Guild Wars 2

Haven’t really seen anyone post about this yet, so I wanted to bring it up and see what you guys have to say about it.

From reading over the possible December patch-notes, it really seems like they really want to cut down on the evasiveness of the Ranger. for example, the cut the Wilderness Survival trait down from 50% increase duration to 25%. I know it’s just a minor trait, but that little thing helps out a bunch! Try playing a ranger without it… You can see why most Rangers run it after they play without out for a bit.
If I had to address Anet about this upcoming nerf to the Rangers endurance regeneration, I would suggest instead of lowering the regeneration, just place it as a major trait.
What is your opinion on this, guys?

I don’t buy the reason for the nerf to begin with. How is 50% endurance regeneration (which doesn’t stack with vigor) for a class that is designed to have a lot of evades viewed as overpowered? Heck, guardians get a 5 point trait that gives 5 seconds of vigor on a critical hit (5 second cool-down) and that’s not being changed.

Screw our 50% passive regeneration, just give us the one guardian’s have since permanent vigor for 5 points apparently isn’t overpowered!

less protection uptime will be one of the main reasons for the nerf.

This Nerf downright horrifies me

I feel fairly squishy as is … I don’t really understand the point of this. Aren’t we supposed to be an evasive class? Like the fella above me said – I’d gladly swap for the guardian trait

They should just replace it with same trait as mes and guard ones – 5sec vigor on crit with 5 sec CD.

I agree they should give us some increased duration of vigor buffs to compensate. On the up side, it makes vigor more relevant to us since we wont have perma-half-vigor. Personally I never gave vigor in my builds much thought with that trait.

I feel like this may backfire by making ranger bring vigor which will increase the evades instead.

Bri.8354:

I don’t buy the reason for the nerf to begin with. How is 50% endurance regeneration (which doesn’t stack with vigor) for a class that is designed to have a lot of evades viewed as overpowered? Heck, guardians get a 5 point trait that gives 5 seconds of vigor on a critical hit (5 second cool-down) and that’s not being changed.

Screw our 50% passive regeneration, just give us the one guardian’s have since permanent vigor for 5 points apparently isn’t overpowered!

I don’t buy it either. It’s funny that you bring up guardians because they used engineers as an example of why it’s over powered…. yeah I’m still laughing.

It’s crazy that they’re nerfing that, compared to what other classes have as similar traits/utilities compared to the ranger and they nerf the ranger’s? warriors can have 2x endure pain, while we have to put 30 into a trait to make signet of stone have the same effect on a longer cool down? I just can’t understand the justification to the constant stream of nerfs to the ranger, the game’s balance is quickly becoming a joke : / The Dev team simply can’t be listening or playing a ranger in wvw/pve

Luxie.3617:

I just can’t understand the justification to the constant stream of nerfs to the ranger, the game’s balance is quickly becoming a joke : / The Dev team simply can’t be listening or playing a ranger in wvw/pve

According to the one dev talking to us in the other thread, we have “great builds” in every game mode. Not viable builds, not half-decent builds, great builds!

cafard.8953:

Luxie.3617:

I just can’t understand the justification to the constant stream of nerfs to the ranger, the game’s balance is quickly becoming a joke : / The Dev team simply can’t be listening or playing a ranger in wvw/pve

According to the one dev talking to us in the other thread, we have “great builds” in every game mode. Not viable builds, not half-decent builds, great builds!

That dev should post these “Great Builds” so we can all run them and see how great they are

I agree with some of the above posters. Instead of nerfing it just replace it with the guardian/mesmer version seeing as that’s not overpowered.

Really like some of the opinions you guys posted! Yes, I figured players would ask for vigor, yet like the above player said, he’s running a trap build so vigor traits/skills are out of reach. That 50% endurance regen could mean life or death to them.

Suppose now you have to try rather then randomly dodge. Go figure………

i’m really hoping this nerf doesn’t make my glassy ranger a dead man walking… my entire survival is from keeping a distance and dodging, and i have a very strong feeling this will gut the whole dodging thing… And if they’re gonna be removing evades how about they drop a few evades from thieves?

You know… on like all their damaging attacks? Lets see…… Larcenous Strike, Pistol Whip, Leaping Death Blossom, Heart Seeker off the top of my head… plus their insane amount of vigor and endurance gain from acrobatics…

Durzlla.6295:

i’m really hoping this nerf doesn’t make my glassy ranger a dead man walking… my entire survival is from keeping a distance and dodging, and i have a very strong feeling this will gut the whole dodging thing… And if they’re gonna be removing evades how about they drop a few evades from thieves?

You know… on like all their damaging attacks? Lets see…… Larcenous Strike, Pistol Whip, Leaping Death Blossom, Heart Seeker off the top of my head… plus their insane amount of vigor and endurance gain from acrobatics…

Dodges play such a vital role for non-melee rangers that this will without a doubt have a huge impact. You need them to not only evade strong attacks, but as a movement tool, used to gain some distance when a melee attacker gets within range.

I’ve been in so many close fights with thieves, warriors, and guardians where every dodge counted. That 50% regeneration plays a huge role in my survivability.

And what do they expect us to do to make up for it? We are already really stressed on traits and the ones that grant vigor are awful. Its like they expect everyone to get 30 points in wilderness survival with our best condition removal and damage reduction traits being there.

Mea.5491:

I’m a trapper, I can’t equip skills that give me vigor. So yeah, I’m gonna miss that 25%…

….What?

Assuming you are running a standard build (x/30/30/x/x) for trapping, you have access to 2 out of the three traits that give vigor:

-Primal Reflexes

-Vigorous Renewal

Not sure how you aren’t getting vigor.

We still have more than enough evade, I guess we all just need to fine tune when to use it rather than mindlessly spamming it.

And if your a full blown power build you should still take defensive traits or suffer the consequences.

As for the person complaining about not enough evades with a trap build, are you serious?????????????????????????

Also, its kind of pointless pointing out this nerf while not incorporating our other survivability buffs.

50% to 25% is a HUGE decrease. You won’t realise how big it is until its done.
Besides a lot of classes can keep their vigor buffs up often anyway so why nerf this trait? This trait is insanely useful especially if you are playing on the glassy ranger side.

Luxie.3617:

It’s crazy that they’re nerfing that, compared to what other classes have as similar traits/utilities compared to the ranger and they nerf the ranger’s? warriors can have 2x endure pain, while we have to put 30 into a trait to make signet of stone have the same effect on a longer cool down? I just can’t understand the justification to the constant stream of nerfs to the ranger, the game’s balance is quickly becoming a joke : / The Dev team simply can’t be listening or playing a ranger in wvw/pve

On the warrior side, u can also add perma 50% endurance regen, immunity to immo/Cripple/Chill, great health regen even without healing power and +25% run speed while having those 2 endure pain … Sometimes it feels like they don’t need to choose

Bri.8354:

Dodges play such a vital role for non-melee rangers that this will without a doubt have a huge impact.

The weird thing is that they seem to be trying to reduce the endurance regen on only the medium armor classes. The light armor classes are actually getting their endurance regen buffed. And the heavy armor classes’ endurance regen isn’t being touched at all (warrior signet of stamina = 50% regen, guardian 5 Honor trait = 100% regen for 5 sec after a crit).

It seems to me if you’re going to nerf endurance regen, the first classes you should you should nerf it on are the heavy armor classes. Then the medium armor classes. Yeah medium armor classes dodge a lot. That’s the whole point – you don’t wear heavy armor so you can’t just stand there and tank the hits, you dodge them instead. But this change seems to be making a weird game where the heavy armor classes can dodge more than the medium armor classes. Not only does that not make sense from a game mechanics standpoint, it doesn’t make sense from a reality standpoint. Dodging in heavy armor?

Solandri.9640:

Bri.8354:

Dodges play such a vital role for non-melee rangers that this will without a doubt have a huge impact.

The weird thing is that they seem to be trying to reduce the endurance regen on only the medium armor classes. The light armor classes are actually getting their endurance regen buffed. And the heavy armor classes’ endurance regen isn’t being touched at all (warrior signet of stamina = 50% regen, guardian 5 Honor trait = 100% regen for 5 sec after a crit).

It seems to me if you’re going to nerf endurance regen, the first classes you should you should nerf it on are the heavy armor classes. Then the medium armor classes. Yeah medium armor classes dodge a lot. That’s the whole point – you don’t wear heavy armor so you can’t just stand there and tank the hits, you dodge them instead. But this change seems to be making a weird game where the heavy armor classes can dodge more than the medium armor classes. Not only does that not make sense from a game mechanics standpoint, it doesn’t make sense from a reality standpoint. Dodging in heavy armor?

I mean sure, we do have a lot if evades, but as you said we can’t kittening take the hit we have to evade it!

Idk why they don’t just push the 50% regen back to 15pts or better yet just buff that kittenty engi grandmaster trait, I mean kitten, no one takes it cause you can get perma vigor so easily as an engi….

Durzlla.6295:

Solandri.9640:

Bri.8354:

Dodges play such a vital role for non-melee rangers that this will without a doubt have a huge impact.

The weird thing is that they seem to be trying to reduce the endurance regen on only the medium armor classes. The light armor classes are actually getting their endurance regen buffed. And the heavy armor classes’ endurance regen isn’t being touched at all (warrior signet of stamina = 50% regen, guardian 5 Honor trait = 100% regen for 5 sec after a crit).

It seems to me if you’re going to nerf endurance regen, the first classes you should you should nerf it on are the heavy armor classes. Then the medium armor classes. Yeah medium armor classes dodge a lot. That’s the whole point – you don’t wear heavy armor so you can’t just stand there and tank the hits, you dodge them instead. But this change seems to be making a weird game where the heavy armor classes can dodge more than the medium armor classes. Not only does that not make sense from a game mechanics standpoint, it doesn’t make sense from a reality standpoint. Dodging in heavy armor?

I mean sure, we do have a lot if evades, but as you said we can’t kittening take the hit we have to evade it!

Idk why they don’t just push the 50% regen back to 15pts or better yet just buff that kittenty engi grandmaster trait, I mean kitten, no one takes it cause you can get perma vigor so easily as an engi….

I have a feeling they just sit in the office and watch video’s of nothing but degen Rangers and Sword thieves and think “man, this is OP as kitten. That GS warrior can’t land his 100b at all!” and figured a nerf was in order.

By definition we should be the most agile and athletic class in the game. If they just wanted us to be “man with dog” then they should have named the class Beastmaster so we wouldn’t keep expecting things that promote active gameplay.

Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew if not in PvP. The reason: I’m going to be killed by conditions anyway, Signet of Stone helps against bursts, so why not let my dodges actually do something for me. The only problem is that it only lasts 30 minutes where some other foods last an hour.

Maybe they are doing this because they felt the endurance duration to was too good for sPvP. Considering that rangers have some big disadvantages in WvW itself, this nerf hurts the class even more.

Why balance around a game mode people simply don’t want to play?

Gufuu.6384:

50% to 25% is a HUGE decrease. You won’t realise how big it is until its done.
Besides a lot of classes can keep their vigor buffs up often anyway so why nerf this trait? This trait is insanely useful especially if you are playing on the glassy ranger side.

I feel that most people are a bit irrational about the incoming endurance nerfs which – something many seem to forget – will happen to any class. So they will have a harder time dodging, too. You will also find statements of dodging being a core defense of the respective class in every class forum.

Did anyone actually do the math on this change?
I hope I didn’t make any mistake.

Base endurance regeneration
5% per second = 20s per full endurance bar.
This equals 6 dodges per minute.

With permanent Vigor (100% increase)
10% per second = 10s per full endurance bar.
This equals 12 dodges per minute.

With 50% increase
7.5% per second = 13.3333…s per full endurance bar.
This equals 9 dodges per minute.

With 25% increase
6.25% per second = 16s per full endurance bar.
This equals 7.5 dodges per minute.

With Vigorous Renewal and Heal as One
25% uptime resulting in 25% increased regeneration if constantly using the heal.
6.25% per second = 16s per full endurance bar.
This equals 7.5 dodges per minute.

With Vigorous Renwal and Heals and One plus 20% boon duration
6s every 20s equals 30% uptime resulting in 30% increased regeneration if …
6.75% per second = 14.81s per full endurance bar.
This equals 8 dodges per minute.

Besides not losing that many dodges as you might think considering the massive amount of hysteria, I personally take two things from this. First, a ranger who currently uses the 50% endurance regeneration and gets along with it relies on dodges a lot less than someone having 100% Vigor uptime (e.g. many Engineers, Elementalists, Mesmers and Guardians). Second, Vigorous Renewal is still inferior to Natural Vigor in many settings although it requires active gameplay. So from a perspective of trait balance this actually makes sense if the broader goal is to have less Vigor and endurance regeneration overall.

BTW. I would have favoured deleting the Sigil of Energy over the incomming endurance and Vigor changes since it equals a permanent Vigor when constantly swapping weapons which might be a much bigger abuse of dodging than anything else.

Xaylin.1860:

Did anyone actually do the math on this change?

Yes I did the math. That’s why I posted what I did.

Base endurance regeneration
5% per second = 20s per full endurance bar.
This equals 6 dodges per minute.

With permanent Vigor (100% increase)
10% per second = 10s per full endurance bar.
This equals 12 dodges per minute.

With 50% increase
7.5% per second = 13.3333…s per full endurance bar.
This equals 9 dodges per minute.

With 25% increase
6.25% per second = 16s per full endurance bar.
This equals 7.5 dodges per minute.

With Vigorous Renewal and Heal as One
25% uptime resulting in 25% increased regeneration if constantly using the heal.
6.25% per second = 16s per full endurance bar.
This equals 7.5 dodges per minute.

Yup. ((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 15)) / 20 = .0625 per sec.

But if you have Vigorous Renewal, you also get the 5 point trait Natural Vigor for free:
((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 1.25 * 15)) / 20 = .071875 per sec
or 13.9 sec to fill endurance
or 8.625 dodges per minute

Now look at warrior with Signet of Stamina. 50% constant endurance regen.
.05 * 1.5 = .075 per sec
13.3 sec to fill endurance
9 dodges per minute

Now look at Guardian with 5 Honor trait. Say they average 1 crit every 3 seconds. So 5 sec of vigor followed by 3 sec with no vigor
((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 3)) / 8 = .08125 per sec
12.3 sec to fill endurance
9.75 dodges per minute

Do you see the problem here?

Heavy armor class with 5 point trait = 9.75 dodges per minute
Medium armor class with 5 point trait = 7.5 dodges per minute

Heavy armor class with utility skill = 9 dodges per minute
Medium armor class with 10 point trait and specific heal skill that gives up the class’ best condition removal = 8.6 dodges per minute

How does giving the heavy armor classes more dodges than a medium armor class make any sense?

Solandri.9640:

Yes I did the math. That’s why I posted what I did.

But if you have Vigorous Renewal, you also get the 5 point trait Natural Vigor for free:
((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 1.25 * 15)) / 20 = .071875 per sec
or 13.9 sec to fill endurance
or 8.625 dodges per minute

Okay… I missed that one.

Solandri.9640:

Now look at warrior with Signet of Stamina. 50% constant endurance regen.
.05 * 1.5 = .075 per sec
13.3 sec to fill endurance
9 dodges per minute

Now look at Guardian with 5 Honor trait. Say they average 1 crit every 3 seconds. So 5 sec of vigor followed by 3 sec with no vigor
((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 3)) / 8 = .08125 per sec
12.3 sec to fill endurance
9.75 dodges per minute

Do you see the problem here?

The problem is that you are looking at other classes for evaluating the changes announced for the Ranger. Classes are different and there will always be differences. My point was that the change actually does not make such a big difference for the Ranger himself. At least I would expect something more significant when considering all the hate which the preview caused.

Solandri.9640:

Heavy armor class with 5 point trait = 9.75 dodges per minute
Medium armor class with 5 point trait = 7.5 dodges per minute

Heavy armor class with utility skill = 9 dodges per minute
Medium armor class with 10 point trait and specific heal skill that gives up the class’ best condition removal = 8.6 dodges per minute

How does giving the heavy armor classes more dodges than a medium armor class make any sense?

First of all, you are comparing nerfed skills/traits with unnerfed ones. ANet already said that they are looking into Mesmer and Guardian traits but did not decide on how to procceed yet. Therefore, you can also expect adjustments to the Warrior although they might wait to see how the Hammer nerfs play out.

Second, there is absolutely no point of listing the armor class in reference to dodging. Armor is probably the least important factor when it comes to damage mitigation. Even if you consider the health pool in which case the Guardian could demand more endurance than the Ranger. Guardians and Warriors might also point at the evades Rangers have. This way of argumentation is a very bad place to go. Fact is, the changes to the endurance regenerations for Rangers actually aren’t that bad. Fact also is, that there will be nerfs for all classes even if not announced yet.

Terkov.4138:

They should just replace it with same trait as mes and guard ones – 5sec vigor on crit with 5 sec CD.

They should not. Not everyone runs high precision builds.

The trait is fine and should be left alone. I don’t know where they get this “too much evasion” bullkitten. The only evasion heavy builds are s/d, nerf them if you must.

Xaylin.1860:

Solandri.9640:

Yes I did the math. That’s why I posted what I did.

But if you have Vigorous Renewal, you also get the 5 point trait Natural Vigor for free:
((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 1.25 * 15)) / 20 = .071875 per sec
or 13.9 sec to fill endurance
or 8.625 dodges per minute

Okay… I missed that one.

Solandri.9640:

Now look at warrior with Signet of Stamina. 50% constant endurance regen.
.05 * 1.5 = .075 per sec
13.3 sec to fill endurance
9 dodges per minute

Now look at Guardian with 5 Honor trait. Say they average 1 crit every 3 seconds. So 5 sec of vigor followed by 3 sec with no vigor
((.1 * 5) + (.05 * 3)) / 8 = .08125 per sec
12.3 sec to fill endurance
9.75 dodges per minute

Do you see the problem here?

The problem is that you are looking at other classes for evaluating the changes announced for the Ranger. Classes are different and there will always be differences. My point was that the change actually does not make such a big difference for the Ranger himself. At least I would expect something more significant when considering all the hate which the preview caused.

Solandri.9640:

Heavy armor class with 5 point trait = 9.75 dodges per minute
Medium armor class with 5 point trait = 7.5 dodges per minute

Heavy armor class with utility skill = 9 dodges per minute
Medium armor class with 10 point trait and specific heal skill that gives up the class’ best condition removal = 8.6 dodges per minute

How does giving the heavy armor classes more dodges than a medium armor class make any sense?

First of all, you are comparing nerfed skills/traits with unnerfed ones. ANet already said that they are looking into Mesmer and Guardian traits but did not decide on how to procceed yet. Therefore, you can also expect adjustments to the Warrior although they might wait to see how the Hammer nerfs play out.

Second, there is absolutely no point of listing the armor class in reference to dodging. Armor is probably the least important factor when it comes to damage mitigation. Even if you consider the health pool in which case the Guardian could demand more endurance than the Ranger. Guardians and Warriors might also point at the evades Rangers have. This way of argumentation is a very bad place to go. Fact is, the changes to the endurance regenerations for Rangers actually aren’t that bad. Fact also is, that there will be nerfs for all classes even if not announced yet.

Guardians and warriors have access to incredibly powerful burst damage and can use combat tactics that rely on killing the enemy before they get killed vs the ranger that has to rely on outlasting the opponent because we have “sustained damage”.

They shouldn’t be able to dodge more because they simply don’t need to.

And you are absolutely right, they haven’t said whether they will do anything to the other classes. They have, however, explicitly said they plan on nerfing the ranger’s ability to regen stamina with no plans to adjust comparative skills on other classes. That is what we have to go on so that’s what’s worth discussing right now and it’s silly to dismiss it because you have a hunch that it’s all pointless.

Durzlla.6295:

i’m really hoping this nerf doesn’t make my glassy ranger a dead man walking… my entire survival is from keeping a distance and dodging, and i have a very strong feeling this will gut the whole dodging thing… And if they’re gonna be removing evades how about they drop a few evades from thieves?

This.

Also dodge role is one of the few active defensive abilities which shows some player’s skill. Instead of forcing ppl to show a little bit of skill they nerf endurance regen and buff bark skin, passive defensive ability. So yeah, lets everybody make condition bunker ranger to just stay still and spam conditions.

Wonder where they came to those ppl who making the “balance”.

Miyu.8137:

Durzlla.6295:

i’m really hoping this nerf doesn’t make my glassy ranger a dead man walking… my entire survival is from keeping a distance and dodging, and i have a very strong feeling this will gut the whole dodging thing… And if they’re gonna be removing evades how about they drop a few evades from thieves?

This.

Also dodge role is one of the few active defensive abilities which shows some player’s skill. Instead of forcing ppl to show a little bit of skill they nerf endurance regen and buff bark skin, passive defensive ability. So yeah, lets everybody make condition bunker ranger to just stay still and spam conditions.

Wonder where they came to those ppl who making the “balance”.

It’s also the reason our melee is plagued with skills meant to avoid damage rather than deal it since we’re expected to let degen do all the work for us.

Substance E.4852:

Guardians and warriors have access to incredibly powerful burst damage and can use combat tactics that rely on killing the enemy before they get killed vs the ranger that has to rely on outlasting the opponent because we have “sustained damage”.

They shouldn’t be able to dodge more because they simply don’t need to.

I’d really like to see where the Guardian gets his powerful burst from. If any class is about sustained damage, then it is the Guardian. ANet even stated that they are unsatisfied with their damage output.

This is a bit different when talking about the Warrior. I’m inclined to agree on this one. However, the biggest issue with Warriors right now is the fact that they get CC, damage and sustain with low cost. And that is something ANet is going to change that. Did you even see the massive nerf to the Hammer? They also lowered the Adrenaline regeneration from LB which will result in less Burst-Stuns. And no, I do not play a Warrior. So I really do not have a need to defend them.

Substance E.4852:

And you are absolutely right, they haven’t said whether they will do anything to the other classes. They have, however, explicitly said they plan on nerfing the ranger’s ability to regen stamina with no plans to adjust comparative skills on other classes. That is what we have to go on so that’s what’s worth discussing right now and it’s silly to dismiss it because you have a hunch that it’s all pointless.

Yes. They have. They literally said that they are currently looking into Mesmers and Guardians. Check the Dev Tracker. They didn’t mention Warriors because all people were too busy complaining about Mesmers and Guardians and forgot the Warriors.

Wanting to nerf other classes just because your main just got nerfed (wait… got a nerf announced…) is always pointless. It’s not because of some hunch I’m having. Usually people are overreacting after patch notes are released. Especially when they can’t even test them.

Calling for nerfs on other classes does not help making your own class enjoyable to play. It is more important to discuss the effect on the nerfed class itself. This is an announcement and the Devs offered you the opportunity to take part in the upcomming changes. Discuss how the change affects your class. With facts. Not “This will kill my class. I’m more entitled to this because I say so.” Discuss alternatives. State why the alternatives are better. This will make them consider altering their plans. Calling for nerfs on other classes is an “eye for an eye” thing which won’t make this game better for anyone.

Substance E.4852:

Guardians and warriors have access to incredibly powerful burst damage and can use combat tactics that rely on killing the enemy before they get killed vs the ranger that has to rely on outlasting the opponent because we have “sustained damage”..

LoL

Every class has “sustained damage”!! It’s called auto attack!

Makes me laugh every time I see somebody say this.

The thief class is being “de-vigored” also.
A nerf in a game is not a big deal.
The rationale by the devs for a nerf-when it makes no sense-
is a big deal.
The game designers make the NPCs smarter and hit harder while
taking away the tools that players use to survive.

thefantasticg.3984:

Substance E.4852:

Guardians and warriors have access to incredibly powerful burst damage and can use combat tactics that rely on killing the enemy before they get killed vs the ranger that has to rely on outlasting the opponent because we have “sustained damage”..

LoL

Every class has “sustained damage”!! It’s called auto attack!

Makes me laugh every time I see somebody say this.

Pretty much. People loved Rob for coming here and talking shop with us but the second I saw him drop that gem on us I pretty much stopped paying attention to anything he had to say.

Brett.4305:

The thief class is being “de-vigored” also.
A nerf in a game is not a big deal.
The rationale by the devs for a nerf-when it makes no sense-
is a big deal.
The game designers make the NPCs smarter and hit harder while
taking away the tools that players use to survive.

Thief is losing some mobility but gaining a massive increase in initiative regen rate.
I don’t feel the sword nerf will be that vbad but I can see their frustration when Anet’s treating thief sword like the ranger shortbow.

LOL.

I come back and this is what Anet is doing now…….

going back to leveling my other profs……..

I wonder how I am going to evade all the AOE’s Subject Alpha does on COE with a nerf like this….

Aden Celeste.3650:

I wonder how I am going to evade all the AOE’s Subject Alpha does on COE with a nerf like this….

By learing when u have to dogde. I never used this trait in PvE, so don´t cry it´s still your fault if u waste dogderolls.

Aden Celeste.3650:

I wonder how I am going to evade all the AOE’s Subject Alpha does on COE with a nerf like this….

I don’t even dodge them, i just leisurely circle him going pew pew pew pew.

Xaylin.1860:

Substance E.4852:

Guardians and warriors have access to incredibly powerful burst damage and can use combat tactics that rely on killing the enemy before they get killed vs the ranger that has to rely on outlasting the opponent because we have “sustained damage”.

They shouldn’t be able to dodge more because they simply don’t need to.

I’d really like to see where the Guardian gets his powerful burst from. If any class is about sustained damage, then it is the Guardian. ANet even stated that they are unsatisfied with their damage output.

Forgive him. Guardian just feels bursty compared to ranger because ranger burst is focused on the pet. With my guardian I just hit a button to generate a 12 stack of might, then switch to a main weapon to burst. Nothing ranger can do can come close to that unless you take a GM trait and load up on signets.

While I agree with you that guardian isn’t bursty, I still don’t see why they need more dodge ability than rangers. They’re the tankiest class in the game.

Xaylin.1860:

Second, there is absolutely no point of listing the armor class in reference to dodging. Armor is probably the least important factor when it comes to damage mitigation. Even if you consider the health pool in which case the Guardian could demand more endurance than the Ranger.

Ok, now you’re just being facetious. Yes there’s as much variability with hp pool as with armor, but at best you can argue that guardian (low hp, high armor) and ranger (med hp, med armor) are equals, and thus should have similar dodge ability.

Substance E.4852:

And you are absolutely right, they haven’t said whether they will do anything to the other classes. They have, however, explicitly said they plan on nerfing the ranger’s ability to regen stamina with no plans to adjust comparative skills on other classes. That is what we have to go on so that’s what’s worth discussing right now and it’s silly to dismiss it because you have a hunch that it’s all pointless.

Yeah, I searched the dev posts before posting what I did. “Looking at” something is a step removed from “we’ve concluded we want to change this.”

Wanting to nerf other classes just because your main just got nerfed (wait… got a nerf announced…) is always pointless. It’s not because of some hunch I’m having. Usually people are overreacting after patch notes are released. Especially when they can’t even test them.

Who said anything about nerfing other classes? All I’m asking for is a straight trendline in dodge capability, with light armor getting the most, medium armor getting a moderate amount, and heavy armor getting the least (for the purpose of suspension of disbelief – it makes no sense to give heavy armor classes damage mitigation through dodges).

Whether they choose to do this by nerfing heavy armor or scaling back planned nerfs to medium armor, I don’t care. But the trendline needs to be straight.

Calling for nerfs on other classes does not help making your own class enjoyable to play. It is more important to discuss the effect on the nerfed class itself. This is an announcement and the Devs offered you the opportunity to take part in the upcomming changes. Discuss how the change affects your class. With facts. Not “This will kill my class. I’m more entitled to this because I say so.” Discuss alternatives. State why the alternatives are better. This will make them consider altering their plans. Calling for nerfs on other classes is an “eye for an eye” thing which won’t make this game better for anyone.

You’re missing the forest for the trees. I’ve been GMing RPGs since the 1970s, playing computer RPGs since the 1980s, and even helped develop/debug an online MMORPG. Everything I evaluate about a game is done in the context of overall game balance. In your zeal to paint me as someone who only cares about ranger, you’ve misinterpreted what I’ve said only in the context of ranger.

The argument I’ve presented is about overall game balance. Some classes can’t tank hits so you give them the ability to dodge those hits. Some classes can tank hits so don’t need the ability to dodge. If you give less dodge to a class which can’t tank as many hits, you’ve fundamentally broken your game balance. The labels you give those classes are irrelevant.

Solandri.9640:

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It is a bit weird quoting me as if I responded to your post even though it was adressing someone elses post. You didn’t ask for a nerf other classes but I also didn’t quote your post when talking about it.

That aside, I am not questioning anyones analytical capabilities. However, when saying – or at least suggesting – that Rangers should be able to dodge more than Warriors or Guardians because of the armor class then it is just wrong. I pointed out the flaw in this argumentation by referring to the health pool and other defensive mechanisms. I never said that the Guardian should be able to dodge more per se.

Due to your experience I am sure you aware that the armor class is by no means the whole context in which Vigor or endurance regeneration should be considered because there are many different aspects and skills which play into the defensive capabilities of classes.

I’m might be very honest and direct about my opinion but I’m certainly not in zeal just because I’m disagreeing. If you feel so I’m sorry. But just because you’re “more experienced” than I am doesn’t make your opinion right. Mentioning it this way actually is quite condescending. Armor just isn’t the trendline for dodging in GW2. And that is all you were talking about in your post.

Solandri.9640:

Yeah, I searched the dev posts before posting what I did. “Looking at” something is a step removed from “we’ve concluded we want to change this.”

This is the post I’m referring to.

Tyler Chapman

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

To put it into your words: They concluded they want to change it.

Bottom line is: ANet wants less dodges on all classes. If – and that is what they intend to do – they reduce the endurance regeneration of all classes – the overall balance between classes won’t change. That is why I do not get all this commotion.

This nerf isn’t directed towards us. Guardians, Mesmer, Engineers, Rangers, and Ele’s are all getting their access to vigor reduced. I don’t know why you guys should think we’re more special than the others.

Xaylin.1860:

That aside, I am not questioning anyones analytical capabilities. However, when saying – or at least suggesting – that Rangers should be able to dodge more than Warriors or Guardians because of the armor class then it is just wrong. I pointed out the flaw in this argumentation by referring to the health pool and other defensive mechanisms. I never said that the Guardian should be able to dodge more per se.

If that’s your stance, then I doubt we’ll ever agree on this.

I will reiterate that fundamentally, the whole point of an RPG is to simulate reality (or in the case of magic, some set of rules meant to represent a fantasy reality). In that respect, heavy armor classes dodging more than medium armor classes makes no sense. If a heavy armor class has insufficient damage mitigation due to game design choices about the effectiveness of armor or hp allocation, then it needs to be given to them via some other means than “dodging”.

In RPGs whose game mechanics attempt a more sophisticated representation of reality, “heavy” and “medium” armor classes aren’t even arbitrary distinctions like they are in GW2. Medium (leather) armor is given a certain weight, heavy (plate) armor is given a (substantially) greater weight. Your dodging ability is based on how much weight you’re carrying (and your strength). Thus arriving at the natural and realistic outcome that heavy armor classes cannot dodge as much/as well as medium armor classes.

Just because you can violate this simulated realism by changing a few numbers in the code, that doesn’t mean you should. They could have increased ranger longbow’s DPS by making the arrows explode into miniature kittens which clawed the target to do an additional 25% damage. But that would’ve been silly and unrealistic. Simply decreasing the channel time from 1.25 sec to 1 sec accomplished the same thing in a more realistic and believable manner. The same goes for dodging. If a heavy armor class needs more damage mitigation to maintain game balance, you don’t do it by giving them more dodge capability than a medium armor class. That’s silly and unrealistic.

Axyl.9408:

This nerf isn’t directed towards us. Guardians, Mesmer, Engineers, Rangers, and Ele’s are all getting their access to vigor reduced. I don’t know why you guys should think we’re more special than the others.

While GW2-for-Dummies aren’t. No, we’re not more special than the classes you mentioned. Just a little more borked. This will hurt us a little more, and therefore the QQ.

@Solandri: In this game I don’t think the effective difference between light, medium and heavy armour warrants a great difference in effective endurance. At most a light armour wearer should have 10% more endurance (or less endurance use per dodge) than heavy and 5% more than medium.

I am extremely irked about this possible nerf. I’m squishy enough as is with the 50% endurance regen. and one of my main tactics for survival is dodging (I mainly WvW). What the heck is the point of this? Even after much thought and consideration I fail to see the good this nerf will do. Yay for another nerf to our already under-powered class!