Guild Wars 2

Polished the traits a bit from my own ideas and those around the forum. Thoughts?

Staff Redux
Glyph Redux
Celestial Avatar Redux

I like your ideas for traits, staff and glyphs. Will be much more useful for various builds and could create some strong builds.

I LOVE your Scrouge Healing idea! (Post it in official feedback topic, pls!)
Anet, pls- just do it.
The rest is decent as it is but I would be happy to see all your propositions in game – but it’s not gonna happen or we would get nerf day later :d

So far I like your ideas. I agree that the spec really needs some dps component to make it even slightly viable. Healing does no good if you can’t pressure an opponent to withdraw from the engagement or burn cool downs. Right now druid is the equivalent of the old guardian heal way build which hasn’t been viable for over a year. Only is probably slightly worse due to lack of group boon application.

I stopped reading at first minor trait. 2% on damaging foes is too much. That or you can expect higher CD on the celestial skills. Honestly that wouldn’t be horrible I suppose as some of them, Lunar Beam, look a little excessive.

I dont like u’r making the druid very much a condi spec oriented, aichent seepsds already very good with condi builds. I would like more power on staff(no condi hybrid damage, we have SB for that) and damage of thE GM wisp trait(no burn).

Still a lack of synergy in the trait lines. Some improvements to traits, but small ones.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Justine.6351:

I stopped reading at first minor trait. 2% on damaging foes is too much. That or you can expect higher CD on the celestial skills. Honestly that wouldn’t be horrible I suppose as some of them, Lunar Beam, look a little excessive.

2% damage from healing vs foes is not that much when you have no healing stats even good healing stats , lets say a Heal does 1.9k heal every 8seconds 10% of that is 190 2% of that is really low .

so it all depends on how much healing stats you spec for but if going for full healing you trade all the direct damage you have so this 2% damage to foes from heals is just Added damage support on a per heal basis so its not strong at all.

lolwhat?

2% AF for dealing dmg.

Justine.6351:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Justine.6351:

I stopped reading at first minor trait. 2% on damaging foes is too much. That or you can expect higher CD on the celestial skills. Honestly that wouldn’t be horrible I suppose as some of them, Lunar Beam, look a little excessive.

2% damage from healing vs foes is not that much when you have no healing stats even good healing stats , lets say a Heal does 1.9k heal every 8seconds 10% of that is 190 2% of that is really low .

so it all depends on how much healing stats you spec for but if going for full healing you trade all the direct damage you have so this 2% damage to foes from heals is just Added damage support on a per heal basis so its not strong at all.

lolwhat?

2% AF for dealing dmg.

wops forget that my brain needs to sleep now

2% AF for dealing damage is 50 instances of damage, its a fair bit, considering you can charge CAF in seconds OOC with TU or seconds in combat with staff. There needs to be a much faster way without TU or staff.

Except that you are supposed to be healing to build up your astral force. Why should dealing damage give you anything at all?

Chrispy.5641:

Except that you are supposed to be healing to build up your astral force. Why should dealing damage give you anything at all?

Because there is no point in having a class that needs to heal things solely in order to unlock a resource gated transform that then allows you to heal things more.

It just pigeon-holes the Druid into Staff or TU for reliable AF generation. If damage was a major way of generating it, you wouldn’t need either and could play Ranger in a more traditional way while still being able to use CAF to support your team mates or sustain yourself.

I’d love to use dual melee Druid with shouts, or Druid Trapper, or SB/GS CC Druid, but its pretty much impossible without TU. The builds have merit and would work well if they actually generated AF, but having to deal damage 400 times to enter the form is pretty rubbish.

As is, it takes over 3.5 minutes of AA from a SB to generate enough AF to enter CAF, every single time, compared to 5s with TU or Staff. At 2% per damage, it would be reduced to 27 seconds, which is still a long time.

I really think the Scourge Healing trait I made here is the answer to a lot of Druids issues, as well as the additional AF generation through damage. I just can’t see Druid being useful without changes like this.

Something like Scourge Healing would be truely amazing synergy with Sharpened Edges and Hidden Barbs!

Also, I truly think merging Live Vicariously and Natural Mender, then swapping that out with Natural Stride would be a huge step forward for build diversity.

I think adding a pulsing stability would be nice for druid on one of the grand master traits, grace of the land perhaps. Its a really required thing for druids.

Personally would like a trait that increased damage towards dazed enemies, so the specialization could be labeled more as offensive as well.

DoogySnowStalker.2069:

Personally would like a trait that increased damage towards dazed enemies, so the specialization could be labeled more as offensive as well.

Your wish has been granted! Predator’s Onslaught does that. But that’s not all! It’s even in a trait line with a trait that doubles Daze durations! Such synergy!

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Your wish has been granted! Predator’s Onslaught does that. But that’s not all! It’s even in a trait line with a trait that doubles Daze durations! Such synergy!

Just wishing for another damage modifier since we lack them v_v, even though it falls under the same category, lol

I like this trait set up. My only issue is there being two traits a condi user would want that compete with one another. But then I suppose a melee druid that doesn’t rely on control might want the one with burning and ranged druids might want the one with immobilize on it.

Turning your healing into damage is a great idea and would help a lot with damage issues on druid. Especially in the Avatar State.

Hump de bump

15 charrs

I would like to see some kind of Protection proc on a minor when I heal a Ally.

Right now,. its easy to burst down a Druid. Need self defense in PvP, especially in pug play sadly. nobody knows how to play as a team.

Scourge Healing would really help with tagging in WvW, even if it would deal only ~100 dmg per Cosmic Ray.

My Sweet Lily.1952:

Scourge Healing would really help with tagging in WvW, even if it would deal only ~100 dmg per Cosmic Ray.

Tagging is not a great issue while running with a group but Anet has to change the way you “contribute” to the battle. Putting a damage component on your heal skills is not a solution.

illenos.5134:

Tagging is not a great issue while running with a group but Anet has to change the way you “contribute” to the battle. Putting a damage component on your heal skills is not a solution.

Agreed.

As usual, Heimskarl, you have done an excelletn job of providing well thought out, balanced and useful changes that benefit the broadest number of players in the broadest scenarios.

I only wish the devs put as much experience into balancing the class. The druid should have looked something like this at the start of the BWE.

I would still be disappointed by the obvious hodge-podge, last minute duct-taped-on celestial form, but the Elite spec would at least make sense and be coherent with a broader number of weapons and base-specs. My only complaint is that your majors don’t seem to effect any other type of build but staff due to the lack of healing-other options on other weapon sets. I think somewhere in the spec there should be an option to add group healing to pet attacks, involve the pet more. It would alleviate that issue, I think. This may be redundant though given the number of rune, sigils and traits from other trait lines which affect healing.

illenos.5134:

My Sweet Lily.1952:

Scourge Healing would really help with tagging in WvW, even if it would deal only ~100 dmg per Cosmic Ray.

Tagging is not a great issue while running with a group but Anet has to change the way you “contribute” to the battle. Putting a damage component on your heal skills is not a solution.

I think this is debatable. Technically you are correct, in a perfect world where anet does what is needed for a single class, even if it means significant alterations to existign systems, then yes what you suggest is absolutely what should happen.

Unfortunately this isn’t that world. Exhibit A: Ranger Pet AI If the Ranger CDI gave us one thing, it was confirmation by Anet that they had no intention of making the significant AI alterations need to make the pet better or improving mob AI to the point where the pet would be improved, vicariously.

In this world, the more likely scenario of fixing contribution issues is adding damage to healing skills. It’s the smaller change and therfor more likely to be implemented, but even then, given our experience of the last 3 years, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

It may sound cynical but that’s just the reality of GW2 so far. Maybe HoT Will show that Anet has changed. Probably not.
Exhibit B: Scrapper Gyro Ai.

I like your Idea’s, but the druid needs also a much better skaling for his healskills.

I really like the rejigging of the traits postion. Much much better.

Grace of the lad should apply permanent reduction damage.

Wondrouswall.7169:

illenos.5134:

Tagging is not a great issue while running with a group but Anet has to change the way you “contribute” to the battle. Putting a damage component on your heal skills is not a solution.

Agreed.

I partially agree with this.
This game is not supposed to have dedicated healers. Now, yes, you can focus on that but that should NOT be the only thing you do. Druid keeps getting called a “dedicated healer” because it’s very healing oriented and that’s all people choose to see but that’s precisely why damage needs to be added. No class should ever be at the point where they lack any meaningful* amount of offense no matter how much support it offers. That’s not how the game as a whole is designed. I agree that contribution need to be addressed but that does not mean adding damage or control components to the Druid should be ignored.

Here is a perfect example of a healer done right in this type of game:
Firefall Dragonfly Battleframe Spotlight

*Meaningful amount of damage: Damage needed to be considered “contributing” to the DPS of the group (or while solo) as a whole. (aka the whole idea behind this conversation)

I kinda agree that damage should generate more resource. Currently, unless you have Staff with jesus beam through allies you barely get that Celestial Avatar up.

But at the same time, Druidic Clarity needs ICD or other slight nerf and base healing in Avatar has to be lowered, while healing power scalling brought up.

I like removing the “when you swap to Staff” part from Primal Echoes.

I think rest of traits are rather ok as it stands.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Chrispy.5641:

Except that you are supposed to be healing to build up your astral force. Why should dealing damage give you anything at all?

Because there is no point in having a class that needs to heal things solely in order to unlock a resource gated transform that then allows you to heal things more.

It just pigeon-holes the Druid into Staff or TU for reliable AF generation. If damage was a major way of generating it, you wouldn’t need either and could play Ranger in a more traditional way while still being able to use CAF to support your team mates or sustain yourself.

I’d love to use dual melee Druid with shouts, or Druid Trapper, or SB/GS CC Druid, but its pretty much impossible without TU. The builds have merit and would work well if they actually generated AF, but having to deal damage 400 times to enter the form is pretty rubbish.

As is, it takes over 3.5 minutes of AA from a SB to generate enough AF to enter CAF, every single time, compared to 5s with TU or Staff. At 2% per damage, it would be reduced to 27 seconds, which is still a long time.

It takes 1.5 uses of TU to fully charge astral force fully, so way more than 5s. Stop being dramatic.

Also, wow, Shortbow reduces to 27 seconds. Want to know how to do it faster?
Have piercing arrows on Shortbow and that total becomes 9 seconds. If you use Shortbow #2 on a group of enemies, then that total becomes about 5 seconds. Only 5 whole seconds between virtual perma dazes and very strong healing? I’m pretty sure that Longbow can do it faster, even faster when you consider the range of quickness options we have.

I don’t like calling things on Ranger overpowered because there’s too many fake “Rangers” doing that already, but….that’s too powerful since it gives you access to a daze about every 5 seconds. You don’t even have to care about the healing. Pop into Celestial Avatar Form, throw down a daze (with the high healing too), then pop out to keep doing damage for a total of five seconds, pop back in, etc. If you’re not healing any only concentrated on damage and have a damage build, It makes you too powerful. So….how about no.

Looks good to me.

Chrispy.5641:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Chrispy.5641:

Except that you are supposed to be healing to build up your astral force. Why should dealing damage give you anything at all?

Because there is no point in having a class that needs to heal things solely in order to unlock a resource gated transform that then allows you to heal things more.

It just pigeon-holes the Druid into Staff or TU for reliable AF generation. If damage was a major way of generating it, you wouldn’t need either and could play Ranger in a more traditional way while still being able to use CAF to support your team mates or sustain yourself.

I’d love to use dual melee Druid with shouts, or Druid Trapper, or SB/GS CC Druid, but its pretty much impossible without TU. The builds have merit and would work well if they actually generated AF, but having to deal damage 400 times to enter the form is pretty rubbish.

As is, it takes over 3.5 minutes of AA from a SB to generate enough AF to enter CAF, every single time, compared to 5s with TU or Staff. At 2% per damage, it would be reduced to 27 seconds, which is still a long time.

It takes 1.5 uses of TU to fully charge astral force fully, so way more than 5s. Stop being dramatic.

Also, wow, Shortbow reduces to 27 seconds. Want to know how to do it faster?
Have piercing arrows on Shortbow and that total becomes 9 seconds. If you use Shortbow #2 on a group of enemies, then that total becomes about 5 seconds. Only 5 whole seconds between virtual perma dazes and very strong healing? I’m pretty sure that Longbow can do it faster, even faster when you consider the range of quickness options we have.

I don’t like calling things on Ranger overpowered because there’s too many fake “Rangers” doing that already, but….that’s too powerful since it gives you access to a daze about every 5 seconds. You don’t even have to care about the healing. Pop into Celestial Avatar Form, throw down a daze (with the high healing too), then pop out to keep doing damage for a total of five seconds, pop back in, etc. If you’re not healing any only concentrated on damage and have a damage build, It makes you too powerful. So….how about no.

And actually, after testing it some more, the fastest I could get astral force while attacking is about 30 seconds. you can use Staff 1 to get into Celestial avatar form in less than 5 seconds. While using Troll Unguent, I was able to get into and out of Celestial avatar form 3 times in about 9 seconds.

Anet isn’t going to let a daze every 5 seconds fly (while still having a full damage spec, Astral Force gain by attacking might be raised to a maximum of 1%), and they aren’t going to let a full condition clear every 3 seconds fly. It will be nerfed.

I would be very happy if these changes were implemented.

That said, if the Celestial Being trait change was made I see no reason for other AF generation traits. Also, I feel strongly glyphs should be ground targeted.

Chrispy.5641:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Chrispy.5641:

Except that you are supposed to be healing to build up your astral force. Why should dealing damage give you anything at all?

Because there is no point in having a class that needs to heal things solely in order to unlock a resource gated transform that then allows you to heal things more.

It just pigeon-holes the Druid into Staff or TU for reliable AF generation. If damage was a major way of generating it, you wouldn’t need either and could play Ranger in a more traditional way while still being able to use CAF to support your team mates or sustain yourself.

I’d love to use dual melee Druid with shouts, or Druid Trapper, or SB/GS CC Druid, but its pretty much impossible without TU. The builds have merit and would work well if they actually generated AF, but having to deal damage 400 times to enter the form is pretty rubbish.

As is, it takes over 3.5 minutes of AA from a SB to generate enough AF to enter CAF, every single time, compared to 5s with TU or Staff. At 2% per damage, it would be reduced to 27 seconds, which is still a long time.

It takes 1.5 uses of TU to fully charge astral force fully, so way more than 5s. Stop being dramatic.

Also, wow, Shortbow reduces to 27 seconds. Want to know how to do it faster?
Have piercing arrows on Shortbow and that total becomes 9 seconds. If you use Shortbow #2 on a group of enemies, then that total becomes about 5 seconds. Only 5 whole seconds between virtual perma dazes and very strong healing? I’m pretty sure that Longbow can do it faster, even faster when you consider the range of quickness options we have.

I don’t like calling things on Ranger overpowered because there’s too many fake “Rangers” doing that already, but….that’s too powerful since it gives you access to a daze about every 5 seconds. You don’t even have to care about the healing. Pop into Celestial Avatar Form, throw down a daze (with the high healing too), then pop out to keep doing damage for a total of five seconds, pop back in, etc. If you’re not healing any only concentrated on damage and have a damage build, It makes you too powerful. So….how about no…

…And actually, after testing it some more, the fastest I could get astral force while attacking is about 30 seconds. you can use Staff 1 to get into Celestial avatar form in less than 5 seconds. While using Troll Unguent, I was able to get into and out of Celestial avatar form 3 times in about 9 seconds.

Anet isn’t going to let a daze every 5 seconds fly (while still having a full damage spec, Astral Force gain by attacking might be raised to a maximum of 1%), and they aren’t going to let a full condition clear every 3 seconds fly. It will be nerfed.[/

I’m not being dramatic, because, actually, it is possible to charge the AF bar by 140% with a single TU use. Meaning you can already go from 0 AF to use TU, go to CAF, use daze, drop out of form, use skills then immediately go back into the CAF.

Yeah, IF AF force was 2% per attack, it could drop SB from 3.6 minutes of AAing to 27 seconds. But its not 2% is it? At 0.25%, even with LoYF on and hitting 5 targets every arrow, AA will get you to full in 43s. If you factor in Poison Volley hitting 25 targets every time off CD, it still takes over 20s. Lets see that happen in PvP.

Even in 30s its far too long, since I’m sure your testing was unrealistic. Go to a PvP match and test it out again, I really doubt you can do it in 30s, or maintain that sort of attack rate. To do it with damage over 30s is 13 packets of damage per second. Unless you can provide actual evidence of this being possible, I have to call it out as being BS. I would, however, LOVE to be proven wrong on this. So I actually hope you can.

So yeah, you missed the entire point of my post. How can you reliably build AF if you are not using Staff or TU? If you can prove it is possible with damage in a comparative time frame, I’ll be overjoyed.

Bump for progress