Guild Wars 2

There’s nothing wrong with a druid being able to perma daze if they spec to perma daze. It allows the ranger to have a completely unique playstyle from any other class, and that’s all the build is even capable of doing. Nobody in their right mind will allow it to happen against them as it’s going to become the most predicable skill in the entire game, and even if enemies get hit by it without a stunbreak they’re still able to kite and dodge. People are overestimating the capabilities of this absurdly.

I’ve played it in high MMR all weekend and it’s basically the only defense I had as a druid giving me time to either heal or cast Natural Convergence. Even then, it wasn’t uncommon for it to be dodged, blocked, or blinded leaving me extremely vulnerable. It was a well balanced trade off and nerfing this is just going to break the build entirely forcing druids to spec into something more reliable. Marksmanship would have no place in a druid build.

Just because a class is capable of doing something doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to happen. If this were true burn guards and pu mesmers would insta-kill every single person they see. People will adapt and the build will still hopefully have a place. That’s if it’s given it’s deserved time.

A long duration daze on a short cooldown is a threat without the need to deal damage.
But would it really be OP knowing that stability, blind, aegis exist?
That avatar can’t be turned off, its ressource build up slowly.

Yea “Perma Daze” isn’t even possible guys you’re exagerating it.
And anyway each class has 1 total cheesy broken department, that’s balance in GW2.
Why not lot of daze for druid, it’s not like there’s no counterplay to it.

RevanCorana.8942:

A long duration daze on a short cooldown is a threat without the need to deal damage.
But would it really be OP knowing that stability, blind, aegis exist?
That avatar can’t be turned off, its ressource build up slowly.

Yea “Perma Daze” isn’t even possible guys you’re exagerating it.
And anyway each class has 1 total cheesy broken department, that’s balance in GW2.
Why not lot of daze for druid, it’s not like there’s no counterplay to it.

Thank you.

At the same time, I have no idea why people are fear mongering.

Do you know the reason why Interrupt Mesmer is not meta?

Exactly. Stab. And Organized teams.

Interrupt Mesmer will be 10x more effective in the CC department. And yet people are whining about druid?

LOL. gw2 community.

Mesmer can put your heal for 15 seconds CD, people are forgetting that.

You guys aren’t thinking about how it could be abused enough.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You guys aren’t thinking about how it could be abused enough.

Allow me to give you a comparison as a mesmer main. I pvp a lot too, almost 5k games, 2k of those are from mesmer.

The builds below are just for the sake of comparison.

1st Build

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW8enknB1oh9fCmpBEgilTjysFGibgMA2ggqOav2tF-TpwXABXWGAg9HAA

Interrupts:

Shield 5 (2 times) AoE
MoD (2 times, Insta Cast 1200 range) AoE
Chaos Storm AoE
Well Of Eternity (3 pulses all CC) AoE
Diversion
Rune Of Nightmare

Traits:

Chaotic Interruption (Immob, Random Condition, Gain 5 Stacks of Might, One more Boon No Icd) (10X better than Ancient Seeds since it has no IcD
Slow on Interrupt No Icd
Quickness on Interrupt 5 sec ICD
All dazes become 1 sec Stun 5 sec ICd
Weakness on Interrupt No Icd
Damage on Interrupt 2-4k Damage
Increased 10 Seconds CD on interrupt No ICD
Vuln On Interrupt 3 stacks No ICD
Dazing A Foe gets them 5 stacks on Vuln too

One Interrupt Even as easy as an Auto attack procs all those of the above, Chaos Storm on a point you get that Immob with No ICD assuming it interrupts

AoE interrupts Would proc All of those effects PER target, Easy 25 stacks of might, Can you imagine how much Power Block would hit you?

There are many varieties to this build, you can take Mistrust, AoE Diversion, Hell you can even get Rune of Perplexity if you want.

Druid.

MoC has a 5 Sec CD
AF is not permanent, A competent team will just focus the ranger or CC him (Remember AF does not have STAB)
Ancient Seeds has an ICD
AF is not the Same As DS, It will run out whatever you do.
CCs:

LB 1
Sb 1
Spike Trap
GS 1
Taunt?
Swap on staff If traited
Glyph 2
LI

(again you have to have all these at 1 time if you wanna compare the CCs mesmer have)

Are you people worried about A 6 second daze?

PS: Being Dazed, you can still dodge or move.

Vs An Traited Interrupt mesmer you cannot do anything.

On top of this, mesmer could remove stability. Ranger can’t. MoC Druid gets absolutely hardcountered by stability, while being vulnerable to cc and burst itself.

StickerHappy.8052:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

You guys aren’t thinking about how it could be abused enough.

Allow me to give you a comparison as a mesmer main. I pvp a lot too, almost 5k games, 2k of those are from mesmer.

The builds below are just for the sake of comparison.

1st Build

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAW8enknB1oh9fCmpBEgilTjysFGibgMA2ggqOav2tF-TpwXABXWGAg9HAA

Interrupts:

Shield 5 (2 times) AoE
MoD (2 times, Insta Cast 1200 range) AoE
Chaos Storm AoE
Well Of Eternity (3 pulses all CC) AoE
Diversion
Rune Of Nightmare

Traits:

Chaotic Interruption (Immob, Random Condition, Gain 5 Stacks of Might, One more Boon No Icd) (10X better than Ancient Seeds since it has no IcD
Slow on Interrupt No Icd
Quickness on Interrupt 5 sec ICD
All dazes become 1 sec Stun 5 sec ICd
Weakness on Interrupt No Icd
Damage on Interrupt 2-4k Damage
Increased 10 Seconds CD on interrupt No ICD
Vuln On Interrupt 3 stacks No ICD
Dazing A Foe gets them 5 stacks on Vuln too

One Interrupt Even as easy as an Auto attack procs all those of the above, Chaos Storm on a point you get that Immob with No ICD assuming it interrupts

AoE interrupts Would proc All of those effects PER target, Easy 25 stacks of might, Can you imagine how much Power Block would hit you?

There are many varieties to this build, you can take Mistrust, AoE Diversion, Hell you can even get Rune of Perplexity if you want.

Druid.

MoC has a 5 Sec CD
AF is not permanent, A competent team will just focus the ranger or CC him (Remember AF does not have STAB)
Ancient Seeds has an ICD
AF is not the Same As DS, It will run out whatever you do.
CCs:

LB 1
Sb 1
Spike Trap
GS 1
Taunt?
Swap on staff If traited
Glyph 2
LI

(again you have to have all these at 1 time if you wanna compare the CCs mesmer have)

Are you people worried about A 6 second daze?

PS: Being Dazed, you can still dodge or move.

Vs An Traited Interrupt mesmer you cannot do anything.

Yeah, ranger community tend to feel like they’re too strong and need nerf constantly :P
It’s like there’re living in this closed box, that can only see themselves but not other classes.

We Heal as One is the best example, since the build that utilize it is really weak, yet people want to justify nerfing it to ground is legit. This is the way of ranger’s community (sigh)

Aomine.5012:

…Yeah, ranger community tend to feel like they’re too strong and need nerf constantly :P
It’s like there’re living in this closed box, that can only see themselves but not other classes.

We Heal as One is the best example, since the build that utilize it is really weak, yet people want to justify nerfing it to ground is legit. This is the way of ranger’s community (sigh)

I don’t think so, Rangers in general just want things to be balanced.

Just because there are OP builds on other classes, doesn’t mean Ranger needs them too (not that Daze is OP, its not, maybe if you use two Druids at once), all the other builds and classes need to be brought into line. If you just continually buff things to bring them up to other classes, you just end up with everything being OP. That is called power creep.

The WHaO nerf was totally justified, you didn’t need to make a build specifically to abuse it, you just needed a couple mates to run around WvW with for a while, then you can stack all boons forever, literally forever. Then go off on your own and maintain every boon. How is that in any way balanced?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

StickerHappy.8052:

…Just you wait, some random “top player” will say it is OP and Anet will nerf MoC or LI. I am calling it out now.

Well, seriously, anyone can see that. Nobody should be able to permanently Daze 5 people. Anyone that thinks Ranger should be able to, because it is bottom tier, is not actually interested in balance.

Essentially, two Druids could hold mid indefinitely by chaining CC to lock everyone out of their skills and healing each other.

We want Ranger and Druid to be good and balanced, not good because it is unbalanced.

This is a completely unrealistic scenario. This daze is not instant and requires specific circumstances like being in celestial form. You should look at it more like rampage as one or tornardo which both actually also deal damage while CCing.

Again, this daze still allows you to move/dodge. It is pretty much the softest CC form and you can dodge it VERY easy to begin with.

Dojo.1867:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

StickerHappy.8052:

…Just you wait, some random “top player” will say it is OP and Anet will nerf MoC or LI. I am calling it out now.

Well, seriously, anyone can see that. Nobody should be able to permanently Daze 5 people. Anyone that thinks Ranger should be able to, because it is bottom tier, is not actually interested in balance.

Essentially, two Druids could hold mid indefinitely by chaining CC to lock everyone out of their skills and healing each other.

We want Ranger and Druid to be good and balanced, not good because it is unbalanced.

This is a completely unrealistic scenario. This daze is not instant and requires specific circumstances like being in celestial form. You should look at it more like rampage as one or tornardo which both actually also deal damage while CCing.

Again, this daze still allows you to move/dodge. It is pretty much the softest CC form and you can dodge it VERY easy to begin with.

They have to balance around what is possible, not what is probable.

Plus, MoC and LI pretty well nullifies any PvE content they make that has mobs without break bars.

I just think they will nerf it because it has the possibility of being crazy strong when combined with tons of healing.

Would it be op, if a (nomad) bunkerbuild can oneshot enemys? Yes? Well, ranger can do this. But it is far from op, because it is not reliable and has too many trade-offs. I think, similar is true for MoC druid.

I feel like it’s fantasies already…
If 2 druids on spot.. if three druids on spot…
Do you even know how much CC can make skillCracker warrior without stability and brake stuns?
How much can do 2-3 warriors on spot? They will just rekt anyone.
5 sec daze are too much??? you can run when dazed, you can dodge when dazed.
SkullCrack STUN you for 4 sec and you can’t dodge/run etc and you will send 0 Traits for these. after 4 sec Stun you switch, do 6sec CC chain from hammer, and you are ready do return to mace and SkullCrack for 4 sec again, then tremmor for 2 sec, ummel for 1 sec and all hammer cc comes back from CD and you are ready 6sec CC chain from hammer again. and it’s not OP, but on paper it’s totally broken and OP.

For 6sec Daze DoDo, you have to take 2 specific trait lines, and you can apply these mess only in DamageLess build, so what’s the problem?

Rizo.9534:

I feel like it’s fantasies already…
If 2 druids on spot.. if three druids on spot…
Do you even know how much CC can make skillCracker warrior without stability and brake stuns?
How much can do 2-3 warriors on spot? They will just rekt anyone.
5 sec daze are too much??? you can run when dazed, you can dodge when dazed.
SkullCrack STUN you for 4 sec and you can’t dodge/run etc and you will send 0 Traits for these. after 4 sec Stun you switch, do 6sec CC chain from hammer, and you are ready do return to mace and SkullCrack for 4 sec again, then tremmor for 2 sec, ummel for 1 sec and all hammer cc comes back from CD and you are ready 6sec CC chain from hammer again. and it’s not OP, but on paper it’s totally broken and OP.

For 6sec Daze DoDo, you have to take 2 specific trait lines, and you can apply these mess only in DamageLess build, so what’s the problem?

Well, that also could work pretty well. The wars could chain AoE CC so they take much less damage, rip through stability and are far less vulnerable to CC themselves as they are working together. They would have so much sustain because they can heal each other and still deal good DPS with their class mechanic. Not that they really need to deal much damage, they just need to hold the point while the other 3 take and keep far and close. They wouldn’t really even need to setup for extending their CC, they have so much.

It’s not really OP, its probably just a tactic that could work.

Back to MoC Druid though… I just can’t see the devs letting it stand as is. I’ll be very surprised, though happy, if they do.

cafard.8953:

I’m not sure who your “regular rangers” are who pick Moment of Clarity and equip a single daze, and a short one at that, but if they feel that’s a good deal, i’ve got a bridge to sell them.

Remorseless rangers that gets the benefit of the secondary effect aswell, attack of opportunity, obviously.

Lazze.9870:

cafard.8953:

I’m not sure who your “regular rangers” are who pick Moment of Clarity and equip a single daze, and a short one at that, but if they feel that’s a good deal, i’ve got a bridge to sell them.

Remorseless rangers that gets the benefit of the secondary effect aswell, attack of opportunity, obviously.

Or using a power build, not using full signets or not in PvE or is using LB/GS or dual melee. AoO is very powerful. It’s pretty great when you use PBS on someone, get an interrupt, and then the next LRS is an AoO, and it crits. If you had AA turned off, you could get a remorseless proc in there too.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Lazze.9870:

cafard.8953:

I’m not sure who your “regular rangers” are who pick Moment of Clarity and equip a single daze, and a short one at that, but if they feel that’s a good deal, i’ve got a bridge to sell them.

Remorseless rangers that gets the benefit of the secondary effect aswell, attack of opportunity, obviously.

Or using a power build, not using full signets or not in PvE or is using LB/GS or dual melee. AoO is very powerful. It’s pretty great when you use PBS on someone, get an interrupt, and then the next LRS is an AoO, and it crits. If you had AA turned off, you could get a remorseless proc in there too.

Well, yeah, I rarely run Marksmanship in PvP without Remorseless, so that’s the same to me

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Aomine.5012:

…Yeah, ranger community tend to feel like they’re too strong and need nerf constantly :P
It’s like there’re living in this closed box, that can only see themselves but not other classes.

We Heal as One is the best example, since the build that utilize it is really weak, yet people want to justify nerfing it to ground is legit. This is the way of ranger’s community (sigh)

I don’t think so, Rangers in general just want things to be balanced.

Just because there are OP builds on other classes, doesn’t mean Ranger needs them too (not that Daze is OP, its not, maybe if you use two Druids at once), all the other builds and classes need to be brought into line. If you just continually buff things to bring them up to other classes, you just end up with everything being OP. That is called power creep.

The WHaO nerf was totally justified, you didn’t need to make a build specifically to abuse it, you just needed a couple mates to run around WvW with for a while, then you can stack all boons forever, literally forever. Then go off on your own and maintain every boon. How is that in any way balanced?

With due respect Heim because you do a lot for the ranger community, allow me argue your points.

Saying that 2 druid point, it is true to an extent, but you and the other people still ignored my post, the stuff you mentioned daze and CC and what not can be done by 1 MESMER built for CC.

Another build for people ignoring my point.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAseWncfClfi1oBOqBEgilejyMAugFouUX1YF91itZD-T5AIABWXGAgzAgM7PAA

AoE Diversion ( 4 Clone Daze, each clone is 240 radius AoE Daze, including yourself), 1.4 Second Each, Instant)
AoE Chaos Storm (Random Conditions, Daze)
AoE Shield Stun (2 Hits so 2 Stuns)
AoE Mantra of Distraction (Instant 1200 Range)
AoE Gravity Well ( 3 pulses CCs Pull and Float, 90 Sec CD)

33% Daze Duration

AoE Slow
AoE Chill
Slow On Crit
AoE Cripple on Shatter

Alacrity on Shatter (No DE needed because of Illusionary Reversion, Persistence of Memory + Alacrity + Illusionist’s Celerity + Staff CD reduced)

Immob + 1 Condition, Gain 5 stacks of Might, + 1 more Boon on interrupt (No ICD)
Slow on Interrupt (No ICD)
> All of the CC above can hit 2 – 3 or even 4 times if your lucky. Easy 20 Stacks of might, 4x Immob 4 Conditions and I get 4 random Boons. 4 seconds of slow. This is 1 target. Its all the more easy to interrupt a lot via AoE CCs.

Are you telling me Druid Can CC better because of MoC? LOL

The build above is still doing High Damage, Supports Teammates via Wells and Alacrity.

PS: This is just 1 mesmer.

Important Note For every boon I have, Condi Duration increases by 3%, 6 Boons which is easy to get Via Chaos Storm and Chaotic Interruption will give 20% condi duration for my slow, Chill, Cripple, Confusion.

StickerHappy.8052:

Another build for people ignoring my point.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQNAseWncfClfi1oBOqBEgilejyMAugFouUX1YF91itZD-T5AIABWXGAgzAgM7PAA

AoE Diversion ( 4 Clone Daze, each clone is 240 radius AoE Daze, including yourself), 1.4 Second Each, Instant)
AoE Chaos Storm (Random Conditions, Daze)
AoE Shield Stun (2 Hits so 2 Stuns)
AoE Mantra of Distraction (Instant 1200 Range)
AoE Gravity Well ( 3 pulses CCs Pull and Float, 90 Sec CD)

33% Daze Duration

AoE Slow
AoE Chill
Slow On Crit
AoE Cripple on Shatter

Alacrity on Shatter (No DE needed because of Illusionary Reversion, Persistence of Memory + Alacrity + Illusionist’s Celerity + Staff CD reduced)

Immob + 1 Condition, Gain 5 stacks of Might, + 1 more Boon on interrupt (No ICD)
Slow on Interrupt (No ICD)
> All of the CC above can hit 2 – 3 or even 4 times if your lucky. Easy 20 Stacks of might, 4x Immob 4 Conditions and I get 4 random Boons. 4 seconds of slow. This is 1 target. Its all the more easy to interrupt a lot via AoE CCs.

Are you telling me Druid Can CC better because of MoC? LOL

The build above is still doing High Damage, Supports Teammates via Wells and Alacrity.

PS: This is just 1 mesmer.

Important Note For every boon I have, Condi Duration increases by 3%, 6 Boons which is easy to get Via Chaos Storm and Chaotic Interruption will give 20% condi duration for my slow, Chill, Cripple, Confusion.

Like I said before, ranger community has this self-defeating attitude.

They thought WHaO is OP because they don’t know how other classes can easily get these already. The permanent quickness is not practical in PVP at all due to pet swap limitation and long CD skills. Protection is gimmick Guard spam that disrupt pet’s attack pattern. Also instead of nerfing Protection and Quickness uptime, all Anet do is destroy the skill entirely, and seem like some fake ranger main here are fine with it.

@ StickerHappy
I totally get what you are saying mate, I wasn’t ignoring your post. The difference with the Mesmer, though, is it cannot heal like a Druid, having two of them together is not much more of an advantage. Two Druids working together though? Alternating CAF and GotT/GoEq? Pretty strong.

I don’t think its OP, I keep saying that and I think people think I do for some reason, I can just see that the devs will feel it is so.

@ Aomine
I don’t think you really don’t get how mechanics in this game work, no offense intended. You could stack every boon in the game out of combat and then go run around with perma everything and have swapped out the traits and skills that gave you them. No need to run QZ or Guard or Zephy’s Speed or anything, you can do it all OOC, then swap everything out for other stuff. That is OP and wrong.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

@ StickerHappy
I totally get what you are saying mate, I wasn’t ignoring your post. The difference with the Mesmer, though, is it cannot heal like a Druid, having two of them together is not much more of an advantage. Two Druids working together though? Alternating CAF and GotT/GoEq? Pretty strong.

I don’t think its OP, I keep saying that and I think people think I do for some reason, I can just see that the devs will feel it is so.

@ Aomine
I don’t think you really don’t get how mechanics in this game work, no offense intended. You could stack every boon in the game out of combat and then go run around with perma everything and have swapped out the traits and skills that gave you them. No need to run QZ or Guard or Zephy’s Speed or anything, you can do it all OOC, then swap everything out for other stuff. That is OP and wrong.

So explain to me how anyone stack permanent quickness Out of Combat with WHaO then? People are using this to justify the nerf.
Pet swap quickness requires you to be in combat to work.
Also switching pet cancels all boons on pet.
If you want 25 stacks of might, protection, and this so-called permanent quickness, you have to do everything within combat because pet swap cancels the boons on pet, so you will only get this permanent quickness everyone was complaining about if you do it in combat. I already have a post talking about how all this is unpractical in PVP.

So you have to:
1. Get in combat
2. Swap pet for no reason right when you hit your foe.
3. Use QZ (your cleanse and stunbreak 48 CD) immediately for no reason.
4. Burn your heal for no reason (If you do it too slow, pet’s quickness will not stack high enough)
5. Congratz, you got your 20secs quickness, now ready to be killed since you have no heal, no cleanse, no stun-break, no on demand pet swap, completely vulnerable.
6. After pet is swapped again, all boons are gone and you need to rebuild quickness on pet again.

If you tell me you need 4 Guardians around you to do it, it is totally unpractical because Guardians themselves can keep up the quickness TO THE WHOLE PARTY already.

Here’s the thing, against any sort of half decent opponent, at least during the beta, the moment you went celestial form you were perma-CC’d and had all the damage immediately focused in your direction.

The “perma-daze” is a gimmick that looks super strong on paper and just doesn’t work in practice, mostly because celestial form didn’t have the tools it needed to work in high level PvP without having team support (support isn’t just healing for all of those that need an fyi, it involves peeling, pressuring, CCing, and mitigation), which is kind of extremely contradicting considering that as a Druid, you are supposed to be the support, not need the support.

Does the Moment of Clarity combo have potential? Definitely. But it’s also basically the only thing Druid has going for it outside of healing, and picking up Moment of Clarity means that you lose either WS or NM (or BM), and all 3 of those options are better picks (either taking WS or NM is basically mandatory for survival, and having both is preferred) than Marksmanship.

So my opinion on it is that the core issues with the Druid not having enough self support or team support in favor of just being a healbot that can be replaced by a cele ele or bunker guard any day and not be missed really needs some fixing before any sort of thing Druid had that could be considered strong and NOT a heal needs to be changed.

Aka the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and Moment of Clarity with Druid was definitely not the squeaky wheel.

the only thing that needs to change is Lunar Impact. should be 2.5s baseline. don’t touch MoC.

WHaO nerf wasn’t asked by the ranger community lolwut.
Devs released it and nerfed it on their own less than 1 day after release because they hadnt tested it properly in house and most likely other classes complaints about it.
But really it wasn’t any good in pvp, it just broke pve.

@ Aomine

You don’t even need to use the pet swap, all you need is water runes on a rubbish armor set, NM and +20% boon duration food. Use QZ while OOC, now you and the pet have 9.6s of Quickness. Then use traited WHaO. Now you and the pet have 30s of Quickness. Wait 16s for WHaO to CD, use it again. Now you and the pet have 47s of Quickness. Etcetera. You just get the boons up, put WHaO on auto, leave it for 10mins and then swap everything out for gear and traits you want and go roam with all boons forever. Once you have enough duration, you do not need to use WHaO on recharge or burn you stunbreak or condi removal, you can just use it whenever you need it as you already have days of duration to play with.

So, to stack everything including 25 might, you’d get WH, Altruism/Water Runes, Frost Spirit, QZ, Guard, Resounding Timbre, Nature’s Vengeance. Use all the skills once, then put WHaO on auto cast, go make a coffee, come back and swap out all the skills and traits to whatever build you want to use, just keep WHaO. Use WHaO every now and again to maintain the boons. That’s it.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

@ Aomine

You don’t even need to use the pet swap, all you need is water runes on a rubbish armor set, NM and +20% boon duration food. Use QZ while OOC, now you and the pet have 9.6s of Quickness. Then use traited WHaO. Now you and the pet have 30s of Quickness. Wait 16s for WHaO to CD, use it again. Now you and the pet have 47s of Quickness. Etcetera. You just get the boons up, put WHaO on auto, leave it for 10mins and then swap everything out for gear and traits you want and go roam with all boons forever. Once you have enough duration, you do not need to use WHaO on recharge or burn you stunbreak or condi removal, you can just use it whenever you need it as you already have days of duration to play with.

So, to stack everything including 25 might, you’d get WH, Altruism/Water Runes, Frost Spirit, QZ, Guard, Resounding Timbre, Nature’s Vengeance. Use all the skills once, then put WHaO on auto cast, go make a coffee, come back and swap out all the skills and traits to whatever build you want to use, just keep WHaO. Use WHaO every now and again to maintain the boons. That’s it.

So tell me how is camping in the same pet, using useless runes like Rune of Water is practical? The one that’d actually live this long in pvp is Bear, which is near useless in PVP.

I do agree it’s abit imba in PVE when you do something like rune swap and stuff..
But in the end, what Anet does is make it near useless instead of balance it out.

Also are you sure the way it copy boons is copy yours to pet, and then after your pet gets yours, copy it back to you? I don’t remember getting this long duration boons as you mentioned from just one QZ. Seems only 2 times not 3 times.
It’s too late to test it anyway.

Aomine.5012:

…So tell me how is camping in the same pet, using useless runes like Rune of Water is practical? The one that’d actually live this long in pvp is Bear, which is near useless in PVP.

I do agree it’s abit imba in PVE when you do something like rune swap and stuff..
But in the end, what Anet does is make it near useless instead of balance it out.

Why would you think you need to camp the same pet? Once you have long enough durations setup on yourself, you can swap at will.

This is not really all that effective for sPvP because of the long setup time, but it totally breaks WvW and PvE.

While in the current state of the game a class with perma daze would be a problem. In Hot not so much. Just as two Druids could perma daze Two Revs could give perma stability. This sounds balanced to me (not really as the druid is doing very little else and the Revenant could still be jacking stuff up.)

I hate the ideal of Druid its suppose to be a support sec all is does is heal. Don’t get the Druid nerfed because we are look at the game and class with a narrow view.

Two Druid vs Two Rev who do you think will win. I honestly believe Revenant will end up taking the spots that could go to the Druid.

I don’t want Rangers/Druids to be Overpowered but at this rate not only will we not be OP we wont even have a fighting chance.

I ran a full daze build in BWE3. I had MoC, LI, glyph of equality, the hilt bash, etc. I would say, only 50% of the dazes I cast actually hit people. chronos and revs were basically perma blocking everything, aegis was on everything, and other times I was blinded.

long story short, my 6s daze LI’s were quite underwhelming.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

@ StickerHappy
I totally get what you are saying mate, I wasn’t ignoring your post. The difference with the Mesmer, though, is it cannot heal like a Druid, having two of them together is not much more of an advantage. Two Druids working together though? Alternating CAF and GotT/GoEq? Pretty strong.

I don’t think its OP, I keep saying that and I think people think I do for some reason, I can just see that the devs will feel it is so.

@ Aomine
I don’t think you really don’t get how mechanics in this game work, no offense intended. You could stack every boon in the game out of combat and then go run around with perma everything and have swapped out the traits and skills that gave you them. No need to run QZ or Guard or Zephy’s Speed or anything, you can do it all OOC, then swap everything out for other stuff. That is OP and wrong.

Oh I wasnt referring to you though, I was really hitting at the OP, who just vanished and he was the one who thinks MoC is too strong.

You have fair points really, but you do know that they will tone down healing and fix it to scale with healing power, As it stands now Druid heals decent even with 0 Healing power Stat. I am assuming HoT will fix this.

StickerHappy.8052:

Oh I wasnt referring to you though, I was really hitting at the OP, who just vanished and he was the one who thinks MoC is too strong.

I have read every post in this thread. I made my points earlier and see no reason to keep repeating them needlessly.

Its clear that regardless of what approach I take, people will both misinterpret what I say and will ignore my reasoning. Therefore I do not post often and when I do, I usually don’t reply because I don’t like to be dragged into debates on irrelevant issues like what type of non druid ranger runs Moment of Clarity in PvP.

Check out these two stat screens from a couple PvP games I had during beta. This build can perma daze in aoe. It can heal for up to 1.3 million hp per match. It can cleanse up to 1000 conditions a game. It can bunk 2v5. The only limit to how high these numbers get is how many bodies the enemy team throws at you.

Hopefully seeing these screenshots at least gives you some idea of where my views are coming from.

ps – Your elaborate mesmer build is literally a single condi burst from death. A burn guard would eat you alive.

Wow amazing healing for 1.3 million imagine if you were actually doing something like dealing 1.3 million in damage. The fact you were not shutdown in a beta weekend means nothing.

Just about any class can triple the damage done by a druid. Using this as a scale one can easily out pace a druids healing.

This just illustrates what a druid could do if were given a real aoe weapon set.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Wow amazing healing for 1.3 million imagine if you were actually doing something like dealing 1.3 million in damage. The fact you were not shutdown in a beta weekend means nothing.

Just about any class can triple the damage done by a druid. Using this as a scale one can easily out pace a druids healing.

This just illustrates what a druid could do if were given a real aoe weapon set.

Bunkers are a thing, eh? You don’t need to deal damage to win the match, just hold the points. If two Druids can bunker mid against the other team, then you have 2 players to take far and hold it and one other to take close and then help at mid.

If is a mighty big word.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Wow amazing healing for 1.3 million imagine if you were actually doing something like dealing 1.3 million in damage. The fact you were not shutdown in a beta weekend means nothing.

Just about any class can triple the damage done by a druid. Using this as a scale one can easily out pace a druids healing.

This just illustrates what a druid could do if were given a real aoe weapon set.

Bunkers are a thing, eh? You don’t need to deal damage to win the match, just hold the points. If two Druids can bunker mid against the other team, then you have 2 players to take far and hold it and one other to take close and then help at mid.

Revenant can hold mid against 4 ppl. tested it in ranked and revenant + whatever else can hold mid against 5 man + kill someone by focus? i run to mid once a minute, dropped few CC and heals on mid and run back on spot as druid, and that’s was all. all damage revenant outhealed by itself, and HP does not dropped above 40%…
Only when necro unload signet on it, then HP dropped to 20% and back to 100%.

IF Thief/war + mesmer will focus druid, it will die faster than mesmer will destroy last shatter. It was already tested many times. Zerker mesmer can 1shot in 1.1seccond guardian with sentinel amulet from stealth. there’s nothing can save 15k hp bunker druid.
In low tier druid are cool, but on high mmr druid blowing like bubble, and it’s with old healing power. With new healing power will be much worse

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Dojo.1867:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

StickerHappy.8052:

…Just you wait, some random “top player” will say it is OP and Anet will nerf MoC or LI. I am calling it out now.

Well, seriously, anyone can see that. Nobody should be able to permanently Daze 5 people. Anyone that thinks Ranger should be able to, because it is bottom tier, is not actually interested in balance.

Essentially, two Druids could hold mid indefinitely by chaining CC to lock everyone out of their skills and healing each other.

We want Ranger and Druid to be good and balanced, not good because it is unbalanced.

This is a completely unrealistic scenario. This daze is not instant and requires specific circumstances like being in celestial form. You should look at it more like rampage as one or tornardo which both actually also deal damage while CCing.

Again, this daze still allows you to move/dodge. It is pretty much the softest CC form and you can dodge it VERY easy to begin with.

They have to balance around what is possible, not what is probable.

Plus, MoC and LI pretty well nullifies any PvE content they make that has mobs without break bars.

I just think they will nerf it because it has the possibility of being crazy strong when combined with tons of healing.

I don’t think you understand the concept. They are ALREADY balancing it. This has nothing to do with propability. The CC already IS:

• very soft in the form of daze
• very well telegraphed
• very conditional setup with having to fill enough astral force/going celestial
• requires specific build, there are propably better lines for druid than MM

I really have to question your PvP experience if you think this is remotely at the level of CC/lockdown already in the game on warrior, mesmer, thief, necro, engineer. Basically all existing classes have easy access to almost permanent lockdown just integrated into normal builds. I really advise you give this one some time in action before you cry for nerfs.

A healing class with high healing per match… Is there suppose to be a point here? They have no damage mitigation for themselves or for teammates. Their heals and dazes are literally the only things keeping them and teammates alive.

This thread is beyond pointless. There is no focus and whatever ridiculous argument trying to be made is based off of a couple of numbers from pictures.

As I said many times, I’ve played with MoC druid and they felt fairly balanced. A daze build can be strong but there are a myriad of soft and hard counters to keep it balanced.

Even now, all damage based druid builds are already being nerfed since base heals are being nerfed. You people need to stop freaking out over a 3 day long test and pushing a fun and useful specialization into dirt before it even comes out.

Leave it to the ranger community to complain about their own capabilities rather than the people who have actually played against it.

Dojo.1867:

…I really have to question your PvP experience if you think this is remotely at the level of CC/lockdown already in the game on warrior, mesmer, thief, necro, engineer. Basically all existing classes have easy access to almost permanent lockdown just integrated into normal builds. I really advise you give this one some time in action before you cry for nerfs.

• I have not played the game in 12 months.
• I have never said I thought LI/MoC was OP. In fact, I have done the total opposite on several occasions.
• I stated that I think it has the possibility of being OP if you had two Druids working together to heal each other and CC an area with Daze. One in CAF the other not. It’s not just LI, they can have dual staff for AoE daze every 10s, GoTT and GoEq as well. Two of those could be a pretty amazing mid bunker duo. Theory.
• I also stated that I think ANet will see this as OP and nerf it, its a numbers game.
• I have never cried for nerfs. I suggested changes for the skill IF ANet were to nerf it, rather than change MoC. In such a way that I think it would actually be an improvement over currently. ie If they nerf the duration, they should also make it a 1/4s cast.

Hammerguard.9834:

A healing class with high healing per match… Is there suppose to be a point here? They have no damage mitigation for themselves or for teammates. Their heals and dazes are literally the only things keeping them and teammates alive…

I have to look at it like this; If a good DPSer is doing 800k-1M damage per match, then the Druid is nullifying one persons damage as well as doing 150k damage themselves.

Ryan;

I’m not saying that I disagree with your sentiment or that you’re wrong, personally. I’m saying that I didn’t find Druid strong enough anyhow during the beta, and that it would be preferable to see how the other side of the table (the improvements side) gets handled before we start talking about getting rid of the only strong thing about Druid bar pure, replaceable healing.

I don’t even think Druid, in its BWE state, would compete for a slot in a premade 5 man team composition in terms of pure optimization. It’s too healing pure, and it gets shut down way too easily without Stability and Mitigation. I don’t see why you wouldn’t just run a cele ele or bunker guard over a Druid for healing/support, and cele ele + everything else that can do damage for damage.

Classic case of rangers performing too linear of a role while other classes perform way too many roles.

Ryan.9387:

StickerHappy.8052:

Oh I wasnt referring to you though, I was really hitting at the OP, who just vanished and he was the one who thinks MoC is too strong.

I have read every post in this thread. I made my points earlier and see no reason to keep repeating them needlessly.

Its clear that regardless of what approach I take, people will both misinterpret what I say and will ignore my reasoning. Therefore I do not post often and when I do, I usually don’t reply because I don’t like to be dragged into debates on irrelevant issues like what type of non druid ranger runs Moment of Clarity in PvP.

Check out these two stat screens from a couple PvP games I had during beta. This build can perma daze in aoe. It can heal for up to 1.3 million hp per match. It can cleanse up to 1000 conditions a game. It can bunk 2v5. The only limit to how high these numbers get is how many bodies the enemy team throws at you.

Hopefully seeing these screenshots at least gives you some idea of where my views are coming from.

ps – Your elaborate mesmer build is literally a single condi burst from death. A burn guard would eat you alive.

If you read my post I said the builds are only for comparison. Comparison to CC. Of course I can make a real build If thats what you want.

The topic Here is MoC, not the ability to heal, not the ability the bunk. That were the points I was refuting.

So moment of clarity:

100% longer stun and daze duration and
Gain attack of opportunity on interrupt.

Is too strong with druid. Especially skills like astral form 3 (6s daze on a (5s) cooldown). On the flip side the trait is balanced on regular ranger because regular rangers only have access to Hilt Bash and Shortbow 5. (Pigs don’t really count)

I propose the addition of an ICD to the duration portion of the trait. Say 15s. This would have no effect on regular rangers because they only reasonably take one of their two stuns which both have a cool down longer than 15s. This would reduce the oppressive nature of the combo on druid without ruining the trait for regular rangers.

Thoughts?

Nowhere in your OP addresses healing, bunker, damage. We are talking about the trait here. You are giving some unrelated ideas here for the sake of Argument. I have my reason to believe you just wanted nerfs.

Again I will say this to you, What I said to Heim, The healing power scaling to druid heals are in talks right now. They will fix that scaling for sure, because going Marauder still gave you decent heals with 0 healing power.

PRO TIPS

• Healing to Allies also count Ressing downed bodies which make up the bulk of this stat, Saying 1.3 Mil Hp is kinda iffy. Not all those stat are outgoing heals. Ressing has nothing to do with Druid

• You Also had SoW too, Of course your healing to self will jump a lot. its 100 per second on Celestial, more on settlers. A typical match is 15-20 mins. 90,000 Healing to self on that Stat comes from SoW alone. Can reach over 100k If you use a Healing Power based Amulet. SoW has nothing to do with Druid

• You have a water field in AF, You can blast that with Drake, for more heals + Clarion Bond Blast, Which again has nothing to do with Druid. Only the water field, but the results are easily repeated with Healing Spring.

• This is guess but I think you are traited For Windborne Notes and Using WH in your second weapon set. I just deduced for the facr that you had Might Swiftness Fury and Regen on at the same time which is easily done with Traited Clarion Bond or Warhorn 5. Having Almost Perma regen Is another boost for the Healing Stat, Self and to Allies. The reason I deduced this is because you do not have any survival skills, so you are very unlikely to be traited in WS This also has nothing do to with Druid

• Final Point This is beta, everything is out of whack. On top of the factors I gave you plus this is beta, thats the reason you are getting high healing numbers. You are totally built for Healing, I wouldn’t be surpised at all Heck, You do not even have A reliable stun breaker LOL.

Pls Feel Free to Refute My Points.

jcbroe.4329:

I don’t even think Druid, in its BWE state, would compete for a slot in a premade 5 man team composition in terms of pure optimization. It’s too healing pure, and it gets shut down way too easily without Stability and Mitigation.

Classic case of rangers performing too linear of a role while other classes perform way too many roles.

he’s kinda wrong, but so are you. there simply wasn’t enough time in the BWE3 to make the conclusion that druid wouldn’t make it into a premade comp. and I actually have no idea what youre basing this judgement on, considering a bunch of us were super successful running offensive hybrid builds.

I actually ran a celestial build that had plenty of stab (Enlargement + SotP), sustain (perma prot, evades), 1v1/bunker capability, heals, and utility for the team. it actually very much reminded me of shoutbow playstyle, except it had way more utility. I was also winning many 1v1’s while roaming with marauder stats.

regarding daze, the only skill that needs looking into is LI because it’s virtually spammable, and a 6s lockout is insane. equality glyph’s 4s was fine, the staff swap was fine, and hilt bash was fine.

why do you want to nerf the trait because one skill in astral form is OP w/ it……..instead of nerfing that one skill? increase that skills CD or lower the daze length. daze isn’t even OP.

ICD’s are kitten! no more ICD garbage on a balanced trait that allows for an incredibly fun, but niche, skill-based playstyle.

if they kitten up MoC, they are literally removing any reason to be a druid outside of dedicated healer…which as of now (including raids) is unnecessary in any content………………………..and yet there is NO DOUBT in my mind that they have already destroyed this trait, because the devs think like the OP: murder the trait….it’s easier than looking at all the individual skills and balancing them.

^that’s what I’m saying, decrease LI to like 2.5s base. MoC is too important for us.

mistsim.2748:

^that’s what I’m saying, decrease LI to like 2.5s base. MoC is too important for us.

sorry, i was referring to the original post that started the thread. totally agree w/ you.

mistsim.2748:

^that’s what I’m saying, decrease LI to like 2.5s base. MoC is too important for us.

If they do that, they should also reduce the cast time to 1/4s so that it can be used as an on-demand interrupt as well.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

mistsim.2748:

^that’s what I’m saying, decrease LI to like 2.5s base. MoC is too important for us.

If they do that, they should also reduce the cast time to 1/4s so that it can be used as an on-demand interrupt as well.

its going down to 2s with no other changes atm.

Kitty.1502:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

mistsim.2748:

^that’s what I’m saying, decrease LI to like 2.5s base. MoC is too important for us.

If they do that, they should also reduce the cast time to 1/4s so that it can be used as an on-demand interrupt as well.

its going down to 2s with no other changes atm.

Source?

Also, that would be rubbish, then.

Kitty.1502:

its going down to 2s with no other changes atm.

Going to also ask for the source. If it’s true, then it’s not so bad and pretty much expected.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Kitty.1502:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

mistsim.2748:

^that’s what I’m saying, decrease LI to like 2.5s base. MoC is too important for us.

If they do that, they should also reduce the cast time to 1/4s so that it can be used as an on-demand interrupt as well.

its going down to 2s with no other changes atm.

Source?

Also, that would be rubbish, then.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Post-BWE3-Druid-Changes/first#post5607061