Guild Wars 2

No… actually, we’ve talked a lot. Can we actually make them useful/viable? Unless in certain settings, they’re so under-powered and useless that no one uses them. I would love to use them because I think their design is unique, but just can’t muster the strength to waste the slots.

Please anet? Revisit the Ranger spirits and make them viable.

it would help if the spirits could follow you, like back in the old days..

Spirits got really strong at one point in time. I’ve been out of the scene for a bit, so I don’t know what state they’re in now, but I’d guess that the reason they aren’t optimal right now is how passively strong they used to be.

Beezlebub.1538:

No… actually, we’ve talked a lot. Can we actually make them useful/viable? Unless in certain settings, they’re so under-powered and useless that no one uses them. I would love to use them because I think their design is unique, but just can’t muster the strength to waste the slots.

Please anet? Revisit the Ranger spirits and make them viable.

Reduce cd to 20-25s.
Remove wonky icd on percentages.
Make them follow again.
Add stunbreak on stone spirit, give percentage to bleed and protection only on traits.
Storm spirit gives 5% crit chance for 5 allies. Permanent.
Ice spirit gives 10% dmg boost to 5 allies. . Permanent.
Fire and stone spirit gives 10% chance on hit to inflict burn/bleed.

Improve Aoe range slightly.

Indeed they are pretty unique and utterly useless at the moment. They need a buff, starting with the ability to move.

Oolune.4357:

Spirits got really strong at one point in time. I’ve been out of the scene for a bit, so I don’t know what state they’re in now, but I’d guess that the reason they aren’t optimal right now is how passively strong they used to be.

You hit the nail on the head there with “used to be”. With the release of HoT and the elite specialisations I think we could afford to revert spirits back to their strongest without having too much of a negative impact on the meta.

If nothing else, it would give us another build to use in WvW other than having to run Shouts, or Traps.

Return of Spirits Unbound as a trait in Nature Magic would be a decent start. Though, if it were to return, it might come at a cost.

If they do that, I hope we don’t lose Nature’s Vengeance for it. As it is, I can make them work in fractals pretty well where the fights tend to stay in one location, and same for dungeons. they don’t work for roaming and the more mobile map meta events, but they do work for dungeons/fractals.

bearshaman.3421:

If they do that, I hope we don’t lose Nature’s Vengeance for it.

I doubt we would lose Nature’s Vengeance. One outcome that could happen is that they would have Spirits Unbound as a GM trait so players would have to make a decisive choice between strong, on-point support or mobile support at the cost of additional boons.

In that case, other traits would either be moved or merged so Protective Ward or Invigorating Bond can be placed in another tier or traitline to make room for it.

They can replace Vigorous training for Spirits Unbound. If abet wants the ranger to evade more they need to design the trait to fill up the vigor. Vigor regen is not good enough for a master trait. As a minor it could be thou.

Although I agree with you Wond. They could do that, we are not strangers to the nonsense over nerfs the Devs decide to do sometimes (S&R CD and range… ).

Unfortunately if they do something like that would be pushing the changes to be useless waste of time, same as happened to the shout Search and rescue.
Hours wasted defining that skill that an no sensible overnerf destroyed completely.

Ranger and Druid are a classes were the strategy of when to use your skills are really defined and delicately balanced as a watch’s cogs.
To make you choose an spirit over your actual skills those spirits should bring something the other skills don’t.

Glad that so far we’re all in agreement that spirits need to be reworked (again). Personally, I’d like them to function like warrior banners in the sense that they’re intangible. They are, after all, spirits… therefore, apparitions not of this dimension. Right?

Anet gutted spirits so they could give a better version of boon farting to Herald.

For something stationary and with a HP, they need to be way stronger, but they are pretty bad. Raid people inc. and talking about how frost and sun is used in raids. Yeah, because you know, raids is one specific thing.

they’re ok as is for raids, dungeons and fractals other than their actives. all the spirit actives are useless other than Nature and that the CD of that is so long I rarely even use it. Besides killing off the spirit for a weak active sucks.

bringing back mobile spirits would turn us into revs and i doubt anet would want/allow that. Besides with the amount of boon corrupt around it would actually be better if there functions where changed to be more like the frost passive where they can apply an un-corruptible boost to damage/healing/damage reduction or something.

Natures Vengeance is bad.

I’d actually be quite happy to have them remain as stationary only effects if they had a little something extra or a different functionality added, but it does feel like something needs to be changed with them.

The toggle should be to make the spirits follow or stay, take out the active effect and leave the passive as is, plus make the GM trait just baseline for spirits (without needing the trait). Make the healing spirit/Ultimate spirit scale with healing power.

Well in fact the only thing that made spirit “strong” was the fact that traited with nature’s revenge it was possible to spike to death people that destroyed the spirits mindlessly.

Now, the passives are somewhat usefull in PvE (At least it help a bit) while the actives are almost never used whether it’s in PvE or PvP.

For me, the best solution would be to make it so that the ranger’s pet become the embodiment of these spirits, so that we could finally be able to land some of those active skills.

NB.: I just want to add that I would be delighted if they were to get rid of the useless animation that uselessly slow the spirit use of the active skill. And since they are at it, they could use a bit of time to shave off a few of the useless pet animation that kill the responsivness of the ranger’s pet. Well… I’m dreaming…

Dadnir.5038:

NB.: I just want to add that I would be delighted if they were to get rid of the useless animation that uselessly slow the spirit use of the active skill. And since they are at it, they could use a bit of time to shave off a few of the useless pet animation that kill the responsivness of the ranger’s pet. Well… I’m dreaming…

Agree x1000.

Anet nerfed spirits because they would have been incredibly overpowered with Druid. But then they nerfed all the healing from druid and left spirits gutted. Sooooo.

Dadnir.5038:

NB.: I just want to add that I would be delighted if they were to get rid of the useless animation that uselessly slow the spirit use of the active skill. And since they are at it, they could use a bit of time to shave off a few of the useless pet animation that kill the responsivness of the ranger’s pet. Well… I’m dreaming…

Infinitely yes. At minimum this is much needed. They’re already killable at range, their one active doesn’t need to be so easily telegraphed/ avoidable in melee too.

I’ve been thinking more about spirits the last while and just thought I’d write stuff out here (knowing these have probably all been suggested before but also knowing I’m not going to trawl through 3 years of suggestions to find out).

Potentially fun possibilities (mostly just a collection of thoughts):

I’d like spirits to have a unique and noticeable impact on the surrounding area, while keeping their aspects of zone control.

In order to avoid having to balance around extremes the way Anet invariably do I’d probably have it so summoning a 2nd spirit unsummons the first. If a ranger can have only one spirit skill active at a time it would let them have stronger more impactful effects without needing to balance around “what if all 5 are in the one spot and get activated simultaneously”. The problem with that though is they still need to be roughly equivalent to other utility skills in power.

I’d personally prefer them to stay stationary but one thought is, a bit like engi turrets, they could be picked up to be moved by the ranger (their energy reabsorbed) after placement.
They could even have 2 modes of use, one for when summoned in the field that gives passive benefits to allies in range and possibly corresponding penalties to enemies that choose to try remove the passive benefits, the other when “reabsorbed” that gives the passive benefits to the ranger only but allows them to be mobile. The problem with this being they might step on the toes of too many other utility skill types (eg. signets)

They already function a bit like a cross between relatively decent banners and incredibly ineffective traps, “balanced” by the fact that they’re killable and completely useless as traps? I’d like the decision to kill them be something that an enemy needs to weigh up the pros and cons of, not something they can do in complete safety from range or by blind aoe spam/cleaving. I think disincentivising aoe/cleaving by having an effect on their attackers could be interesting.

Now, all of these together would probably result in incredibly overpowered multipurpose utility skills (wasn’t really what I’m advocating) but just for fun I thought I’d smush all those things together and see what kinds of skills would result.

4 functionalities per skill: aoe/party passive, personal passive, active, effect when spirit is hit.

Spirits:
Storm (power): current party damage boost, +25% move speed (we get a new signet), damage + daze, chance of a lightning strike (same way ally buffs work, individual chance of triggering per enemy with cds working on a per enemy basis, just to add a bit of threat but not reliable damage)
Sun (condi): current burning boost, burn on next attack, current active (could be nice to have revealed instead but we can do that with sic em), chance to catch fire (not the most imaginative I admit)
Water (healing); chance to remove a condition, (unsure here, we have passive healing and passive condi cleanse in signets already, probably can’t just replace one of them too though is the condi signet really used in it’s current form?), aoe heal, life steal and give to ranger. (again, imagination failing, it’s late and I’ve already written a book so I’ll just call it here).

Any thoughts on each spirit utility skill having up to 4 potential uses/effects?

I can’t help but think tempests are just mobile spirit rangers… without the killable spirits.

Confirming that yes, spirits were totally ruined by the overhaul. They’re not even unique either, they’re just like traps with procs. Overhaul again from scratch IMHO.

Nature’s Vengeance
I don’t think the name fits with its mechanics. I’m PRETTY sure, with that name, that the effect of triggering their active on kill was supposed to be included… But they removed it last minute.
Suggested Rework

• Double Health
• Double Active cast – The old version had the active usable many times before the spirit would die. Dunno why they changed it – this trait would enable the player to cast the active twice (with cooldowns, of course)
• Cast the Active when they are killed – Would create really interesting play, and it used to be a trait.

Add a new Master Trait
Replace Vigorous Training with
Nature’s Gift

• Add the boon effects to this trait (make them last slightly longer… I mean… Look at Warriors. Heralds. Engie Turrets. Elementalists etc etc)
  - Water – 3s Regen every 3s
  - Sun – 3s 3 Might every 3s
  - Storm – 3s Swiftness every 3s
  - Frost – 3s Vigor every 3s
  - Stone – 2s 1 Stability every 3s
  - Nature – 1s Resistnace every 3s
• Make them mobile when traited with this trait – I still do NOT understand the removal of mobile spirits. Guardians get Spirit Weapons. Warriors have banners that can be moved. Engies get Drones. Elementalists Elementals. Necros, THOUSANDS of Minions.

Addendum:

If they’re reaaally not willing to bring back any form of mobile spirits…

Could they at least make spirits ground targeted?

Yeah. They removed spirit mobility and spirit activation on death. End of discussion.

I dont think they need the mobility back. How I would overhaul spirits:

-Reduce the cast time significantly, like 1/4s.
-Spirits are now ground targeted (900 range).
-Active now destroys the spirit and you shadow step to the location of the spirit (like necro flesh wurm, stun break too).
-For a short time you are imbued with some boosted passive effect from the destroyed spirit (i.e. after activating the Storm Spirit your next attack dazes and calls a lightning strike on your target).

I wish they worked like Ritualist spirits. Specifically the ritualist spirits with strong effects that sapped the spirit of health every time the “chance on hit effect” was activated. The spirit dies faster if it’s bonus is used a lot. Is how they kept those balanced.

I’ve suggested this before, but IMO the best fix for spirits would be to convert the ‘active’ into an on-cast effect. That way they’d work like GW1 spirits and go onto cool-down while they are still active (rather than after they die). 20 seconds (or so) after summoning the spirit, you could then summon a new one and if you’ve moved on, your spirit would essentially ‘move’ too.

I just thought abput a new pretty sinple solution.
Süirits are no entities any more.
When you cast a spirit you. Your pet aand 4 allies get an aura corresponding to the spirits element (water just gets a heal over time) The aura procs every 6 s for 4s (to be in line with tempest).
When the spirot is activated you oakheart spirit manifesting hitting the ground and creating a combofield on the rangers location. All fields corresponding to there element (earth gets a projectile deflect and a smoke field, nature gets a light field). And all fields pulsing something.
Fire→fire
Ice→ice
Storm→vuln
Earth→blind
Nature→converts condis and boons

Great suggestions, especially the ground targeting if they’re not going to make them unbound. Keep them coming guys! Spirits have such potential – just need to get a dev’s eyes on this thread!

Please, also, keep the replies constructive

If people understood how spirits work, they would use them in WvW. Spirits are most effective when there are lots of players running around.

• 5 players standing still = 5 players wasting the full potential of the spirit because they are on 10s cooldown.
• 15 players running around = Up to 15 players proccing spirit buffs.
• Dead spirit = still going to pulse 3 more times. Frost Spirit damage buff lasts 15 seconds after it dies.

If you run a venom-share thief, you can see torment and poison damage numbers showing up on your screen that other people applied… but if you use a spirit, you can’t see most of what your spirits are accomplishing. So, if you don’t understand how spirits work… and you can’t see them working… it is understandable that people don’t think they work well.

Nature spirit.

Strength of the pack heals better, and gives you 3 stacks of stability instantly.

Guys, don’t worry about stability, I got it covered with nature spirit. Said no one ever.

The aoe auto res is strong, but why pick an elite to res over one that can prevent deaths? Also, search and rescue exists.

It’s not useless, but would be rare pick as a utility. As is, it just gives ranger -1 elite skill.

misterdevious.6482:

If people understood how spirits work, they would use them in WvW. Spirits are most effective when there are lots of players running around.

• 5 players standing still = 5 players wasting the full potential of the spirit because they are on 10s cooldown.
• 15 players running around = Up to 15 players proccing spirit buffs.
• Dead spirit = still going to pulse 3 more times. Frost Spirit damage buff lasts 15 seconds after it dies.

If you run a venom-share thief, you can see torment and poison damage numbers showing up on your screen that other people applied… but if you use a spirit, you can’t see most of what your spirits are accomplishing. So, if you don’t understand how spirits work… and you can’t see them working… it is understandable that people don’t think they work well.

Well you know that spirits actually effects only 5 allies and your pet included which means no 15 people proccing buff only 4

Still waiting for the day when Spirits on gutted further. There’s one thing about them that has remained for so long, I’m surprised Anet didn’t touch it yet. Days are numbered.

InsaneQR.7412:

Well you know that spirits actually effects only 5 allies and your pet included which means no 15 people proccing buff only 4

Spirits only buff 5 allies at a time… but depending on the situation they may proc 5 times or 15 times in 10 seconds.

People standing still = Stagnant spirit = 5 procs once every 10 seconds
5 group members standing still getting the buff over and over will proc on the first pulse (0s) and on the fourth (9s). They won’t proc in-between because they will still be on cooldown. The second and third pulses are wasted.

Lots of players running around = Efficient spirit = Up to 15 procs every 9 seconds
5 different players can get the buff and proc on every pulse. The cooldown is per player… so as long as you have lots of players moving around the spirit changing proximity, the spirit can grant 5 procs on the first pulse, 5 procs on the second pulse, 5 procs on the third pulse…

The cooldown is only an issue when the same players are getting the buff.

All I know I want, is that I’d tie spirits to our pets somehow, like the wisp on staff #2, then go from there.

misterdevious.6482:

InsaneQR.7412:

Well you know that spirits actually effects only 5 allies and your pet included which means no 15 people proccing buff only 4

Spirits only buff 5 allies at a time… but depending on the situation they may proc 5 times or 15 times in 10 seconds.

People standing still = Stagnant spirit = 5 procs once every 10 seconds
5 group members standing still getting the buff over and over will proc on the first pulse (0s) and on the fourth (9s). They won’t proc in-between because they will still be on cooldown. The second and third pulses are wasted.

Lots of players running around = Efficient spirit = Up to 15 procs every 9 seconds
5 different players can get the buff and proc on every pulse. The cooldown is per player… so as long as you have lots of players moving around the spirit changing proximity, the spirit can grant 5 procs on the first pulse, 5 procs on the second pulse, 5 procs on the third pulse…

The cooldown is only an issue when the same players are getting the buff.

You know actually that thete is not only the cd for the buff but also the icd for application? And in big group fights spirits die fast so they can buff once and without active.

The stationary buff idea is not the bad design here, its the wonky icd the inconsistance of spirit buffs and the spirits lifespan.

I mean a condi share thief as you have mentioned can buff 5 allies instant wothout relying on an entity and buffs in intervals.
What most people want is a buff on activation and maybe an effect on second activation.

InsaneQR.7412:

You know actually that thete is not only the cd for the buff but also the icd for application?

The buff and the boon are both applied every 3 seconds. Hover the mouse over the buff icon and you can see it reset every 3 seconds.

And in big group fights spirits die fast so they can buff once and without active.

A spirit that is summoned and sacrificed immediately will put out 4 pulses: once before it dies and 3 after. That is long enough for a group of 5 players to come off cooldown and proc the effect a second time for 10 procs total. A frost spirit sacrificed immediately can still grant 15 seconds of damage boost and 4 pulses of Might. Four pulses in a huge chaotic battle with players moving around could produce up to 20 procs (5 different players each time x 4 pulses).

InsaneQR.7412:

I mean a condi share thief as you have mentioned can buff 5 allies instant wothout relying on an entity and buffs in intervals.

Ranger spirits come from the nature rituals of GW1. You are affecting an area, not specific people. Unlike minions and turrets, the spirits continue to work for awhile after they die. In WvW, you can place spirits at the bottom of tower walls and the players on top of the wall will be the ones getting the protection/stability/regen. With smart placement, the spirits can stay alive, and allies in the area can benefit while you are doing something else. Or you just pop them early and get ready to put them down 20 seconds later in a better spot.

InsaneQR.7412:

What most people want is a buff on activation and maybe an effect on second activation.

I enjoyed using the boring nature rituals in GW1. You changed the environment to be more conducive for you to win. In WvW, the spirits (even dead spirits) buff so many people that it doesn’t matter that the actives don’t land often.

How about if the spirits become astral wisps and circle the ranger, making them mobile and passive/active effect centered on the ranger? Circling wisps are certainly doable in the tech. Animation can be minimal or non-existent, allowing sun spirit’s blind to be instant, like it should be, and frost and earth actives dropping under the ranger for ice combo field or to help in escapes.
The wisps could each have a colour indicating the type of spirit, and Spirit of Nature would be larger in size.
To spread them out, I’d suggest sun and storm around the shoulders, (sky) and frost and earth near the floor (ground). Spirit of Nature floating around the head maybe.

Matt H.6142:

How about if the spirits become astral wisps and circle the ranger, making them mobile and passive/active effect centered on the ranger? Circling wisps are certainly doable in the tech. Animation can be minimal or non-existent, allowing sun spirit’s blind to be instant, like it should be, and frost and earth actives dropping under the ranger for ice combo field or to help in escapes.
The wisps could each have a colour indicating the type of spirit, and Spirit of Nature would be larger in size.
To spread them out, I’d suggest sun and storm around the shoulders, (sky) and frost and earth near the floor (ground). Spirit of Nature floating around the head maybe.

Beautiful! :O

Matt H.6142:

How about if the spirits become astral wisps and circle the ranger, making them mobile and passive/active effect centered on the ranger? Circling wisps are certainly doable in the tech. Animation can be minimal or non-existent, allowing sun spirit’s blind to be instant, like it should be, and frost and earth actives dropping under the ranger for ice combo field or to help in escapes.
The wisps could each have a colour indicating the type of spirit, and Spirit of Nature would be larger in size.
To spread them out, I’d suggest sun and storm around the shoulders, (sky) and frost and earth near the floor (ground). Spirit of Nature floating around the head maybe.

In fact, they already have the animation done with Staff 2 – Astral Wisp! Great idea!

I remember when I would see a Spirit ranger back when they could move. They had a whole jungle of stuff behind them lol. I use the Elite Spirit 100% of the time to bring back all downed players in one swoop and avoid a complete wipe. It is irreplaceable to me, though I’m sure no one notices the lives saved. The smaller ones, I only use one from time to time if it is a long stationary fight to make sure everyone is benefiting the entire time.

1. Remove the ICD condi/boon applications
2. Actually make unique effects. Projectile speed/unblockable, incoming condi/stun duration, enemy boon duration reduction, etc. Ranger’s don’t need banners with health bars or applications that are impossible to balance even with ICD.
3. Increase their AoE range for their effects.
4. Adjust their actives and cooldowns to be a little more impactful.
5. Incorporate some defense such as stun breaking or cc or a combo field to make better combo effects from them.

6. Adjust these until they are well adjusted for overall ranger builds.

NinjaEd.3946:

1. Remove the ICD condi/boon applications
2. Actually make unique effects. Projectile speed/unblockable, incoming condi/stun duration, enemy boon duration reduction, etc. Ranger’s don’t need banners with health bars or applications that are impossible to balance even with ICD.
3. Increase their AoE range for their effects.
4. Adjust their actives and cooldowns to be a little more impactful.
5. Incorporate some defense such as stun breaking or cc or a combo field to make better combo effects from them.

6. Adjust these until they are well adjusted for overall ranger builds.

I like these ideas, especially #2.

As for 3 & 4, the active of spirits have never felt good, especially now when they are stationary. Either remove them completly, or rework the mechanic. Also if actives remain, they should go off when the spirit dies even if you don’t manually choose to kill it.