Guild Wars 2

Did Anet forget when they launched GW2 that one of their primary claims to fame was removing the “MMO Holy Trinity” of Tank, DPS, Healer?

Or did that concept go out the window somewhere and I missed it?

Control, damage, SUPPORT
/endthread

That was the same night they also claimed they wouldn’t add an awful gear grind, that we’d have these really personalized, branching stories, and that unlike other MMO’s we would effect things around us in a very permanent way. I think by now we all know they were just trying to get laid that night.

And to give them some credit, they delivered on the art and combat. The event system despite not being what they promised was a HUGE progress for the industry, the gear grind isnt as palpable and constant as the competing MMOs.

Their version of the trinity wont be as bad either.

Ariete.6509:

Control, damage, SUPPORT
/endthread

wel lrpoblematic thing is that this new “support” subclass in way of "supporting stuff has:
90% – heals
10% condi removals

kitten me If there are not quite a few not support focused builds on current base classes that have a way more variety of supporting abilities

[any guardian has already more variety no matter if he wants it or not, and pretty much any damage-support hybrid builds are giving out more support in more ways than heal spam and rare few condi removals….]

so if now AN is calling a specs that is farting heals removing some condis on rare ocasions and call it “heavy suport” the concerns of OP are totally justified

especially when in the same show they announce that they will bring, now officially undodge’able stuff on the table (to get rid of zerker mete – btw all daredevils out ther says thank you on that specific point because evades are primary and only way of defense of said specialisation but we are on ranger now sooooo :P)

I was refering to the moment when they said incoming stuff that players will not be able to shrug off “by simply evading it”

truth is that in current form druid IS a dedicated healer

and at some point 3 years ago they promised no dedicated healers…..

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Ariete.6509:

Control, damage, SUPPORT
/endthread

wel lrpoblematic thing is that this new “support” subclass in way of "supporting stuff has:
90% – heals
10% condi removals

kitten me If there are not quite a few not support focused builds on current base classes that have a way more variety of supporting abilities

[any guardian has already more variety no matter if he wants it or not, and pretty much any damage-support hybrid builds are giving out more support in more ways than heal spam and rare few condi removals….]

so if now AN is calling a specs that is farting heals removing some condis on rare ocasions and call it “heavy suport” the concerns of OP are totally justified

especially when in the same show they announce that they will bring, now officially undodge’able stuff on the table (to get rid of zerker mete – btw all daredevils out ther says thank you on that specific point because evades are primary and only way of defense of said specialisation but we are on ranger now sooooo :P)

I was refering to the moment when they said incoming stuff that players will not be able to shrug off “by simply evading it”

truth is that in current form druid IS a dedicated healer

and at some point 3 years ago they promised no dedicated healers…..

Thank you^

Agree with Lord Trejgon on this

Hold on here, lets think about this logically. When HoT is released, and everyone has their elite specializations, what is going to happen?

Chances are, people will pick and choose skills/weapons and traits that make the most sense for what ever the are doing.

With that said, lets look at the druid.
Lets say one wants to be a healer, they can do that by simply using the druid elite mechanic. they don’t even need to use the glyphs. this leaves 5 utility skills and a another weapon and even two more trait lines to choose from….

hmmm doesn’t look so dedicated healer all of a sudden.

this is true for all these elite specs… most people are going to pick and choose what they want for their builds..

The druid is exactly what the ranger needed. It now has very viable options to mix a damage build while having an option of a strong defensive mode.

do you see the whole picture? the ranger can finally compete with all the other OP classes now. yay. we should all be happy.

Druid is Amazing.

People can’t seem to think outside the box and see how to apply the druid outside of a pure healer role. Just because it has a lot of healing potential doesn’t mean it won’t be powerful in a zerker or condition damage role. Eric has got it right, it gives the ranger class all of the utility it needs to step outside of it’s current comfort zone and be more than simply a DPS class.

Photinous.4628:

People can’t seem to think outside the box and see how to apply the druid outside of a pure healer role. Just because it has a lot of healing potential doesn’t mean it won’t be powerful in a zerker or condition damage role. Eric has got it right, it gives the ranger class all of the utility it needs to step outside of it’s current comfort zone and be more than simply a DPS class.

Preach it man…

StickerHappy.8052:

Photinous.4628:

People can’t seem to think outside the box and see how to apply the druid outside of a pure healer role. Just because it has a lot of healing potential doesn’t mean it won’t be powerful in a zerker or condition damage role. Eric has got it right, it gives the ranger class all of the utility it needs to step outside of it’s current comfort zone and be more than simply a DPS class.

Preach it man…

Yassss honey pie! Although I will be a DRUID healer. hands down!

Photinous.4628:

step outside of it’s current comfort zone and be more than simply a DPS class.

I think that Ranger would need to become a serious DPS class before such could be considered even remotely to be a comfort zone.

That said, I agree completely that there is a lot more to the Druid spec than just healing. It doesn’t do much for me, and I will be giving HoT a pass as a result, but there are some decent options in the spec.

DevilsVice.5801:

Did Anet forget when they launched GW2 that one of their primary claims to fame was removing the “MMO Holy Trinity” of Tank, DPS, Healer?

Or did that concept go out the window somewhere and I missed it?

This is a common misconception. From the start of the game, Anet’s vision was to replace the MMO Holy Trinity (hard trinity – tank, dps, healer) with their own “Soft Trinity” DPS, Support, Tank. With Support includes both offensive (crowd control, snare, debilitating conditions, etc.) and defensive (heal, block, reflect, etc.)

Professions/Classes are not locked into a certain role but rather you can customize your build to perform certain roles better than others.

While this trinity somewhat exists in PvP and WvW (GvG fight with frontline and backline formations), in PvE it totally fell short as current PvE contents are badly designed to favor DPS DPS DPS.

So Anet is trying hard to address this in the upcoming expansion to restore “the balance”. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

keenlam.4753:

DevilsVice.5801:

Did Anet forget when they launched GW2 that one of their primary claims to fame was removing the “MMO Holy Trinity” of Tank, DPS, Healer?

Or did that concept go out the window somewhere and I missed it?

This is a common misconception. From the start of the game, Anet’s vision was to replace the MMO Holy Trinity (hard trinity – tank, dps, healer) with their own “Soft Trinity” DPS, Support, Tank. With Support includes both offensive (crowd control, snare, debilitating conditions, etc.) and defensive (heal, block, reflect, etc.)

Professions/Classes are not locked into a certain role but rather you can customize your build to perform certain roles better than others.

While this trinity somewhat exists in PvP and WvW (GvG fight with frontline and backline formations), in PvE it totally fell short as current PvE contents are badly designed to favor DPS DPS DPS.

So Anet is trying hard to address this in the upcoming expansion to restore “the balance”. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.

Wow… Just a huge wow. Let me HUG you for saying this in such a clear and precise way! You totally summed it all up! People need to read this and realize ANETs vision for GW2 and how it fell short, and what they are doing now to revive it.

Many many many people fail to see the other reason the zerk meta in PVE instanced content came to rise is because 1) content never changed 2) humans learn.

There will always be an optimal build to get things done the fastest. Raids will be no different. The least amount support needed will be taken by the most organized groups.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

The least amount support needed will be taken by the most organized groups.

Very true.

As long as encounter victory conditions in MMOs consist of killing the boss the minimum amount of support/heals necessary to keep the damage dealers alive will be optimal. Initially the support requirements for a given challenging encounter will be higher but, as players learn the encounter, the amount of support needed will likely lessen.

Druid line provides healing, condie cleanse and cc. That’s a lot of useful stuff you can pair with two other ranger lines.

It is not a braindead healbot as someone claims. It looks way more amazing than the revenant’s ventari line.

People forget boon sharing and boon corruption and debuffs in the support role

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Many many many people fail to see the other reason the zerk meta in PVE instanced content came to rise is because 1) content never changed 2) humans learn.

There will always be an optimal build to get things done the fastest. Raids will be no different. The least amount support needed will be taken by the most organized groups.

This is absolutly true and as such nobody is going to take the one note Druid when better support options exist.

In my opinion, Rangers have gone so long without any true official theme for their profession (am I an archer? Am I a beastmaster? Am I a shamany spirit-summoning nature dude?) that some Rangers have been forced to come up with their own personal theme as to what they want their profession to be.

Almost undeniably, that personal theme has been DPS support. "Range"r, they say, it’s in the name! So they wanted Druid to support that theme they had spent long and hard following. They wanted the Druid to put them into the meta – the BERSERKER meta.

The issue here is that Anet absolutely hates the berserker pve meta, and for good reason: there is no variety. This game is balanced 80-20 in favor of PvP. PvP and WvW are vibrant places with multiple build options for all classes and the environment isn’t nearly as stifling for creativity as PvE is. I believe Anet wants to move the creativity of those two game modes into PvE, because whether they like it or not, all players start out in PvE. It’s the main mode in GW2.

Those players who strictly play PvE won’t realize this because they’ve never experimented with the other two game modes. They only see berserker, while Anet is looking – and designing – past the berserker meta.

I think this is where the disconnect happened, and is continuing to happen. The players are completely rigid; they’re confident that berserker will survive into HoT and remain the stable meta. Anet put the Druid in front of them – an elite specialization with a literal kittenload of healing – and the players immediately saw it as useless because healing power has no place in a meta where the best defense is a good offense, and active defenses take care of everything else. And because the Druid is primarily healing power, they can’t see past the wall of “uselessness” to gaze upon everything else the Druid brings to the table: the “control” portion of “dps, control, support”.

The Druid is two parts support, one part control. The perfect complement to the soft trinity Anet failed to deliver in the core game, but is now trying to reintroduce in HoT – because while they said they were going to get rid of the “hard trinity”, aka classes being locked into a specific role, they never said anything about getting rid of trinities altogether. Anet wants a “soft trinity” of dps, control, support, with every class having something to contribute towards each facet.

The base ranger class is overwhelmingly specialized towards dps, but people failed to recognize that through the mire of bugs, kittenty dev communication, iffy design practices and pet issues. So, again, when people saw the Druid with literally no dps, an elite specialization overwhelmingly leaning towards defensive support and control, they claimed there was no synergy with the base ranger at all, despite the Druid absolutely what the ranger needed more than anything else. Dps, support and control had all been met in the same class, finally. Soft trinity intact. Now the issue is getting the base profession up to speed so the dps portion can catch up to the other two, while keeping the Druid relatively stable and well-designed so we have options going into HoT – which will hopefully finally provide other options than berserker. To that end, I have faith in Irenio. If anyone can walk this tightrope, it’s him.

Olcon.9506:

Those players who strictly play PvE won’t realize this because they’ve never experimented with the other two game modes. They only see berserker, while Anet is looking – and designing – past the berserker meta.

Ok… Designing past the zerker meta means a couple of things.

1) Holy Trinity – Once you put this in there is no longer a zerker meta because other builds will be required regardless of skill level.

2) Push Towards Soft Holy Trinity – This is what I think will be the case through making things bypass the thing that makes combat in this game fun, which is dodging.

3) Changing Content – Once content is put into place humans learn it. Only the most stupid among us will do the same thing over and over and over the same way and expect a different result. Most of us will do things differently to survive the encounter. For the “zerker meta” to be dissolved the content will have to be constantly changing and in a significant way so that we have to relearn the content. This option is not going to happen due to money… as in, the money Anet has to pay content designers and programmers to keep content changing.

Sadly, I see players getting pushed to a Soft Holy Trinity through design… at least, the general population. The more skilled players will still be playing the Zerk Meta and getting content done a lot faster than the PHIW Nomad’s who are still doing the same instance three days later because they can’t kill anything.

So tired of all the “TRINITY IS HERE” posts… Just because Druid offers good SUPPORT, it will not be using a healing ability every global and putting out no damage (like in genuine “trinity” balanced games).

Different classes offer SUPPORT in many ways (Guard/rev will have good boon share, rev/druid can have good healing it looks, ele can even heal/boon share with tempest – this is just a few without bothering to breakdown every class).

Does this mean GW2 is following the typical “Trinity” format of many other games? No. Just no. There is not going to be people building full “Tank” to “aggro the raid bosses” while doing minor damage, full out zerker builds for dps only, and healers just healing everyone and doing no damage.

The GW2 “trinity” should be viewed as support/condi damage, support/power damage, and glass cannon. The current meta is full glass cannon which I hope isn’t possible so this game actually becomes challenging for PVE.

I’m sorry, who said the TRINITY IS HERE besides you?

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Olcon.9506:

Those players who strictly play PvE won’t realize this because they’ve never experimented with the other two game modes. They only see berserker, while Anet is looking – and designing – past the berserker meta.

Ok… Designing past the zerker meta means a couple of things.

1) Holy Trinity – Once you put this in there is no longer a zerker meta because other builds will be required regardless of skill level.

2) Push Towards Soft Holy Trinity – This is what I think will be the case through making things bypass the thing that makes combat in this game fun, which is dodging.

3) Changing Content – Once content is put into place humans learn it. Only the most stupid among us will do the same thing over and over and over the same way and expect a different result. Most of us will do things differently to survive the encounter. For the “zerker meta” to be dissolved the content will have to be constantly changing and in a significant way so that we have to relearn the content. This option is not going to happen due to money… as in, the money Anet has to pay content designers and programmers to keep content changing.

Sadly, I see players getting pushed to a Soft Holy Trinity through design… at least, the general population. The more skilled players will still be playing the Zerk Meta and getting content done a lot faster than the PHIW Nomad’s who are still doing the same instance three days later because they can’t kill anything.

True. People seem to have forgotten that the Zerk meta wasn’t a concious decision on Anets part. They envisioned dungeons being done with teams made up of DPS, control and support specs. People figured out the least amount of support and control needed to maximise dps and the Zerk meta was born. People will do the same again.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

I’m sorry, who said the TRINITY IS HERE besides you?

Reads thread title. “Dedicated healer class?”

Reads first comment. “Did Anet forget when they launched GW2 that one of their primary claims to fame was removing the “MMO Holy Trinity” of Tank, DPS, Healer?”

“Dedicated healer.” “MMO Holy Trinity of tank, DPS, healer”

Hmm… Is that not someone saying the holy trinity is being created and did Anet forget that was something they vowed to not do? Not like this is the only person saying this or anything, tons of threads on the forums are saying trinity this, trinity that and it’s getting out of hand.

None of those words quoted were “TRINITY IS HERE”… But, ok.

Besides, they’re moving away from the trinity they originally wanted to a soft holy trinity.

Olcon.9506:

In my opinion, Rangers have gone so long without any true official theme for their profession (am I an archer? Am I a beastmaster? Am I a shamany spirit-summoning nature dude?) that some Rangers have been forced to come up with their own personal theme as to what they want their profession to be.

Almost undeniably, that personal theme has been DPS support. "Range"r, they say, it’s in the name! So they wanted Druid to support that theme they had spent long and hard following. They wanted the Druid to put them into the meta – the BERSERKER meta.

The issue here is that Anet absolutely hates the berserker pve meta, and for good reason: there is no variety. This game is balanced 80-20 in favor of PvP. PvP and WvW are vibrant places with multiple build options for all classes and the environment isn’t nearly as stifling for creativity as PvE is. I believe Anet wants to move the creativity of those two game modes into PvE, because whether they like it or not, all players start out in PvE. It’s the main mode in GW2.

Those players who strictly play PvE won’t realize this because they’ve never experimented with the other two game modes. They only see berserker, while Anet is looking – and designing – past the berserker meta.

I think this is where the disconnect happened, and is continuing to happen. The players are completely rigid; they’re confident that berserker will survive into HoT and remain the stable meta. Anet put the Druid in front of them – an elite specialization with a literal kittenload of healing – and the players immediately saw it as useless because healing power has no place in a meta where the best defense is a good offense, and active defenses take care of everything else. And because the Druid is primarily healing power, they can’t see past the wall of “uselessness” to gaze upon everything else the Druid brings to the table: the “control” portion of “dps, control, support”.

The Druid is two parts support, one part control. The perfect complement to the soft trinity Anet failed to deliver in the core game, but is now trying to reintroduce in HoT – because while they said they were going to get rid of the “hard trinity”, aka classes being locked into a specific role, they never said anything about getting rid of trinities altogether. Anet wants a “soft trinity” of dps, control, support, with every class having something to contribute towards each facet.

The base ranger class is overwhelmingly specialized towards dps, but people failed to recognize that through the mire of bugs, kittenty dev communication, iffy design practices and pet issues. So, again, when people saw the Druid with literally no dps, an elite specialization overwhelmingly leaning towards defensive support and control, they claimed there was no synergy with the base ranger at all, despite the Druid absolutely what the ranger needed more than anything else. Dps, support and control had all been met in the same class, finally. Soft trinity intact. Now the issue is getting the base profession up to speed so the dps portion can catch up to the other two, while keeping the Druid relatively stable and well-designed so we have options going into HoT – which will hopefully finally provide other options than berserker. To that end, I have faith in Irenio. If anyone can walk this tightrope, it’s him.

I love this post. You know why? It’s because you argue your points with logic, not with the emotion of “this is my favourite class and I can’t use it right now, in the currently existing environment.”

There’s a chance Anet will fail to deliver on the PvE hardcore content, which would let Zerker rule for longer, where yes, Druid would be useless – but that’s so stupidly unlikely it’s not even worth mentioning.

keenlam.4753:

This is a common misconception. From the start of the game, Anet’s vision was to replace the MMO Holy Trinity (hard trinity – tank, dps, healer) with their own “Soft Trinity” DPS, Support, Tank. With Support includes both offensive (crowd control, snare, debilitating conditions, etc.) and defensive (heal, block, reflect, etc.)

either you copypasted this post in two threads right now or I am experiencing weird forum bug – so let me say it again for sure – AN trinity was actually damage support and control where control was CC, support were supposed to be boons and condition removals and all team were supposed to “tank” by “swapping aggro of the boss between team members”

also to some addition to my previous post – I haven’t said at no point that druid does not have any damage options – my point was that with f5 staff abilities and some of the glyphs druid is as close to be “dedicated healer” as for gw2 is possible and that is a thing of concern – sure especially after actually watching the stream vid is oposition to just read summary I really like the specs and really can’t wait to test it out – but it does not mean that I do not see a thing to worry here…….