Guild Wars 2

Hello,
i want to start this discussion here because, as i said in another thread, hunter comunity is the best but this problem regards very class.

Condition build are OP in hearth of the mist…
That’s all, ill explain why…
if you play hearth of the mist you will notice that the most different thing from WvW and open world is that your equip is forced in some standard settings and you can’t go for a “middle” class but there are some few basic amulets that makes condition build OP.
That’s because if you go for full zerker gear… you can get it also in hearth of the mists… but you will be squishy as a normal zerker build in WvW (maybe a bit more resistente due to vitality) but if you go for a full condition build you can get a toughness/condi/healing trinket which makes you… unbeatable !!(also cond/tough/prec)

if you want to go for a full zerker gear you get low defense but good damage… if you go for a full condition you get incredible defense, incredible hp, incredible damage (due to condition spam) and so OP.

I also know that condition builds are weak in pve and in wvw but in this situation if you want to play in Hearth Of The Mists there are only 2 choice for you:
1) play full zerker warrior (or full zerker thief) and hope to kite someone before anyone starts to spam you with condition
2) play full condition build and be god among mortals…

ill suggest to remane that place “hearth of the condition” … at least you are prepared to be destroyed.

what do you think about?

ps: sorry for grammar

Condition specs are also extremely strong in WvW. My only addition to this thread. I’ll be uploading a video of me using a trap build exclusively in WvW with great success. I called this well before the meta in pvp went to condi as condis are just so powerful on paper (have always been) and it just took time for people to understand how to utilize them properly.

Indoles.1467:

Condition specs are also extremely strong in WvW. My only addition to this thread. I’ll be uploading a video of me using a trap build exclusively in WvW with great success. I called this well before the meta in pvp went to condi as condis are just so powerful on paper (have always been) and it just took time for people to understand how to utilize them properly.

in wvw unless you are playing against a not organized zerg it’s really hard to keep up your condition for 2 reasons:
1) massive aoe condition remover
2) because your party members will overwrite your condition with their…

anyway a good necro can keep up some condition… but not as much to kill anyone.

In HotM instead condition build are really op!
1)you heave too many toughness to simply get downed
2)your damage is high as a berserker build
3)there are only few enemies per fight and so there are enough cond removal to block you

what’s the sense to play in HotM if you can only go for a condition build? Look at gw2 tournament… how many non condition build can you find? 1? 2? only because they are zerker warriors or zerker thief… that’s all… if you don’t like condition you are out… if you like them you will easy win. the end.

Now you are comparing zerg warfare to a small scale sPvP combat, both are fundamentally different.

If you compare 1v1 combat in sPvP and WvW you will notice that condi specs are strong in WvW.

Taku.6352:

Now you are comparing zerg warfare to a small scale sPvP combat, both are fundamentally different.

If you compare 1v1 combat in sPvP and WvW you will notice that condi specs are strong in WvW.

when i think to “WvW” i think to zerg vs zerg… anyway the problems is the same:
1vs1 → cond build → winner
zerg vs zerg → cond build → loser
the problem is that hearth of the mists is an entire area for 1vs1 (or simply small team) fights… so HotM is a place ruled by condition builds… so it’s better to remove non condition build items from vendors…

Not sure if serious.

I think both builds can be good just depends on the class, build, and the player behind the keyboard.

Puandro.3245:

Not sure if serious.

… do you think to be able to kill a full condition engineer (for example) ?
with 1800 toughness, 20k hp, 1400 condition damage and 40%+ crit change ? i don’t think there is a full zerker warrior who’s able to kill it…. the only way is to go for another full condition build… and hope.

Not zerker warrior but…New Skull Cracker Warrior? Yea, for sure

In WvW when you do ~5v5 conditions can be very usefull, but against an organized guild with shout warriors and guardians, then just do some scratches.

In PvP I completelly agree, condition builds is the best you can get.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Taku.6352:

Now you are comparing zerg warfare to a small scale sPvP combat, both are fundamentally different.

If you compare 1v1 combat in sPvP and WvW you will notice that condi specs are strong in WvW.

when i think to “WvW” i think to zerg vs zerg… anyway the problems is the same:
1vs1 -> cond build -> winner
zerg vs zerg -> cond build -> loser
the problem is that hearth of the mists is an entire area for 1vs1 (or simply small team) fights… so HotM is a place ruled by condition builds… so it’s better to remove non condition build items from vendors…

you need more time in WvW, and try out a few more builds…
For most classes, your thesis would be spot on. But rangers are in a sweet spot. Out conditions, doesnt last very long (if going for condition burst), but they hit kitten hard. They also double as combo fields (torch 5). Which means you can provide AOE might to party. If you add ontop of this, the ridiculous toughness and healing you can get from apoth. You will realize that not only are you viable as a zerg unit, you’ll be extremely strong in a roaming/havoc setting too.

All you have to do, is adjust your “role” depending on the situation. If zerging, stay a few step back, support, don’t stay on the front lines. If roaming, kill all that moves.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Puandro.3245:

Not sure if serious.

… do you think to be able to kill a full condition engineer (for example) ?
with 1800 toughness, 20k hp, 1400 condition damage and 40%+ crit change ? i don’t think there is a full zerker warrior who’s able to kill it…. the only way is to go for another full condition build… and hope.

Condi engis are a PITA and 1 of the best 1v1 builds but not impossible to kill. If i wanted to win 100% of the time i would bring my phantasm mesmer out and kill him, its basically impossible to lose as a phantasm mesmer unless you mess up.

Condi engis #1 counter is a condi Necro, or hell just a power necro with condi transfers. But the best counter to condi necros is a stun warrior so…… funny how things work huh :P.

Prysin.8542:

you need more time in WvW, and try out a few more builds…
For most classes, your thesis would be spot on. But rangers are in a sweet spot. Out conditions, doesnt last very long (if going for condition burst), but they hit kitten hard. They also double as combo fields (torch 5). Which means you can provide AOE might to party. If you add ontop of this, the ridiculous toughness and healing you can get from apoth. You will realize that not only are you viable as a zerg unit, you’ll be extremely strong in a roaming/havoc setting too.

All you have to do, is adjust your “role” depending on the situation. If zerging, stay a few step back, support, don’t stay on the front lines. If roaming, kill all that moves.

“you need more time in WvW, and try out a few more builds…”
I take it as an insult… because WvW is my second home and i have 4 pg lvl 80 and tried every single class in almost every single build in Hearth of the Mist…

anyway i’m not talking about condition ranger… or engineer… i’m talking about “condition builds” in general: OP, no more to say.
Their utility in WvW is very low due to massive condition removal and other player’s conditions… but in spvp there is nothing which can kill a condition build (except another condition build). Do you like to use condition build?
“if yes you can actually win… if not i’m sorry but hearth of the mists isn’t viable for you”
that describes the actual situation in hearth of the mists.

And, also a “skull crack” build can’t kill a full condition engineer you forget that “this” engineer has 2x invulnerability, 1800+ toughness, regenerations and protections (it’s an elixir build of course) so the combo “skull crack” + “hundredblades” is like fresh water and if you do 3-4k damage is a great thing (over 20+k hp)…

and i say this only because (as i said over) i tried almost every viable build… so i well know skull cracker and elixir engi…

ps: and those “only 4” pg that i have to lvl 80 had tested more build, in more situation, than a build editor…

Puandro.3245:

If i wanted to win 100% of the time i would bring my phantasm mesmer out and kill him, its basically impossible to lose as a phantasm mesmer unless you mess up.

are you sure? what kind of phantasm build are you using (off topic)? because if it’s the regular phantasm build you have no chance against a full condition build (unless the enemy can’t find you… but so we are talking of skill) simply because phantasm damage is low and will really be too low on an enemy with 1800toughness and 20k hp and simply because mesmers haven’t ways to remove condition (except null field… with a 40 sec cd)… also just today i killed in hearth of the mists a phantasm mesmer with my ranger (not condition build) without any difficulty at all simply because i know mesmer class and i can avoid almost everything except the gs spam… which is pretty boring

The better phantasm builds designed for duels/1v1 generally run sword/pistol and either scepter/sword or GS. I prefer the sword/sword and scepter/torch (or pistol) because I feel the iswordsman is one of the best single target pet harrassers in the game and having a block on each weapon set works extremely well for me, plus stealth – more stealth.

Traited properly, phantasms can do serious damage (up to +40% more than typical phantasm and have perma Fury), but the real danger to them is the ridiculous amount of evades, stealths, and combat mobility mesmers have access to. A good phantasm mesmer will generally do what he needs to to avoid your attacks at all cost while pooping out phantasms as fast as possible. Can’t apply conditions unless your attacks hit. I run condi removal in my build, but you are right, many don’t, and I feel that’s a weakness, but in wvw many run melandru runes (or air) and lemongrass soup in the current meta.

Gaiawolf.8261:

The better phantasm builds designed for duels/1v1 generally run sword/pistol and either scepter/sword or GS. I prefer the sword/sword and scepter/torch (or pistol) because I feel the iswordsman is one of the best single target pet harrassers in the game and having a block on each weapon set works extremely well for me, plus stealth – more stealth.

Traited properly, phantasms can do serious damage (up to +40% more than typical phantasm and have perma Fury), but the real danger to them is the ridiculous amount of evades, stealths, and combat mobility mesmers have access to. A good phantasm mesmer will generally do what he needs to to avoid your attacks at all cost while pooping out phantasms as fast as possible. Can’t apply conditions unless your attacks hit. I run condi removal in my build, but you are right, many don’t, and I feel that’s a weakness, but in wvw many run melandru runes (or air) and lemongrass soup in the current meta.

mmm… nice idea… but almost every phantasm build i see uses GS… anyway ill try that later on my mesmer (maybe if you can send me your trait build in private message so we don’t go off-topic).

Anyway, yes i’m talking about spvp because in open world it’s easy to put on melandru/hoellbrak + food to greatly avoid condition damage… but what can you do in hearth of the mists?

also… a good suggestion to remove condition build power would be to introduce foods also in hearth of the mists!

Condition builds are actually stronger in WvW than sPvP due to conditikn duration food.

Anyways a mesmer will play keep away with phantams and remove any condis with mantras NP. Sure most mesmers dont run them but they have them for use and they are not bad. You think phantams dont hit hard but they do.

Puandro.3245:

Condition builds are actually stronger in WvW than sPvP due to conditikn duration food.

Anyways a mesmer will play keep away with phantams and remove any condis with mantras NP. Sure most mesmers dont run them but they have them for use and they are not bad. You think phantams dont hit hard but they do.

that’s partially right… in wvw you have 40% cond duration with food but enemies have -40% cond duration from food… so this is a nox-existent advantage…
while this advantage is false… there is a great disadvantage: toon of condition removal and being destroyed if under massive attack…
infact also a condition build with 2000 toughness and 20k hp will die in a moment if attacked by 5 players… so the damage deal is low (few moments before die aren’t enough to get damage from conditions) and sometimes it’s 0 (especially if you are against an organized zerg with water/light fields).
But the situation really changes when you are 3vs3 or even 5vs5 because you get enough defense to survive a full enemy team attack… and at the same time only 5 enemies can’t be enough to remove conditions aoe (except if you are playing in tPvP where you can find some well organized teams).

so the conclusion is only one:

• do you want to play in Hearth of the Mists? choose a class with a strong condition build or go home.

i don’t know if i’m the only here who hate condition builds… but to have a “only condition” place (like HotM) is really frustating :<

2 main counters to condis, 1) Vitality (more health less they can do) and 2) Condi removal, both of these are very common on the lords of conditions, aka necromancers, which is why they are VERY hard to kill via conditions!

As a ranger I’d suggest using something like Knights, or Carrion, or Soldiers (oh look mg favorite sets xD) because of how awesome they are against condi builds, and keep in mind the counter to MOST condi builds, is a condi build, they normally use Rabid gear AKA no health bar gear, and generally don’t bring their own condi removal, which is why the meta is so big on condi builds…

Long story short, run a lot of vitality, 20 in NM can be a life saver (Evasive Purity), burst normally won’t counter a condi build, go for heavy sustain.

Its NOT overpower.
LOT of classes can counter this kind of ranger, one of them necromancer, want another? Guards; Another one? Elementalist.
You will not be a god on WvW nor SPvP, the problem is: MOST people just dont care about condition removal skills/traits/etc.
When In fact you play with someone that knows how to play against this you will see how useless you can turn in lots of situations on a 1vs1 battle.
I know you probably kill most of necros and guard you see, but most part if not all is because of the reason I stated above.
Condition Warriors AND thieves (now with torment) can be as much OP as a ranger too.
So I dont see the reason to this kind of thread, wanting what? To nerf a already hard to play class? We are getting better and I hope it continues that way.

Wraith.4103:

Its NOT overpower.
1)LOT of classes can counter this kind of ranger, one of them necromancer, want another? Guards; Another one? Elementalist.

2)You will not be a god on WvW nor SPvP, the problem is: MOST people just dont care about condition removal skills/traits/etc.
When In fact you play with someone that knows how to play against this you will see how useless you can turn in lots of situations on a 1vs1 battle.
I know you probably kill most of necros and guard you see, but most part if not all is because of the reason I stated above.
3)Condition Warriors AND thieves (now with torment) can be as much OP as a ranger too.
4)So I dont see the reason to this kind of thread, wanting what? To nerf a already hard to play class? We are getting better and I hope it continues that way.

man, be quite… my aim wasn’t to persuade devs to nerf condition builds… it’s only a thread i which we are talking about how simply is to use condition builds and win with them in spvp.
no aswering to you,
1) ranger is not the optimal condition class so it’s normal that a guardian/elementalist specced into condition removal can do alot… but it’s false to think that this is enough to stop a condition build… condition removers have a cd, most of conditions haven’t.
2)you will not be a god in WvW simply because of massive condition removal. While, you will be a god in sPvP simply because there are classes with low capacity to remove condition (also if specced into condition remover build)… so there is no way for them (and renger is one of them)
3)i never said that condition warrior/thief is weaker than ranger. Also condition thief is really really strong in sPvP but not so much as an engineer or a necro (both full condition).
4)actually…. condition build are really easy to play and i can confirm this since i always played engineer with low results in heart of the mists… then i decided to go for a condition build… i was devastating the Mists with my first match i get something like 270 points and 15+ kills… (and this was only an exemple… same thing appened with necro and thief)