(edited by Chokolata.1870)
Druid and Healing Power Scaling
(edited by Aomine.5012)
(edited by Aomine.5012)
Jroh | Former SOAC Ranger Podcaster | Platinum Division Top 100 Player
www.twitch.tv/itsJROH For stream, stream schedule, other streamers, builds, etc
https://www.youtube.com/user/JRoeboat
www.twitch.tv/itsJROH For stream, stream schedule, other streamers, builds, etc
https://www.youtube.com/user/JRoeboat
Ranger Danger!
a nerf to base healing is necessary. Whilst I agree the Ranger, now, should be a hybrid class (either going full DPS or going Healing), in my eyes you shouldn’t be able to do both at the same time. Nerf base healing, increase how much healing you do if you gear for that than what it was at BWE3 if you geared for it, and it’s all happy. Unfortunately anet, you HAVE to buff core ranger for this to be a viable payoff. Otherwise you’ve kittened off the Ranger community YET AGAIN.
Point being what do we get when we give up the base healing?
As Druid we do not get any good damage at all!
It’s not like we give-up base healing and go full zerk, and suddenly staff hits as hard as LB. If you just going to nerf healing while leaving the damage subpar even with the best offensive set-up, then this is not hybrid, this is one dimensional crap (spec healing or you’re useless in both healing and dps)
Thats precisely it, no you don’t get mad damage by speccing druid and going with zerker. Thats like saying you want to be the biggest planet but also the smallest at the same time. Druids not gonna be a dps class and you will be a hindrance to your team by going druid with zerker.
Instead, if you want to be DPS, stick with core ranger. You can’t be Druid and have the choice of heavy healing or heavy dps. In other words, you can’t be a hybrid with just one specialisation.
We need to start ignoring that word “elite” thats attached to these specs and Anet should never have called them that in the first place as it makes us feel like thats the next goal of advancing the character. Its not, it’s just another option.
Don’t you understand the word HYBRID means?
Druid cannot be Hybrid post nerf because it’d only shine in heal. Even with best offensive gear, the damage is still subpar. It also has no condition damage whatsoever on everything Druid offers.
The ONLY option you get is spec for more healing, making your damage NON-EXISTENT (DONT use the word subpar, hitting less than1k with staff AA is outright worthless)There’s nothing Hybrid about it. No damage, no condition, no boons, but only healing.
Druid is MERELY a healer post nerf. You either spec for inferior damage and giving up the whole healing things, or spec for healing to be a great healer and do next to no damage.Other support classes NEVER have to go through this trade-off and still can keep all their options. (Damage or Condition, pick one) That’s what I called Hybrid.
You’ve hit the nail in the head yet again.
I’m well aware what hybrid means. You don’t seem to understand that what you’re saying is exactly what it is. the druid is NOT a hybrid spec. It’s a healing spec. what gives the Ranger the option TO hybrid is that is has the Druid option to spec into, or not.
Also, you used the word subpar, then told us not to use the word subpar.
I’m seeing a lot of salty Rangers here (I know because I am one) who can’t seem to look beyond the fact that there class is “bad”. Talk to Heimskarl if you think the Ranger is as bad as you lot make it out to be.
Read it again. If you spec for healing on a subpar damage class (Yes, even go full zerk, if you use staff your damage is “subpar”), your damage become “non-existent”. That’s what I meant.
You continue to fail to see my point. We shouldn’t get an Elite spec just for one dimensional use with no other choice but healing. Druid shouldn’t be something that bound to only healing. It should add options to our play-style, not pigeon-hole us into one play-style.
You said you’re able to pick on other specs of ranger to be Hybrid for Druid, but your logic is flawed because without the stats, other ranger specs aren’t going to save your dps. You pick healing, and your damage is nothing, simple as that. There’s nothing hybrid about it. This game is so reliant on stats and Amulets.
Okay again you’ve nailed the bullseye. There’s nothing hybrid about it. Correct. It’s a healing spec. It’s not meant to be a hybrid. (Unless Irenio + devs change their mind)
The ranger however IS hybrid because at its core, it’s DPS orientated. Yes, other ranger specs won’t save your DPS and as I said, the core ranger still needs a lot of work to make the class work as a hybrid (which is what it looks like they’re trying to do).
What I think you’re trying to say is that the Ranger either goes full dps, or full healing, and as such, whilst in play, cannot be a hybrid. The thing is, it appears that anet are trying to avoid just that, because thats what the Elementalist is and everyone cries “OP!”.
Also, why shouldn’t it be one-dimensional? take Rift for example, you have one class that specs into individual, one dimensional roles depending on whats needed of it. This is just something, that the Rangers have declared, shouldn’t be a thing and so therefore must have negativity hurled towards it.
Having this additional option actually OPENS the play of the Ranger. albeit it in an uncreative way (I’m not a massive fan of druid and I believe they could have done it differently, but I’ll put that in a separate post if asked because its off-topic otherwise)
This isn’t Rift. Any other elite spec has multiple build paths; there is no single stat that they need. The same should be true of druid. Forcing healing power on every druid in order for them to be effective is bad design.
That’s a matter of opinion, really.
There are quite a few types of gear that have healing on it. And with the ability to mix and match to get your desired stats it’s all about us choosing to make it a GOOD design for ourselves.
Even if I wanted to grab extra ascended gear when no other profession needs healing power at all (literally any other stat can be useful to every profession, it’s just healing power that’s worthless), just try doing that in PvP.
You’re joking right?
I don’t even wanna continue from here.
You can’t get ideal stat combinations that have healing power in PvP. The amulets for that don’t exist. How is that a joke?
Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol
Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.
And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).
I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.
Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^
Pardon for my being off subject.
Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol
Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.
And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).
I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.
Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^
Pardon for my being off subject.
Candyhearts, you are mixing up PvP and PvE “meta”. (I would also like to add that META stands for Most Efficient Tactics Available—nothing more, nothing less, and certainly nothing nefarious. There will always be a meta, since some builds will always be more powerful than others. This is not a bad thing, as you are suggesting, but it is inevitable due to game balance.)
While I only have 10 hours on Druid, I have a thousand hours on base Ranger. I have 430 hours on my PvP bunker Guardian. As it is, Druid has no shot of replacing any of the current successful bunker classes save for organized team fights (though from my experience in WvW, it is easy for the other side to spot when you enter CAF and focus you down in a hot second). This is because Druid focuses solely on reactive healing, rather than proactive defense.
A single, well-timed Aegis can negate essentially infinite spike damage (in this case, my Guardian’s entire health bar, or about ~17k HP). Protection can negate 33% of damage entirely. You can run these defenses while maintaining full offensive pressure. Healing Power is not required for either of these boons, which individually can negate far more damage than healing can recover. Good bunkers do not rely solely on healing, because there is no such thing as slow, sustained damage in PvP—unless you are fighting another bunker build (a fight during which both bunkers will largely remain at 80+% health indefinitely). (Also remember that many classes deal bonus damage to enemies below 50% health—if you take 50% of your HP in damage very quickly, they can spike you for more even quicker). No matter how amazing the Druid’s healing is, it is always one step behind the class dealing the damage, and therefore at the mercy of the damage-dealer. After all, healing is useless UNTIL you take damage. For a class with medium armor and a medium-tier health pool, this is risky business without active damage mitigation.
Because Druid also has very low DPS if it aims to run a Healing Power build (in PvP, pet damage is easily negated by strafing, stealthing, or simply CCing the pet), it cannot defeat other bunker builds. It also cannot defeat spike damage builds before a good spike damager can kill them (especially considering base Druid’s lack of stunbreak and its very conditional condition cleansing). Traditionally, ranger survives in PvP through mobility, heavy spike damage pressure (which forces other spike damagers to retreat temporarily), and instant condition cleansing+CC through the Wilderness Survival trait line. The Druid line does not end our reliance on any of these things for survival, and adds a new state (CAF) where we are completely vulnerable to damage WITHOUT putting any pressure on our enemy (or minimal pressure, now that Irenio has said he will add minor damage to CAF skills).
I am not trying to be insensitive, and I am happy that people enjoyed Druid as-is. But it has too many weaknesses right now to even be on-par with base Ranger in most situations, and I abhor the idea of having Druid be a one-trick pony whose only purpose is to play whack-a-mole with allies’ health bars. Even if it is not ’zerker meta, healing meta will get very old, very fast. Druid needs more active, dynamic play that accounts for a variety of situations—including situations that require DPS—and it needs more synergy with base Ranger and the pet in order to “fit” with the Ranger class more comfortably.
Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol
Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.
And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).
I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.
Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^
Pardon for my being off subject.
Candyhearts, you are mixing up PvP and PvE “meta”. (I would also like to add that META stands for Most Efficient Tactics Available—nothing more, nothing less, and certainly nothing nefarious. There will always be a meta, since some builds will always be more powerful than others. This is not a bad thing, as you are suggesting, but it is inevitable due to game balance.)
While I only have 10 hours on Druid, I have a thousand hours on base Ranger. I have 430 hours on my PvP bunker Guardian. As it is, Druid has no shot of replacing any of the current successful bunker classes save for organized team fights (though from my experience in WvW, it is easy for the other side to spot when you enter CAF and focus you down in a hot second). This is because Druid focuses solely on reactive healing, rather than proactive defense.
A single, well-timed Aegis can negate essentially infinite spike damage (in this case, my Guardian’s entire health bar, or about ~17k HP). Protection can negate 33% of damage entirely. You can run these defenses while maintaining full offensive pressure. Healing Power is not required for either of these boons, which individually can negate far more damage than healing can recover. Good bunkers do not rely solely on healing, because there is no such thing as slow, sustained damage in PvP—unless you are fighting another bunker build (a fight during which both bunkers will largely remain at 80+% health indefinitely). (Also remember that many classes deal bonus damage to enemies below 50% health—if you take 50% of your HP in damage very quickly, they can spike you for more even quicker). No matter how amazing the Druid’s healing is, it is always one step behind the class dealing the damage, and therefore at the mercy of the damage-dealer. After all, healing is useless UNTIL you take damage. For a class with medium armor and a medium-tier health pool, this is risky business without active damage mitigation.
Because Druid also has very low DPS if it aims to run a Healing Power build (in PvP, pet damage is easily negated by strafing, stealthing, or simply CCing the pet), it cannot defeat other bunker builds. It also cannot defeat spike damage builds before a good spike damager can kill them (especially considering base Druid’s lack of stunbreak and its very conditional condition cleansing). Traditionally, ranger survives in PvP through mobility, heavy spike damage pressure (which forces other spike damagers to retreat temporarily), and instant condition cleansing+CC through the Wilderness Survival trait line. The Druid line does not end our reliance on any of these things for survival, and adds a new state (CAF) where we are completely vulnerable to damage WITHOUT putting any pressure on our enemy (or minimal pressure, now that Irenio has said he will add minor damage to CAF skills).
I am not trying to be insensitive, and I am happy that people enjoyed Druid as-is. But it has too many weaknesses right now to even be on-par with base Ranger in most situations, and I abhor the idea of having Druid be a one-trick pony whose only purpose is to play whack-a-mole with allies’ health bars. Even if it is not ’zerker meta, healing meta will get very old, very fast. Druid needs more active, dynamic play that accounts for a variety of situations—including situations that require DPS—and it needs more synergy with base Ranger and the pet in order to “fit” with the Ranger class more comfortably.
Okay Seriously. I didn’t say anything but that other people were confused as to comparing apples and oranges (Boons to Heals. Go back and read). I’m not reading this book long post you made no offense. You keep reading WAYYY too far into everything I say.
Explaining how timed aegis is better than heals when I said they are NOT the same thing. Have nothing to do with Druid. If you guys wanna go carry on to compare Guard bunker to how Druid bunker could possibly work go do that in a proper thread.
I’m really not going to spend any more time on you because I can tell you’re just looking to argue and prove points. Have fun with that. You’re explaining like I said the total opposite when I said nothing.
Also proper paragraph structure is a thing.
And while you can go on to say it’s a worthy topic I would like you to take a gander at the subject heading. Does it say SPVP? It says Healing Power Scaling. You’re welcome.
So back on subject, if this thread will ever allow it. Right? xD
(edited by CandyHearts.6025)
Ranger Danger!
Also, guys, stop going on about other professions and what they can or can’t do in a thread designed to help the Druid. You are continuing to accomplish the nothing that has plagued the Ranger for a while now.
AgitatedFox, Druid (and Ranger) are not balanced in a vacuum—they are balanced against the other classes in this game. Comparing Druid to other classes is necessary when discussing Druid’s balance and place in the game. After all, this is why Irenio has nerfed Druid’s base heals—to be more in line with other classes.
I like your attitude sir. It’s healthy.
I realise that comparing the Druid is necessary as that’s what brings about balance. I’m fine with it, as I should be.
My issue is when people make wildly inaccurate statements about Arena Nets plans and apparent “lack of care”, WHEN they attempt to “compare” to other classes. That is not helpful and only serves to give Arena Net the impression we really really hate them, we have to remember they are people too. (I can’t think of a better way to re-word that paragraph, so I’m sorry if it doesn’t read well)
Basically all I’m saying is; keep it on topic, keep a good attitude (even if your feedback is negative) and stop making stuff up. Anything else and you may as well not have posted, as it only serves to lengthen the amount the devs have to read. The WHaO thread has over 1000 replies and 80% of it is horse kitten. (admittedly, some it is my horse kitten. We all get frustrated)
Thank you for your regard. 
I know things get salty on the forums sometimes, since we are all invested so much in this game. It’s nice to try and avoid the saltiness that tends to permeate the class forums (especially regarding the elite specializations) and have good, solid feedback (and the reasoning behind the feedback) for the Devs to sort through, if they so choose. The topic of Healing Power for Druid is especially fraught, since Druid was announced as a heavy-healing class but now is going to have its base healing nerfed significantly, leaving players wondering if they’re going to be forced into certain builds.
a nerf to base healing is necessary. Whilst I agree the Ranger, now, should be a hybrid class (either going full DPS or going Healing), in my eyes you shouldn’t be able to do both at the same time. Nerf base healing, increase how much healing you do if you gear for that than what it was at BWE3 if you geared for it, and it’s all happy. Unfortunately anet, you HAVE to buff core ranger for this to be a viable payoff. Otherwise you’ve kittened off the Ranger community YET AGAIN.
Point being what do we get when we give up the base healing?
As Druid we do not get any good damage at all!
It’s not like we give-up base healing and go full zerk, and suddenly staff hits as hard as LB. If you just going to nerf healing while leaving the damage subpar even with the best offensive set-up, then this is not hybrid, this is one dimensional crap (spec healing or you’re useless in both healing and dps)
Thats precisely it, no you don’t get mad damage by speccing druid and going with zerker. Thats like saying you want to be the biggest planet but also the smallest at the same time. Druids not gonna be a dps class and you will be a hindrance to your team by going druid with zerker.
Instead, if you want to be DPS, stick with core ranger. You can’t be Druid and have the choice of heavy healing or heavy dps. In other words, you can’t be a hybrid with just one specialisation.
We need to start ignoring that word “elite” thats attached to these specs and Anet should never have called them that in the first place as it makes us feel like thats the next goal of advancing the character. Its not, it’s just another option.
Don’t you understand the word HYBRID means?
Druid cannot be Hybrid post nerf because it’d only shine in heal. Even with best offensive gear, the damage is still subpar. It also has no condition damage whatsoever on everything Druid offers.
The ONLY option you get is spec for more healing, making your damage NON-EXISTENT (DONT use the word subpar, hitting less than1k with staff AA is outright worthless)There’s nothing Hybrid about it. No damage, no condition, no boons, but only healing.
Druid is MERELY a healer post nerf. You either spec for inferior damage and giving up the whole healing things, or spec for healing to be a great healer and do next to no damage.Other support classes NEVER have to go through this trade-off and still can keep all their options. (Damage or Condition, pick one) That’s what I called Hybrid.
You’ve hit the nail in the head yet again.
I’m well aware what hybrid means. You don’t seem to understand that what you’re saying is exactly what it is. the druid is NOT a hybrid spec. It’s a healing spec. what gives the Ranger the option TO hybrid is that is has the Druid option to spec into, or not.
Also, you used the word subpar, then told us not to use the word subpar.
I’m seeing a lot of salty Rangers here (I know because I am one) who can’t seem to look beyond the fact that there class is “bad”. Talk to Heimskarl if you think the Ranger is as bad as you lot make it out to be.
Read it again. If you spec for healing on a subpar damage class (Yes, even go full zerk, if you use staff your damage is “subpar”), your damage become “non-existent”. That’s what I meant.
You continue to fail to see my point. We shouldn’t get an Elite spec just for one dimensional use with no other choice but healing. Druid shouldn’t be something that bound to only healing. It should add options to our play-style, not pigeon-hole us into one play-style.
You said you’re able to pick on other specs of ranger to be Hybrid for Druid, but your logic is flawed because without the stats, other ranger specs aren’t going to save your dps. You pick healing, and your damage is nothing, simple as that. There’s nothing hybrid about it. This game is so reliant on stats and Amulets.
Okay again you’ve nailed the bullseye. There’s nothing hybrid about it. Correct. It’s a healing spec. It’s not meant to be a hybrid. (Unless Irenio + devs change their mind)
The ranger however IS hybrid because at its core, it’s DPS orientated. Yes, other ranger specs won’t save your DPS and as I said, the core ranger still needs a lot of work to make the class work as a hybrid (which is what it looks like they’re trying to do).
What I think you’re trying to say is that the Ranger either goes full dps, or full healing, and as such, whilst in play, cannot be a hybrid. The thing is, it appears that anet are trying to avoid just that, because thats what the Elementalist is and everyone cries “OP!”.
Also, why shouldn’t it be one-dimensional? take Rift for example, you have one class that specs into individual, one dimensional roles depending on whats needed of it. This is just something, that the Rangers have declared, shouldn’t be a thing and so therefore must have negativity hurled towards it.
Having this additional option actually OPENS the play of the Ranger. albeit it in an uncreative way (I’m not a massive fan of druid and I believe they could have done it differently, but I’ll put that in a separate post if asked because its off-topic otherwise)
This isn’t Rift. Any other elite spec has multiple build paths; there is no single stat that they need. The same should be true of druid. Forcing healing power on every druid in order for them to be effective is bad design.
That’s a matter of opinion, really.
There are quite a few types of gear that have healing on it. And with the ability to mix and match to get your desired stats it’s all about us choosing to make it a GOOD design for ourselves.
Even if I wanted to grab extra ascended gear when no other profession needs healing power at all (literally any other stat can be useful to every profession, it’s just healing power that’s worthless), just try doing that in PvP.
You’re joking right?
I don’t even wanna continue from here.
You can’t get ideal stat combinations that have healing power in PvP. The amulets for that don’t exist. How is that a joke?
Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol
Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.
And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).
I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.
Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^
Pardon for my being off subject.
You do not need to be in Cleric to maximize the duration of Protection, upkeep Aegis, grant quickness, invulnerable, upkeep permanent reflection, or anything. That’s why people play zerker Guardian, since none of the Guardian’s selling point requires healing power.
Because “ideal” is what? Meta? lol
Ideal stats depends on what you intend to do. This is why there are Bunker, Burst, etc.
And I see a lot of comparing to Guard who doesn’t have to give up stats? Okay then let’s compare it to Cleric or a Soldier Bunker Guard. Since we’re talking about sustain and not trying to compare apples to oranges. (Boons to Heals).
I think you guys should play a bit longer before you rush to think you know 100%. Give Druid some time and see how it works in “the meta” since that seems to be such a big deal.
Also agree with Shoe, AgitatedFox, and Zev. ^.^
Pardon for my being off subject.
Candyhearts, you are mixing up PvP and PvE “meta”. (I would also like to add that META stands for Most Efficient Tactics Available—nothing more, nothing less, and certainly nothing nefarious. There will always be a meta, since some builds will always be more powerful than others. This is not a bad thing, as you are suggesting, but it is inevitable due to game balance.)
While I only have 10 hours on Druid, I have a thousand hours on base Ranger. I have 430 hours on my PvP bunker Guardian. As it is, Druid has no shot of replacing any of the current successful bunker classes save for organized team fights (though from my experience in WvW, it is easy for the other side to spot when you enter CAF and focus you down in a hot second). This is because Druid focuses solely on reactive healing, rather than proactive defense.
A single, well-timed Aegis can negate essentially infinite spike damage (in this case, my Guardian’s entire health bar, or about ~17k HP). Protection can negate 33% of damage entirely. You can run these defenses while maintaining full offensive pressure. Healing Power is not required for either of these boons, which individually can negate far more damage than healing can recover. Good bunkers do not rely solely on healing, because there is no such thing as slow, sustained damage in PvP—unless you are fighting another bunker build (a fight during which both bunkers will largely remain at 80+% health indefinitely). (Also remember that many classes deal bonus damage to enemies below 50% health—if you take 50% of your HP in damage very quickly, they can spike you for more even quicker). No matter how amazing the Druid’s healing is, it is always one step behind the class dealing the damage, and therefore at the mercy of the damage-dealer. After all, healing is useless UNTIL you take damage. For a class with medium armor and a medium-tier health pool, this is risky business without active damage mitigation.
Because Druid also has very low DPS if it aims to run a Healing Power build (in PvP, pet damage is easily negated by strafing, stealthing, or simply CCing the pet), it cannot defeat other bunker builds. It also cannot defeat spike damage builds before a good spike damager can kill them (especially considering base Druid’s lack of stunbreak and its very conditional condition cleansing). Traditionally, ranger survives in PvP through mobility, heavy spike damage pressure (which forces other spike damagers to retreat temporarily), and instant condition cleansing+CC through the Wilderness Survival trait line. The Druid line does not end our reliance on any of these things for survival, and adds a new state (CAF) where we are completely vulnerable to damage WITHOUT putting any pressure on our enemy (or minimal pressure, now that Irenio has said he will add minor damage to CAF skills).
I am not trying to be insensitive, and I am happy that people enjoyed Druid as-is. But it has too many weaknesses right now to even be on-par with base Ranger in most situations, and I abhor the idea of having Druid be a one-trick pony whose only purpose is to play whack-a-mole with allies’ health bars. Even if it is not ’zerker meta, healing meta will get very old, very fast. Druid needs more active, dynamic play that accounts for a variety of situations—including situations that require DPS—and it needs more synergy with base Ranger and the pet in order to “fit” with the Ranger class more comfortably.
you sound like your talking about solo play, not team play, which obviously solo a pure healing build would only be reactive to dps, but as a team its very effective. also druid is about burst healing not slow sustain healing. (thats what ventari is). i do agree with you that healing is reactive compared to defensive boons , but thats not a bad thing when as a team, everyone gets hit.
no one is saying druid can solo fight and win as a bunker. but as a duo(or more) it is a force to be reckoned with.
I think a big problem people are having is trying to force the old meta into the new one, when we dont even know how the new meta will be once everything is done being balanced. Play any game, the meta changes, it wont always be the same thing. some people just cant adapt and cant do as well and complain.