Balance updates and community morale
My opinions here.
They don’t want to make statements about potential changes before they do any kind of testing. What kind of testing is even done prior to implementation is a whole other question. (I’d love to know this)
I think they see it as potential for backlash. The community might see an idea as a promise and there would be uproar in the event that the change wasn’t implemented.
Their task is to create something that is fun, but also balanced. They’d want to distance themselves from the community so that the passion of the players doesn’t influence their design decisions. It can be easy to give a class too much because it would be cool.
Again, my opinion. They might read this and say that I have no idea what I’m talking about. These are just potential reasons to justify a lack of communication.
Edit: I was playing devil’s advocate there. I want beneficial change for ranger as much as anyone.
(edited by Mavander.3208)
Their task is to create something that is fun, but also balanced. They’d want to distance themselves from the community so that the passion of the players doesn’t influence their design decisions. It can be easy to give a class too much because it would be cool.
+1
While I’m not a fan of the word “impossible” it’s definitely not possible to indulge everyone.
I also agree with the OP. Honestly, not sure what to think of the whole matter, but what can you do.
There’s a lot of things that can always be improved, not just for Rangers. Fixes are always needed everywhere and as they say “God works in mysterious ways” (even though I’m no believer this fits) I am inclined to compare it to devs.
Sometimes it boggles the mind why some decisions have been made over others, but on the other hand I’m glad they listen to what we say to some extent (and I hope nothing’s going to change about that, although I have reasons to believe even that depends heavily on us).
Constructive criticism is the key and as long as we keep it in perspective we might achieve good results. I believe, that if we provide the right “why” and “how” they would listen. I mean, why trying to prove you’re almighty when you’re not and there are people with a point, so why not listen?
I have to say I knew games where developers just took one’s money. I really hope it won’t become the same here.
What the pvp forums want, they get.
The last week has been hard proof of that.
Headdesk
Yeah what you’re saying certainly makes sense, it’s just that there are still ways of communicating current agendas while making it clear that there are no promises on the table. It’s the fact that they decide to just keep us in the dark about absolutely everything instead of saying “We’re currently testing these traits/utilities/weapon skills to see if our improvement ideas can work. There are no guaranteed changes on the table for any of these yet, but we’re working on it and we’re aware of the issues. We’ll communicate why or why not certain changes have/haven’t been made in due course.”
What the pvp forums want, they get.
The last week has been hard proof of that.
I understand this, because if you run a game competitively with tournaments for prizes PVP has to be balanced, or close to it. They knew, that if they want to go down that road they will have to listen to players (more).
Think ranger in the same spot as dungeons for the devs now, if they can, they would remove this class from the game, they already realized there is no place for this class to perform and not kittening most other classes’ players off, ranger is a design failure. It is just unlike dungeons which can be ignored, rangers cant, so the best way is to reduce the player number as many as possible so lesser of the player base will have a worse gaming experience. You guys should thanks the dev for all the sub par designs and nerfs on ranger so you guys can wake up and move on to other classes and enjoy the game correctly.
Forty Milliseconds…rangers who remember…know…
What the pvp forums want, they get.
The last week has been hard proof of that.
I understand this, because if you run a game competitively with tournaments for prizes PVP has to be balanced, or close to it. They knew, that if they want to go down that road they will have to listen to players (more).
yeah ok, but usually nerfs are demanded by very casual players…so, shouldn’t they listen to people that reasonably discuss this or that skill or trait, instead that a bunch of people scraming “nerf this/that, it’s tooooooooooooo op!!!!!”
What the pvp forums want, they get.
The last week has been hard proof of that.
I understand this, because if you run a game competitively with tournaments for prizes PVP has to be balanced, or close to it. They knew, that if they want to go down that road they will have to listen to players (more).
So balance = Ranger punching bag
Because heaven forbid Ranger actually be a class worth having skills to keep it competitive. Got to keep one class on the bottom so the other players feel like they’re good.
Every single patch has been another hard nerf to Ranger. With NO reasoning given as to why. Maybe if someone would come and flipping talk to us and tell us WHY they’re making us weaker and weaker we might at least understand their reasoning. Right now all we see are nerf after nerf and changing our skills for no bloody reason. I love my rangers so much I have three of them….but because of how much Anet apparently hates rangers they’re on the shelf until they figure out what they’re going to do.
Ranger Morale is low due to 3 years of them not talking to us or listening to us and all we get are more nerfs beating us lower. It breaks my heart to see a class I love hated so much by everyone.
Can I ask something? I have been thinking on this subject since HoT release.
Why are there so many reflect skills? I mean reflect means you are immune to projectile damage, whic is the archetypal ranger source (longbow, shortbow).
Reflect is worse than immune to damage skill, because if it is properly applied it can destroy a lb ranger (fast reflexes and properly reading the game needed). And also after the reflect, opponent can use his “immune to damage” skills to bug the hell out of you again.
With new skills and professions, there are more reflects and some invuls in the game. People say rangers skill cap is low, but I object. Rangers skill cap is high if you want to survive the battle, not just pew pew.
Other classes have new computer systems while rangers (especially archers) have a rock, with a computer drawing on it.
What the pvp forums want, they get.
The last week has been hard proof of that.
I understand this, because if you run a game competitively with tournaments for prizes PVP has to be balanced, or close to it. They knew, that if they want to go down that road they will have to listen to players (more).
yeah ok, but usually nerfs are demanded by very casual players…so, shouldn’t they listen to people that reasonably discuss this or that skill or trait, instead that a bunch of people scraming “nerf this/that, it’s tooooooooooooo op!!!!!”
That’s what I meant by saying “sometimes it boggles the mind how decisions are made”. That being said, we may say what we believe to be wrong, but it’s up to them if they want to listen, thus if we want to persuade them to make right choices we have to push by means of constructive, polite and factual criticism and maybe we get to see stuff implemented.
I agree with you, that listening to immature comments makes them look bad for considering nonsense, but that’s how it sadly works sometimes.
We both along with many others may agree on the same thing, but who do you think represents the majority in the world?
What the pvp forums want, they get.
The last week has been hard proof of that.
I learned long ago if I want to know what nerfs are on the way I just visit the PVP forums.
Speaking from a PVE-only point of view…
We both along with many others may agree on the same thing, but who do you think represents the majority in the world?
the fact is: if they want the game to be really a competitive esport, they simply CAN’T listen to the majority of people when balancing classes, but they should listen to the people who actually see the game in the same way and test a lot of build etc etc. Also, the majority are probably pve players only, that only jumps in pvp in very few occasions and don’t want to try to learn how to survive longer.
I’m a casual player too, but I like to pvp too even if I’m not that good but I never cried about other classes when I lost ( games are usually lost because of people not playing as a team) even if there were really op skills/traits here and there given to other classes. Finding viable builds to perform better should be the real fun in pvp. That’s the challenge.
But maybe I should stop doing that and start crying on the forums 24/7 like there’s no tomorrow, asking for devastating nerfs for every other class.
I think Druid is in a good place. LL needed to be adjusted. Not by so much, but it did. Personal morale is very good atm.
Local Charr Ruins Everything
Can I ask something? I have been thinking on this subject since HoT release.
Why are there so many reflect skills? I mean reflect means you are immune to projectile damage, whic is the archetypal ranger source (longbow, shortbow).
Reflect is worse than immune to damage skill, because if it is properly applied it can destroy a lb ranger (fast reflexes and properly reading the game needed). And also after the reflect, opponent can use his “immune to damage” skills to bug the hell out of you again.
With new skills and professions, there are more reflects and some invuls in the game. People say rangers skill cap is low, but I object. Rangers skill cap is high if you want to survive the battle, not just pew pew.
Other classes have new computer systems while rangers (especially archers) have a rock, with a computer drawing on it.
That’s why I swapped my Longbow for my Staff. It’s a fun weapon, no worries about reflect/destroy and it does a constant stream of damage, so very sustained. Longbow does more damage at more range, but it’s more burst and weak to all sorts of things.
Reflect is completely overpowered. Reflect is as if Retaliation returned 100% of the damage and also gave invulnerability.
Can I ask something? I have been thinking on this subject since HoT release.
Why are there so many reflect skills? I mean reflect means you are immune to projectile damage, whic is the archetypal ranger source (longbow, shortbow).
Reflect is worse than immune to damage skill, because if it is properly applied it can destroy a lb ranger (fast reflexes and properly reading the game needed). And also after the reflect, opponent can use his “immune to damage” skills to bug the hell out of you again.
With new skills and professions, there are more reflects and some invuls in the game. People say rangers skill cap is low, but I object. Rangers skill cap is high if you want to survive the battle, not just pew pew.
Other classes have new computer systems while rangers (especially archers) have a rock, with a computer drawing on it.
That’s why I swapped my Longbow for my Staff. It’s a fun weapon, no worries about reflect/destroy and it does a constant stream of damage, so very sustained. Longbow does more damage at more range, but it’s more burst and weak to all sorts of things.
Reflect is completely overpowered. Reflect is as if Retaliation returned 100% of the damage and also gave invulnerability.
Problem is, why play a Ranger with a staff, when you can play a Mesmer with a staff?
I did higher damage, on Ranger, but no one appreciated it and it came at a huge cost.
There is literally no reason for me to play Ranger, other than my sentimental attachment to my (dopey) pets and a preference for bows.
So, I don’t anymore.
They need to look at the classes overall and into the core aspects, utilities and weapons.
Not just try to balance new toys with new toys, while ignoring the either permanently OP, or permanently neglected, class underneath.
Oh and they need to buy a BS meter, so they know when they’re being misled…
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Problem is, why play a Ranger with a staff, when you can play a Mesmer with a staff?
Didn’t you mean Mesmer Greatsword?
Done with this POS game al these devs do is buff the classes they main, that;s the problem with having devs that play the game.
Problem is, why play a Ranger with a staff, when you can play a Mesmer with a staff?
Didn’t you mean Mesmer Greatsword?
No.
IK that is supposed to be better than staff, but staff is OK too.
Mesmer is just far better to play, in general (at least, in EOTM/WvW, which is what I tend to do).
Unless you enjoy a lot of unnecessary stress, which I don’t.
Think ranger in the same spot as dungeons for the devs now, if they can, they would remove this class from the game, they already realized there is no place for this class to perform and not kittening most other classes’ players off, ranger is a design failure. It is just unlike dungeons which can be ignored, rangers cant, so the best way is to reduce the player number as many as possible so lesser of the player base will have a worse gaming experience. You guys should thanks the dev for all the sub par designs and nerfs on ranger so you guys can wake up and move on to other classes and enjoy the game correctly.
There’s things they could pretty easily do, though.
Some non-targeted, stealth utilities, for a start.
It would reduce Ranger damage, if taken (as it would, generally, replace damage increase utilities), but it would make us far more useful.
Also, they should switch Ranger LB knockback to a good disengage (like the Mesmer Staff 2 one).
Far more useful for general defence and would reduce all the Ranger hate.
Because, as we all know, Rangers always get the blame for knockbacks, even if other classes did it…
Also, they could (and should, IMO) get rid of the more damage at long range/less damage at short range nonsense.
It just complicates things, unnecessarily, forces melee weaps onto us (whether we want them, or not) and makes Ranger a positioning nightmare.
Also, Shortbow needs to become far more useful, again.
Almost no one uses it, on Ranger!
Can’t they see that is a major problem?
It would be ridiculous to kill the class, when even just a few, fairly simple changes, would make it a lot more viable, useful and fun.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
Problem is, why play a Ranger with a staff, when you can play a Mesmer with a staff?
Didn’t you mean Mesmer Greatsword?
No.
IK that is supposed to be better than staff, but staff is OK too.
How can you compare Ranger Staff with Mesmer Staff? They’re completely different weapons. Ranger Staff is much more like Mesmer Greatsword.
Problem is, why play a Ranger with a staff, when you can play a Mesmer with a staff?
Didn’t you mean Mesmer Greatsword?
No.
IK that is supposed to be better than staff, but staff is OK too.
How can you compare Ranger Staff with Mesmer Staff? They’re completely different weapons. Ranger Staff is much more like Mesmer Greatsword.
I’m not comparing Ranger staff with Mesmer Staff.
I’m saying, if you like playing a class with a staff, you might as well play a Mesmer.
Rather than just pasting a weirdly inappropriate (IMO) staff onto Ranger.
As Mesmer is just a far more useful, far less stressful, far more enjoyable class to play, in my experience.
This shouldn’t be the case – Ranger should be just as good/useful/fun, it just isn’t.
I’m talking about the core class, here.
Not even going to try Druid and that is kind of my point, too.
Why would I want to play a Druid, when I originally picked a Ranger?
Obviously, some people may disagree with me, here and that’s fine.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
No one’s stopping you from playing Mesmer.
No one’s stopping you from playing Mesmer.
Er…
No, I know.
What’s your point?
My point, is that I would prefer to play Ranger, IF it was as good as other classes.
I like bows and I like pets.
It was my first choice and I played it for the first 6 months of my gametime here, but I am not playing it anymore, because it is severely sub-par.
That is, obviously, a great shame and needs to change.
…and by “change” I don’t mean by just half turning it into another, completely unrelated, class (i.e. Druid).
I mean core Ranger needs to be added to and improved, while retaining its original class identity and flavour.
“Turns out when people play the game, they don’t admire your feet at all.” sephiroth
(edited by Tigaseye.2047)
My opinions here.
Their task is to create something that is fun, but also balanced. They’d want to distance themselves from the community so that the passion of the players doesn’t influence their design decisions. It can be easy to give a class too much because it would be cool.
But they nerf us every time after ppl cry on PvP forums. Is that called “players don’t influence their design decisions?”. Definitely no. The do influence by every single crybaby who just doesn’t want to make something new in order to overcome some problems that Rangers can offer in PvP. So they balance the whole game around that kittenty pvp, seeing their nevertheless poor pvp as a competitive E-sport. But it is not E-sport, cause it is kittenty. And while u try to make it that way u severely damage other game modes, especially PvE which the vast majority of your players actually play.
I’m not comparing Ranger staff with Mesmer Staff.
I’m saying, if you like playing a class with a staff, you might as well play a Mesmer.
Not all Staffs are the same playstyle. Druid Staff is more like Mesmer Greatsword. Scrapper Hammer is a lot like Ranger Greatsword (but better).
It’s about the skills it has, not about the type of weapon it is. The class/skills/traits it’s attached to also matter a lot. I’m enjoying Druid Staff on my Ranger core class. It’s a small step to replace Longbow with Staff. It’s a huge step to completely switch classes where literally everything is different except the word “Staff” on the weapon.
Their task is to create something that is fun, but also balanced. They’d want to distance themselves from the community so that the passion of the players doesn’t influence their design decisions. It can be easy to give a class too much because it would be cool.
+1
While I’m not a fan of the word “impossible” it’s definitely not possible to indulge everyone.I also agree with the OP. Honestly, not sure what to think of the whole matter, but what can you do.
There’s a lot of things that can always be improved, not just for Rangers. Fixes are always needed everywhere and as they say “God works in mysterious ways” (even though I’m no believer this fits) I am inclined to compare it to devs.
Sometimes it boggles the mind why some decisions have been made over others, but on the other hand I’m glad they listen to what we say to some extent (and I hope nothing’s going to change about that, although I have reasons to believe even that depends heavily on us).
Constructive criticism is the key and as long as we keep it in perspective we might achieve good results. I believe, that if we provide the right “why” and “how” they would listen. I mean, why trying to prove you’re almighty when you’re not and there are people with a point, so why not listen?
I have to say I knew games where developers just took one’s money. I really hope it won’t become the same here.
Fun and balanced? WOW that’s a kick in rangers face right there.
Movable spirits, gone.
Throw-able traps, most fun and satisfying balanced thing ever, GONE.
Hide in plains trait – (stealth on hard cc 60 sec) GONE
Off-hand-axe-training- GONE.. moved to one of the worst trait lines ever and nerfed
Druid heal potential – gone
Smokescale on demand utility that would bring diversity to builds- GONE
25% ninja nerf on rapid fire that no1 talks about after trait changes – GONE
Bugged pets that only vissualy display condition damage, and dont apply dmg for real.
Disrespectful pet mechanics for 3.5 years.
HOW is this FUN when ALL FUN is GONE, in matter of HOURS.
PLEASE WAKE UP.
THE ONLY thing that is good change for ranger before HoT, was QUICK DRAW.
ONLY ONE. NONE OTHERS. Take it as bad as it sounds, because this IS ranger current state. We did get HaO change back because we did fight for this changes for weeks.
So sad that we have to go on forums, and prove our points, while this is duty of developers and testing teams.. which i question if we have one at all.
Wish I could get back to GW1.. PvP-GvG. It feels like we are outcasted, not desired or rewarded..
(edited by Firelysm.4967)
No kidding, we are talking about the guys that nerfed SB to make LB more appealing and created Aquaman.
For some reason…the devs fear the pet. Remember the nerfs to pets as someone thought that two ranger’s could duo a dungeon just using their pet? Even though that is the MOST nonsensical and least efficient thing ever….
They nerfed pet leashing because they didn’t want pets holding points on their own. You know…the point of Guard! Not that a pet could ever hope to even begin to hold a point as any small amount of AOE will destroy the thing.
So we get to sit on here and talk to the wall.
Longbow nowadays is utterly crap. Any skilled opponent can kill you in spvp with too much ease. And any clever opponent can kick your kitten in wvw. LB ranger is dead, sacrificed to make druid look and feel better.
I understand this actually. Anet needs to sell the HoT. But I think this is not just for us. I want to play a good ranged Archer. Not mesmer, not magic puking dragon hunter. But it won’t happen now. So back to my other classes.
I just don’t understand why anet seems out to get ranger. I mean they created ranger, we like it despite the major flaws, and for 3 years they beat the hell out of the ranger community. Doesn’t make any sense!
I just don’t understand why anet seems out to get ranger. I mean they created ranger, we like it despite the major flaws, and for 3 years they beat the hell out of the ranger community. Doesn’t make any sense!
Yeah, ikr? Sometimes my tinfoil hat goes on and I think that it must be something sinister going on, like people who play Rangers are likely to be idealists and crushing their souls is required to fuel the bloodstone or something.
My tinfoil hat theory in that regards was that since esports were such a stated focus and balance seems to revolve around them ranger was determined at one point to not be dynamic enough for twitch views. That is there was nothing visually exciting about watching a ranger that screamed skilled dynamic play that leant itself to exciting audiences watching on twitch or whatever. So it simply wasn’t supported or pushed over more dynamic classes like ele and Mesmer. It doesn’t mean that this level of play never happened, just that it wasn’t obvious to interest casual viewers.
Dear rangers you choosed your destiny by buying Hot. You had hopes that you shouldn’ t have had regarding druid.
You didn ’ t learn anything from the last 3 years…
Too bad.
Darkness,
So your answer is what? Just give up and play a different class? So we should ignore an entire class because the Development team cannot be bothered to fix the problems with it? And the Development team should just keep doing the same thing to rangers forever? Because that is what your post is saying. It translates in the following way.
Look I have read other posts of yours regarding ranger. I know you are supportive, but posts like these are pointless. We are on these threads to try and FIX the ranger, not just complain about them.
So your answer is what? Just give up and play a different class? So we should ignore an entire class because the Development team cannot be bothered to fix the problems with it?
Yes, if the class is crap and they keep kittenting on its players then you move to a different class or stop playing the game.
You martyring yourself by sticking to it and complaining on the forums didn’t work over the last 3 years it isn’t going to work now.
I think people are overreacting. Despite the recent nerfs, I feel very very strong on the druid class. Yes the lingering light nerf was bad but:
1. The new smokescale pet is incredible and reliable, I also like the burst and sustain damage on the bristle back even though it takes some positioning to work.
2. The druid self sustain is amazing with staff and CAF.
3. They gave us probably the best might stacking skill in the game. In about 3 seconds I can stack 25 might no problem.
There are lots of other great changes in Druid, but the 3 above are really game breakingingly good.
I think people are overreacting. Despite the recent nerfs, I feel very very strong on the druid class. Yes the lingering light nerf was bad but:
1. The new smokescale pet is incredible and reliable, I also like the burst and sustain damage on the bristle back even though it takes some positioning to work.
2. The druid self sustain is amazing with staff and CAF.
3. They gave us probably the best might stacking skill in the game. In about 3 seconds I can stack 25 might no problem.There are lots of other great changes in Druid, but the 3 above are really game breakingingly good.
Photinous, 2 of the three items on your list are not specific to Druids. Pets and “We Heal as One!” are part of the Ranger base class, not the Druid elite specialization. The pets in particular are the subject of numerous threads and all of them but Tiger suffer from some serious issues. This is off-topic, but other threads go into great detail, with videos and data.
I will also disagree that Druid self-sustain is superior to base Ranger’s. The Wilderness Survival and Nature Mastery trait lines and skills provide superior damage mitigation, access to boons, and instant condition cleansing—all of which are more important in most fights than pure healing, which is highly situational. If you feel very strong because you have invested in defensive specs for Druid, that is another beast entirely.
Your concept of “game-breakingly” good is a serious overstatement. I wouldn’t use that phrase lightly, given Ranger’s history. Other classes have much higher DPS, self-sustain, and might stacking (and might MAINTENANCE, which is just as important) abilities than Ranger/Druid.
To stay on-topic, it is important for the developers to communicate with the player base not only to prevent over-nerfing, but also to prevent introducing overpowered mechanics (such as the original “We Heal as One!”, Smoke Assault, and Lingering Light) that must later be nerfed. This creates ill will between the player base and the developers and makes the developers appear out-of-touch with the game.