Guild Wars 2

Sina.9208:

Why aren’t the runes Smoldering + Malice? Is there a sigil interaction that I fail to see? Or is it that easy to hit the personal condi cap?

The burning is already +95% duration without a sigil, so you may as well have sigils to buff the bleeding and apply more.

I’m referring to the one with Agony/Earth or Geo/Balthazar runes.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Sina.9208:

Why aren’t the runes Smoldering + Malice? Is there a sigil interaction that I fail to see? Or is it that easy to hit the personal condi cap?

The burning is already +95% duration without a sigil, so you may as well have sigils to buff the bleeding and apply more.

I’m referring to the one with Agony/Earth or Geo/Balthazar runes.

Okay but why? The majority of the dps comes from burning, why not buff that any more? Wouldn’t this be the best way to max sustained dps, or is there a hardcap on duration?

Sina.9208:

Why aren’t the runes Smoldering + Malice? Is there a sigil interaction that I fail to see? Or is it that easy to hit the personal condi cap?

Condi duration caps at 100%. Certain traits can bypass the condi cap. Trapper’s expertise is actually one of them, but sharpened edges is far more damage which is why it gets taken in this build.

jewishjoyride.4693:

Sina.9208:

Why aren’t the runes Smoldering + Malice? Is there a sigil interaction that I fail to see? Or is it that easy to hit the personal condi cap?

Condi duration caps at 100%. Certain traits can bypass the condi cap. Trapper’s expertise is actually one of them, but sharpened edges is far more damage which is why it gets taken in this build.

Ty! (I’m very inexperienced with condi builds)

So let’s assume that I’m using the 36% duration budget pizza & don’t use the tryhard crystal with balthazar runes, then agony + smoldering is the best combo, because that way only 1% burning duration is wasted, yes?

Sina.9208:

jewishjoyride.4693:

Sina.9208:

Why aren’t the runes Smoldering + Malice? Is there a sigil interaction that I fail to see? Or is it that easy to hit the personal condi cap?

Condi duration caps at 100%. Certain traits can bypass the condi cap. Trapper’s expertise is actually one of them, but sharpened edges is far more damage which is why it gets taken in this build.

Ty! (I’m very inexperienced with condi builds)

So let’s assume that I’m using the 36% duration budget pizza & don’t use the tryhard crystal with balthazar runes, then agony + smoldering is the best combo, because that way only 1% burning duration is wasted, yes?

No, smoldering still isn’t optimal. put the geomancy sigil on. Most dungeon fights are very short. Geomancy front loads more damage than the smoldering sigil.

Yup, plus geomancy is 3 stacks AoE and can also apply an extra bleed from Sharpened Edges.

The next tier down pizza and crystals are perfectly fine for this build, the damage loss is negligible, put the data into the build editor and see the difference, it is almost a waste of time using the expensive stuff, unless you have that OCD for build min/max perfection as I do sometimes.

How about smoldering + geomancy then? :P

Sina.9208:

How about smoldering + geomancy then? :P

You’d still only be getting 5% additional duration to your burn, +20% to your splitblade/sharpened edges bleeds is far better.

jewishjoyride.4693:

No, smoldering still isn’t optimal. put the geomancy sigil on. Most dungeon fights are very short. Geomancy front loads more damage than the smoldering sigil.

This is an important point to these condition builds. DPS is a single number we’re using as shorthand for comparison. Condition damage needs time to ramp up so is actually three numbers – the rate at which it ramps up, the time it takes to finish ramping up, and the final level when it’s finished ramping up. (Actually the last can be derived from the first two, and the damage level will fluctuate after it’s ramped up depending on the individual skill durations, but let’s ignore that.)

The DPS given for condition builds is usually the steady state damage after it’s completely ramped up. For most (short) fights you’ll never get to that point, so is not really an accurate measure for comparison.

• Additional condition damage increases the rate of ramp-up, and the damage level after it’s finished ramping up. It does not affect time to finish ramping up.
• Additional stacks increase the rate of ramp-up, and the damage level after it’s finished ramping up. The time to finish ramping up increases slightly (if the stacks are from an extra skill), or not at all (if the stacks are from an effect that would happen anyway like crits or weapon swap).
• Additional duration increases the damage level after it’s finished ramping up, but increases the time it takes to ramp up. It does not increase the rate of ramp-up.

So don’t just look at the DPS figures. Go for extra duration if you want to use the build against bosses or champion mobs with lots of hp (though honestly most dungeon bosses die quicker than this will matter). Go for extra damage (higher condition damage, more condition stacks) if you want the build to have more bite earlier in the fight.

Play around with it and you’ll be able to find a good balance. I’m finding that the 13 second duration to Bonfire is overkill in most cases. I’ve been playing around with different foods. Mainly the steaks ( +power +CD – the level 70 version is only 24 copper).

The mushrooms ( +CD +precision for 30 sec after a kill) are interesting too. Don’t attribute too much to the +precision. It’s just a little more than 3% crit rate, which with Sharpened Edges works out to just 2% more trait bleeds. Pretty negligible. But it’s cheap – 82 copper for the level 80 version, and gives +200 CD, +70 precision. With 1800 CD, that’s about 10% more CD DPS that you don’t have to wait to ramp up. (With less than 1800 CD in a hybrid build, it’s an even bigger percentage increase.)

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You’d still only be getting 5% additional duration to your burn, +20% to your splitblade/sharpened edges bleeds is far better.

You can’t compare percentages of different things like that. You need to apply it to the base durations before comparing. In other words, how many seconds does it increase the burn, vs. how many seconds does it increase the bleed. (Then you need to multiply that by the burn DPS or bleed DPS.)

Solandri.9640:

The DPS given for condition builds is usually the steady state damage after it’s completely ramped up. For most (short) fights you’ll never get to that point, so is not really an accurate measure for comparison.

This is untrue for the most part. People will often look at the prettiest number and repeat it, like you see people quoting Engi’s 21k dps which is only achievable at like 45-60s, at 30s you’re at like 19.4k if I’m remembering the people who did the math correctly.

Most of the regular maths people for GW2 have a standard of “30s fights”, you go to the Heart of the Mists and record a 30s fight, then you write down all the abilities used (video used to prove it’s possible and not just theoretical, so aftercasts don’t screw up what you thought would work and all). Then you do the math. This is why again for the case of Engi it’s quoted as “Condi Engi will outdps a Power Engi after 14seconds”, because it takes 14s to have that slower ramp up balance out.

So people aren’t looking at the max rolling dps, but they are factoring that ramp up into a 30s fight, or at least the regular math people are (all the DnT people using the magnificent Dekeyz’ spreadsheet for example).

Solandri.9640:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You’d still only be getting 5% additional duration to your burn, +20% to your splitblade/sharpened edges bleeds is far better.

You can’t compare percentages of different things like that. You need to apply it to the base durations before comparing. In other words, how many seconds does it increase the burn, vs. how many seconds does it increase the bleed. (Then you need to multiply that by the burn DPS or bleed DPS.)

I think you have it wrong, he’s not talking about damage or dps or duration of individual abilities, he’s simply talking about your condition duration “stat”. With Balth runes you’re at 55% burning. You add 40% food you’re at 95%, add a toxic tuning crystal and you’re at 105% and 5% over the cap. Drop to normal tuning crystal and 36% food you’re sitting at 91% and you’d not want to grab a 20% burning wasting 11% of it.

However go with the Nightmare rune combo or 4X + 2X trapper you’re going to be at 25% to everything. With 40% food that’s 65% to everything, with 10% tuning, 75% to everything, leaving you 25% to work with and I’d think either smoldering or agony (or malice) would be solid (unless I’m missing something).

So if you go Balth you grab Agony for sure. If you go with the nightmare combos, then you should be able to go either way.

And I do want to say I totally agree with the rest of your post, there is value in damage over duration even if it doesn’t win out in the long run, many fights aren’t anything you could call long and having a bit more oomph to start isn’t bad even if it’s not huge, which is why I prefer the 5 Nightmare + Antitoxen/Chrysblahblah Jewel over the 4X Nightmare + 2X Trapper option.

Scales, bottom is w/ 36% food and normal tuning crystal, top is 40% food with 10% tuning crystal

• Balth+Agony: 91-100% burning, 56-70% bleeding
• Balth + Smolder: 100% burning, 36-50% bleeding
• 4X Night 2X Trap + Agony: 61-75% Burning, 81-95% bleeding
• 4X night 2X Trap + Smolder: 81-95% burning, 61-75% bleeding
• 4X night 2X Trap + Malice: 71-85% burning, 71-85% bleeding
• 5X Night 1X Antitox + Agony: 51-65% burning, 71-85% bleeding
• 5X Night 1X Antitox +Smolder: 71-85% burning, 51-65% bleeding
• 5X Night 1X Antitox +Malice: 61-75% burning, 61-75% bleeding

So finished my ascended sinister the other day and gave this build a go around silverwastes.

The deeps is crazy, like insane. Especially for aoe. You are just face melting groups of husks in literally seconds with 10 stacks of burning.

It’s really quite boring though. And I think that is because you play in melee range without any melee weapons.

I think I would be prepared to sacrifice some DPS to play this with shortbow, just so I’m not standing still in fire fields.

Otherwise I’m switching back to melee zerker.

I’ve found it quite active. Not only is it just strait up more active as far as ability usage But, I think movement is certainly something you should do with it. You have the freedom to toss axes from range, though you want to be close for Splitblade, Bonfire, and Flame Trap, so it’s a bit of in and out dancing between ranges. I mean no reason to sit in melee range when you don’t need to, but then you don’t want to waste a strike of Splitblade or miss on a bonfire/flame trap.

Honestly this is a build I’ve been waiting for to really like ranger. Just always hated sword, now things seem quite interesting. Micromanaging the pet while you swap on cooldown for quickness, swap weapons on cooldown to manage cooldowns. And some utilities on top. The only downside is it doesn’t seem to have as much leeway in alternatives to slip in more utility type things like the Axe offhand reflect for example or dagger offhand evades.

Solandri.9640:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You’d still only be getting 5% additional duration to your burn, +20% to your splitblade/sharpened edges bleeds is far better.

You can’t compare percentages of different things like that. You need to apply it to the base durations before comparing. In other words, how many seconds does it increase the burn, vs. how many seconds does it increase the bleed. (Then you need to multiply that by the burn DPS or bleed DPS.)

Yes, I know because I did that.

Adding 5% burn duration is far less damage than +20% bleed duration.
5% burn duration adds 0.15s additional burn to the base duration of 1 bonfire, adding +20% bleed duration adds 1.2s to 10 bleed stacks from splitblade (twice per rotation) as well as 2s to 3-6 stacks from the geomancy sigil. It also adds 0.6s to each stack from Sharpened Edges.

So, to bonfire, 5% duration will add 0.15s per burn stack, which at 1750 condi damage is 60dps, x9 that equals 540 damage over the duration of 1 rotation or weapon swap.

Adding Agony to Splitblade is 1.2s for 10 bleed stacks over the same time, which is 12 additional bleed ticks. 12 × 126 (1750 condi dmg) = 1512 damage increase over the same duration. Not including the Sharpened Edges or Geomancy damage increase which is just gravy.

Edit: I forgot to put in Throw Torch as well here, but even with that included, agony is still better.

So, has this been tested enough in dungeons/fractals?

Yes that was stated near the beginning of the thread.
Open world solo DPS appears to be way higher though.

Jerus.4350:

Solandri.9640:

The DPS given for condition builds is usually the steady state damage after it’s completely ramped up. For most (short) fights you’ll never get to that point, so is not really an accurate measure for comparison.

This is untrue for the most part. People will often look at the prettiest number and repeat it, like you see people quoting Engi’s 21k dps which is only achievable at like 45-60s, at 30s you’re at like 19.4k if I’m remembering the people who did the math correctly.

Most of the regular maths people for GW2 have a standard of “30s fights”, you go to the Heart of the Mists and record a 30s fight, then you write down all the abilities used (video used to prove it’s possible and not just theoretical, so aftercasts don’t screw up what you thought would work and all). Then you do the math. This is why again for the case of Engi it’s quoted as “Condi Engi will outdps a Power Engi after 14seconds”, because it takes 14s to have that slower ramp up balance out.

So people aren’t looking at the max rolling dps, but they are factoring that ramp up into a 30s fight, or at least the regular math people are (all the DnT people using the magnificent Dekeyz’ spreadsheet for example).

Solandri.9640:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You’d still only be getting 5% additional duration to your burn, +20% to your splitblade/sharpened edges bleeds is far better.

You can’t compare percentages of different things like that. You need to apply it to the base durations before comparing. In other words, how many seconds does it increase the burn, vs. how many seconds does it increase the bleed. (Then you need to multiply that by the burn DPS or bleed DPS.)

I think you have it wrong, he’s not talking about damage or dps or duration of individual abilities, he’s simply talking about your condition duration “stat”. With Balth runes you’re at 55% burning. You add 40% food you’re at 95%, add a toxic tuning crystal and you’re at 105% and 5% over the cap. Drop to normal tuning crystal and 36% food you’re sitting at 91% and you’d not want to grab a 20% burning wasting 11% of it.

However go with the Nightmare rune combo or 4X + 2X trapper you’re going to be at 25% to everything. With 40% food that’s 65% to everything, with 10% tuning, 75% to everything, leaving you 25% to work with and I’d think either smoldering or agony (or malice) would be solid (unless I’m missing something).

So if you go Balth you grab Agony for sure. If you go with the nightmare combos, then you should be able to go either way.

And I do want to say I totally agree with the rest of your post, there is value in damage over duration even if it doesn’t win out in the long run, many fights aren’t anything you could call long and having a bit more oomph to start isn’t bad even if it’s not huge, which is why I prefer the 5 Nightmare + Antitoxen/Chrysblahblah Jewel over the 4X Nightmare + 2X Trapper option.

Scales, bottom is w/ 36% food and normal tuning crystal, top is 40% food with 10% tuning crystal

• Balth+Agony: 91-100% burning, 56-70% bleeding
• Balth + Smolder: 100% burning, 36-50% bleeding
• 4X Night 2X Trap + Agony: 61-75% Burning, 81-95% bleeding
• 4X night 2X Trap + Smolder: 81-95% burning, 61-75% bleeding
• 4X night 2X Trap + Malice: 71-85% burning, 71-85% bleeding
• 5X Night 1X Antitox + Agony: 51-65% burning, 71-85% bleeding
• 5X Night 1X Antitox +Smolder: 71-85% burning, 51-65% bleeding
• 5X Night 1X Antitox +Malice: 61-75% burning, 61-75% bleeding

“With Balth runes you’re at 55% burning” My Balth runes must be some budget versions, because I only get 45% burning with the full set. With the 36% food & no tryhard crystal (dungeon potion, or skale venom) I’m at 81% & because of that I very strongly feel that the extra 19% from smoldering is worth it. I had 9800+ burn ticks in fractals yesterday..

Added a picture to show how it looks like WITHOUT smoldering on. (don’t mind the low condi dmg & QZ, they aren’t relevant for this discussion :P)

I just can’t add up 3 numbers my bad >.<