Guild Wars 2

There is quite a bit that is not working in ranger’s favor such as pet AI, traits and some weapons too. However, I wanna bring attention to one particular issue which might be sometimes overlooked.

- Utilities need hard commitment into traits.

Almost every single utility needs like 30 points into 1 tier to be effective. (Do not even want to compare this to other classes like guardian, mesmer or anyone for that matter.) What does this do?

1) It pigeon-holes builds. You cannot variate anyhow if you are forced to take whatever you must for your utilities to work.
2) If you choose 1 route, you will most likely be unable to take anything else than survival utility. Example: playing 2 traps and 1 defensive signet (that would affect you) would require in total of 60 traits. Thus, you cannot go 1 signet and instead take survival utility or maybe ‘Protect Me’.
3) This would promote shouts, unfortunately, shouts are still in a bad place. (Even after Sick ’Em buff, just pop that ability and let your pet do his thing – see how much it does when chasing an enemy.)
4) If you do not commit 30 points for a utility, it just becomes bad. Trap, spirit or signets – just completely ineffective by themselves. Other classes mostly only make their utilities from good to better, whereas for ranger – bad to good.

How to solve this issue?

a) Merge traits
b) Move certain traits into lower tiers
c) Rework shouts / make shouts not only good for the pet (and then again if you want swiftness / regen buff – need 30 points)

Well, these are my thoughts. /discuss

Absolutely. This is probably one of the top 3 issues with this class. Not only do almost all of the utility skills need 30 pts in a tree before they’re worth a slot on our bar, but most of them are defensive in nature which only goes to make this class even more reactive and passive in nature.

Signets need to affect both the Ranger and the pet by default. The current method makes absolutely no sense. While switching the way Fortifying Bond works (so any buff our pet gets, we get) and making that give the activated signet effects to both would work and would actually be a great change to this class, I’m not sure any trait should be required to make it so a signet affects the entire class and not just its pet.

The same goes for Spirits. Without these things moving their value overall is very limited. Now there are 2 ways to solve this. You can either make them ground targetted so you can summon them wherever you want and the stay there. Then taking a trait would make them summon at your feet and move. Or you just allow them to move regardless. One of these 2 methods needs to happen though. The current implementation is excessive. While it would be nice if they automatically used their abilities on death, this is actually something worthy of a trait. But moving or just being able to use them effectively? Come on…

My other issue with utility skills and not one you specifically raised is with traps. While each have their own unique effect, Muddy Terrain, Spike Trap, and Frost Trap are all very similar traps. It’s unbelievable that you’d need a 30pt trait before Spike Trap immobilized its target. It’s also odd that this class would need all 3 of these in any situation. My preference to in resolving this issue is to simply remove spike trap. Make barrage a utility instead of a Longbow skill, and make it immobilize targets on the first wave and each wave of arrows apply a bleed to the target. I would also agree that without traits, the traps themselves are very ineffective. I think merging trappers expertise and potency to a single trait would be a great way to start fixing the absolute mess that is Ranger traits.

I agree with everything Atherakhia posted.

Atherakhia.4086:

My other issue with utility skills and not one you specifically raised is with traps. While each have their own unique effect, Muddy Terrain, Spike Trap, and Frost Trap are all very similar traps. It’s unbelievable that you’d need a 30pt trait before Spike Trap immobilized its target. It’s also odd that this class would need all 3 of these in any situation. My preference to in resolving this issue is to simply remove spike trap. Make barrage a utility instead of a Longbow skill, and make it immobilize targets on the first wave and each wave of arrows apply a bleed to the target. I would also agree that without traits, the traps themselves are very ineffective. I think merging trappers expertise and potency to a single trait would be a great way to start fixing the absolute mess that is Ranger traits.

Thanks for the good response.
About the part I quoted, I actually think that Spike Trap is the best from what you’ve mentioned. I just wish that immobilize duration actually scaled. But ya, Frost Trap is just horrible (it’s like ele staff’s ability except much worse?), Muddy Terain is okayish, however, doesn’t do damage and can’t be setup.
But all you said is true – too many similar abilities.

IMHO, the problem of ranger is wrong mechanics for mediun armor profession. Look at Thief, also profession with medium armor, but very nice and coherent mechanics, as example, playing as a Thief you can make a build with very high DPS and still survive by using stealth mechanics. If traited stealth gives to Thief a lot of healing, cleaning conditions per each 3 sec., +50% speed to run or keep distance. Also, stealth can be almost permanent. It makes good balance. Ranger can`t arrange the same balance in DPS and survival.
Now ranger isn`t “unparalleled archer”, it`s unparalleled tamer of pet`s AI.
I wouldn`t make changes in traits but remake some weapon skills.

Well, they kind of are. ^ Short sword/dagger gives you access to 3 evades. Great Sword gives you access to an evade (though kind of random), and a block. Short bow gives an evade, and long bow gives a stealth. We have it, its just lower damage. I’d agree we could use some more defensive cool downs though. I also agree the bows needs an upgrade. I know “Playing ranger doesn’t mean playing range”, but there is a solid majority of people that started a ranger with the idea of using a bow.

I think a lot of the points right. There are a variety of problems in the design of traps and trait lines. It isn’t just rangers who suffer from this. Thieves are even less likely to run with two traps than a ranger. Other classes also have utilities that are generally not worth a slot because they are only balanced when used with supporting traits.

My personal opinion is that these issues should be fixed but would be overlooked if the ranger utilities had better overall design. These are well known issues. Too many utilities are static and defensive. Spirits really need to work faster and more reliably. Shouts and signets are tied into pet problems. Etc.

I still don’t understand that Stooperdale. Ambush gives you a NPC thief who is very powerful, and Caltrops can be used WHILE in stealth and doesn’t take you out of it even when the enemies run into them. Leveling up my thief, I don’t see why they haven’t been using traps, they’re too good.

Hedgehog in the fog.1053:

Well, they kind of are. ^ Short sword/dagger gives you access to 3 evades. Great Sword gives you access to an evade (though kind of random), and a block. Short bow gives an evade, and long bow gives a stealth. We have it, its just lower damage. I’d agree we could use some more defensive cool downs though. I also agree the bows needs an upgrade. I know “Playing ranger doesn’t mean playing range”, but there is a solid majority of people that started a ranger with the idea of using a bow.

I agree, but “evades” useful during duel or sPvP, you need to see and react in time on enemy attak or it`s useless. But when you fight a group, especially large group at WvW it`s impossible to see all attaks of opponents and it`s just useless or spend for nothing and goes to CD very fast, also 1hS has root on your target, it`s not good. Long bow gives 3 sec. of stealth, but do not allow to escape demage from channeling skills and has no any boons to ranger, but to pet, lol. If it would give same 50% to speed or give healing or just allow to attack from stealth as thief`s stealth does, it would be nice. I say “archer” just coz it could be unique team role, now ranger hasn`t any one. As example, why warrior GS#2 100b has immobilize as a weapon skill and #2 of ranger`s GS or LB hasn`t? It makes demage “burst” very hard to use coz it`s easy to evade.

But those evades are incorporated into your general DPS routine. It works similar to D/D thief with blossom. I think in general there could be a lower cooldown on some of those moves, and yes we should be able to move with skill 1. But, we are not defenseless. As for longbow, I agree that the stealth should matter. I think the best way would be to change opening strikes to granting 3-4 seconds of quickness. You would have to invest in marksman, but it would give the longbow a big escape and burst ability (LB3, LB2 while running away). It would also make the opening strikes….well useful…. GS, yes GS2 should have a throwback, and GS3 should have a blind. We have a decent amount of immobilizes, they just aren’t connected to skills.

“I still don’t understand that Stooperdale. Ambush gives you a NPC thief who is very powerful, and Caltrops can be used WHILE in stealth and doesn’t take you out of it even when the enemies run into them. Leveling up my thief, I don’t see why they haven’t been using traps, they’re too good.”

Caltrops is not a trap but is a genuinely good utility without trait support. It is better than muddy ground. Shadow Trap, Ambush Trap, and Tripwire are all situationally useful, ambush trap can be used to level up, shadow trap is a stun breaker, but there is still absolutely nothing to be gained from a traps build. As you’ve spotted, very few thieves use traps and it isn’t because thieves are stupid, it’s because traps are just not good enough for general play. Both rangers and thieves don’t need four traps plus other trap-like skills as well, all competing for utility slots.

Stooperdale.3560:

“I still don’t understand that Stooperdale. Ambush gives you a NPC thief who is very powerful, and Caltrops can be used WHILE in stealth and doesn’t take you out of it even when the enemies run into them. Leveling up my thief, I don’t see why they haven’t been using traps, they’re too good.”

Caltrops is not a trap but is a genuinely good utility without trait support. It is better than muddy ground. Shadow Trap, Ambush Trap, and Tripwire are all situationally useful, ambush trap can be used to level up, shadow trap is a stun breaker, but there is still absolutely nothing to be gained from a traps build. As you’ve spotted, very few thieves use traps and it isn’t because thieves are stupid, it’s because traps are just not good enough for general play. Both rangers and thieves don’t need four traps plus other trap-like skills as well, all competing for utility slots.

Not to further derail a Ranger thread by talking about Thieves… I don’t know if it’s necessarily that Thief traps are bad or the simple fact that the Thief class actually has other valuable utility skills to choose from. I personally think a lot of the Thief traps are good but how can you justify using them instead of Shadow Refuge, Roll for Initiative, Shadow Step, etc etc. The Ranger on the other hand can summarize the vast majority of their utility skills with 3 letters …‘meh’.

Atherakhia.4086:

While switching the way Fortifying Bond works (so any buff our pet gets, we get) and making that give the activated signet effects to both would work and would actually be a great change to this class,

Fortifying Bond actually shouldn’t be a trait, it should be given to the ranger as a standard class ability. It’s a work-around for a limitation of the game engine. Buffs are limited to 5 targets, and prioritize players over pets. Parties are 5 players. So that means… your pet will never get a party buff in a full party unless you have Fortifying Bond.

Either they need to increase the buff limit to 5+n targets, where n is the number of rangers in the party. Or they need to give rangers Fortifying Bond’s effect as the default behavior for all builds. Forcing us to put 15 points into a trait line to fix a limitation of the game engine is just stupid.

I agree with you that after they do this, the trait that replaces Fortifying Bond should be one which gives any buff the pet gets to the ranger (except for same buffs from the same source). That would change the myriad skills which give things like might, fury, bleed, etc to the pet give them to the ranger as well.

vangedas.7358:

Thanks for the good response.
About the part I quoted, I actually think that Spike Trap is the best from what you’ve mentioned. I just wish that immobilize duration actually scaled. But ya, Frost Trap is just horrible (it’s like ele staff’s ability except much worse?), Muddy Terain is okayish, however, doesn’t do damage and can’t be setup.

Spike Trap is an instantaneous DD and (if traited) immobilize. It has no lingering effects despite the graphic sticking around for a second.

Frost trap and Muddy Terrain have lingering effects, and are area denial tools. You can drop them down and force your opponent to choose between entering the area and suffering the negative effects, or taking the time to run around the area.

Atherakhia.4086:

Make barrage a utility instead of a Longbow skill, and make it immobilize targets on the first wave and each wave of arrows apply a bleed to the target. I would also agree that without traits, the traps themselves are very ineffective. I think merging trappers expertise and potency to a single trait would be a great way to start fixing the absolute mess that is Ranger traits.

I agree with everything you say except the Barrage bit. I like having Barrage on my weapon skills; it’s one of the best weapon skills Ranger has. I wouldn’t want to have to use up a utility slot in order to use the only AoE Ranger weapon skill.

Spirits? I wanted to use them with the release of the game, and then I found that they weren’t very good. I finally decided on another build and retraited, and then they finally buffed the Spirits’ HP. I’d have to leave them where they are, now, if I used them, because the mobile trait requires so much investment. Or change my build again, which I’m not ready to do, yet. I’m tempted to say that they should move the mobile Spirits trait to 2nd tier.

ewhalen.8604:

Atherakhia.4086:

Make barrage a utility instead of a Longbow skill, and make it immobilize targets on the first wave and each wave of arrows apply a bleed to the target. I would also agree that without traits, the traps themselves are very ineffective. I think merging trappers expertise and potency to a single trait would be a great way to start fixing the absolute mess that is Ranger traits.

I agree with everything you say except the Barrage bit. I like having Barrage on my weapon skills; it’s one of the best weapon skills Ranger has. I wouldn’t want to have to use up a utility slot in order to use the only AoE Ranger weapon skill.

Spirits? I wanted to use them with the release of the game, and then I found that they weren’t very good. I finally decided on another build and retraited, and then they finally buffed the Spirits’ HP. I’d have to leave them where they are, now, if I used them, because the mobile trait requires so much investment. Or change my build again, which I’m not ready to do, yet. I’m tempted to say that they should move the mobile Spirits trait to 2nd tier.

Spirits are really good now, Storm Spirit hits like a truck. Anyway, point of the thread was that if you want to go spirits you have to commit hard and there is very little space for anything else..

I just wish the weapons also felt like it was more interactive.

I want there to be a reason for me to stealth with the long bow. I want my GS to make me feel powerful. Make it CC based, or make it damage based, something.

I always felt that the biggest problem with the ranger was its inability to “Have its cake AND eat it too” in comparison to other classes when it comes to trait effectiveness. More than any other class, with rangers you will find yourself compromising a major strength of your character in order to justify something else within it. This thread highlights the issue well.

That and the pet’s shameful inability to attack while simultaneously moving/lack of high speed charge-and-stun target lockdown skills on DPS viable pets.

Agree with everything!

I went survival, those utilities are in a good place. Cooldown reduction is easy to get too.

Rest I agree… kind of… other classes have similar complaints. It has to be balanced against knowing that Arenanet wants people unique instead of having everything from their class in one basket. So you are strong one way, but leave other stuff on the table. It does seem that some classes are ahead of others right now…

Rangers need a burst ability as well… As is we can do sustained dps, but don’t have an ability to burst, like every other class.

Atherakhia.4086:

My other issue with utility skills and not one you specifically raised is with traps. While each have their own unique effect, Muddy Terrain, Spike Trap, and Frost Trap are all very similar traps. It’s unbelievable that you’d need a 30pt trait before Spike Trap immobilized its target. It’s also odd that this class would need all 3 of these in any situation. My preference to in resolving this issue is to simply remove spike trap. Make barrage a utility instead of a Longbow skill, and make it immobilize targets on the first wave and each wave of arrows apply a bleed to the target. I would also agree that without traits, the traps themselves are very ineffective. I think merging trappers expertise and potency to a single trait would be a great way to start fixing the absolute mess that is Ranger traits.

Muddy Terrain isn’t a trap, its a Survival utility. That alone differentiates it a fair bit, as its (by default) ground targetable and works off a different set of traits. In a way its a trap for people who don’t trait for traps.

For Frost and Spike trap… they’re similar in their ability to slow enemies if that’s all you’re using them for, but they also offer their own unique aspects as well. Frost Trap is an Ice field and Chill slows down enemy cooldowns. Spike Trap does damage and bleeds. The two have some overlap in slowing enemies down, but not enough to justify needing to remove one or the other IMO.

As for the general idea that Ranger requires too many high-level traits for effective utilities… that I agree with. Most of the utilities get a HUGE boost from traits, require multiple traits to reach full power, and require 30-point investments in specific trait trees. Its too much, basically any path you go down requires full commitment or nothing. And where many professions get general powerful abilities for their 30-point investments what work relatively well with a number of setups, Ranger ends up with very strict ones that force certain utility setups to be worthwhile.

Its not even utilities either, building for your pet also requires a LOT of trait investment, even to the point where you literally can’t create a build that has access to every pet trait (at least I don’t think so).

Nice ideas. What do you think if we remove all traps for introduce a trap kit with 5 trap skill? introduce some kits could give more mechanics in our class.

I agree with the OP in every single point. traits should be revised.