroe is behaving as those ppl.
I only ask – before You’ll start raging (All of You) test things that You think was hidden nerfed – if in this case Things are weker that it used to be report a bug. and start raging only when ANet admit that wasn’t a bug and was intended.
eot for me

Ummm, my shots hit with QZ back then…I don’t know what you’re talking about..

that was a huge form of our burst, running up someone, popping QZ, and unloading in their face with SB1.

When they ended up doing the “animation” fix, it was very very noticeable….

It’s okay, he’s just a troll. Notice how he called me out on something that didn’t make sense, with no understanding of what has been actually said, or realizing I haven’t even been participating in the shortbow nerf conversation? It’s okay dude, don’t waste your time and use it to keep making movies or having intelligent discussions.

@Chopps; you’re right, the shortbow fires the correct amount of arrows within the duration of quickness, there is nothing broken about that aspect of it. It’s more a psychological issue than anything else, the shortbow fired so fast before the 2 updates (shortbow fire rate reduction and quickness nerf) that the feel on the shortbow quickness just doesn’t “feel” correct anymore.

But I can’t get the number of arrows to be different than what they should be, so I’ll assume it’s just psychology after getting used to the old feel of the weapon.

I posted this to the wrong thread earlier…sorry:

There is something odd with the Dagger 4 skill. I see the 1/2 evade when I have offhand training equipped, like Xsorus says. But then I do this:
1) enter WvW zone
2)enter combat with a skill other than dagger 4.
3) examine tooltip for dagger 4 WHILE IN COMBAT
4) note it says 1 1/4 second evade
5) leave combat
6) note it says once again 1/2 second evade

This is with the Offhand training trait equipped. Can anyone else verify this?

jcbroe.4329:

Xsorus.2507:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the only thing that connects SB with any quickness and can be recalled here is when they fixed some bug that caused SB Auto-Atack break themself when on quickness.
some person I assume never noticed that by the while sb auto on quickness have half of its animation and didn’t hit anything (and though that they were shoting so quickly)
and when that was fixed, the only thing that those ppl noticed that they are no longer shoting so quick that computer don’t render the half of shot animation and started to raging that was hidden nerf.
end of story.
as for now jcbroe is behaving as those ppl.
I only ask – before You’ll start raging (All of You) test things that You think was hidden nerfed – if in this case Things are weker that it used to be report a bug. and start raging only when ANet admit that wasn’t a bug and was intended.
eot for me

Ummm, my shots hit with QZ back then…I don’t know what you’re talking about..

that was a huge form of our burst, running up someone, popping QZ, and unloading in their face with SB1.

When they ended up doing the “animation” fix, it was very very noticeable….

It’s okay, he’s just a troll. Notice how he called me out on something that didn’t make sense, with no understanding of what has been actually said, or realizing I haven’t even been participating in the shortbow nerf conversation? It’s okay dude, don’t waste your time and use it to keep making movies or having intelligent discussions.

@Chopps; you’re right, the shortbow fires the correct amount of arrows within the duration of quickness, there is nothing broken about that aspect of it. It’s more a psychological issue than anything else, the shortbow fired so fast before the 2 updates (shortbow fire rate reduction and quickness nerf) that the feel on the shortbow quickness just doesn’t “feel” correct anymore.

But I can’t get the number of arrows to be different than what they should be, so I’ll assume it’s just psychology after getting used to the old feel of the weapon.

It’s okay You can make it very hard to believe but I’m not the troll, If I called somebody to something I could be propably using “quote” option as now.
the last part of Your post is that what I tried to say and thats quoted history of sb auto breaking themselve.. that was from patch notes and my experience (before mentioned patch I had rendered only half if not less of shoting animation when using sb with quickness)
If I called somebody to something without using quotes and that could make a little no sense it’s propably thing that in this forum I have sometimes (for example when tired) problems with find who was talking in this post (I already had a problems on other forums hen two persons was using similar tone I answered to for example second thinking that I answer to that first)
also sometimes I have o problem that things I am talking (writing in that case) are sometimes (sometimes often) interpreted by ppl in a whole way that I didn’t ever had idea it could be interpreted.

peace

Lord Trejgon.2809:

jcbroe.4329:

Xsorus.2507:

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the only thing that connects SB with any quickness and can be recalled here is when they fixed some bug that caused SB Auto-Atack break themself when on quickness.
some person I assume never noticed that by the while sb auto on quickness have half of its animation and didn’t hit anything (and though that they were shoting so quickly)
and when that was fixed, the only thing that those ppl noticed that they are no longer shoting so quick that computer don’t render the half of shot animation and started to raging that was hidden nerf.
end of story.
as for now jcbroe is behaving as those ppl.
I only ask – before You’ll start raging (All of You) test things that You think was hidden nerfed – if in this case Things are weker that it used to be report a bug. and start raging only when ANet admit that wasn’t a bug and was intended.
eot for me

Ummm, my shots hit with QZ back then…I don’t know what you’re talking about..

that was a huge form of our burst, running up someone, popping QZ, and unloading in their face with SB1.

When they ended up doing the “animation” fix, it was very very noticeable….

It’s okay, he’s just a troll. Notice how he called me out on something that didn’t make sense, with no understanding of what has been actually said, or realizing I haven’t even been participating in the shortbow nerf conversation? It’s okay dude, don’t waste your time and use it to keep making movies or having intelligent discussions.

@Chopps; you’re right, the shortbow fires the correct amount of arrows within the duration of quickness, there is nothing broken about that aspect of it. It’s more a psychological issue than anything else, the shortbow fired so fast before the 2 updates (shortbow fire rate reduction and quickness nerf) that the feel on the shortbow quickness just doesn’t “feel” correct anymore.

But I can’t get the number of arrows to be different than what they should be, so I’ll assume it’s just psychology after getting used to the old feel of the weapon.

It’s okay You can make it very hard to believe but I’m not the troll, If I called somebody to something I could be propably using “quote” option as now.
the last part of Your post is that what I tried to say and thats quoted history of sb auto breaking themselve.. that was from patch notes and my experience (before mentioned patch I had rendered only half if not less of shoting animation when using sb with quickness)
If I called somebody to something without using quotes and that could make a little no sense it’s propably thing that in this forum I have sometimes (for example when tired) problems with find who was talking in this post (I already had a problems on other forums hen two persons was using similar tone I answered to for example second thinking that I answer to that first)
also sometimes I have o problem that things I am talking (writing in that case) are sometimes (sometimes often) interpreted by ppl in a whole way that I didn’t ever had idea it could be interpreted.

peace

You called me out on a discussion I wasn’t even having was the point I was making. I never said anything about the history of the shortbow. I only said that a 7% overall damage nerf under a 100% attack speed boost is a 14% damage nerf while affected by quickness, as compared to how it was before the change, and then I asked for verification in case that wasn’t accurate.
In math form.
Prenerf shortbow:
no quickness: 100% damage output.
quickness: 200% damage output (quickness doubled attack speed. 100*2=200)
Nerfed shortbow:
no quickness: 100% – 7%=93%
quickness: (100% – 7%) * 2=93 * 2 = 186%

Prenerf 200% minus nerfed 186% equals a 14% loss in damage output while under the effects of quickness.

For the heck of it (note the percentages I use will be the same as above, but will be arbitrary because they don’t represent an actual numerical value, they are just a placeholder to be able to see a numerical difference):
Possible total quickness at a single moment, only done once per minute: 6s (QZ was 4s and pet swap was 2s).

For all purposes shortbow is shooting twice per second: 54s (no quickness) * 200% (2 shots per second) = 10800%
6s of quickness: 400% (200% * 2) * 6 = 2400
2400+10800= 13200%

After nerf: 54s * 186% = 10044
6s of quickness: 6s * 372%(186 * 2) = 2232
10044 + 2232=12276%

13200 – 12276=924% damage difference per minute.
per second its:
13200 / 60 = 220
12276 / 60 = 204.6
220 – 204.6 = 15.4

15.4% DPS difference when prenerf quickness was factored in.

Again, I’m not mathematician (never claimed to be one, I’m a compu sci guy), so correct me anywhere if this is wrong somebody, but I thought it to be a pretty cut and dry representation that shows a clear method used and result gained.

jcbroe.4329:

I only said that a 7% overall damage nerf under a 100% attack speed boost is a 14% damage nerf while affected by quickness, as compared to how it was before the change, and then I asked for verification in case that wasn’t accurate.
In math form.
Prenerf shortbow:
no quickness: 100% damage output.
quickness: 200% damage output (quickness doubled attack speed. 100*2=200)
Nerfed shortbow:
no quickness: 100% – 7%=93%
quickness: (100% – 7%) * 2=93 * 2 = 186%

Prenerf 200% minus nerfed 186% equals a 14% loss in damage output while under the effects of quickness.

Here’s the problem with your math.

Assume original damage was 100. With quickness 200.

After the 7% nerf it was 93. With quickness 186.

So without quickness there was a 7% drop (93 instead of 100).

With quickness there was also a 7% drop ((200-186)/200*100=7%).

While the numerical amount of lost damage doubles when you apply quickness, the percentage drop (7%) is the same across the board.

archied.6180:

jcbroe.4329:

I only said that a 7% overall damage nerf under a 100% attack speed boost is a 14% damage nerf while affected by quickness, as compared to how it was before the change, and then I asked for verification in case that wasn’t accurate.
In math form.
Prenerf shortbow:
no quickness: 100% damage output.
quickness: 200% damage output (quickness doubled attack speed. 100*2=200)
Nerfed shortbow:
no quickness: 100% – 7%=93%
quickness: (100% – 7%) * 2=93 * 2 = 186%

Prenerf 200% minus nerfed 186% equals a 14% loss in damage output while under the effects of quickness.

Here’s the problem with your math.

Assume original damage was 100. With quickness 200.

After the 7% nerf it was 93. With quickness 186.

So without quickness there was a 7% drop (93 instead of 100).

With quickness there was also a 7% drop ((200-186)/200*100=7%).

While the numerical amount of lost damage doubles when you apply quickness, the percentage drop (7%) is the same across the board.

Ah, okay, that makes total sense. I figured I was missing something, thank you. This is why I don’t do statistics for a living lol, I oversimplified it.

The damage of the shots did not change, it was the rate at which the shots happened

can we get back to the daggers? so is the daggers really nerfed? or is it just a typo when you’re out of combat? or maybe an accidental slip in the patch thats suggesting future nerfs to ranger evades across the board? (GS auto, sword2 & 3, dagger4, shortbow4)? Devs? Hello?

Edit: nvm just saw the devs post on the other thread

@jcbroe Ah ok. Yes you called about that 7% nerf but somehow my tired brain fixed it with all the “sb quickness nerf” or something andd bring out all the sb as you called “nerfing” history to tell that mostly was that 40ms loss on RoF and rest was just psychological issue of player.

about statistics – statistics lie but it makes it so believable….
anyway something with percentages in game is not right.
if I had 50% crit chance so statistically I should make crit every second hit. Teoretically.
but I wakittenting crit more rarely than every 4 hit.
is something I missed in this? anybody could explain me what isn’t working how it seems to have?
(btw. spirits 35% chance to apply for example burning, would statistically apply it in every 3 hit. but when I counted things (I was very bored :P) it applied it every forth instead – interesting thing isn’t it?)

PS. I’m also more informatist(or whatever it’s called) than mathematist

I always thought 1¼ second lasting evade (immunity) with a 10 seconds CD (potential of 8s) was a little bit too much for a weapon skill (yes, same with Blurred Frenzy). It’s not that Sword/Dagger Rangers are struggling mitigation-wise right now, especially with all that disengage potential coupled with the evades. If they improve the pathing, I consider this a positive change overall.
If this is the start of tunning down highly on demand invulnerabilities as a whole, it’s a good sign. All these skills are too ‘mistake’ friendly in terms of opportunity cost, as they call it, they make counterplays a joke and becouse of these, everything all of a sudden bocomes a DPS race with no depth. We need more clutch and chess like gamplay in this game.

*raises up shield to resist forum warriors
*puts on flamesuit as well

why you get nerfed ?

only 2 people at A-net doing balance of classes.

one playing thief, one playing mesmer.
and i dont make it up.. its actually true.

so only thief and mesmer are allowed to be op.
i thought we all already knew this.

JonPeters.5630:

Thanks for the report. I have fixed this on our development environment and it should be in the next patch ~10 days.

Jon Peters replied on the other thread about this.

@Khenzy that evades in some cases are only thing that let the ranger win (if was skilled) when outnumbered. and imo that’s good thing – great balanse is when always player’s skill>>everything else (such as number’s or classes)