Guild Wars 2

Let’s start by looking at the tooltips:

Shortbow: Crossfire (auto-attack)

• 134 Damage
• Bleeding (3s) (only if flanking)
• No cast/cooldown time, but we know it fires 2 times per second
• Projectile Finisher (20%)

Longbow: Rapid Fire (#2)

• 1,320 Damage over 10 hits
• 5s Channel … so 1 hit per 0.5 seconds (like shortbow’s auto-attack)
• Projectile Finisher (20%)

So we have 134 twice a second, so 134 * 2 = 268 damage per second.
Rapid Fire does its damage over 5 seconds, so 268 * 5 = 1,340

Yes, that’s 20 less damage than the Longbow’s #2 skill which is a channeled skill, has a 10 second cooldown, and does not apply a bleed when flanking the target.

Even if you traited for +5% longbow damage, Rapid Fire would only do 1,320 * 1.05 = 1386 … that’s only 46 more damage than shortbow’s auto-attack … and, again, Rapid Fire won’t bleed a flanked target and has a 10 second cooldown.

You can interrupt a cast of Crossfire (or be interrupted) without worrying about it going on cooldown. You would go on cooldown with Rapid Fire.

This is a large reason why Shortbow is considered superior to Longbow. Shortbow’s auto-attack alone does more than 40% (2/5) of the Longbow’s skills

Longbow can crit for 3.5-4k damage at 1500 units away drops mic and walks away

Using rapid fire at 1000+ range on the longbow is a DPS LOSS btw.

• 1,500 units away requires 20 points in Marksmanship
• 1,500 range on longbow takes up a slot better used for piercing arrows
• targets can easily side-strafe your shots at 1,500 range without any movement buffs
• the difference between 1,500 and 1,200 range isn’t as “wonderful” as people believe … especially since your arrows are so easily avoided.

Longbow has a good #3, #4, and #5 … #1 even has its fine points … but #2 is horrible

• #3 works very well with opening strike from you and your pet … cap vuln on a target for a few second. … though I’d prefer something other than swiftness for my pet …have that handled, but that’s personal preference
  • This is awesome with piercing arrows … try it out.
• #4 is a nice CC
  • This is awesome with piercing arrows … try it out.
  • I hate the 600 range though … on a longbow?! really?! … it’s the advantage concusion shot has over this
• #5 is a nice AOE damage and cripple
  • This is nice with sharpening stone for AOE bleeds … though why would you be taking condition damage with a longbow

• If you’re going to bring traits into the mix … why not sigils too … any on-hit or on-crit is going to be superior with the shortbow due to its superior rate of fire allowing for more hits/crits.

• Shortbow is already better damage than Rapid Fire BEFORE you factor in the bleeds.

Longbow’s Long Range Shot

• 1,000+ Range to Target: 317 damage … 317 / 0.75 = 422.66… dps
• 500 – 1,000 Range to Target: 229 damage … 228 / 0.75 = 304 dps
• 0 – 500 Range to Target: 177 damage … 177 / 0.75 = 236 dps
• 0.75s cast/cooldown
• Projectile Finisher (20%)

Shortbow’s crossfire, using the data above gives you 268 dps (without the bleed).

If you only use each weapon’s #1 auto-cast, the Longbow will beat the Shortbow under the following conditions:

• Not flanking the target (no bleeds for the shortbow)
• Target a 500+ Range
• You aren’t using on-hit/on-crit traits/sigils that would increase your damage

Now let’s tie in the skills that can be used “in parallel” with the auto-attacks.
For longbow, this is just Hunter’s Shot as it’s vulnerability can be on the target the longbow is auto-attacking.
For shortbow, this is Poison Volley and Crippling Shot as their condition damage can be ticking while the shortbow is auto-attacking.

Let’s assume 0 condition damage and +condition duration for simplicity.
Shortbow will have 3 bleeds on the target doing 43 dps with a 50% up-time as well as a poison doing 84dps with a 22% to 100% up-time.

• 3 bleeds * 43 = 129 dps … 129 * 0.5 = 64.5 dps
• 1 poison with 22% up-time 84 * 0.22 = 18.48 dps

So Shortbow is now 268 + 64.5 + 18.48 = 350.98 dps

Longbow gains 10% damage for 66% up-time will give a 6.6% damage bonus.
1,000 Range: 422.66 * 1.066 = 450.55…
500 – 1,000 Range: 302 * 1.066 = 321.932
0 – 500 Range: 236 * 1.066 = 251.576

Now the shortbow is winning at most ranges and this doesn’t include the use of any on-hit or on-crit sigils nor +condition damage.

Might, since it affects both power and condition damage, benefits the shortbow more than the longbow as well.

Do note, however, that the vulnerability from Longbow’s Hunter’s Shot will also increase the dps of your pet on the target. However, due to the variety of pets, I’m not going to crunch those numbers (at least not right now, lol).

Now, I will say that, after calculating the numbers again, that it isn’t quite as bad as many people claim it to be.

If you are not good at keeping the poison and bleeds on your target, longbow is not for you. This includes keeping your pet on the target so they can bleed it (aided by the fact that that same skill cripples your target).

If you are not good at keeping your target at over 500 range, shortbow is better for you.

If your target is a retaliation wielding monster, longbow is better for you.

Longbow suffers from a few things compared to the shortbow:

• Less effective with on-hit/on-crit
• #2 is useless … it’s only “useful” because Longbow’s #1 is horrible at below 500 range … it does less than shortbow’s auto-attack before bleeds, sigils, etc.
• No way to keep an enemy at range aside from a single knockback. There is no cripple nor chill aside from barrage which requires you to stand still for the channel which is longer than a single application of cripple from barrage.
• Shortbow scales better with Might than Longbow due to shortbow’s use of both direct and condition damage.

If you were to use Longbow, I would recommend CC pets (dogs and/or spiders) as well as traps and/or muddy terrain. Otherwise, you will likely be commonly forced to swap out your longbow as your enemy quickly realizes your favorite weapon and stays in your face.

I think the longbows spammable attack time is closer to 1.25s due to a bug.
Or at least rumor has it.

garethh.3518:

I think the longbows spammable attack time is closer to 1.25s due to a bug.
Or at least rumor has it.

If this is true then longbow is horrible.

garethh.3518:

I think the longbows spammable attack time is closer to 1.25s due to a bug.
Or at least rumor has it.

I can confirm it in my testing that the longbows autoattack is close to that if not exactly. I can only really do a stopwatch method so the number is probably more exact than mine, but it is definitely nowhere near what the tooltip indicates (it is definitely slower).

Based on just those 2 skills, it is skewed in favor of shortbow. But taking the 10 stacks of Vulnerability into the equation, it balances it out a bit, since you not only improve your own damage, but also of anyone attacking the target.

The closest SB has to a DPS “assist” is the poison from SB #2

jubskie.3152:

Based on just those 2 skills, it is skewed in favor of shortbow. But taking the 10 stacks of Vulnerability into the equation, it balances it out a bit, since you not only improve your own damage, but also of anyone attacking the target.

The closest SB has to a DPS “assist” is the poison from SB #2

Negative. You’re not taking into consideration that poison reduces healing by 33%. That’s extremely effective.

Also, you don’t always have other people to benefit from vulnerability you inflict on your target.

Sebrent.3625:

garethh.3518:

I think the longbows spammable attack time is closer to 1.25s due to a bug.
Or at least rumor has it.

If this is true then longbow is horrible.

I know, kind of ironic.
They had to rush out a fix for the shortbow spammable’s attack time in the first few months, a bug that no one knew existed… (and blundered it? into a nerf)
Yet longbow has this blarringly obvious 50% longer attack time bug and they don’t even care…

Oh Anet…

Sebrent.3625:

jubskie.3152:

Based on just those 2 skills, it is skewed in favor of shortbow. But taking the 10 stacks of Vulnerability into the equation, it balances it out a bit, since you not only improve your own damage, but also of anyone attacking the target.

The closest SB has to a DPS “assist” is the poison from SB #2

Negative. You’re not taking into consideration that poison reduces healing by 33%. That’s extremely effective.

Also, you don’t always have other people to benefit from vulnerability you inflict on your target.

How about improving your pet’s damage and giving it swiftness? Although we’re adding way too many variables already o_O

Sebrent.3625:

jubskie.3152:

Based on just those 2 skills, it is skewed in favor of shortbow. But taking the 10 stacks of Vulnerability into the equation, it balances it out a bit, since you not only improve your own damage, but also of anyone attacking the target.

The closest SB has to a DPS “assist” is the poison from SB #2

Negative. You’re not taking into consideration that poison reduces healing by 33%. That’s extremely effective.

Also, you don’t always have other people to benefit from vulnerability you inflict on your target.

To add to this response, shortbow also has a good cripple effect to reduce the opponent kiting, so more DPS, and the potential to interrupt the heal. Longbow can interrupt with the knockback, however, it is also a skill the forces positioning, so if you use the Knockback as interrupt, it can also interrupt the flow of DPS to the target by offsetting damage they are taking (knocking them out of an AoE for instance).

People who use knockback skills do this quite frequently in PvP situations and it is frustrating to no end when somebody decides they want to help the opponent by knocking them out of your traps, or away from you when you are trying to stomp.

Additionally, I’m not sure why anybody is surprised that a pressure weapon has more DPS than a (assumed) burst weapon. Of course the pressure weapon maintains a better DPS, that’s what pressure is… The bigger issue is whether or not the longbow can actually be considered to be bursting high enough for it to be considered a VIABLE burst weapon.

jcbroe.4329:

Sebrent.3625:

jubskie.3152:

Based on just those 2 skills, it is skewed in favor of shortbow. But taking the 10 stacks of Vulnerability into the equation, it balances it out a bit, since you not only improve your own damage, but also of anyone attacking the target.

The closest SB has to a DPS “assist” is the poison from SB #2

Negative. You’re not taking into consideration that poison reduces healing by 33%. That’s extremely effective.

Also, you don’t always have other people to benefit from vulnerability you inflict on your target.

To add to this response, shortbow also has a good cripple effect to reduce the opponent kiting, so more DPS, and the potential to interrupt the heal. Longbow can interrupt with the knockback, however, it is also a skill the forces positioning, so if you use the Knockback as interrupt, it can also interrupt the flow of DPS to the target by offsetting damage they are taking (knocking them out of an AoE for instance).

People who use knockback skills do this quite frequently in PvP situations and it is frustrating to no end when somebody decides they want to help the opponent by knocking them out of your traps, or away from you when you are trying to stomp.

Additionally, I’m not sure why anybody is surprised that a pressure weapon has more DPS than a (assumed) burst weapon. Of course the pressure weapon maintains a better DPS, that’s what pressure is… The bigger issue is whether or not the longbow can actually be considered to be bursting high enough for it to be considered a VIABLE burst weapon.

No love for Barrage?

Exactly what burst is longbow providing? It’s #2 “burst” skill is worse dps than the auto-attack of shortbow.

The only burst we had was sword + quickness and that got nerfed with the quickness nerf.

I still wish that Rapid Fire applied a condi on each arrow… Maybe bleeding, or cripple, or hell even more vuln would be nice!

And I need to check to see if longbow is really bugged with the 1skill, may need to bust out my slingshot if that’s the case…

If you can, please make a video for us, Durzlla. In other sections, we’re having great success with this.

I’ve seen a few videos, particularly those from Team Paradigm during the BWEs, where people record and then they transpose a timer. If anyone knows a good, free way to do this, please let me know. Video editing is not something I have experience with.

jubskie.3152:

jcbroe.4329:

Sebrent.3625:

jubskie.3152:

Based on just those 2 skills, it is skewed in favor of shortbow. But taking the 10 stacks of Vulnerability into the equation, it balances it out a bit, since you not only improve your own damage, but also of anyone attacking the target.

The closest SB has to a DPS “assist” is the poison from SB #2

Negative. You’re not taking into consideration that poison reduces healing by 33%. That’s extremely effective.

Also, you don’t always have other people to benefit from vulnerability you inflict on your target.

To add to this response, shortbow also has a good cripple effect to reduce the opponent kiting, so more DPS, and the potential to interrupt the heal. Longbow can interrupt with the knockback, however, it is also a skill the forces positioning, so if you use the Knockback as interrupt, it can also interrupt the flow of DPS to the target by offsetting damage they are taking (knocking them out of an AoE for instance).

People who use knockback skills do this quite frequently in PvP situations and it is frustrating to no end when somebody decides they want to help the opponent by knocking them out of your traps, or away from you when you are trying to stomp.

Additionally, I’m not sure why anybody is surprised that a pressure weapon has more DPS than a (assumed) burst weapon. Of course the pressure weapon maintains a better DPS, that’s what pressure is… The bigger issue is whether or not the longbow can actually be considered to be bursting high enough for it to be considered a VIABLE burst weapon.

No love for Barrage?

Barrage doesn’t function well at crippling targets in the way I am referring. In particular, Barrage functions much better as an area control tool, and it excels at that. However, if you wanted to stop a fleeing opponent, barrage doesn’t really work efficiently at that because of its channeling, and that it has that AoE indicator that everybody is so trained to dodge through, and each hit of barrage doesn’t apply a very long cripple (isn’t it just 1s?) meaning that a fleeing opponent can just dodge through it and continue going.

Sebrent.3625:

Exactly what burst is longbow providing? It’s #2 “burst” skill is worse dps than the auto-attack of shortbow.

The only burst we had was sword + quickness and that got nerfed with the quickness nerf.

I agree with you, I was actually trying to allude to that with my over-informative paragraph explanations of things lol.

Durzlla.6295:

I still wish that Rapid Fire applied a condi on each arrow… Maybe bleeding, or cripple, or hell even more vuln would be nice!

And I need to check to see if longbow is really bugged with the 1skill, may need to bust out my slingshot if that’s the case…

When I do a stopwatch timer, I consistently shoot 8 arrows over the course of 10s. Which means 1.25s. It’s unfortunate, and it leads me to believe (as it always has) that the longbow is bugged (I would rather it be bugged than the tooltip, because that would indicate an increase in firing speed on the autoattack as a fix).

Last time I tested it I came up with 1.2 – 1.25 seconds per arrow, with about 0.25 seconds in the animation unaffected by quickness. The main reason I was looking into it was because I noticed that QZ with the longbow only gave me one more arrow over its duration.

I have tested the longbow’s auto attack and yes, it’s 1.25s.
Just activate any instant utility that has a high cooldown and count how many arrows you fire. Higher cooldown means less room for mistakes. Anywho, when i tested it gave me exactly 1.25s.

EDIT: You know, if this really is just a mistake in ANETs part then that will explain the longbow being horrible. The longbow would deal 1.6x more damage if that were the case.

AlexRD.7914:

I have tested the longbow’s auto attack and yes, it’s 1.25s.
Just activate any instant utility that has a high cooldown and count how many arrows you fire. Higher cooldown means less room for mistakes. Anywho, when i tested it gave me exactly 1.25s.

EDIT: You know, if this really is just a mistake in ANETs part then that will explain the longbow being horrible. The longbow would deal 1.6x more damage if that were the case.

It would be nice, but I do remember there being a thread a while back that showed that about half the weapons autoattacks don’t match their tooltips. Ones I remember were Longbow on Warrior and Pistols on thieves/engis. I haven’t tested it for myself to confirm it, but I would be willing to believe that it is true lol.

Well I did a rough test on my laptop(can’t record on that, it’d be too stressful on comp), all I can say is it sure as hell wasn’t .75s… That being said I may start using my slingshot again, well, maybe, in PvE the barrage, vuln and KB are more than worth it to me, but in PvP… Well, that’s a different story…

Longbow will atttack with +10% dmg most of the time due to the vulnerability stacks. Also your data is a bit wrong because sb takes longer than 1 sec for 2 attacks actually. In the end direct DPS of rapid fire is slightly higher due to that without the +5% of the trait and the +10% od vulnerability already.

SB autoattack is its absolute damage cap, all other skills just lower damage. It makes sense that Rapid fire only deals equal damage. It is supposed to not drop DPS if targets are lower range and that is what it does. Stop saying it is bad. Hitting stealthed targets is just another huge plus.

ArenaNet has mentioned the longbow needs love. What do you think they were talking about then? eh?

Sebrent.3625:

ArenaNet has mentioned the longbow needs love. What do you think they were talking about then? eh?

They have said that longbow damage was in a good place (which i agree with) but it has like no survivability at all, which they want to fix, which will probably translate into some more CC on the longbow which will then translate to more damage due to more range.

Durzlla.6295:

Sebrent.3625:

ArenaNet has mentioned the longbow needs love. What do you think they were talking about then? eh?

They have said that longbow damage was in a good place (which i agree with) but it has like no survivability at all, which they want to fix, which will probably translate into some more CC on the longbow which will then translate to more damage due to more range.

Adding to this, I think a big issue with the game itself comes from the attack speed (not just the longbow, but ranged weapons in general). It makes sense that ranged weapons do less damage than melee as a risk reward factor, and it makes sense that melee characters get gap closers in order to combat against people who can stay at range. However, when three variables work together (movement speed, ranged weapons attack speed, and an opponents gap closing ability) it makes ranged weapons lose so much of their effectiveness, and not many classes have the skills on the weapon itself to be able to kite and counter this effectively.

In PvE, it isn’t really as noticeable (at least for me) because you can kite all day and make the ranged weapons more effective, but against other players a lot of ranged weapons lack the defensive capabilities that I am assuming the devs are referring to.

So as Durzilla said, and I am hoping, that we are on the same page with the devs on this one and the changes come to light sooner than later. Since there is no future content added to the site that announces it yet, I am hoping it is sooner.

Durzlla.6295:

They have said that longbow damage was in a good place (which i agree with)

Well, you’re one of few :/

The only thing I’ve seen longbow dmg as lately is either ‘standing in volley’ or ‘I am glad you are not any other weapon/class’.

Sebrent.3625:

ArenaNet has mentioned the longbow needs love. What do you think they were talking about then? eh?

The autoattack which is hard to hit on max range and to punishing on other ranges.

Long Range Shot almost definitely fires more slowly than it was balanced to fire, and moreover I think this issue affects many #1 skills across professions.

It’s due to the fact that the length of the animation (1.25 seconds) is significantly longer than the activation speed of the skill (.75 seconds). It seems to have balanced around the latter, but the latter is absorbed into the former, which is much slower. Therefore, it almost certainly is doing substantially less DPS than it’s supposed to be doing and is probably a huge chunk of the reason everyone screams about LB on the forums.

The same problem exists with the Warrior’s Dual Shot, as well as the Thief’s Trick Shot and Vital Shot, and most Staff/Scepter #1 skills and is probably responsible for the majority of balance problems that exist between weapons.

I thought I would like barrage, but on a zerg with retaliation it’s absolutely re—-ta——rded that using a single Barrage will wipe out 40% of my health because the retal tics are per waves and damage inflicted.

What people also don’t figure into evaluating rapid fire is that it has a start up animation before the shots fire, a dead space where you’re not auto-ing so you need to factor that DPS loss.

Rapid Fire seriously needs a damage increase or needs to deal the same damage over a shorter channel.

Long Range Shot, like mesmer greatsword, should entirely remove the lower range damage and just have the max damage be a bonus at 500+ range while a bit of increased medium damage range stays<500.

A large part of the issue with longbow as well is the lack of cripple, which means less pet uptime on moving opponents. pet swiftness will not make up for it, and it doesn’t help that pets stop in place to do attack animations and let opponents create distance they have to close again.

I will also say that despite whatever praise some people are offering the shortbow, I find its damage lacking completely against other classes like warrior and thief not only because shortbow doesn’t have built in bouncing like thief shortbow, but because the whole ideal “pet will make up for damage difference” doesn’t hold up as the pet dies in any zerg scenarion (on our servers we easily meet the majority of zergs at 40+ people), and if you are defending on a tower the pet won’t stand on a ledge with you and shoot from range because it doesn’t have the pathing or ai — so it sits there dumbly and you’re handicapped by 30-40% of your dps not being there.

Flanking is extremely easy with the Shortbow. Flanking doesn’t require back only, but back, and side. The side requirement is the key thing here. If you run in a semi circle around your target, you will gain flanking a large variety of the time. Give it a try sometime.