Guild Wars 2

Gern.2978:

Sebrent.3625:

Arc Lightning. It is a constant … as opposed to a 2.5s channel that can be cast every 8 to 10s at most … so 10.5 to 12.5s. It’s not interrupted by their other damage which has no telegraph and simply smacks you in the face.

It also stacks with their abundance of ways to proc on-crit.

Let’s look back at counters to Rapid Fire:

• Daze
• Stun
• LOS
• Block
• Reflect
• Dodge
• Invuln

Plenty of ways to mitigate Rapid Fire. We don’t need to add “move slightly to the side” to this list.

A buddy of mine was trying Dagger+Pistol Thief. He didn’t know what to do about Rapid Fire at first and died to it quite a bit. Then I pointed out to him that his #4 is an interrupt and it was never an issue again. Add to that that his Steal dazes and it’s even less of a problem.

Later he was trying Sword+Dagger Thief. He can still daze with steal every ~21s so roughly every other Rapid Fire and can easily LOS with intelligent use of Infiltrator’s Strike/Return.

Mesmer has daze via shatters and plenty of weapons also interrupt in one way or another.

Warrior has plenty of blocks as well as interrupts depending on their weapon sets.

… and the list goes on and on.

Complaining about Rapid Fire is like complaining about conditions when you don’t bring any condition removal.

At least it does its damage with a telegraph and over 2.5s from an interruptible channel. There are other abilities with no telegraph that do the damage instantly and from range.

I very much disagree. Yes there are ways to mitigate RF, but no build/class has access to even half of those abilities at any given time, let alone all of them at all times as everyone seems to be making it sound. In fact, given the short cooldown of RF, you are realistically only going to be able to counter the first RF, you then have to eat the second or dodge twice to avoid it, which then leave you having to eat all the rest of the ranger’s damage.

No class has access to dodge and LOS? What are you smoking?

StickerHappy.8052:

Gern.2978:

Sebrent.3625:

Arc Lightning. It is a constant … as opposed to a 2.5s channel that can be cast every 8 to 10s at most … so 10.5 to 12.5s. It’s not interrupted by their other damage which has no telegraph and simply smacks you in the face.

It also stacks with their abundance of ways to proc on-crit.

Let’s look back at counters to Rapid Fire:

• Daze
• Stun
• LOS
• Block
• Reflect
• Dodge
• Invuln

Plenty of ways to mitigate Rapid Fire. We don’t need to add “move slightly to the side” to this list.

A buddy of mine was trying Dagger+Pistol Thief. He didn’t know what to do about Rapid Fire at first and died to it quite a bit. Then I pointed out to him that his #4 is an interrupt and it was never an issue again. Add to that that his Steal dazes and it’s even less of a problem.

Later he was trying Sword+Dagger Thief. He can still daze with steal every ~21s so roughly every other Rapid Fire and can easily LOS with intelligent use of Infiltrator’s Strike/Return.

Mesmer has daze via shatters and plenty of weapons also interrupt in one way or another.

Warrior has plenty of blocks as well as interrupts depending on their weapon sets.

… and the list goes on and on.

Complaining about Rapid Fire is like complaining about conditions when you don’t bring any condition removal.

At least it does its damage with a telegraph and over 2.5s from an interruptible channel. There are other abilities with no telegraph that do the damage instantly and from range.

I very much disagree. Yes there are ways to mitigate RF, but no build/class has access to even half of those abilities at any given time, let alone all of them at all times as everyone seems to be making it sound. In fact, given the short cooldown of RF, you are realistically only going to be able to counter the first RF, you then have to eat the second or dodge twice to avoid it, which then leave you having to eat all the rest of the ranger’s damage.

No class has access to dodge and LOS? What are you smoking?

Read all of what I wrote. I said: “…no build/class has access to even half of those abilities at any given time, let alone all of them at all times…”
No class has access to all these abilities at all times, and dodge is not the most effective counter to RF since you have to dodge twice in order to avoid all the RF damage.

Another point: all this vehement defense of RF in it’s current state should worry all ranger players, as RF has clearly become a crutch for the class. It needs major work to nearly all other abilities to make them more effective so the class can move away from LB as the only viable weapon for the class.

Yep, Dodge rolls and LOS can be done by all classes. Proper positioning is one of those things that separate players of varying skill levels.

There’s quite a large amount of access to interrupts: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Interrupt

• Daze: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
• Fear: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear
• Knockdown: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockdown
• Launch: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch
• Pull: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pull
• Knockback: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockback
• Stun: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

Same with block: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

Same with Reflect: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

and so on.

Please take a look at the plethora of abilities in game across all the various classes that enable you to counter rapid fire.

Also please note that a Ranger can interrupt their own Rapid Fire. For example, if you come at me with a Warrior Eviscerate, I’m going to dodge that. I don’t want that damage to land in my face.

Gern.2978:

StickerHappy.8052:

Gern.2978:

Sebrent.3625:

Arc Lightning. It is a constant … as opposed to a 2.5s channel that can be cast every 8 to 10s at most … so 10.5 to 12.5s. It’s not interrupted by their other damage which has no telegraph and simply smacks you in the face.

It also stacks with their abundance of ways to proc on-crit.

Let’s look back at counters to Rapid Fire:

• Daze
• Stun
• LOS
• Block
• Reflect
• Dodge
• Invuln

Plenty of ways to mitigate Rapid Fire. We don’t need to add “move slightly to the side” to this list.

A buddy of mine was trying Dagger+Pistol Thief. He didn’t know what to do about Rapid Fire at first and died to it quite a bit. Then I pointed out to him that his #4 is an interrupt and it was never an issue again. Add to that that his Steal dazes and it’s even less of a problem.

Later he was trying Sword+Dagger Thief. He can still daze with steal every ~21s so roughly every other Rapid Fire and can easily LOS with intelligent use of Infiltrator’s Strike/Return.

Mesmer has daze via shatters and plenty of weapons also interrupt in one way or another.

Warrior has plenty of blocks as well as interrupts depending on their weapon sets.

… and the list goes on and on.

Complaining about Rapid Fire is like complaining about conditions when you don’t bring any condition removal.

At least it does its damage with a telegraph and over 2.5s from an interruptible channel. There are other abilities with no telegraph that do the damage instantly and from range.

I very much disagree. Yes there are ways to mitigate RF, but no build/class has access to even half of those abilities at any given time, let alone all of them at all times as everyone seems to be making it sound. In fact, given the short cooldown of RF, you are realistically only going to be able to counter the first RF, you then have to eat the second or dodge twice to avoid it, which then leave you having to eat all the rest of the ranger’s damage.

No class has access to dodge and LOS? What are you smoking?

Read all of what I wrote. I said: “…no build/class has access to even half of those abilities at any given time, let alone all of them at all times…”
No class has access to all these abilities at all times, and dodge is not the most effective counter to RF since you have to dodge twice in order to avoid all the RF damage.

Another point: all this vehement defense of RF in it’s current state should worry all ranger players, as RF has clearly become a crutch for the class. It needs major work to nearly all other abilities to make them more effective so the class can move away from LB as the only viable weapon for the class.

I did. ALL classes can dodge and find LOS regardless of the build. The only reason i see now is, aside from yhe numerous advices people give you here

But the FACT that you do not wanna take these advice and learn from it, this thread will only get longer.

WHY? Because threads like these are wanting for NERFS.

And guess what? LB really works great against engineers. And you are playing what?

Gern.2978:

Sebrent.3625:

@Gern:
Fight a good scepter+X Elementalist. Channeled air hurts. It hurts even more given their traits and sigils have it constantly proccing nastiness on you. Then add to that they can cast Lightning Strike every 5s without interrupting it and it really hurts. It also can’t be reflected. Sure, it doesn’t hurt as much as a single Rapid Fire, but it just stays on you continuously while they hit you with other things uninterrupted.

@Manekk:
Lol, aye.

That’s not really relevant here. Just because there are other abilities that may or may not be overpowered, doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t work on RF or we can’t suggest changes to other abilities. Also this fact: “Sure, it doesn’t hurt as much as a single Rapid Fire..” kind of negates your point. LS is neither a channeled ability nor hits as hard as RF. You will have to refresh me on what channeled air is, I am not familiar with ele’s abilities too much.

And the ability to dodge RF negates your point :/

Sebrent.3625:

Yep, Dodge rolls and LOS can be done by all classes. Proper positioning is one of those things that separate players of varying skill levels.

There’s quite a large amount of access to interrupts: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Interrupt

• Daze: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daze
• Fear: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fear
• Knockdown: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockdown
• Launch: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Launch
• Pull: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pull
• Knockback: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Knockback
• Stun: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun

Same with block: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Block

Same with Reflect: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reflect

and so on.

Please take a look at the plethora of abilities in game across all the various classes that enable you to counter rapid fire.

Also please note that a Ranger can interrupt their own Rapid Fire. For example, if you come at me with a Warrior Eviscerate, I’m going to dodge that. I don’t want that damage to land in my face.

You still aren’t understanding what I am saying. By saying “there is a plethora of abilities to counter RF,” you are suggesting that all classes/builds have access to that plethora at all times. The reality is that there are few builds that offer more than 1 or 2 extra counters to RF other than dodge, and RF has a much shorter cooldown than nearly all of those counters. LOS is not an adequate counter to rely on since you aren’t going to have access to it all the time because it’s entire reliant upon the terrain, and because you can move while channeling RF; The ranger can simply move around any obstacle while channeling RF.

@Crapgame:
And again, the ability to dodge does not negate my point, because RF is the only high damage channeled attack in the game that requires you to dodge twice to avoid the full damage.

I’ll repeat myself for the hundredth time: RF is not the most Op ability, but it does need some changes to it’s mechanics to bring it in line with the rest of the high damage channeled attacks in the game.

Actually, a Pistol+Shield with Toolkit (taken in most builds these days) can laugh their head off at a Longbow Ranger’s Rapid Fires:

• Toolkit—Gear Shield: 3s block, 20s cooldown
• Toolkit—Magnet: pull (interrupt), 25s cooldown
• Shield—Magnetic Shield: 3s rect, 30s cooldown
• Shield—Static Shield: Block + Stun

Special Mention to Elixir Gun auto-attacks applying Bleeding and Weakness with their auto-attacks … making longbow even less effective.

Replace that shield with a Rifle and you lose those last two, but you gain a single ability with half the cooldown:

• Overcharged Shot: Knockback (interrupt), 15s cooldown.

@Gern:
They don’t need access to all of those at all times. They only need access to 2 that they can rotate. They have more than that unless they chose one of the few builds with completely no defenses AND no mobility … also known as a bad build.

<edit>
Compare to other channeled abilities?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Channeled_skill

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unload
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire

Unload regenerates its 5 initiative in less than or equal to time than the 8s a traited Rapid Fire is off cooldown.

Unload does ((101 + (0.3 * AtkPow)) * 8 ) = 808 + (2.4 * AtkPow) … in only 1.5s as well …

• so 808 / 1.5 = 538.67
• 2.4 / 1.5 = 1.6
• So you get 538.67 + (1.6 * AtkPow) DPS

Rapid Fire does 1320 + (3.75 * AtkPow) from a 2.5s channel

• so 1320 / 2.5 = 528
• 3.75 / 2.5 = 1.5
• so you get 528 + (1.5 * AtkPow) DPS

Unload can be used more often and it has higher DPS. This leaves only one advantage to Rapid Fire and that is Range.

Are you going to now tell us that this change is warranted for Dual Pistol Thieves as well?

<edit 2>
Follow-up questions:

If it is so powerful, why do we not see more Dual Pistol thieves given how strong it supposedly is?

If it is so powerful, why do we not see it in the tournaments? When there is money on the line, teams will take any advantage they can find (outside cheating).

Taking donations for buying another character slot so I can make a character named “Math Hammer” :-p

-magnet pull has the same cast time as RF, making it completely useless as a counter to RF
- Overcharged shot only has a range of 400. If the ranger is using RF at a range of 400 he is doing it wrong anyways.

Also, all those counters are also counters to all other high damage channeled attacks as well, except unlike every other high damage channeled attack: RF can be channeled while moving, tracks the target (once again, RF itself tracks, not the arrows), and has a 1200/1500 range. Yet, despite these drawbacks of all those other high damage channeled attacks, no one claims they are under-powered.

Also, once again, I am proposing a BUFF to RF’s damage at the expense of it losing the ability to be cast while moving, and it become an AOE attack instead of single target tracking attack.

Cmon stop this thread. LB really works well against engies, and the OP happens to be one.

Coincidence? I think not.

To be honest, its engies that need rework not rangers.

Please see my previous post.

Actually, when someone is close to you is still a fine time to use Rapid Fire if you don’t think you’ll be dodging soon. Rapid Fire’s damage is not affected by the distance from your target.

Magnet is 1.25s. Rapid Fire is 2.5. That is not the same cast time.

Please give us an actual competitive build that doesn’t have defenses against Rapid Fire.

StickerHappy.8052:

Cmon stop this thread. LB really works well against engies, and the OP happens to be one.

Coincidence? I think not.

To be honest, its engies that need rework not rangers.

I will not disagree with you on the point that engi needs a major rework, but unlike Ranger: engi needs mostly nerfs (especially to turrets). Whereas, nearly every ability a ranger has needs a buff.

@Sebrent:

The issue, as I have said multiple times, is not builds having no counter to RF other than dodge, but that due to the short cooldown of RF compared to nearly all these abilites, coupled with the fact that you have to dodge twice to avoid the full damage of RF means that you are either going to have to eat at least one RF at some point during a fight, or that you are going to leave yourself very vulnerable to the rest of the ranger’s damage at some point of the fight. Almost no other high damage channeled attack puts this much pressure on you.

Once again, I am proposing a BUFF to RF’s damage at the expense of it losing the ability to be cast while moving, and it become an AOE attack instead of single target tracking attack. Bringing it in line with every other high damage channeled attack.

Not going to touch on the math countering your earlier point about channeled abilities and rapid fire?

I disagree that “nearly every ability a ranger has needs a buff”.

Do some? Definitely.
Do “nearly all”? I think that’s a gross exaggeration.

Sebrent.3625:

Not going to touch on the math countering your earlier point about channeled abilities and rapid fire?

I disagree that “nearly every ability a ranger has needs a buff”.

Do some? Definitely.
Do “nearly all”? I think that’s a gross exaggeration.

No, I am not a mathematician. Also, your numbers don’t hurt my argument, they show that RF is only slightly less damage than unload, and I have said several times that RF should get a damage buff with the other changes I suggested.

perhaps that last part is an exaggeration. But I think that both the vehement defense of RF that you continually get from rangers, and the fact that a ranger using anything other than LB is truly a rare sight in any game format, show that rangers are severely lacking in effectiveness in their other abilities and weapons.

If you think there is a shortage of ranger running anything other than Longbow, then I don’t think your eyes are open a good bit of the time :-p

There are several of us running around with some combination of Axe/Sword/Shortbow/Dagger/Torch. In fact, we’ve been successfully running condition specs with those since well before (see: “years”) the buff to Longbow.

The discussion isn’t so much a “vehement defense” against the idea of changing Rapid Fire much as taking issue with the complete lack of facts used to support:
(1) Why the change is warranted.
(2) How the suggested change is an actual improvement.

You say that classes don’t have defenses … we list a large number of counters.
You say that there are builds with none of those defenses … we ask for such a build.

Do you see the issue?

Also, do you know what a Longbow Ranger often hates to see in-game? A condition spec’d Ranger coming at them.

Many people use longbow, because it fits their view of ranger as an archer the most, and not because it is so “OP”. And various variants of condi ranger (without lb) are pretty common too.

And just because other skills from other classes work in different ways, it does not mean, rangers skills have to be the same. Different classes, different weapons, different strenghts and weaknesses, thats how it is and how it should be.

+1 UmbraNoctis.

Otherwise … give me Warrior’s ability to regenerate health with their Signet and class mechanic … I’d love that on my Ranger :-)

To get close to that I have to invest 6 points in Beastmastery for Natural Healing, wear Cleric’s/Apothecary’s, slot Signet of the Wild in a utility, and find some way to get Regeneration (Dwayna Runes work).

Gern.2978:

@Crapgame:
And again, the ability to dodge does not negate my point, because RF is the only high damage channeled attack in the game that requires you to dodge twice to avoid the full damage.

Maybe, but I believe we are splitting hairs if truth be told. You don’t need to dodge twice. In fact, you don’t need to dodge even once. It just depends on how you want to start the dance, er, fight. Agreed? Dodge is just the go-to mechanic of the game regardless of meta/content played.

Part of me just think this is a reaction thing. Sort of like hitting the oh-kitten button? I am setting you up here but are you saying that a Rangers rapid fire will place the opponent in a downed state if he/she gets the first strike?

I play a necro, guardian, and ranger and I’ve yet to be placed into a downed state upon any rangers initial opening strike(s). To include entangle, RaO, with RF mixed in and seeing sigil of air/fire proc. It just does not do that kind of damage to anyone not running WvW in their skivvies or upscaled.

I’ll repeat myself for the hundredth time: RF is not the most Op ability

,
We agree

but it does need some changes to it’s mechanics to bring it in line with the rest of the high damage channeled attacks in the game.

We disagree here. There are just too many mechanics in the game to mitigate its damage. Furthermore the ranger has to make some pretty interesting trait, gear, and sigil choices for it to do maximum damage + range yet leaves them pretty defenseless.

It is just one mans opinion. Just like it is mine in that I don’t think it is right or just for you to come in this particular forum and champion a change such as you suggest. But maybe I am being a bit unfair by saying that.

Crapgame.6519:

Gern.2978:

@Crapgame:
And again, the ability to dodge does not negate my point, because RF is the only high damage channeled attack in the game that requires you to dodge twice to avoid the full damage.

Maybe, but I believe we are splitting hairs if truth be told. You don’t need to dodge twice. In fact, you don’t need to dodge even once. It just depends on how you want to start the dance, er, fight. Agreed? Dodge is just the go-to mechanic of the game regardless of meta/content played.

Part of me just think this is a reaction thing. Sort of like hitting the oh-kitten button? I am setting you up here but are you saying that a Rangers rapid fire will place the opponent in a downed state if he/she gets the first strike?

I play a necro, guardian, and ranger and I’ve yet to be placed into a downed state upon any rangers initial opening strike(s). To include entangle, RaO, with RF mixed in and seeing sigil of air/fire proc. It just does not do that kind of damage to anyone not running WvW in their skivvies or upscaled.

I’ll repeat myself for the hundredth time: RF is not the most Op ability

,
We agree

but it does need some changes to it’s mechanics to bring it in line with the rest of the high damage channeled attacks in the game.

We disagree here. There are just too many mechanics in the game to mitigate its damage. Furthermore the ranger has to make some pretty interesting trait, gear, and sigil choices for it to do maximum damage + range yet leaves them pretty defenseless.

There are fewer ways to mitigate RF than any other high damage channeled attack, with perhaps the exception of Unload, because all the others can be mitigated by simply moving out of their area of attack or dodging once (whereas you have to dodge Rf twice)

Crapgame.6519:

.. I don’t think it is right or just for you to come in this particular forum and champion a change such as you suggest….

What on earth are the forums for then?

There are plenty of AoE attacks that you cannot mitigate all their damage with a single dodge. You can’t just move out of the area without taking damage. Zerk Staff Ele hurts in WvW. Big deal. What’s the difference?

Engineer whines about Ranger lol Are you kidding me? lol
Dont make me whine about all of those super neat skills you have.

OP just wanna be invincible with no counter from any class, that is all.
Which is why i super love to pawn these egoistic engineer with my pew pew ranger. Yahoo~~

Eng can decap and bunking in a point so good and that is why exist a class called ranger to smoke you out from capping a point. So stop this whining and please kiss the ground with my arrows on your head =)

Gern.2978:

Crapgame.6519:

Gern.2978:

@Crapgame:
And again, the ability to dodge does not negate my point, because RF is the only high damage channeled attack in the game that requires you to dodge twice to avoid the full damage.

Maybe, but I believe we are splitting hairs if truth be told. You don’t need to dodge twice. In fact, you don’t need to dodge even once. It just depends on how you want to start the dance, er, fight. Agreed? Dodge is just the go-to mechanic of the game regardless of meta/content played.

Part of me just think this is a reaction thing. Sort of like hitting the oh-kitten button? I am setting you up here but are you saying that a Rangers rapid fire will place the opponent in a downed state if he/she gets the first strike?

I play a necro, guardian, and ranger and I’ve yet to be placed into a downed state upon any rangers initial opening strike(s). To include entangle, RaO, with RF mixed in and seeing sigil of air/fire proc. It just does not do that kind of damage to anyone not running WvW in their skivvies or upscaled.

I’ll repeat myself for the hundredth time: RF is not the most Op ability

,
We agree

but it does need some changes to it’s mechanics to bring it in line with the rest of the high damage channeled attacks in the game.

We disagree here. There are just too many mechanics in the game to mitigate its damage. Furthermore the ranger has to make some pretty interesting trait, gear, and sigil choices for it to do maximum damage + range yet leaves them pretty defenseless.

There are fewer ways to mitigate RF than any other high damage channeled attack, with perhaps the exception of Unload, because all the others can be mitigated by simply moving out of their area of attack or dodging once (whereas you have to dodge Rf twice)

Crapgame.6519:

.. I don’t think it is right or just for you to come in this particular forum and champion a change such as you suggest….

What on earth are the forums for then?

Dodge.
Class specific – I believe a couple engineers replied that you have kits to address.

How is that different than say a Guardian who can dodge or toss wall of reflection? Yes, they have to have the skill optioned to use, but that is the same for all classes. Choose skill, trait. The list has been posted several times to include the use of NPC’s, ambient creatures, dead yaks, your bestie, block mechanics, etc. It is a level playing field for all.

Also, you didn’t actually answer my question. Is rapid fire going to put someone in a downed state that isn’t in their skivvies or upscaled? The answer is no. People are making rapid fire seem like it is a magic missile that will hit you regardless of counter measures by the target. It just isn’t so.

Forums are to do whatever you want. My point I guess is that you could take this to the bug forum or your engineer forum. One to ask if it is a bug or state it is a bug and the other one to seek assistance or vent from your peers. I for one do not go to the engineer section when I lose to one belly aching about how OP I think they are or how I don’t like where they store some of their turrets.

Someone mentioned unload from thief in good measure, i mean you can trait to pay the initiative cost, virtually making it spamable and you can trait to make it aoe, how does that not equate? If you can’t deal with a rapid fire every 10/8(traited) sec, that ranger deserves the win tbh.

We can also compare with warrior’s Rifle Volley on 10/8 sec + kill shot, we’ve all seen a mesmer insta killing someone with a Greatsword… FROM STEALTH.

If these complaints to make a nerf happen… what? Give longbow it’s irrelevant nature from previous patches?

May i remind you the obscurity of longbow in the recent past. The only viable build with a bow, was shortbow+gs for the Daze/Stun increase trait, and we all know how exactly strong is that build.

Edit: even with using an asura specifically for tecnobabble, to make it remotely viable and that’s WvW scenario only obviously.

even builds without any of the counters to RF can beat a RF ranger. all they have to do is double dodge towards the ranger That’s it. You then have 8 seconds to close the now smaller gap and force a weapon switch. If the ranger switches, you will now have a minimally traited melee weapon to deal with. If they dont switch, run circles around them. RF goes into cooldown when the target moves behind/beside the ranger, and the auto attack will be weaker as well.

At the end the OP was right, the class need some balance. Better melee skills and more utilities within the weapons.
RF is fine like it is right now.

StickerHappy.8052:

Cmon stop this thread. LB really works well against engies, and the OP happens to be one.

Coincidence? I think not.

To be honest, its engies that need rework not rangers.

They’re really not though… LB is only good against bad engi’s.
A good engi can completely shrug off rapid fire multiple times with the shield reflect, shield interrupt, tool kit block, tool kit pull, crate interrupt, using crate turrets for LoS, stealth before the channel, invulnerable from elixer s, and the list goes on…

A longbow ranger has to seriously outplay an engi to win. The ranger needs to figure out what kits the engi is using and draw out his stun breaks so that the ranger can CC and burst the engi down. If the ranger just yolo’s in with rapid fire a good engi will counter it and either melt him with condi’s or destroy him with a static discharge build.

I found a pretty good instructional video for players like the OP who choose not to use any of the blocks/interrupts/etc. available to them. It’s pretty short, I strongly urge you to check it out.
https://youtu.be/kvS6zMThiZU

wow, i wish i werent at work right now so i could actually check this thing out

Crapgame.6519:

Dodge.

You keep saying that, ignoring what I have said concerning it: RF is the only high damage channeled attack the requires you to dodge twice to avoid the full damage (with the exception of perhaps Unload). That, coupled with the range of the ability and it’s ability to track the target mean that there are fewer ways to counter RF than any other High damage channeled attack (except maybe unload). Because in addition to all the ways you have said to mitigate RF, other high damage channeled attacks can also be mitigated by dodging only once, or simply walking outside of their attack area.

Crapgame.6519:

Class specific – I believe a couple engineers replied that you have kits to address.

How is that different than say a Guardian who can dodge or toss wall of reflection? Yes, they have to have the skill optioned to use, but that is the same for all classes. Choose skill, trait. The list has been posted several times to include the use of NPC’s, ambient creatures, dead yaks, your bestie, block mechanics, etc. It is a level playing field for all.

I don’t understand what you are saying here. I never said that engineers have a harder time against rangers, and I understand all the ways engineers have for countering RF. As I have said multiple times: this post isn’t an “OMG Rangers are too OP agains’t engineers! Nerf now pls!!!” kind of thread.

Crapgame.6519:

Also, you didn’t actually answer my question. Is rapid fire going to put someone in a downed state that isn’t in their skivvies or upscaled? The answer is no. People are making rapid fire seem like it is a magic missile that will hit you regardless of counter measures by the target. It just isn’t so.

I never said that it is. I have said multiple times that RF is not the most OP ability in the game, I have even said several times that I think it could use a damage buff with the changes I have suggested. I definitely over-exaggerated the abilities of RF in my original post, and I do regret that. But I have clearified my position in the subsiquent posts of this thread.
Of course RF will not put someone in the downed state from full HP, unless they are full zerker. But neither will even 100 blades do that, and yet everyone feels just fine with the restrictions placed on 100b, which are very similar to the restrictions I have proposed for RF.

Crapgame.6519:

Forums are to do whatever you want. My point I guess is that you could take this to the bug forum or your engineer forum. One to ask if it is a bug or state it is a bug and the other one to seek assistance or vent from your peers. I for one do not go to the engineer section when I lose to one belly aching about how OP I think they are or how I don’t like where they store some of their turrets.

This thread isn’t about engineers, so it makes no sense to post it there, and it’s obviously not a bug. I don’t even know where you are getting this. Putting this thread in either of those sub-forums is completely out of place, and would only result in the thread being moved to the ranger-sub forum anyways. This isn’t a “bellyaching” thread, it’s a thread meant to post and discuss my suggestions for changes to Rapid Fire, which is exactly what these forums are for: Discussing the game and suggesting changes to it.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

There are plenty of AoE attacks that you cannot mitigate all their damage with a single dodge. You can’t just move out of the area without taking damage. Zerk Staff Ele hurts in WvW. Big deal. What’s the difference?

I would very much like to know which abilities you are talking about, because I have never encountered any other attack that I have to dodge twice to avoid the full damage except RF and the occasional Unload. Also, the damage of ele’s is pretty irrelevant to this argument. I know there are plenty of other classes/abilities that are more OP than RF, and I have said that several times. We can talk about changes to a specific class/ability without it being the most OP ability in the game.

Rangers are not warriors and rapidfire is not 100b, those skills don’t have to be the same (or similar) to be balanced.

So it isn’t OP, you want the damage to be increased, you agree it can be dodged or mitigated by class abilities, LoS, friends, NPC’s, ambient creatures, dead yaks, or any number of other things I may have left off.

The issue you are raising is because it works differently than any other channeled skill, correct?

Even though the ranger gives up defense to increase the range and damage. I mean, we throw survivability out the window for that increase range and damage, agreed?

Crapgame.6519:

So it isn’t OP, you want the damage to be increased, you agree it can be dodged or mitigated by class abilities, LoS, friends, NPC’s, ambient creatures, dead yaks, or any number of other things I may have left off.

The issue you are raising is because it works differently than any other channeled skill, correct?

Even though the ranger gives up defense to increase the range and damage. I mean, we throw survivability out the window for that increase range and damage, agreed?

I never said it can’t be dodged, but unlike all other similar abilities (except unload) you have to dodge twice. That, along with it’s range even at 1200, make it slightly more OP than every other high damage channeled attack (except perhaps Unload) With the changes I suggested, it would still work differently than all other high damage channeled skills because of it’s range. I am not saying it needs to be identical to all other similar skills, just that it should be restricted in similar ways. I never even suggested that you need to increase it’s range to 1500 to make it viable (because that’s not true); even at 1200 range RF still has fewer ways to counter it than any other high damage channeled attack (except perhaps Unload)

Now you are making a pretty gross exaggeration. Rangers hardly give up all defenses to increase the power of RF. Like thieves, rangers form of survival is avoiding damage. Thieves do it through the use of stealth, stuns and blinds, rangers do it though their range, knock-back, stun, daze, root, cripple and stealth. None of which I am suggesting A-net nerf. I have even suggested that A-net BUFF some of these abilities.

I am not unfamiliar with rangers abilities, or how to play one. I have a ranger, as I have at least one of every class. All of which I play regularly in every game mode with a multitude of builds.

Let’s compare hundred blades to Rapid Fire a bit more indepth than your simple “they are both channeled damage dealing abilities”.

Hundred Blades (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hundred_Blades)

• 1,571 + (4.21 * Pow)
• Final hit for 410 + (1.10 * Pow)
• Channel over 3.5s

DPS = { (1571 + 410) + ([4.21 + 1.10] * Pow) } / 3.5
= {1981 + (5.31 * Pow)} / 3.5
= 566 + (1.52 * Pow)

Rapid Fire (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire)

• 1,320 + (3.75 * Pow)
• Channel over 2.5s

DPS = { 1320 + (3.75 * Pow) } / 2.5
= 528 + (1.5 * Pow)

So:

• Similar DPS, though Hundred Blades is a decent bit more.
• Hundred Blades does more damage overall.
• Hundred Blades has a base cooldown that is 2 seconds less
• Hundred Blades can crit several times, stacking with its trait to gain Might
• Hundred Blades can cleave up to 3 targets.

100b is not countered by trees, stones, uneven terrain, grass, …
100b can not be reflected back into the warriors face (sadly )

I’d argue that those are balanced by Hundred Blades being melee :-p

But, yes, they are quite different and Hundred Blades can be used more often and hits harder. Could argue it has more synergy with its class as well.

Gern.2978:

Sebrent.3625:

Arc Lightning. It is a constant … as opposed to a 2.5s channel that can be cast every 8 to 10s at most … so 10.5 to 12.5s. It’s not interrupted by their other damage which has no telegraph and simply smacks you in the face.

It also stacks with their abundance of ways to proc on-crit.

Let’s look back at counters to Rapid Fire:

• Daze
• Stun
• LOS
• Block
• Reflect
• Dodge
• Invuln

Plenty of ways to mitigate Rapid Fire. We don’t need to add “move slightly to the side” to this list.

A buddy of mine was trying Dagger+Pistol Thief. He didn’t know what to do about Rapid Fire at first and died to it quite a bit. Then I pointed out to him that his #4 is an interrupt and it was never an issue again. Add to that that his Steal dazes and it’s even less of a problem.

Later he was trying Sword+Dagger Thief. He can still daze with steal every ~21s so roughly every other Rapid Fire and can easily LOS with intelligent use of Infiltrator’s Strike/Return.

Mesmer has daze via shatters and plenty of weapons also interrupt in one way or another.

Warrior has plenty of blocks as well as interrupts depending on their weapon sets.

… and the list goes on and on.

Complaining about Rapid Fire is like complaining about conditions when you don’t bring any condition removal.

At least it does its damage with a telegraph and over 2.5s from an interruptible channel. There are other abilities with no telegraph that do the damage instantly and from range.

I very much disagree. Yes there are ways to mitigate RF, but no build/class has access to even half of those abilities at any given time, let alone all of them at all times as everyone seems to be making it sound. In fact, given the short cooldown of RF, you are realistically only going to be able to counter the first RF, you then have to eat the second or dodge twice to avoid it, which then leave you having to eat all the rest of the ranger’s damage.

Im not saying that RF is the most OP ability in the game, only that it needs changes to it’s mechanics, and a damage buff, in order to balance it out with other high damage channeled attacks.

Yeah and guess what? you are not supposed to be able to avoid every single bit of damage in this game, seriously stop crying about this kitten rapid fire is fine and needs no changes there’s a kittening million ways to counter it wich has been pointed out over and over to you stop crying you moron!

I have said more times than I can count that RF should get a damage buff to accompany the other changes I suggested. Comparing it’s current damage to the damage of 100b is irrelevant.

I don’t care if you buff Rapid Fire’s damage if that now means a person can simply side-step to avoid the damage. Then we are left with another Greatsword Maul … does great damage, but it is stupid easy for people to avoid it.

As shown several times now … there is already an extensive list of ways/abilities to avoid Rapid Fire damage. You haven’t addressed those other than saying that not all builds have all of them. I asked you, “okay, give us a build”. You have still failed to do that.

I don’t see how the damage of hundred blades is irrelevant when you keep citing hundred blades as a similar skill and why rapid fire should be changed due to how it is different from hundred blades.

You can’t just simply say “this thing I’ve brought up several times … your data on it is irrelevant” … please, explain why it is irrelevant.

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t care if you buff Rapid Fire’s damage if that now means a person can simply side-step to avoid the damage.

I don’t see how the damage of hundred blades is irrelevant when you keep citing hundred blades as a similar skill and why rapid fire should be changed due to how it is different from hundred blades.

You can’t just simply say “this thing I’ve brought up several times … your data on it is irrelevant” … please, explain why it is irrelevant.

I’ve brought it up because they already serve similar purpose; they have similar damage and similar cool-downs with the same channel time. So, I have simply suggested making their mechanics similar as well. You can mitigate the damage of 100b already by “simply sidestepping” but no one cries about 100b being underpowered. Despite having this mechanic, 100b is still an exceptionally viable skill. I only use 100b as a baseline, because nearly every other channeled high damage skill is restricted in an identical manner as 100b.

Yes, there is an “extensive” list of ways to mitigate the damage of RF. But, because of it’s current mechanics, that list is still shorter than every other channeled high damage attack (except perhaps Unload).

And those channeled high damage abilities do more damage as a tradeoff. That is not irrelevant information.

I’m still waiting to see what viable build you come up with that has no defense against Rapid Fire.

Manekk.6981 also made a good point … you aren’t supposed to be able to avoid all damage someone throws at you.

Sebrent.3625:

And those channeled high damage abilities do more damage as a tradeoff. That is not irrelevant information.

That’s why I said Rf should do more damage as well.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m still waiting to see what viable build you come up with that has no defense against Rapid Fire.

I never said that there is one.

Sebrent.3625:

Manekk.6981 also made a good point … you aren’t supposed to be able to avoid all damage someone throws at you.

The changes I proposed wouldn’t allow a person to avoid all the damage for the same reason that the same mechanics currently don’t allow a person to avoid all the damage of 100b, pistol whip, or blurred frenzy.

We don’t care if Rapid Fire does more damage if at the same time, players are going to be mitigating more of Rapid Fire’s damage … yay, 15% dmg increase … but people are dodging 25% of the damage now by simply moving out of the AOE … that is a loss.

You did say there are builds that don’t have defenses.

The comment about people not being able to avoid all damage isn’t about your suggestion. It is about your complaints about how dodging and other mitigations don’t mitigate all of the rapid fire damage in some situations or how rapid fire’s cooldown means you then need something else to mitigate it again for subsequent casts of rapid fire.

If there isn’t a viable build that doesn’t have counters to rapid fire … why in the world do we have this large thread you created to continuously harp on the idea that you think Rapid Fire needs to be changed despite not having any solid point presented as to “why”.

There is absolutely no reason to give two different skills of two different weapons from two different classes with completely different mechanics the same (or similar) restrictions, just because a few things are not so completely different.

And if it is the mechanic, that makes rf so op, why aren’t similar skills (yea, rf is not the only high dmg ranged channeled skill) like volley or unload not op? Or do you want to nerf those op rifle warriors and p/p thiefs too?

Run into a Volley Thief that is taking as many traits as they can to gain extra Initiative. It gets stupid real quick. If you think Rapid Fire traited to have an 8s cooldown is a pain in your butt … oh man.

Amusingly, if you don’t run into PvP with the mentality of “More DPS solves everything”, even the Unload isn’t insurmountable. It’s just a heck of a lot more coming at you than a Ranger can do with Rapid Fire.

I guess at the end of the day this is what I’m really struggling with the OP or any other champion of rapid fire changes.

1. You can dodge – once, twice, or even three times if weapon swap.
2. You have reaction time – even the full hit won’t take you down standard level 80 implied
3. Class abilities, friends, foes, NPC’s, ambient creatures, LoS, all negate it to 0

Furthermore, rapid fire is not:
1. A magic missile
2. Sure fire hit
3. A nuclear bomb

On top of that a Ranger who gears, traits, selects food and sigils for maximum damage and range in PvP or WvW will have less defenses. We do not have 6/6/6/6/6 builds nor can we select all the cool abilities to get out of jail. Yes, I’ll probably take lightning reflexes. Maybe signet of stone and renewal. Entangle or Rampage as One. Hmm…I’d really like Sic’Em but I can’t have it.

Oh, also ask me how that 2300 or so armor is looking. Yeah, it isn’t much fun. Oh, that Warrior coming that CC’s me to no end, well yeah. Lightning reflex maybe. Or maybe I can swap out weapons to say GS and block a few things. Hmm…not so great after all but maybe I can swap to sword/dagger or something else. Yeah, right. I forgot that I was min/maxing and selected x/warhorn for that extra damage I was talking about earlier…

I actually make similar decisions on my Guardian. Do I go support and focus on group sustain or am I feeling a bit frisky today and selfish running that zerker build with triple meditations. Yeah, love that 14k health pool but boy can I open a can of whoop kitten at what, the risk of survivability Same as ranger or any other class.

We all have to make choices about what we are wearing, eating, using for traits, and placing on our skill bar(s). And I’m not even going to get into the fact that on every class there are people that play ok, others for fun and are average, and those in the upper bracket that play anything very well. So well that they make a ambient bunny seem over powered.

Those times you just have to accept they are better and take the respawn.

The ability itself is fine. What isnt fine is its ridiculous range. All the rangers just say omg just L2P you scrub. There is no counterplay to a ranger sitting on top a ledge where you cant reach him and doing 8k damage with 1 ability. Why are people even comparing unload or warrior rifle to rapid fire they are completely different when you have to be almost in someones face to channel them.

Sebrent.3625:

And those channeled high damage abilities do more damage as a tradeoff. That is not irrelevant information.

I’m still waiting to see what viable build you come up with that has no defense against Rapid Fire.

Manekk.6981 also made a good point … you aren’t supposed to be able to avoid all damage someone throws at you.

Tell that to S/D thiefs.

Loonita.7421:

The ability itself is fine. What isnt fine is its ridiculous range. All the rangers just say omg just L2P you scrub. There is no counterplay to a ranger sitting on top a ledge where you cant reach him and doing 8k damage with 1 ability. Why are people even comparing unload or warrior rifle to rapid fire they are completely different when you have to be almost in someones face to channel them.

Hmm, no counter play? Really? Who said you had to stay still and let the ranger hit you. Seriously, you can just walk away. No harm, no foul, no damage. If the ranger is on a stoop why just let him hit you?

Same rules of mitigation apply that we have all said before. Range doesn’t matter even if they are on a tower, ledge, wall, or horses back.

1. dodge
2. reflect
3. retaliate
4. line of sight
5. walk away – that is a new one

Yeah, thief with unload can do way more damage, then vanish in stealth for quite a while. With a full investment it is as damaging as RF but can be spammed at least 3 times. Like this. That is traiting for full DPS on one target, you can drop a point out of critical strikes and put it into Trickery and also make it an AoE attack.

Been a while since I’ve been on the forums. I see the longbow hate is still real.

Loonita.7421:

The ability itself is fine. What isnt fine is its ridiculous range. All the rangers just say omg just L2P you scrub. There is no counterplay to a ranger sitting on top a ledge where you cant reach him and doing 8k damage with 1 ability. Why are people even comparing unload or warrior rifle to rapid fire they are completely different when you have to be almost in someones face to channel them.

“omg just L2P scrub!”

Seriously though, the counterplay is called gap closers. Especially thief can easily close the maximum range in two seconds or less by just chaining Infiltraitor’s Signet and Steal together — a tactic I’ve often used when occasionally playing d/p thief. It has an effective range of 1800, so enough to be right up in a longbow ranger’s face.

And if they’re up on a ledge, you should be able to reach them. If the ledge was unreachable, the ranger wouldn’t have been able to get on there themselves, either. Sounds more like you’re trying to find issue with people who use positioning to their advantage and the fact that longbow rangers have the most range in the game. This is Guild Wars 2, not Melee Wars 2.

I, for one, am glad something like longbow ranger exists. I’m not surprised by how much hate it gets though. People always kitten on ranged classes/specs in MMO’s, usually because they prefer melee themselves while not being very good at it and/or think it’s “unfair” that their ranged opponent can start doing damage while still being at a relatively safe distance.

Gern.2978:

The reality is that there are few builds that offer more than 1 or 2 extra counters to RF other than dodge, and RF has a much shorter cooldown than nearly all of those counters.

You can’t be serious. Show us a decent build, no matter the class, without 1 or 2 extra counters (wich means avoid + mitigate) to RF in their own rotation :

- vigor + all traits, skills, runes and sigils wich relies on dodge mechanic
-evade
-block
-reflect
-immunity
-stealth
-knockdown
-knockback
-stun
-daze
-fear
-pull
-blind
-confusion
- weakness
-shadowstep
-teleport
-toughness
-aegis
-protection
-retaliation
-movement skill
-ground targeted skill
-healing skills

I missed something ?

Few builds ? The truth is that every decent build have even more then 1 or 2 extra couters. Come on, show us the build you’re talking about, please.