"Challenging" PvE Content vs Ranger Mechanics

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Posted by: Melana.8345

Melana.8345

I debated with myself for quite a while whether to actually write this – in the end, seeing the descriptions of the Queen’s Jubilee with “bosses designed to punish zerg groupings” tipped the balance.

There is a serious conflict-of-design between challenging content designed to punish poor/unskilled play, and the Ranger’s primary mechanic.

We’ve seen over the last several months a general trend to make more interesting fights by requiring skilled play by the player (which I think is a very good thing overall). Fights requiring awareness of surroundings (mines, the electricity walls, dodging cannon fire), constant repositioning, tactics for “trick the enemy into eating their own companion’s fire to weaken them”, etc have been making for much more interesting fights. Players that don’t learn to dodge, that don’t learn to move, that don’t learn to watch what is happening around them start being introduced into situations where they have to start learning – which ends up making for better players in the end. It also turns the fights from more static “tank-and-spank” into things that need more awareness of what’s going on.

I actually don’t see any other way to create interesting and challenging fights – and I don’t think these are a bad thing…

The problem is that the Ranger’s pet represents everything that this type of combat is designed to punish.

The pet does not dodge. It is not aware of aoe circles, and just stands blindly in them. It has no pathing ability to recognise a mine, so explodes every kitten one. It can’t jump on boxes to avoid electricity walls. It’s too kitten slow to respond to a Ranger’s commands for the Ranger to compensate for this most of the time, it doesn’t heel properly (preferring to run around the ranger at about 2m range away) so the Ranger can’t path it through “a minefield” themselves, and even when called back it’ll take ages to actually start moving and then path back in a straight line through every single bit of aoe along the way (there’s no ability for the Ranger to say “scatter/move” instead of “come to me”). Even when calling on it to actually use a skill, the 2-5 second activation delay makes that skill pretty useless (as most of the time it’ll miss). And in some of these fights, there was actually nothing the ranger could do to keep a pet alive and functioning – the limitations of the AI couldn’t be worked around at all (e.g. the electric walls fight).

Pets work well enough in open world combat, because there’s more leeway for “unskilled” type play – the lack of situational awareness in the Pet’s AI has less impact. I’m not skilled in PvP, so I can’t comment on their capabilities there.

In “challenging & interesting PvE combat” such as we’ve seen over the last few months, the Ranger’s primary mechanic is to have their damage nerfed by 20% or more for the duration of the fight.

Whether that nerf is due to pet death, to calling them out of combat to prevent death, or simply just due to them not being able to hit a moving target doesn’t really matter – the end result is that the Ranger was balanced around an NPC AI that is incapable of reacting to the challenges that players can, and the mechanic itself is in direct conflict with the desire to be able to provide interesting & challenging content.

A primary mechanic that makes you automatically (and sometimes unavoidably) weakened by AI failures you can’t control right when you need all your skill and capability is a failed mechanic.

Despaired Ranger: Crafted The Dreamer, lost range, lost GS condi damage for synergy.
Pet AI awful. Sword root+Aussie latency unmanagable. Lost playstyle, lost legendary, given up.
Mell: 80 Asura Guardian (+7 other 80s) | Aus Serenity [AUS] | Jade Quarry

(edited by Melana.8345)

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Posted by: Kajin.5301

Kajin.5301

nicely said man.

Skysap & Qaju & Juqa -VILE- Desolation

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Posted by: Holland.9351

Holland.9351

I haven’t had a look at the new content yet, but if it’s more of the same as the aether dungeon, then it might be worth bumping up this old topic of mine in the dungeon forum:
http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/to-Devs-Take-rangers-into-account/first

I’m basically asking the dungeon devs to limit themselves and take ranger pets into account while designing their dungeons, or otherwise push the other devs to improve the ranger pet mechanics in dungeons so the dungeon devs don’t have to limit themselves.

ANet is a giant wall that people talk to. Their company icon is actually very appropriate.

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Posted by: Harnel.6810

Harnel.6810

This is, unfortunately, true. Against Subdirector NULL, I had to quit the party so others could join in because my pet kept setting off mines and getting i or another player killed, even with the firm control i was placing on it. The simple fact of the matter is that unless a pet learns how to path around this sort of thing, We’re losing our ability to fight appropriately in fights that include such things. yes, we as ranger players can dodge, but our pets simply can’t.

I’m against permanent stowing. I play my ranger as a beastmaster because it’s why I play the profession in the first place, and that’s what you’re signing up for when you choose to play a ranger. Pets are fine in normal content – Citadel of Flame, Crucible of Eternity, Ascalonian Catacombs, and numerous world based events are all doable, possibly even easy if you know what you’re doing. The problem here is that these simply aren’t designed the same way, and that causes serious problems to anybody who can’t think, whether it be player or AI.

Excessive changes to pet mechanics are something I’m against – there’d be too many problems with a widespread change. But giving their AI an awareness of target zones would be a good way to make them more capable in combat without introducing a large change to their mechanics. Unfortunately, I don’t know how hard that’d be to implement, but it’s still something to consider.

On another note, to Holland: Avoid insulting Anet. First off, they designed the game we enjoy in the first place, so give them points for that. Second, They can’t officially reply to everything – doing so is the purview of designers for things like tabletop RPGs and similar. Every time they respond they need to get permission for the response or there’s a good chance they’ll reveal something that they’re not supposed to. And finally, Keep in mind that changes have to be in the works for a bare minimum of two months before they’re seen. Charr armor, for example, we likely won’t be seeing for quite a while; not because the Devs aren’t working on it, but because what’s been requested is an insane overhaul that’ll probably take months to accomplish.

Insulting them just makes you look like an ingrate, and I know you’re better than that.

(edited by Harnel.6810)

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Posted by: OGDeadHead.8326

OGDeadHead.8326

+1 to the op, all true unfortunately.

Win10 pro | Xeon 5650 @ 4 GHz | R9 280x toxic | 24 Gig Ram | Process Lasso user

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Posted by: Castaliea.3156

Castaliea.3156

This is exactly why, as much as some people want to fight it, there has to be some sort of choice involved in our Ranger mechanic. I love pets, I do. I just happen to also enjoy content that pets are just not suited for and as much as I love my Ranger but I just can’t play it anymore. I post a thread with suggestions on how I’d fix things but there is no easy solution for this problem short of a major overhaul. Either ANet accepts that and does what they need to for the class(easy or not) or Rangers need to accept the fact they’re always going to be less useful, if not a straight liability. For now though, good night. Have fun everyone.

Here is above mentioned thread(sorry for it being unfinished);
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Comprehensive-Ranger-Suggestions/first#post2550550

Guild Leader
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Posted by: Miyu.8137

Miyu.8137

Can nothing else but agree with the op, when it comes to any challenging content the ranger’s pet is being totaly useless. As exampel let me just post this vid of a ranger soloing Lupicus while his pet is being constantly death.

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Posted by: keenlam.4753

keenlam.4753

+1 great post, OP. I think all rangers would agree to what you said.
@Miyu: nice vid, looks like the player just gave up on using the pets after they died.

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Posted by: Kajin.5301

Kajin.5301

If they can’t fix the dungeon content at least they can add this workaround fix: add a trait or merge into an existing one: “Avenging Ranger” Deal +xx% more damage. You lost your pet.

The White Lion class in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (rip) had that.

It sucks for ppl that still want to duo with their pets but at least it would compensate a bit.

Skysap & Qaju & Juqa -VILE- Desolation

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Posted by: Boomstin.3460

Boomstin.3460

If they can’t fix the dungeon content at least they can add this workaround fix: add a trait or merge into an existing one: “Avenging Ranger” Deal +xx% more damage. You lost your pet.

The White Lion class in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (rip) had that.

It sucks for ppl that still want to duo with their pets but at least it would compensate a bit.

Not going to happen because

1. If they did that they’d be admitting they have made a mistake with the profession, no self respecting developer ever does that
2. Robert most likely has already come up with new dungeon mechanics to nuke down the pet with various ways
3. It’s too simple and easy solution
4. Dungeon runs last longer when the dungeon mechanics keep targeting the pet without any means to counter it , content lasting longer saves valuable developement hours

All is vain.

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Posted by: Stooperdale.3560

Stooperdale.3560

To expand the topic slightly: Spirits have low health and are static so fail on high mobility content. Traps are less useful in high mobility content if a ranger cannot stand near the trap and control the enemies within it. This leaves the ranger with 2 near redundant utility lines.

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Posted by: Quarktastic.1027

Quarktastic.1027

I haven’t had a look at the new content yet, but if it’s more of the same as the aether dungeon, then it might be worth bumping up this old topic of mine in the dungeon forum:
http://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/dungeons/to-Devs-Take-rangers-into-account/first

I’m basically asking the dungeon devs to limit themselves and take ranger pets into account while designing their dungeons, or otherwise push the other devs to improve the ranger pet mechanics in dungeons so the dungeon devs don’t have to limit themselves.

ANet is a giant wall that people talk to. Their company icon is actually very appropriate.

If Anet designed dungeons around ranger pets, they would be dreadfully boring. The problem is, ranger pets and challenging content simply don’t mix. And if Anet’s vision of the ranger isn’t going to change in the near future, neither is our situation.

Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690

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Posted by: Kain Francois.4328

Kain Francois.4328

Can nothing else but agree with the op, when it comes to any challenging content the ranger’s pet is being totaly useless. As exampel let me just post this vid of a ranger soloing Lupicus while his pet is being constantly death.

Bad example.

Solo Lupicus isn’t a proper boss fight where the player kites. Instead the player just uses Whirling Defense while to mitigate projectiles, while the pet did its own thing. The fact he didn’t call it back during the boss’ large meditation/aoe attack or while using Whirling Defense means he really didn’t care to keep his pet alive.

In fact, I’m convinced the video would have been much faster had he cared about his pet.

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Posted by: stale.9785

stale.9785

There’s no choice here – +1 OP. Well said, man.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

I’ve only play ranger and have gotten every living story achievement so far. shrugs

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Can nothing else but agree with the op, when it comes to any challenging content the ranger’s pet is being totaly useless. As exampel let me just post this vid of a ranger soloing Lupicus while his pet is being constantly death.

Bad example.

Solo Lupicus isn’t a proper boss fight where the player kites. Instead the player just uses Whirling Defense while to mitigate projectiles, while the pet did its own thing. The fact he didn’t call it back during the boss’ large meditation/aoe attack or while using Whirling Defense means he really didn’t care to keep his pet alive.

In fact, I’m convinced the video would have been much faster had he cared about his pet.

Pretty much this. He let’s the pet die because Lupi does a lifedrain in phase 3 and he didn’t want to have to deal with keeping the pet alive for that because it potentially refills his life bar.

Lupi is a unique fight, just keep that in mind.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Cufufalating.8479

Cufufalating.8479

Anet: Lets make Rangers weaker than other classes if you exclude their pets.

Us: Ok that sounds cool and unique.

Anet: Now lets make all PvE content insta kill pets and not give rangers any control over their pet to help them survive.

Us: Wait.. what?

ANet: Also as a fun side effect pets with insta die in large WvW battles, handicapping rangers there as well, meaning Rangers are only good in sPvP and roaming!

Us: You know this isnt really what we had in mind…

Anet: kitten or we’ll nerf you some more

Us: -.-

Cufufalating – Ranger / Part-Time Mesmer
Gunnar’s Hold

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Really? Ranger tier 1 dungeon runner right now…I don’t know why you’re mad.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Cletus Van Damme.2795

Cletus Van Damme.2795

I don’t often have issues with them in dungeons. I’d like to be able to stow them for a period then bring them out like a weapon switch or something if they continue down this aoe maze floor design seen in aether.

As for challenging content if they’re going to design fights like Liadra where my pet had about 5 seconds of offense before instantly dying (2 seconds of it was staring blankly doing nothing after switching it from the other pet that died at the start of the fight) they need some kind of allowance for rangers.

Sure I beat her but the pet played no part, If I wanted a no pet win I’d go warrior and use rifle/longbow.

Magumer Ranger

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Posted by: Cuchullain.3104

Cuchullain.3104

I don’t know why they refuse to give us the ability to stow pets in combat. It is not a solution overall, but it at least let’s us keep them alive during times when they are otherwise a liability. Apparently, giving us this feature would amount to admitting that the pet mechanic in this game is borked, and we mustn’t have that.

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

I don’t know why they refuse to give us the ability to stow pets in combat. It is not a solution overall, but it at least let’s us keep them alive during times when they are otherwise a liability. Apparently, giving us this feature would amount to admitting that the pet mechanic in this game is borked, and we mustn’t have that.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the pet system is awful. The entire combat system is based around movement, positioning, and dodging or blocking major attacks. Pets cannot hit moving targets, can’t position themselves properly, and have no dodging or blocking. If they still refuse to admit that this is a major problem, all it does is make them look dishonest in the eyes of everyone.

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Posted by: thrice.9184

thrice.9184

If they can’t fix the dungeon content at least they can add this workaround fix: add a trait or merge into an existing one: “Avenging Ranger” Deal +xx% more damage. You lost your pet.

The White Lion class in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (rip) had that.

It sucks for ppl that still want to duo with their pets but at least it would compensate a bit.

Not going to happen because

1. If they did that they’d be admitting they have made a mistake with the profession, no self respecting developer ever does that
2. Robert most likely has already come up with new dungeon mechanics to nuke down the pet with various ways
3. It’s too simple and easy solution
4. Dungeon runs last longer when the dungeon mechanics keep targeting the pet without any means to counter it , content lasting longer saves valuable developement hours

This whole thread wins.

Ranger put into Retirement due to Anet Abuse.
9/3/13 rip

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Posted by: Indoles.1467

Indoles.1467

Really? Ranger tier 1 dungeon runner right now…I don’t know why you’re mad.

I’m curious as to where you get this information from. It can’t be that joke of a thread where pve bads try and convince others that X profession has less burst than Y profession because they don’t know how to utilize their profession.

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Posted by: Dante.1508

Dante.1508

Great post totally agree Ranger needs some hard core changes.

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Posted by: Tsohg.1798

Tsohg.1798

Really? Ranger isn’t chosen by tier 1 dungeon runners right now…I don’t know why you’re mad.

Fixt

See that hill? Thats where i’ll be, raining hell upon you.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

World record cof run 5:27, just search The Masked Paradigm’s posts from the dungeon speed clear guild DnT (Death and Taxes). It was 2 thieves, 1 ranger, 1 warrior, 1 mesmer and they finished faster than the warrior/mesmer record. If you think you can beat 5:27 without ranger’s party wide 12% DPS boost, you’ll have to prove it. Because right now, ranger is a top dog. Sorry to rain on your pity party but it’s true.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Castaliea.3156

Castaliea.3156

World record cof run 5:27, just search The Masked Paradigm’s posts from the dungeon speed clear guild DnT (Death and Taxes). It was 2 thieves, 1 ranger, 1 warrior, 1 mesmer and they finished faster than the warrior/mesmer record. If you think you can beat 5:27 without ranger’s party wide 12% DPS boost, you’ll have to prove it. Because right now, ranger is a top dog. Sorry to rain on your pity party but it’s true.

Yep. Top dog when it comes to mindless content! Just like our pets. We really are one!
This whole conversation has nothing to do with this thread. Please redirect it somewhere else.

Guild Leader
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Posted by: Waikd.4632

Waikd.4632

I cannot help but agree with this post. The ranger pet system makes for some amazing micro opportunities from the player essentially being in two places at once. Sadly the current pet AI (pet pathing, positioning and responsiveness come to mind), and user interface don’t allow for you to have the amount of control over the pet necessary to use it to its fullest.

That being said I love the companion reliance Arenanet put in place for rangers, it makes them a unique and very fun profession. I would therefore hate to see pets demoted to something little more than graphical niceties as a result of the poor pet management system.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Relax, why so mad? Cof 1 is just a DPS test. Of course it’s easy (unless you can’t frogger!) Ranger is useful everywhere—dungeons, fractals, jubilee. The point is that rangers main gripe, the lack of group buffs, has gone away now ghat vigorous spirits and spiritual knowledge were combined into a single adept trait, making spirits incredibly useful. Along with the spotter buff to 150 aoe precision, ranger is basically a good choice. Don’t take my word, just play spirits yourself.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Khayoss.2019

Khayoss.2019

This is well said, I’ve been saying the same thing for a long time but you said it better.

Take a look at some simple stuff from an old MMO. (music sucks, not my video, sorry).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5QgEpAKFu1o
Pet has no trouble hitting a moving target.
Or this game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_Lbg8uzc23Y
Pet sticks BEHIND the player at all times when moving out of combat. Doesn’t run off at all angles and get lost. Doesn’t twitch and jerk all over the place if the player takes one step forward. Also has no trouble hitting moving targets…

For a AAA MMO title that is several years newer than either of these games it’s shocking how bad and how primitive the pet system we have to deal with is. Even original Everquest beastlord of 2001 or whenever it was had better pet AI than what we deal with. The people that defend our pets are either playing their first MMO or are completely blind to the bad mechanics. ANet NEEDS to do something about our pets. Especially when taking into account what the OP brings up about advanced content. Even bringing pet AI up to par with these games would leave us at a disadvantage to what they design in PvE, and we haven’t even talked about WvW where they perform woefully against large forces and cut us off at the knees when facing situations where they can’t help us (attacking up and down from walls for instance).

Khayoss / Khayotica / Mistasia
Ehmry Bay – The Rally Bot Vortex [VOID]

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Certain pets don’t hit a moving target by design. Let’s take cats/birds for example. Without more run speed than their targets — without the ranger applying chills / cripples / crowd control — they struggle landing hits. Again, this is by design and meant to push you into a more active playstyle rather than letting the pet do all the work for you.

If you don’t like that playstyle, use dogs/spiders. Their attacks don’t depend on run speed. In fact, after the latest round of balance patches, spiders are very attractive.

Tin Foil Hat Hearer »—> Ranger Extraordinaire »—> “Be like water…”

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

My pet has done fine in -most- content, i could do Null, AR (other than the kittening spinning room, that kitten was stupid), Trials, etc, etc etc. Normally my pet only dies a few times, not a big deal, granted my DPS gets smashed by the nerf hammer when it happens because i’m a BM ranger, so a dead pet = dead DPS.

What we really need is to be able to rez our pets again, we were balanced around having the option of 1) spending 3 seconds (it was a cast, so if you were rupted it did nothing, idk why they took this out) and get your pet at half health or 2) Hit F4 and your pet was swapped but you got hit with a 60s CD instead.

They never compensated us for removing our rez ability, which is stupid, we either 1) Need a shorter CD on pet swap when it’s dead because 60s just destroys every builds damage/utility, and then if you have the kitten due to trait (i think that’s what it is) you’re boned even more due to how much you have in BM. What they should do is just make it so if we hit F3 while the pet is dead we begin to rez the pet (3 second cast skill) after the 3 seconds is up, pet is rezzed to half health, tie it to the F3 so there’s none of the “Oh dead pet is getting in the way!” and “I don’t want to rez some noobs pet!” BS is there.

PS: kitten Liadri

They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

Not everybody’s a sucker for the Meta, Chopps.

In fact I’d say the general populace is by and large completely ignorant of what people say on forums, much less know or care enough to derive any sense of overall well being from it. Having your profession mechanic get nuked from orbit for reasons entirely outside of your control, however, is something we can all identify with on an immediate visceral level. It’s frustrating on a good day, and it’s only going to get more and more frustrating if the living world dungeons are any indication of where the revamps are going.

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Posted by: Namica.2951

Namica.2951

Arena net has known that the pet is a giant issue with rangers and a massive hinderence in general, they have known this for almost a year now and have taken no steps to fix it.

Just how things are sad to say.

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Posted by: Boomstin.3460

Boomstin.3460

Certain pets don’t hit a moving target by design. Let’s take cats/birds for example. Without more run speed than their targets — without the ranger applying chills / cripples / crowd control — they struggle landing hits. Again, this is by design and meant to push you into a more active playstyle rather than letting the pet do all the work for you.

If you don’t like that playstyle, use dogs/spiders. Their attacks don’t depend on run speed. In fact, after the latest round of balance patches, spiders are very attractive.

Sigh, i appreciate that you try to be positive but coming up with a pet ai that can’t hit and move at the same time is just plain bad , several npcs share the same problem.
Ever run in a circle waiting for a camp supervisor to lose his buff? One can just run in a small circle without ever been hit by him.
Calling it a ‘design choice’ is the ultimate excuse , they needed to make cats/birds hit relatively hard since they couldn’t come up with a decent ai. If they ever manage to upgrade the ai they need to tone down the damage of the pets surely.

All is vain.

(edited by Boomstin.3460)

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Posted by: DarkChaos.4326

DarkChaos.4326

Its also great when the pet has a 2-5 second delay for INSTANT CAST abilities. (such as spider poison application)
But seriously, like someone else suggested, make it so if the Ranger doesn’t get hit by the AoE, the pet doesn’t either (For PvE/WvW only)

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Posted by: Khayoss.2019

Khayoss.2019

Certain pets don’t hit a moving target by design. Let’s take cats/birds for example. Without more run speed than their targets — without the ranger applying chills / cripples / crowd control — they struggle landing hits. Again, this is by design and meant to push you into a more active playstyle rather than letting the pet do all the work for you.

If you don’t like that playstyle, use dogs/spiders. Their attacks don’t depend on run speed. In fact, after the latest round of balance patches, spiders are very attractive.

That is such a cop out. Even with speed hitting moving targets is an issue, and the fact that you would have to augment your class defining ability to make it work – at all – is a major disadvantage. Play another mmo, any mmo. Pets stick to their targets like glue and have extended range on melee attacks to make up for any flakes in the AI. Pets also hit and move at the same time, and perform actions exactly when their masters tell them to, not whenever the hell they feel like it.

Why are you defending bad programming, making it sound like this is the way they meant for it to be? They took shortcuts and then built systems upon systems on top of what was designed poorly in the first place making it near impossible to change now without ripping it out and starting from scratch. That’s bad design and poor forethought. Trying to make out like it’s all roses isn’t helping anyone.

Khayoss / Khayotica / Mistasia
Ehmry Bay – The Rally Bot Vortex [VOID]

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

I’m not defending it. It’s what I’ve learned about how GW2 works after spending the last year of my free time playing it (about 2300 hours—95 full days).

I don’t think you understand how hard cats and birds hit. If they were unkitable, you wouldn’t have to take agility training, you would just use pet prowess. You don’t need signet of the hunt or natures voice. You might as well range with our recently buffed longbow and laugh when no one can close the gap.

That’s not fun gameplay. I’m sorry you don’t like the cat’s design but calling it a bug is completely wrong. It was made that way, again, I’ll say it for the 1000th time since it’s not getting through some thick craniums here: idea is to force the ranger ti play a more active playstyle by making the ranger work with the pet by applying slows and crowd control, allowing the pet to eat.

Again, this is not a bug. This is intended. This is not bad programming. This is intended.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Its also great when the pet has a 2-5 second delay for INSTANT CAST abilities. (such as spider poison application)
But seriously, like someone else suggested, make it so if the Ranger doesn’t get hit by the AoE, the pet doesn’t either (For PvE/WvW only)

That happens if your pet gets interrupted or stunned. Pay more attention to your pet! If you struggle getting utilites off in a zerg, why aren’t you using stability training and a board/pig? Even a bear in some builds?

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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

If they were unkitable, you wouldn’t have to take agility training, you would just use pet prowess. You don’t need signet of the hunt or natures voice.

Well good. Scrap the lot of it then, and give us Utilities and Traits that are about creating gameplay instead of choosing how we want to patch our wonky AI today.

(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Well good. Scrap the lot of it then, and give us Utilities and Traits that are about creating gameplay instead of choosing how we want to patch our wonky AI today.

Specific questions about pets are valid and acknowledged. I don’t claim to be necessarily happy with how pets work, I just accept it and utilize them to the best of my ability. I just get sick of reading about how pets not hitting targets is a bug. It’s not a bug. That is all.

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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

Well good. Scrap the lot of it then, and give us Utilities and Traits that are about creating gameplay instead of choosing how we want to patch our wonky AI today.

Specific questions about pets are valid and acknowledged. I don’t claim to be necessarily happy with how pets work, I just accept it and utilize them to the best of my ability. I just get sick of reading about how pets not hitting targets is a bug. It’s not a bug. That is all.

I get the overall style they’re going for. But it’s just not working. It has no functional compliment in PvE because mobs don’t move of their own volition and don’t participate in the Condition-Removal meta. Even in the gamemode it’s supposed to be working in it’s flow is awkward and inelegant because pet auto-attack and F2 use-age doesn’t neatly align with the windows of opportunity we create for the pet with snares.

You’re right that that’s not a bug. It’s just crappy design. That’s reason enough to jump down their throats about it.

(edited by Vox Hollow.2736)

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Posted by: Boomstin.3460

Boomstin.3460

Again, this is not a bug. This is intended. This is not bad programming. This is intended.

It most definately is bad design , most just call it a bug in the hopes anet would actually do something to remedy it
The agility training actually increases some pets time to kill targets. I guess that is intented also…
Sugercoating valid issues isn’t helping anyone. I get that there’s lot of misinformation and rangers get more bad rep than they deserve , not here though.

edit.

All is vain.

(edited by Boomstin.3460)

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Posted by: Khayoss.2019

Khayoss.2019

And this makes sense to you? They give up survivability and utility for the ability to pump out pure damage, and that’s not enough of a sacrifice? They also have to sacrifice their ability to hit and actually DO that damage without further augmentation by us? That still falls in the bad design category man. If the damage is so high that they are forcefully restrained from using it then the damage is too high. The mechanic is not player friendly and doesn’t match the balance design of other abilities and their tradeoffs.

Birds also have access to swiftness, which they use at odd and unpredictable times because we have no control over them… that I suppose is a built in mechanic to counter their weakness of not hitting moving targets that in itself is also intentionally crippled by a bad design choice? Some birds and cats also have chill options as their F2 attack, which may or may not be used at the time when it would be useful due to delay and attack queuing.

This is also not to mention the fact that you can trick pets into pathing themselves out of combat for long periods of time no matter how fast or slow they are by using terrain.

I’m not a new Ranger Chopps, I have 1400 hours logged as well and I own gear with nearly every stat combo available. I build and re-build on a regular basis. More importantly, I’m not new to MMO’s. I’ve been playing them steadily since 1998. I also manage and interact with a software development team at work. I can recognize a poorly designed system when I see one.

And I’m not attacking you personally, you contribute a lot to these forums that I appreciate. I am firmly on the ‘this pet system is abysmal’ side of the fence though, and any comments trying to prop up this system as good is in the crosshairs. Our pet system needs help desperately, and the last thing we need are the vocal leaders of our class to be downplaying it’s flaws. As the OP validly points out, the farther we go down this road of “challenging content”, the more the flaws with our system are going to show up. Not to mention that they are already a hindrance in WvW where the players make the content very ‘challenging’ for the pet. We need options that will allow us to function at full capacity in all situations and we need them now.

Khayoss / Khayotica / Mistasia
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Posted by: Vox Hollow.2736

Vox Hollow.2736

Sorry, I don’t mean to be attacking you either, Chopps.
It’s nothing personal, and I generally like you as a poster. The whole situation is just really irritating.

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Posted by: Chopps.5047

Chopps.5047

Again, this is not a bug. This is intended. This is not bad programming. This is intended.

It most definately is bad design , most just call it a bug in the hopes anet would actually do something to remedy it
The agility training actually increases some pets time to kill targets. I guess that is intented also…
Sugercoating valid issues isn’t helping anyone. I get that there’s lot of misinformation and rangers get more bad rep than they deserve , not here though.

edit.

You can make that argument, sure. I’m on the fence, being a technical person myself, I know how hard it can be to get design right. Glad to see we could reach a point of agreeing to definitions! Finally, the discussion can move forward.

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Posted by: DarkChaos.4326

DarkChaos.4326

Its also great when the pet has a 2-5 second delay for INSTANT CAST abilities. (such as spider poison application)
But seriously, like someone else suggested, make it so if the Ranger doesn’t get hit by the AoE, the pet doesn’t either (For PvE/WvW only)

That happens if your pet gets interrupted or stunned. Pay more attention to your pet! If you struggle getting utilites off in a zerg, why aren’t you using stability training and a board/pig? Even a bear in some builds?

It failed to use its INSTANT CAST in the 1v1 QJ Gaunlet, I’m pretty sure I’m not blind.
The AI puts the ability in a queue where my spider will:
Immobilize —> use poison AoE --> Finally apply the instant cast skill —> basic attack.
You just made WAYYYY too many assumptions in such a short time. Not to mention I’m not a BM spec to begin with since pets are nearly useless in PvE.

EDIT: btw, INSTANT CASTS are usable while CC’d. (Mist form, Thief venoms, Signet of Stone.. etc.)

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Posted by: Treeline.3865

Treeline.3865

Having played around 1500 hours, completely concur with OP. In this patch, Liadra is the one. There is no way to micro pet to avoid getting one-shot; Even if you put effort into it it will still happen and it takes so much from the ranger that it is simply not worth it.

Leader of Heroes [Hero] – Seafarers Rest

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Posted by: Durzlla.6295

Durzlla.6295

Having played around 1500 hours, completely concur with OP. In this patch, Liadra is the one. There is no way to micro pet to avoid getting one-shot; Even if you put effort into it it will still happen and it takes so much from the ranger that it is simply not worth it.

This, I’ve tried it while using guard, sig of stone, wld, etc etc etc, nothing, pet dies, everytime in a matter of seconds and contributes kittening nothing to the fight which then proceeds to kitten us by making a large amount of our traits and utilities worthless.

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As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna

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Posted by: Unholy Pillager.3791

Unholy Pillager.3791

Relax, why so mad? Cof 1 is just a DPS test. Of course it’s easy (unless you can’t frogger!) Ranger is useful everywhere—dungeons, fractals, jubilee. The point is that rangers main gripe, the lack of group buffs, has gone away now ghat vigorous spirits and spiritual knowledge were combined into a single adept trait, making spirits incredibly useful. Along with the spotter buff to 150 aoe precision, ranger is basically a good choice. Don’t take my word, just play spirits yourself.

The problem, of course, is that your strawman is showing. Spirits are not so useful in the areas OP is referring to. AoE buffs needed there are those that cannot be destroyed: spotter (which you mentioned), guardian shouts, warrior banners, etc. Spirits and moas, neither of which can avoid the types of AoE’s being discussed, are far less useful. Besides, in other areas rangers are still weak: lack of variety in fields, and lack of variety in finishers. Okay, so we have a melee-range blast finisher on a 35-second cooldown now. Hooray! Except, who would use that when single handed ranger weapons are so bad, and thieves get a ranged blast finish with no cooldown? Also, rangers get what, 2 fields total? One of them is on an otherwise poor offhand, and the other requires you to sacrifice a lot of self healing potential and mobility. Compare this to what the thief has easy access to: smoke, poison, and dark, along with multiple types of finishers including spammable blast finish.