Guild Wars 2

I think the current version of the entangle effect is way too weak. Problem is a lot of classes (and more with HoT launch) have traits that reduce immob duration (or any form of general condi reduction). It flat-out does nothing against such builds, they simply walk out of it – the 1s immob is reduced to 3/4 or 2/3 and the 2nd never ticks then. Not to mention that any teleport renders it useless and in lot of cases a simple condi clear is enough to move out of the roots and good cleave will destroy them quickly.

Even now i mostly just get condi clear and fury out of entangle, exception being necros who do end up stuck in it often (slow and counterable condi cleanse, slow to kill the root unless on dagger, no teleports), but reapers get -33% trait so those days are gone.

Builds that ignore entangle – almost all wars, every chronomancer (basicly every mesmer), thieves, reapers, engis taking inventions, all might stackers running holbreak runes, druids with stride. That leaves only guards who have instant clears and are already strong vs entangle, revenant (havent played them yet so not sure about them), eles (kittens condi clears, AOE dmg and has teleport) and non-druid rangers (already good vs. entantgle).

Entangle is an elite skill, Ancient seed is a GM trait (and the only offensive one). But like 80% of the time it will do absolutely nothing (ok it will do a single bleed stack), 10% you get 2 ticks of it and 10% you get 2+ ticks.

Change it to something like 2×2s of immob and 2 bleed stacks, or up the duration to 1 1/2s, so that it actually works as intended – you have to kill the roots, use condi cleanse which the ranger at least has a chance of counter-playing or a teleport.
Or get rid of the roots mechanic just make it flat Xs immob X stack of bleeds. Or work in a trait for ranger that extends immob by 25%.

Something needs to be done, i see lots of people excited about Ancient seeds, but it works only in theory. in practice you wont get anything out of that trait.

I made a similar comment to a friend the other day. I’ll still be taking Ancient Seeds — you lose way too much value by not doing so…
I still get entangle off here n there where the opponent cant do anything and its usually a won fight, but 80% of the time its pretty much just as you say — condi cleanse / fury. Stopped em for a whole half a second.

Ancient seeds is probably fine as is — 10 seconds is relatively low compared to a lot of our CD traits and the effect is a lot better in my opinion — and it should be incredibly easy to apply regardless of weapon sets.

In regards to entangle though, I think making it a pulsing, unremovable debuff (like certain class effects you cant strip — like rampage) would be reasonable — Something like dividing the immobilization/bleeds between 5 separate rooting pulses, and making the roots significantly easier to kill. Something like 1-2 hits to kill the root, with new roots being applied each pulse. I’m not arguing for these exact numbers but I think the idea of an entangle change along these lines would make it much more reasonable.

Essentially, it is like what they did to strength of the pack on the ranger, except applying that functionality to the debuff on the opponent afflicted by entangle.

I find with this dilemma timing is everything. I know there is quite a few classes that entangle is useless on such as eles, thieves engis and warriors, however with classes like necro, guardians, rangers and mesmers i find entangle to be really strong but i guess that is subject to change come expansion. Making it stronger could be a good idea however im not really sure how they could do it

As a note entangle is very strong against the majority of revenants since they lack the cleanse to get if off quickly. Though condi revenants and their resistance won’t be too effected.

Honestly it’s a strong trait but it does depend on when it procs. You caught someone with no cleanse or ability to escape and they’re usually done for with entangle.

From a wvw perspective I’m going to use the trait and swap my food to +40% condi duration 33% (bugged so 66%) chance of life steal on crit. Should help combat some issues and will still benefit my zerker ranger well.

dannyteo.5864:

I find with this dilemma timing is everything. I know there is quite a few classes that entangle is useless on such as eles, thieves engis and warriors, however with classes like necro, guardians, rangers and mesmers i find entangle to be really strong but i guess that is subject to change come expansion. Making it stronger could be a good idea however im not really sure how they could do it

yeah but the point is with HoT, 3 of the classes you say are affected are getting basicly immunity from the roots – mesmers (minor trait), necros (strong adept, will often get picked), druids will often run natural stride, that only leaves guard and his condi clears are instant (shout, medi,virtue) which makes it much easier to clear and walk out.

So you are in a situation where your elite and only offensive GM are almost useless against 6-7 classes and average against 1. not sure about rev and engis will often be dropping inventions for scrapper so it could be a bit better against them.

Increase the base immob by 25% – counter the generic reduction that every class has nowadays, while specialized forms (like reaper in shroud or dogged march) still work – thats sort of reapers theme in RS, wouldnt mess with that. THe whole roots concept was made and balanced without so many reductions in play (most of those traits have been introduced later afaik). There are plenty active ways to counter the roots, they should not be countered passivley by almost any spec.

www is still the same, your +40% on food is countered by -40% on food and the 10% from utility is not enough to offset -25%.

P.S. forgot melandru runes, another 100% counter.

It’ll be strong against some classes and some builds and worthless to others.

For example it’ll be as good as worthless against an Engineer with Juggernaut because of the near-infinite stability.

I think it’s something you should treat more like a sigil or rune. The effect may or may not happen. But it can be deadly when it does happen.

It’s not reliable because of the requirements for it to trigger. CCing something isn’t enough, you also have to hit them for a second time while they are still under the effect of the CC. That’s a pretty rare event.

If it was more reliable and easier to land, it would need a longer cooldown… which I might be ok with, because that would essentially make it stronger.

Holland.9351:

It’ll be strong against some classes and some builds and worthless to others.

For example it’ll be as good as worthless against an Engineer with Juggernaut because of the near-infinite stability.

I think it’s something you should treat more like a sigil or rune. The effect may or may not happen. But it can be deadly when it does happen.

It’s not reliable because of the requirements for it to trigger. CCing something isn’t enough, you also have to hit them for a second time while they are still under the effect of the CC. That’s a pretty rare event.

If it was more reliable and easier to land, it would need a longer cooldown… which I might be ok with, because that would essentially make it stronger.

Stability does not stop immobilization. It only works against knockdown, pushes, pulls, launches, stuns, dazes, floats, sunks, fears and taunts.

Kitty.1502:

Holland.9351:

It’ll be strong against some classes and some builds and worthless to others.

For example it’ll be as good as worthless against an Engineer with Juggernaut because of the near-infinite stability.

I think it’s something you should treat more like a sigil or rune. The effect may or may not happen. But it can be deadly when it does happen.

It’s not reliable because of the requirements for it to trigger. CCing something isn’t enough, you also have to hit them for a second time while they are still under the effect of the CC. That’s a pretty rare event.

If it was more reliable and easier to land, it would need a longer cooldown… which I might be ok with, because that would essentially make it stronger.

Stability does not stop immobilization. It only works against knockdown, pushes, pulls, launches, stuns, dazes, floats, sunks, fears and taunts.

he probably means the trait Ancient Seeds not the roots themselves. The trait trigger is ok imo (even FT engi will get CCed), the effect is not because too many traits/runes completely negate it and the negation is passive (it requires no activation or any action except for pressing any of the 4 movement keys).

Kitty.1502:

Holland.9351:

It’ll be strong against some classes and some builds and worthless to others.

For example it’ll be as good as worthless against an Engineer with Juggernaut because of the near-infinite stability.

I think it’s something you should treat more like a sigil or rune. The effect may or may not happen. But it can be deadly when it does happen.

It’s not reliable because of the requirements for it to trigger. CCing something isn’t enough, you also have to hit them for a second time while they are still under the effect of the CC. That’s a pretty rare event.

If it was more reliable and easier to land, it would need a longer cooldown… which I might be ok with, because that would essentially make it stronger.

Stability does not stop immobilization. It only works against knockdown, pushes, pulls, launches, stuns, dazes, floats, sunks, fears and taunts.

Stability stops CC and therefore the trait can’t trigger and therefore it prevents immobilize. So stability is definitely a counter to Ancient Seeds, in fact, stability is probably its worst enemy.

Stilgar.6437:

dannyteo.5864:

I find with this dilemma timing is everything. I know there is quite a few classes that entangle is useless on such as eles, thieves engis and warriors, however with classes like necro, guardians, rangers and mesmers i find entangle to be really strong but i guess that is subject to change come expansion. Making it stronger could be a good idea however im not really sure how they could do it

yeah but the point is with HoT, 3 of the classes you say are affected are getting basicly immunity from the roots – mesmers (minor trait), necros (strong adept, will often get picked), druids will often run natural stride, that only leaves guard and his condi clears are instant (shout, medi,virtue) which makes it much easier to clear and walk out.

So you are in a situation where your elite and only offensive GM are almost useless against 6-7 classes and average against 1. not sure about rev and engis will often be dropping inventions for scrapper so it could be a bit better against them.

Increase the base immob by 25% – counter the generic reduction that every class has nowadays, while specialized forms (like reaper in shroud or dogged march) still work – thats sort of reapers theme in RS, wouldnt mess with that. THe whole roots concept was made and balanced without so many reductions in play (most of those traits have been introduced later afaik). There are plenty active ways to counter the roots, they should not be countered passivley by almost any spec.

www is still the same, your +40% on food is countered by -40% on food and the 10% from utility is not enough to offset -25%.

P.S. forgot melandru runes, another 100% counter.

Yea i completely agree with you, thats why i said that it was subject to change come expansion.
I dont know to be honest I just dont see any near improvements being made to entangle which is why I am hoping that shouts become a little more viable because sotp is a really good elite imo.

Knowing anet we will have to plant the seed then shoot it with solar bean for 30s to activate

Holland.9351:

Kitty.1502:

Holland.9351:

It’ll be strong against some classes and some builds and worthless to others.

For example it’ll be as good as worthless against an Engineer with Juggernaut because of the near-infinite stability.

I think it’s something you should treat more like a sigil or rune. The effect may or may not happen. But it can be deadly when it does happen.

It’s not reliable because of the requirements for it to trigger. CCing something isn’t enough, you also have to hit them for a second time while they are still under the effect of the CC. That’s a pretty rare event.

If it was more reliable and easier to land, it would need a longer cooldown… which I might be ok with, because that would essentially make it stronger.

Stability does not stop immobilization. It only works against knockdown, pushes, pulls, launches, stuns, dazes, floats, sunks, fears and taunts.

Stability stops CC and therefore the trait can’t trigger and therefore it prevents immobilize. So stability is definitely a counter to Ancient Seeds, in fact, stability is probably its worst enemy.

its not. condi reduction is. You will get far more out of AS against FT engi (you can chain your CC to break stability, its 1 stack every 3s and the engi doesnt camp FT all the time), then against shatter mesmer, reaper, zerk war, might stacking hoelbrek classes, melandru bunkers, druids etc. On other classes for the most part stability has low uptime and is not that big of a counter. There is no counterplay to 25% immob reduction, nothing you do helps and the trait/elite is borderline useless (1 stack of bleed and 3/4sec or less immobilize).

Stilgar.6437:

…Builds that ignore entangle – almost all wars, every chronomancer (basicly every mesmer), thieves, reapers, engis taking inventions, all might stackers running holbreak runes, druids with stride. That leaves only guards who have instant clears and are already strong vs entangle, revenant (havent played them yet so not sure about them), eles (kittens condi clears, AOE dmg and has teleport) and non-druid rangers (already good vs. entantgle)…

This paragraph is just absurd. Have you even looked at the mechanics of what needs to be used to do what you suggest? It is a lot of investment. You are looking at your runes, one or more traits and your food for WvW, so its 40% less effective in PvP.

These things are called counters.

A lot of what you say here is simply not true.

doesn’t ancient seed rootlet act like the entangle one? i.e. the longer u sit in it, the more immob gets stacked. I think it was working fine for me in BWE3, unless they nerfed it. entangle and AS totally kittens up profs that don’t have on-demand pbaoe, high power damage, or multiple condi cleanses. the root has at least 3k HP. at least.

p.s. most people don’t use hoelbrak or melandru…that was wvw meta like 2 years ago.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

This paragraph is just absurd. Have you even looked at the mechanics of what needs to be used to do what you suggest? It is a lot of investment. You are looking at your runes, one or more traits and your food for WvW, so its 40% less effective in PvP.

These things are called counters.

A lot of what you say here is simply not true.

His statement isn’t absurd. Hoelbrak runes and traits, which reduce duration soft cc, are not as rare as you might think. And will be even more common with HoT. It is a strong combination, worth the investment for many players.

(Hoelbrak is currently overshadowed by vampirism rune, which can counter the root too btw, but was the most used rune in pvp before and will probably become it again after the vamp nerf)

mistsim.2748:

doesn’t ancient seed rootlet act like the entangle one? i.e. the longer u sit in it, the more immob gets stacked. I think it was working fine for me in BWE3, unless they nerfed it. entangle and AS totally kittens up profs that don’t have on-demand pbaoe, high power damage, or multiple condi cleanses. the root has at least 3k HP. at least.

p.s. most people don’t use hoelbrak or melandru…that was wvw meta like 2 years ago.

It seems to work like entangle. Haven’t tested it much though, because it was very unreliable with dazes.
The problem with entangle (and most likely AS) is, that the first pulse applies only 1 sec of immob, so with (enough) condi duration reduction they can walk out of the vines before the second pulse appears. Condi remove (including traits/skills which only remove immob), stealth, teleports, invuln all counters the root too. It is usually not necessary to kill the vines.

And as far as i know, hoelbrak is still common in WvW and will probably be used often in PvP too after vamp nerf.

but ive always been ok with entangle only punishing those with no cd’s/cleanses. it also forces them to use up those CD’s getting out. that’s kind of the purpose of entangle and AS.

just some food for thought with AS…it can be AOE, and it works on cc’d players in general, you don’t have to be the source of the CC. it’s a trait well worthy of GM status.

Entangle can be very strong against opponents without CD, yes. But some classes/builds (mainly warrior and thieves) have so many ways to counter it, that it is basically impossible to catch them with entangle. And maybe it will be worse with HoT, too early to tell though …

Currently i would consider entangle as fairly balanced: situational, but potentially very strong. Synergie with WK. The low cd evens out the amount of counters. At least for now …

Edit: AS not working well with dazes, because ppl can walk away before the first vine spawns, is imo the main problem of this trait. Or at least was the main problem for me at BWE3.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Stilgar.6437:

…Builds that ignore entangle – almost all wars, every chronomancer (basicly every mesmer), thieves, reapers, engis taking inventions, all might stackers running holbreak runes, druids with stride. That leaves only guards who have instant clears and are already strong vs entangle, revenant (havent played them yet so not sure about them), eles (kittens condi clears, AOE dmg and has teleport) and non-druid rangers (already good vs. entantgle)…

This paragraph is just absurd. Have you even looked at the mechanics of what needs to be used to do what you suggest? It is a lot of investment. You are looking at your runes, one or more traits and your food for WvW, so its 40% less effective in PvP.

These things are called counters.

A lot of what you say here is simply not true.

What is incorrect there? You dont seem to understand my point. Entangle works by pulsing 1s immob every 1s, if you have anything that reduces the immob duration you are only affected by the first pulse and ignore the roots, you just walk out as if nothing was there. And as Umbra pointed out – all those traits are often part of the meta build and so are hoelbreak/melandru runes (pre and post vampirism dominance). In practice those roots end up doing nothing in most cases – without the opponents actively countering it, it requires no action or specific investment on their part (you dont take movment enhancing traits for countering entangle, you take them cause they are awesome all-around traits or minors in awesome traitlines like chrono).

Those roots are outdated, im mearly asking for entangle to have its intended effect in the new meta. Im ok with entangle/as being countered by cleanses or evade/invul CDs but not by being inherently 100% countered passivley by majority of classes and multiple common runes/food.

Against a class/build without a way to get rid of immobilize or prevent CC, Ancient Seeds is very deadly. For any other situation it’ll be anywhere between average and worthless.

It’ll mostly shine in WvW roaming I think. For picking off people who are not prepared.

good solution would be to up the immob to 1,25s but make it 4 pulses only. It keeps the same max duration, actively getting out of it via cleanse or cleave stays the same, slightly less bleeding in optimal scenario but retains usefulness against generic condi-reduction. Perfect solution (ok adding poison on top would be perfect :P).

Maybe it should cripple instead of immobilise, but in return hit the affected player every second even if they move as long as they are still within the cast range of the Ranger.

We’d lose the immobilise, but we’ve get the bleeds and cripple much more reliably.

IDK, this skill has always been an issue. Hard to say what the solution is.