Guild Wars 2

Thought there was a place to dicuss the idea of removing the Evade from Powerstab (Greatsword 3rd ability from #1 chain) and move it to swoop. The idea as state is to give Rangers a more controlled and reactive on-demand dodge. This is a change very likely to go live.

Well, i think this change would give a “usability overload”. Don’t worry, i don’t know what it means either since i’ve just invented it. My point is, gap closer, leap finisher, all into one would limit my usage in a way.

As it is, i have a choice in spending my gap closer to trigger a combo field, or ignore that field for now because the mobility will be priceless shortly. Add-in the Evade factor and now i’m seeing a tri-factor of regret as in using swoop for one purpose will have me lament losing access to its other two important aspects of the same skill.

TLDR: A combo finisher, gap closer and evade are three too much important moves to be combined into a single ability. Leads to more frustration in a sense of loss, instead of fun decision making gameplay.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.

I tend to think a little option paralysis is a good thing in game with action combat. Least you get that boring as heck ‘cycles’ business.

I wouldn’t mind some sort of aoe cc on the third spin. Whirl finishers are very underpowered so what JP suggested i wouldn’t be a fan of.

On top of that I feel gs #1 needs a 20% damage boost. The weapon should have high cleave dps because it doesn’t do ANY aoe.

If that happens swoop would be RTL 2.0. And I would expect it to recieve the same cooldown treatment.

It wouldn’t hurt PvE (yeah like we see a lot of GS rangers anyway) and it would balance PvP/WvW.

Just gonna throw this out here even though I’m not a fan of the proposed GS change. IF the devs decide to change the GS, please allow us to cleave up to 5 instead of 3 since we no longer have the evade on the 3rd chain and there’d be higher risk involved in autoattacking.

I hate the idea. The 1-chain as it is is pretty core to what the GS currently does, which is an attrition/control weapon. Also, I think if anything gets a utility function it’s Maul. As it stands, Maul is nothing more then a DPS boost that you punch on cooldown. Giving it a minor secondary (2 sec blind, removing 1 boon, transfer 1 condition, something like that) function so you have a reason to think about using it or not would be better then changing swoop, which I desperately do not want changed because it would probably have it’s cooldown nerfed in exchange.

Jon said no changes to the cooldown of swoop.

Think of it more like a leap version of Warrior greatsword 3 whirlwind attack

It has a combo finisher, it can be used as a gap closer/escape, and also evades all attacks in the process. Only difference is swoop applies the damage at the end. The changes they mentioned only make the skill more usable, and Jon even said they might not even remove the evade from the aa chain.

Yes if we can keep the evade in our aa, no if we have to lose it.

Giving an evade to Swoop would only help, it would be nice to have, but not so much that we sacrifice the aa evade. That’s a bad deal.

Overall that would make us weaker.

Bad idea imho. Hurts sustain when waiting for weapon swap. Adds something to PvE, but… I’d be glad to see adding an Evade to Hilt Bash #5. It already has likely-evade animation and this skill certainly lacks in everything. Adding small factor such as evade would greatly improve skill’s usefulness in both PvE and PvP. Adding evade to already disengage ability like Swoop is imho wasting 2 defenses in one skill. One defense ability per skill is enough.

Removing the aa evade for an evade on swoop would make the weapon too weak.
Could be nice if the aa evade could be kept, but with a reduced activation time on power stab (which simultaneously reduces the evade time frame and increases dps, also gives the chain a smoother feeling) along with the addition of evade to swoop, would make the weapon more aggressive and active, with a bit less susttain but without trashing it like a too-big change (aa evade removal) risks doing.

Anet: ‘Lets take the ONE thing that makes Ranger unique… And put it in the bin!’
Me: Lol even Blizzard balanced better

Also, the idea is to give us an active on demand dodge? OH REALLY
Isn’t that like, what we do when we use endurance up?

The stupidity in this is astounding, where do they get the people who work on Ranger?
Most underpowered class ~> lets nerf it some … more? In every patch … ?

@ Nica please dial down the toxicity. We’re trying to have a dicussion here.

Come to think of it, leaving the chain as is and just adding on-demand evade on swoop, doesn’t sound imbalanced at all. I mean we already have a weapon set (sword/dagger) with 3 evades as is.

The idea to give it to Maul instead isn’t too shabby either, although an evade seems… unfit (I mean with the bear animation and the overall feel of the skill not being acrobatic, does that make sense?), which could’ve been worked around with a sec of distortion or block.

That actually sounds fun, making Maul an ability that isn’t just pressed for the damage and vulnerability. With the added defensive aspect, it would add another layer of tactical usage. “Should i use it now or is he gonna throw a something nasty, should i save it a couple more seconds?”. That duality in my head sounds fun!

Ariete.6509:

@ Nica please dial down the toxicity. We’re trying to have a dicussion here.

Come to think of it, leaving the chain as is and just adding on-demand evade on swoop, doesn’t sound imbalanced at all. I mean we already have a weapon set (sword/dagger) with 3 evades as is.

The idea to give it to Maul instead isn’t too shabby either, although an evade seems… unfit (I mean with the bear animation and the overall feel of the skill not being acrobatic, does that make sense?), which could’ve been worked around with a sec of distortion or block.

That actually sounds fun, making Maul an ability that isn’t just pressed for the damage and vulnerability. With the added defensive aspect, it would add another layer of tactical usage. “Should i use it now or is he gonna throw a something nasty, should i save it a couple more seconds?”. That duality in my head sounds fun!

Actually adding an evade to Swoop would make it pretty problematic as an escape tool. It would almost guarantee that upon activation there would be no chance of hitting you with more CC whereas right now a well-timed daze/stun/KD will shut it down. We want the GS to be a better offensive tool while making sure its defense actually works as intended; adding an evade to swoop accomplishes neither if you ignore its other problems.

I think the best solution is to keep it on the AA chain, since it’s conceptually ill-suited for Maul and doesn’t solve the problems Hilt Bash actually possesses. To buff damage/keep the evade under control, you can slightly increase the attack speed/base damage/ratio of the AA chain’s attacks. This will increase dps, increase its usability with quickness, and keep the evade time under control because a faster attack animation decreases evade frames.

That said, Maul’s buff wasn’t enough, #4 is still too clunky in both of its functions (I pretty much only use it as a ranged block) and Hilt Bash’s activation range/pet effect are underwhelming.

Ariete.6509:

@ Nica please dial down the toxicity. We’re trying to have a dicussion here.

Sorry if my response was too coated in cynicism for you to be able to see the honest opinion within. Allow me to sum it up:

I don’t think Anet have a clue what they are doing with Ranger. They also clearly refuse to listen.

bradderzh.2378:

Think of it more like a leap version of Warrior greatsword 3 whirlwind attack

It has a combo finisher, it can be used as a gap closer/escape, and also evades all attacks in the process. Only difference is swoop applies the damage at the end.

Whirlwind attack also has a 0.7 damage coefficient and hits up to 4 times, for an effective max single-target coefficient of 2.8, and a max multi-target coefficient of 8.4. In practice it’s difficult to get all 4 hits to strike a single target (you have to use the skill up against a wall or corner). But the potential damage of the skill is just phenomenal for something on a 10 sec cooldown.

If Swoop’s damage coefficient were upped from its current 1.0 to about 2.0 and made to cleave to be more like Whirlwind Attack, I think a lot more rangers would be on board with the idea of moving the evade to Swoop.

But in its current state, you’re moving the primary defensive skill of the GS to a secondary defensive skill most rangers just keep in reserve in case they need to escape. The defensive utility of the weapon would be greatly diminished (a semi-controllable evade* every 2.5 sec plus a separate escape skill, to a fully controllable evade/escape every 13.75 sec), with no corresponding increase in either defense or offense to balance it out.

*Yes it’s semi-controllable. If you’ve mastered ranger sword, turn off autoattack on GS as well. You’ll have a little control over when the evade happens.

People complain that #2 is too slow and #5 is hard to actually land – Anet suggests nerfing #1 and buffing #3 (which is already amazing) as a fix.

Sounds about right.

I agree with everything Leuca said.

bradderzh.2378:

Only difference is swoop applies the damage at the end.

Yeah, sure. Let’s reduce swoop range to 450 range then.

Blast Finisher on Maul. That is all

Tklees.9052:

Blast Finisher on Maul. That is all

Unnecessary and doesn’t solve the problems Maul has. The skill needs to have damage. If they add a Blast finisher, they will probably nerf the cooldown on it or change one or more of our combo fields to compensate.

So if removing evade on 3rd really needs to happen for it to have a WW finisher, would it be balanced to have maul same cooldown (6sekittenraited), applying same vulnerability but added protection for say 3sec (you know there’s a bear animation so protect from the bear spirit)?

I don’t know i keep getting back to adding a defensive aspect to Maul being interesting…

Leuca.5732:

Tklees.9052:

Blast Finisher on Maul. That is all

Unnecessary and doesn’t solve the problems Maul has. The skill needs to have damage. If they add a Blast finisher, they will probably nerf the cooldown on it or change one or more of our combo fields to compensate.

O Rly? Guardian hammer 2 says hai.

Leuca.5732:

Actually adding an evade to Swoop would make it pretty problematic as an escape tool. It would almost guarantee that upon activation there would be no chance of hitting you with more CC whereas right now a well-timed daze/stun/KD will shut it down. We want the GS to be a better offensive tool while making sure its defense actually works as intended; adding an evade to swoop accomplishes neither if you ignore its other problems.

Who says thats what the we (the whole ranger community?) want, let alone actually knows what is intended for defensive capability? Certainly no one for the first point, and no one thats not a red poster for the second. The idea that the evade alone would make it problematic is silly considering RTL isn’t effected by movement impairment at all, Warrior GS 3 and FGS 3 both have evades on gap closers, and as far as their other gap closers go warriors are nearly immune to movement impairment (- 93-98% chill/cripple/immob duration, not to mention warhorn movement break if they want overkill).

I’d like to see swoop work like a forward moving version of withdraw (evade + movement impairment removal). Why? Rangers are supposed to be the at-one-with-nature class, yet we’re the ones without dogged march or a movement impairment break on warhorn. Solution? Put it on GS3.

If thats too “OP” (hard to imagine, considering Withdraw isnt OP, swoop doesnt hit hard, and we dont have dogged march elsewhere), then I would choose a movement impairment cleanse for Swoop long before I chose an evade.

Ariete.6509:

Thought there was a place to dicuss the idea of removing the Evade from Powerstab (Greatsword 3rd ability from #1 chain) and move it to swoop. The idea as state is to give Rangers a more controlled and reactive on-demand dodge. This is a change very likely to go live.

When did this go from an idea that they were just throwing around and that the dev admitted wasn’t very good after a bunch of people objected to it to a change that is very likely to go live?

I’d say having a dev discussing it is pretty close for it to happen. At least it’s on their radar. Although it’s not even on the preview of next big patch, then again it it were closer to going live, the tone of the discussion would be different.

For that reason i still think it’s a pertinent thread, even if i did bloated it a little.

Most of this ideas won´t help.
Do fix this weapon, an make it more fun and viable we need.

1. Endurance per Hit on AA 3, possibel a whirl finisher too.
2. A few seconds vigor+swiftness on swoop (possibel for allies 2-3secs should be enough).
3. Counterkick useable while moving+evade itself.

And by hell, buff AA DPS to be onpar with the sword. Maul+AA should do the same dps then MH sword.

I can take MH sword at the moment. I will get.
1. much more dps about 15% more (or 20%…)
2. it´s nearly impossibel to kite me
3. i can switch targets awesome fast (with AA and 3)
4. i have 2 evades without a offhand weapon
5. i have 1 finisher

If i will equip an offhand weapon i can get.

1. explosionfinisher + nice dps buffs (WH4 needs more dmg or conditions like torment/bleeding)
2. projectil block/retalation/vul/finisher (this skill should be a ground target)
3. Hard cc (pull) + strong burst
4. nice range dps/soft cc and another evade with poison

So stop talking about the GS as a defensive weapon. The GS is broken in 95% of the game. The only place for it, is in WvsW bigscale. That´s all.

This weapon is not a viable choice and low dps is one the reasons to NOT pick it most times.

For example, Warrior Axe and GS are useable together, or alone. Cause both have diffrent playstyles/skills (and support, axe/warhorn for example). But they have nearly the same dps. That´s mean, u have a choice. They´re axebuilds, GS builds, and GS+Axe builds…and all are viable.

But the ranger GS is not as viable as the warrios axe for example.

10% more dmg on AA + 2sec protection on maul (+ evade on swoop while keeping evade on AA) = viable gs.
Atm sword/x is better at everything.

Raven.9603:

O Rly? Guardian hammer 2 says hai.

Guardians don’t access to water field, and that’s the only finisher their hammer has.

Who says thats what the we (the whole ranger community?) want, let alone actually knows what is intended for defensive capability? Certainly no one for the first point, and no one thats not a red poster for the second. The idea that the evade alone would make it problematic is silly considering RTL isn’t effected by movement impairment at all, Warrior GS 3 and FGS 3 both have evades on gap closers, and as far as their other gap closers go warriors are nearly immune to movement impairment (- 93-98% chill/cripple/immob duration, not to mention warhorn movement break if they want overkill).

The greatsword is obviously a defensive weapon with a small amount of offensive utility. Greatsword is not really lacking in the defense department; it merely needs a little tuning up in that regard. That leaves offense as the main wanting category.

RTL: Has a significantly longer recharge even if it hits, and no finisher.

Whirling Attack: Has inferior range and finisher, with a minimal recharge advantage.

Rush: Has a longer recharge, no finisher, and awkward end animation for its hitbox.

FGS: You’re really going to compare Swoop to another skill that’s linked to an ult?

I’d like to see swoop work like a forward moving version of withdraw (evade + movement impairment removal). Why? Rangers are supposed to be the at-one-with-nature class, yet we’re the ones without dogged march or a movement impairment break on warhorn. Solution? Put it on GS3.

If thats too “OP” (hard to imagine, considering Withdraw isnt OP, swoop doesnt hit hard, and we dont have dogged march elsewhere), then I would choose a movement impairment cleanse for Swoop long before I chose an evade.

Withdraw doesn’t have a leap finisher and does no damage.

Our inefficiencies in other areas, as well as other professions possessing mechanics that are really too strong aren’t reasons to overbuff a weapon when Anet is likely to nerf something else to compensate. I honestly don’t have a lot of confidence in their balancing capabilities as of right now, so I’d rather not encourage risky buffing.

Norjena.5172:

Most of this ideas won´t help.
1. Endurance per Hit on AA 3, possibel a whirl finisher too.
2. A few seconds vigor+swiftness on swoop (possibel for allies 2-3secs should be enough).

I wouldn’t want endurance gain/vigor on the greatsword. Dodging and then getting back in range is time you’re not attacking, so it turns the greatsword too much into a low-damage high-defense weapon, and breaks the in-your-face feeling, which is the wrong direction imo. Plus acrobatics during combats fits the thief’s dagger but not so much the ranger.

I was initially in favor of the change, but after using the GS quite a bit in the Tower to good effect I don’t think I am any more.

I still think an evade on Swoop letting you dash right through projectiles would be awesome and I love the idea of Swoop’ing through a shower of arrows unharmed (in fact, its one of the first things I tried when I first started playing the game, and was saddened it didn’t work), but I don’t think it’d be worth the loss of evade on auto-attack. Even if the current evade is sort of “RNG-ish” as the devs put it (at least if you’re using auto-attack and not manually trying to time the 3rd hit), its still letting you passively avoid at least a third of the attacks coming at you. Which is still rather fantastic defensively. A single evade on a 10-12 second timer just wouldn’t be nearly as good.

Giving you Vigor to allow you to manually evade would keep the defense aspect to a degree (especially if you’re running the trait that gives you Protection on evade) but it would hurt the offense of the weapon even more. You’re having to manually dodge attacks instead of dodging and attacking at once automatically, so obviously that’s even less offense than what GS outputs right now. And considering GS is hardly an offensive powerhouse as it is, I don’t think that would be a good thing. Maybe it would have worked back before the pet damage nerf, build it right and the pet can pick up the slack for damage-dealing while you tank hits, but I don’t think it would really work out with the current state of pet offense.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Norjena.5172:

Most of this ideas won´t help.
1. Endurance per Hit on AA 3, possibel a whirl finisher too.
2. A few seconds vigor+swiftness on swoop (possibel for allies 2-3secs should be enough).

I wouldn’t want endurance gain/vigor on the greatsword. Dodging and then getting back in range is time you’re not attacking, so it turns the greatsword too much into a low-damage high-defense weapon, and breaks the in-your-face feeling, which is the wrong direction imo. Plus acrobatics during combats fits the thief’s dagger but not so much the ranger.

And a freaking low DPS useless AA Chain with a rnd most times useless dogde is what?
Bad for defensive and aweful offense!

That´s it. Just a fact, nothing to argument about, it´s the truth.

This weapon will stay useless in 95% of the game if they won´t buff dps and removing the rnd dogde.
And yes it is random.
If u´re waiting with AA3 to dogde u will lose more dmg then u will get, this argument is foolish too.
The DPS of this is weapon is so bad cause of this stupid dogde, 20% lower DPS then MH Sword is your prize if u are autoattacking. Waiting with AA3…it won´t get better.
Ranger´s have so much dogdeskills, u can play GS+Sword/Dagger vor example. Utilitys, vigor.
They lack in 2 things.
1. active condition remove
2. Low DPS with most weapons, especially greatsword. GS rangers are just a Joke in both PvP and PvE.

What does it help?
Evading a warrios Axe AA but getting an Evis in the face…evading lupicus locust swarm but getting a kick in the butt.

In PvE i will kick LB rangers and GS rangers too. I trained hard to manage the MH sword, cause it´s 1000times stronger if u can handle it.
But i wanted to build Twilight for my ranger…my first charcter, and i don´t want to be useless with it!

Norjena.5172:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

Norjena.5172:

Most of this ideas won´t help.
1. Endurance per Hit on AA 3, possibel a whirl finisher too.
2. A few seconds vigor+swiftness on swoop (possibel for allies 2-3secs should be enough).

I wouldn’t want endurance gain/vigor on the greatsword. Dodging and then getting back in range is time you’re not attacking, so it turns the greatsword too much into a low-damage high-defense weapon, and breaks the in-your-face feeling, which is the wrong direction imo. Plus acrobatics during combats fits the thief’s dagger but not so much the ranger.

And a freaking low DPS useless AA Chain with a rnd most times useless dogde is what?
Bad for defensive and aweful offense!

That´s it. Just a fact, nothing to argument about, it´s the truth.

And how exactly is exchanging evade for increased endurance regen or whirl finisher supposed to help with dps? The former is something Anet is trying to tone down right about now anyway, while the latter one is utterly useless.

Yes, GS #1 needs increased base damage. No doubt about that. But if the evade is to be moved to GS #3, it has to be replaced by something that is going to be more, or at least equally useful, not less. You want increased dps? Think might on every 3rd hit. Or some sort of condition removal on every 3rd, to increase viability of builds that don’t require 30 points in WS.

DPS like Sword, and more dogderolls when u have to dogde.

Win=Win
And a way to make this weapon viable and balanced.

Evade on swoop will be too strong. It would get nerfed after a few weeks or month´s. And it is primarly a gap closer and it does this job well.

What GS need´s is raw DPS not Might. Might is easy to get and will help sologamer´s but in groups the weapon will still be behind MH Sword.
Conditionremove…not a bad idea, but a whirl can do this too. And would be a little bit uniqe utility.
Conditioremove should be on 7-9 skills, signets for example.

Norjena.5172:

DPS like Sword, and more dogderolls when u have to dogde.

Win=Win
And a way to make this weapon viable and balanced.

Evade on swoop will be too strong. It would get nerfed after a few weeks or month´s. And it is primarly a gap closer and it does this job well.

What GS need´s is raw DPS not Might. Might is easy to get and will help sologamer´s but in groups the weapon will still be behind MH Sword.
Conditionremove…not a bad idea, but a whirl can do this too. And would be a little bit uniqe utility.
Conditioremove should be on 7-9 skills, signets for example.

Endurance regen / vigor on GS #1 would most likely get nerfed sooner rather than later as well anyway. I don’t really get why devs themselves come up with such idea considering their attempts to tone the endurance regen down throughout the game.

I’m thinking more in terms increased base DPS + Might on every 3rd hit, in a similar way Sword #1 gives Might to pets. Sure, it would require some balancing, but would also help power builds. It’s still better option than endurance regen.

As for the condi removal – as long as Ranger’s signets work as they work now, Signet of Renewal will always be way less than ideal option. Make it independent from the pet, decrease CD and it may be a solution. Otherwise, not really.

Whirl finishers offer cleansing, yes. But they require Light Fields for that. Last thing we need here is being even more dependant on other classes, and especially on Guardians.

Why it would get nerfed? Losing a “rnd” but high uptime Evade with low dps.
But getting a little bit more dogderolls when they are needed.
Lower evadeuptime, less dmg when u dogde, but higher dmg without dogding.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Strike 10 per Hit, and Thief Dagger is attacking much faster then our GS. So we would get a weaker version of this.

On the other hand, GS gameplay could be improved by this. Imo…

DPS: AA 1+2, Maul/Swoop (Melee), interupt AA3 as often u can.
Avoidence: AA…….some times Maul

With this change, there will be a choice.

Ok, i have not full endurance, but possibel i have to dogde some big hits in a few seconds. So let us do the Full AA Chain.
Oh, i want vigor (or an Allie) well ok swoop.
Just for an example.

GS AA needs a buff about..20 or 30% (last hit, not the full chain). This+whirl+endurance per hit, could make the GS gameplay more fluently in a lot of Situations. 1 AA Chain 1 Maul 2 AA Chains and so on.

And at last. U can´t compare endurance per hit with flat endurance buffs. Cause u have to attack (cripple/chill/immo/stun or u have to use another skill, hilt bash for example).
If u get kited or ccd, evade on AA won´t help. But a little bit more endurance gain before u got controlled, can change something.

Edit: 1 Thing, Sword has got Might on AA, but GS has got Vul on Maul, that´s fair and balanced in think.

Leave the evade on GS1.

Make GS3 cleanse snares like Warrior horn.

Norjena.5172:

Why it would get nerfed? Losing a “rnd” but high uptime Evade with low dps.
But getting a little bit more dogderolls when they are needed.
Lower evadeuptime, less dmg when u dogde, but higher dmg without dogding.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Strike 10 per Hit, and Thief Dagger is attacking much faster then our GS. So we would get a weaker version of this.

On the other hand, GS gameplay could be improved by this. Imo…

DPS: AA 1+2, Maul/Swoop (Melee), interupt AA3 as often u can.
Avoidence: AA…….some times Maul

With this change, there will be a choice.

Ok, i have not full endurance, but possibel i have to dogde some big hits in a few seconds. So let us do the Full AA Chain.
Oh, i want vigor (or an Allie) well ok swoop.
Just for an example.

GS AA needs a buff about..20 or 30% (last hit, not the full chain). This+whirl+endurance per hit, could make the GS gameplay more fluently in a lot of Situations. 1 AA Chain 1 Maul 2 AA Chains and so on.

And at last. U can´t compare endurance per hit with flat endurance buffs. Cause u have to attack (cripple/chill/immo/stun or u have to use another skill, hilt bash for example).
If u get kited or ccd, evade on AA won´t help. But a little bit more endurance gain before u got controlled, can change something.

Edit: 1 Thing, Sword has got Might on AA, but GS has got Vul on Maul, that´s fair and balanced in think.

It would get nerfed because they’re already taking steps towards nerfing endurance regen across certain classes, and that included Ranger unfortunately. They nerfed Vigorous Renewal recently, and Natural Vigor is going to be nerfed with the December 10th patch. Adding endurance regen to GS would go against this policy, and it doesn’t really matter whether the regen is “flat” or “on-hit” kind.

Frankly, potential improvement of GS playstyle with all this would be marginal, if any at all. Yes, we would get more options. But most of them would be “meh” at best anyway. Issues GS suffers from are tied to its effectivenes above all else, not flexibility.

And no, Vulnerability on GS #3 is in no way fair and balanced in comparison with Might on Sword #1. In fact, Vulnerability could be moved to GS #1. It’s a condition that has been designed to enhance spike damage, not to be applied with it.

Keep the great sword as it is bit just bump the damage of its AA by 20-30% and then maul by another ~10% or so.

Searban.5984:

It would get nerfed because they’re already taking steps towards nerfing endurance regen across certain classes, and that included Ranger unfortunately. They nerfed Vigorous Renewal recently, and Natural Vigor is going to be nerfed with the December 10th patch. Adding endurance regen to GS would go against this policy, and it doesn’t really matter whether the regen is “flat” or “on-hit” kind.

Frankly, potential improvement of GS playstyle with all this would be marginal, if any at all. Yes, we would get more options. But most of them would be “meh” at best anyway. Issues GS suffers from are tied to its effectivenes above all else, not flexibility.

And no, Vulnerability on GS #3 is in no way fair and balanced in comparison with Might on Sword #1. In fact, Vulnerability could be moved to GS #1. It’s a condition that has been designed to enhance spike damage, not to be applied with it.

They nerf Endureg cause of to much avoids. Losing AA Evade will make space, dev itself said (adding vigor on AA 3). For example.

Vul on AA…good idea like it would be better true. Possibel a few long duration Bleedings on Maul again?
At the moment it´s better to grab a warrior´s banner to do dps instead of using the GS AA…

Wait, when did they say anything about this change? This would absolutely ruin the ranger GS unless they made the other skills more powerful than the Warrior GS skills.

I mean the only reason I use the GS at all is that evade for fighting off mobs; everything else on the ranger GS is really just underwhelming…

Rangers need endurance and evades as it’s our primary survival tool; thieves have stealth and warriors have greater damage and higher base vit and armor (not to mention access to just as much endurance regen).

I mean even the nerf to natural vigor is a poor decision on their part (and again; warriors get the better version of a something we have…).

“We think rangers have too much vigor”

Oh, really now? Warriors have access to almost just as much if not more and have higher base vit and armor. They can get 10s of vigor every 20 seconds, have signet of stamina, Building Momentum (burst skills restore endurance), etc. Warriors also have many more defensive/survival utilities than the ranger and on lower cool downs! (endure pain + the endure pain trait + a shield invuln + all their vigor/endurance etc…. Rangers essentially only have their evasive qualities: why nerf that?)

I am just becoming more and more frustrated with Anets sense of balance…

What about moving the vulnerability onto GS1 3rd AA and adding weakness to maul. Additional effect could be if maul hits from behind, remove some conditions off you. I’d suggest adding a kd on maul instead but I dunno how unbalanced that would be.

Sollith.3502:

Wait, when did they say anything about this change? This would absolutely ruin the ranger GS unless they made the other skills more powerful than the Warrior GS skills.

I mean the only reason I use the GS at all is that evade for fighting off mobs; everything else on the ranger GS is really just underwhelming…

Rangers need endurance and evades as it’s our primary survival tool; thieves have stealth and warriors have greater damage and higher base vit and armor (not to mention access to just as much endurance regen).

I mean even the nerf to natural vigor is a poor decision on their part (and again; warriors get the better version of a something we have…).

“We think rangers have too much vigor”

Oh, really now? Warriors have access to almost just as much if not more and have higher base vit and armor. They can get 10s of vigor every 20 seconds, have signet of stamina, Building Momentum (burst skills restore endurance), etc. Warriors also have many more defensive/survival utilities than the ranger and on lower cool downs! (endure pain + the endure pain trait + a shield invuln + all their vigor/endurance etc…. Rangers essentially only have their evasive qualities: why nerf that?)

I am just becoming more and more frustrated with Anets sense of balance…

I get to tiered to explain why pro GSAA Evade arguments are all foolish….this weapon suck so hard cause it don´t do dmg.

Block is strong, Swoop is strong.
Hilt Bash needs a fix to hit targets better. Maul is ok.
The only thing that´s bad is the AA Chain, there are alot of possibilitys to “buff” this weapon in dps/dmg and giving it enough utility to make it a viable weapon.

U shouldn´t compare with warrior GS only, it is NOT so strong, it can´t be a stand alone weapon in PvP/WvsW and in PvE it´s DPS is about 5% lower then Axe/GS rotation or 2-3% then fullbuffed pure Axe.
It´s a good viable weapon, but not god under weapons. Ranger GS should be this too, and a stupid rnd evade will not help here.

U´ll get 30% less dmg, but dealing 30% less dmg…now tell where this should be usefull?
Dead enemys don´t make dmg anymore, in PvP/WvsW and PvE dps/dmg is important.
A low utility low dps weapon with a little bit extra defensive can´t be viable.

Warrior Mace for example is a strong CC/Def weapon, lower dps but warrios have 5sec weaponchange if traited. We have to stay for 10 seconds with this weapon where all enemys get tickled from. And healing themselfs with passive heals…

Try to play a warrior with Mace/Shield, and stay for 10secs this too use the AA Chain.

Norjena.5172:

Sollith.3502:

Wait, when did they say anything about this change? This would absolutely ruin the ranger GS unless they made the other skills more powerful than the Warrior GS skills.

I mean the only reason I use the GS at all is that evade for fighting off mobs; everything else on the ranger GS is really just underwhelming…

Rangers need endurance and evades as it’s our primary survival tool; thieves have stealth and warriors have greater damage and higher base vit and armor (not to mention access to just as much endurance regen).

I mean even the nerf to natural vigor is a poor decision on their part (and again; warriors get the better version of a something we have…).

“We think rangers have too much vigor”

Oh, really now? Warriors have access to almost just as much if not more and have higher base vit and armor. They can get 10s of vigor every 20 seconds, have signet of stamina, Building Momentum (burst skills restore endurance), etc. Warriors also have many more defensive/survival utilities than the ranger and on lower cool downs! (endure pain + the endure pain trait + a shield invuln + all their vigor/endurance etc…. Rangers essentially only have their evasive qualities: why nerf that?)

I am just becoming more and more frustrated with Anets sense of balance…

I get to tiered to explain why pro GSAA Evade arguments are all foolish….this weapon suck so hard cause it don´t do dmg.

Block is strong, Swoop is strong.
Hilt Bash needs a fix to hit targets better. Maul is ok.
The only thing that´s bad is the AA Chain, there are alot of possibilitys to “buff” this weapon in dps/dmg and giving it enough utility to make it a viable weapon.

U shouldn´t compare with warrior GS only, it is NOT so strong, it can´t be a stand alone weapon in PvP/WvsW and in PvE it´s DPS is about 5% lower then Axe/GS rotation or 2-3% then fullbuffed pure Axe.
It´s a good viable weapon, but not god under weapons. Ranger GS should be this too, and a stupid rnd evade will not help here.

U´ll get 30% less dmg, but dealing 30% less dmg…now tell where this should be usefull?
Dead enemys don´t make dmg anymore, in PvP/WvsW and PvE dps/dmg is important.
A low utility low dps weapon with a little bit extra defensive can´t be viable.

Warrior Mace for example is a strong CC/Def weapon, lower dps but warrios have 5sec weaponchange if traited. We have to stay for 10 seconds with this weapon where all enemys get tickled from. And healing themselfs with passive heals…

Try to play a warrior with Mace/Shield, and stay for 10secs this too use the AA Chain.

Again… The issue is weapon’s damage. The way to solve the issue is to increase weapon’s damage. Removing the evade has nothing to do with that (slow animation will stay as it is no matter what is attached to it). At the same time, that evade is pretty handy when zerg surfing in WvW. Last thing Rangers need is something that will make them even worse in zerg fights.

Searban.5984:

Norjena.5172:

I get to tiered to explain why pro GSAA Evade arguments are all foolish….this weapon suck so hard cause it don´t do dmg.

Block is strong, Swoop is strong.
Hilt Bash needs a fix to hit targets better. Maul is ok.
The only thing that´s bad is the AA Chain, there are alot of possibilitys to “buff” this weapon in dps/dmg and giving it enough utility to make it a viable weapon.

U shouldn´t compare with warrior GS only, it is NOT so strong, it can´t be a stand alone weapon in PvP/WvsW and in PvE it´s DPS is about 5% lower then Axe/GS rotation or 2-3% then fullbuffed pure Axe.
It´s a good viable weapon, but not god under weapons. Ranger GS should be this too, and a stupid rnd evade will not help here.

U´ll get 30% less dmg, but dealing 30% less dmg…now tell where this should be usefull?
Dead enemys don´t make dmg anymore, in PvP/WvsW and PvE dps/dmg is important.
A low utility low dps weapon with a little bit extra defensive can´t be viable.

Warrior Mace for example is a strong CC/Def weapon, lower dps but warrios have 5sec weaponchange if traited. We have to stay for 10 seconds with this weapon where all enemys get tickled from. And healing themselfs with passive heals…

Try to play a warrior with Mace/Shield, and stay for 10secs this too use the AA Chain.

Again… The issue is weapon’s damage. The way to solve the issue is to increase weapon’s damage. Removing the evade has nothing to do with that (slow animation will stay as it is no matter what is attached to it). At the same time, that evade is pretty handy when zerg surfing in WvW. Last thing Rangers need is something that will make them even worse in zerg fights.

Searban gets it: I love to use the GSAA for group battles as it provides just that small bit of extra survivability to keep you alive while still hitting something. Swoop can be used as a good gap closer as well as a decent retreat tool.

This might just be that I am used to timing and chaining my attacks since this skill is a lot like how smashes worked in Vindictus and other games that actually require the player to aim, time, and judge the distance of their attacks than the “game does it for you” auto-targeting gw2 spam fest.

Counter attack is extremely clunky though and needs to be reworked (ends up being more of a liability in anything but 1v1s in pvp or pve and even then…); the block on the other hand works perfectly fine though.

I also don’t understand peoples issue with Hilt Bash as I have never had an issue having it hit in PvE or WvW… but that may just be my experience from action combat games shining through since I don’t rely on the game to do all the targeting and distance judging for me (combat mode ftw).

Also, as the main concern I have seen by talking with players and what I have seen on the forums are that counter attack is clunky (remember now; the block is a completely different and is just in the same chain) and that the damage is too low even for a survival based weapon (as other survival weapons in game either provide cc and/or condition damage).

Then again I have never really had an issue with ranger weapons, endurance, etc. since they feel right overall when compared to other classes that seem to be clunky, lurchy and just lack a real visceral feel to them. It’s always been with the mechanic being just… unreliable and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Increasing (and don´t removing the evade) the weapon´s DSP by about 15-20% (what´s it rly need, with! Maul and interrupting AA 3 as often u can) will resulting in a few scenarios.

1. Increase DPS of the Chain by about 30% (or more). U will do Sword/Horn, or Warrios Axe or Guardian Sword DPS.
But still avoiding 1/4 (with Maul) of all incomming dmg, without! using any defense skill, or knowing what u have to do.

That looks a bit wiered or? I would say OP. Endurance per hit or 2/3sec vigor on swoop (no avoid here) can be better. For defensive (more dogdes when they are rly needed), and offensive (dmg when u want dmg, an not forced u use a weak AA) without being op.

2. Buff Maul to increase Weapon DPS by 15%, that means another…uhm 50? percent dmg on this
…AoE low CD…spamming Maul will be insane burst, ok dps.

Awful gameplay (never! NEVER! using AA3…..) but no defense.
Or spamming AA…low dmg, and the same we have now. But still “OP” Burst…
Avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, oh no he/she is immoblized! BAM! MAUL! haha Noob! l2p……

OP Burst or useless “avoidence dps”. Is this a good trade?

WvsW Bigscale is never balanced, rangers suck´s with GS or without, why should be the weapon stay useless cause of this? In PvE>useless PvP>too weak Small Scale>too weak.
If a gamemode is not balanceable, why should a weapon/class be balanced here? I know this argument is a bit foolish. I don´t like it, but it is a good question.

At least, counterkick/block. I wrote often here. Counterkick should be useable while moving, and an evade itself.
This+ al little bit endu per hit (10) + a little bit (3sec max, better 2) vigor on swoop (swiftness too, for the pet, u´re in range but the pet is somewhere..).

Will make is much better. On top would be rly nice.

Weakness to Maul (only main target, if this is possibel AoE Weakness with 4-6sec CD will be too strong)
>better in PvP and WvsW bigscale too (support), for PvE…some classes do more dmg per condition on the target. In future cc could be usefull and not dps only.

Vulnerability could be move to 1, AA 1 and 2, or 2 and 3 (possibel 3 will get overloaded, but Maul is pretty strong, and i don´t like AA interrupting gameplay with ranger´s GS, Warrios GS is enough of this…)

Whirl finisher too aa3
>more utility (defensive or offensive) and support. Makes it a bit more viable in PvP and WvsW too.

Norjena.5172:

Increasing (and don´t removing the evade) the weapon´s DSP by about 15-20% (what´s it rly need, with! Maul and interrupting AA 3 as often u can) will resulting in a few scenarios.

1. Increase DPS of the Chain by about 30% (or more). U will do Sword/Horn, or Warrios Axe or Guardian Sword DPS.
But still avoiding 1/4 (with Maul) of all incomming dmg, without! using any defense skill, or knowing what u have to do.

That looks a bit wiered or? I would say OP. Endurance per hit or 2/3sec vigor on swoop (no avoid here) can be better. For defensive (more dogdes when they are rly needed), and offensive (dmg when u want dmg, an not forced u use a weak AA) without being op.

2. Buff Maul to increase Weapon DPS by 15%, that means another…uhm 50? percent dmg on this
…AoE low CD…spamming Maul will be insane burst, ok dps.

Awful gameplay (never! NEVER! using AA3…..) but no defense.
Or spamming AA…low dmg, and the same we have now. But still “OP” Burst…
Avoiding, avoiding, avoiding, oh no he/she is immoblized! BAM! MAUL! haha Noob! l2p……

OP Burst or useless “avoidence dps”. Is this a good trade?

Or the damage of GS #1 chain could be increased by a % lower than 30 and keept below Sword #1 chain, while GS #2 could receive another small buff as well, to fully compensate for the Bleeds it lost a while back. Weapon’s damage should be balanced around the whole skillset it offers, not around the AA exclusively. GS is designed to be a spike damage weapon, with damage coming primarily from both #1 and #2 and Sword to be sustain damage weapon, with damage coming primarily from #1. GS AA should be stronger than it is now, but it will never be equal to Sword AA, nor it should be.

But really, buff or not, that evade on GS #1 will hardly ever be OP, because you still have to time it for it to be worth anything.

Besides, if you think that it’s the evade on AA that stops Anet from increasing GS damage further, you’re naive. GS problems started back between the BWEs when it has been butchered by an overnerf. If the evade was the problem, it would’ve been dealt with back then. Instead, it was the damage that was overnerfed by a large margin, while the evade remained untouched. There are two key problems now. First – larger buff to damage would require devs to admitt they have made a mistake back then. Unfortunately, that’s not something that comes easy to Anet. Second – finding the right % for the buff, to avoid repeating the OP state GS was at the beginning of BWEs. Sadly, those two issues will probably result in GS not seeing any improvements to damage in the nearest future at all.

Norjena.5172:

WvsW Bigscale is never balanced, rangers suck´s with GS or without, why should be the weapon stay useless cause of this? In PvE>useless PvP>too weak Small Scale>too weak.
If a gamemode is not balanceable, why should a weapon/class be balanced here? I know this argument is a bit foolish. I don´t like it, but it is a good question.

If you know the argument is foolish, why do you even use it? By your logic if it is impossible to achieve perfect balance in a particular game mode, it’s perfectly fine to ignore it and make decisions that will gut one class even more in regard to that mode? Tell you what, as long as sPvP is about condi meta, GS will be useless in that mode too, let’s ignore it as well.

It is a stupid claim, pure and simple. Sure, perfect balance in zerg fights is impossible to achieve. But there is a difference between providing balance and providing certain minimal level of viability to all the classes. The latter is absolutely necessary, period.

Norjena.5172:

Whirl finisher too aa3
>more utility (defensive or offensive) and support. Makes it a bit more viable in PvP and WvsW too.

Again, what utility? Whirls are hardly useful now. The only finisher that could improve group utility for Rangers at this point is Blast on GS #2. Which will probably never happen anyway.

Greatsword evasion on autoattack is huge and removing it and adding evasion on Swoop would be a really bad call. The evasion comes in handy in zergs in WvW and so many other places as well. The greatsword is a primarily defensive weapon that can be specced to do average damage.

If anything the swoop should gain an evade while the autoattack #1 skill should stay as is.

Searban.5984:

Or the damage of GS #1 chain could be increased by a % lower than 30 and keept below Sword #1 chain, while GS #2 could receive another small buff as well, to fully compensate for the Bleeds it lost a while back. Weapon’s damage should be balanced around the whole skillset it offers, not around the AA exclusively. GS is designed to be a spike damage weapon, with damage coming primarily from both #1 and #2 and Sword to be sustain damage weapon, with damage coming primarily from #1. GS AA should be stronger than it is now, but it will never be equal to Sword AA, nor it should be.

But really, buff or not, that evade on GS #1 will hardly ever be OP, because you still have to time it for it to be worth anything.

Besides, if you think that it’s the evade on AA that stops Anet from increasing GS damage further, you’re naive. GS problems started back between the BWEs when it has been butchered by an overnerf. If the evade was the problem, it would’ve been dealt with back then. Instead, it was the damage that was overnerfed by a large margin, while the evade remained untouched. There are two key problems now. First – larger buff to damage would require devs to admitt they have made a mistake back then. Unfortunately, that’s not something that comes easy to Anet. Second – finding the right % for the buff, to avoid repeating the OP state GS was at the beginning of BWEs. Sadly, those two issues will probably result in GS not seeing any improvements to damage in the nearest future at all.

If you know the argument is foolish, why do you even use it? By your logic if it is impossible to achieve perfect balance in a particular game mode, it’s perfectly fine to ignore it and make decisions that will gut one class even more in regard to that mode? Tell you what, as long as sPvP is about condi meta, GS will be useless in that mode too, let’s ignore it as well.

1, If the dmg was OP, why the sword stayed untouched? I calculatet with Maul 1/4 avoid.
Even if only the AA is buffed my a small margin, it would be the same.
Buffing AA and using it only would be:
- about 5 or 10% lower DPS then sword but 1/3 of the time evade. Still OP.

I wanted to post this as a third scenario, but i saw that it would be not a scenario of it´s own. 1 or 2 will happen.

And again, u´re saying this avoid without timing is not well?

- Weapons DPS is alreay sooo……… much lower then others…
- u ar´re waiting with AA so your DPS is again sooo……… much lower then normal already lower GS DPS

And why by hell are u now defending this avoid? That does not make any scense.
The main argument, is doing dmg while dogding. But the dmg is so low, all the time even if don´t need to dogde.

And, if u have to time this dogde anyway, why u need a “passive” evade??
This this arguments are logical fail.
More better timed dogdes (cause of vigor and/or endu gain per hit) will increase effective defense. And will allow Anet to buff dps.

Simple reason, the player have to dogde. If u can get 2 things.

1. passiv 1 active, both are exactly equal. Why should some1 choose the active thing?
Passive things have to be a little bit weaker
.
Warriors healing signet for example. Healing surge is used by nobody these days…(but in a 30sec fight with burstphase it´s healing more then the signet). But all are running with the signet, even the “best” PvP Warriors…it´s healing if u dogde, it´s not interuptable and so on.

Now back to the GS, never thought that this avoid was the reason for a dmg nerf?
Great defensive, or offensive. But both? That was the reason for the BWE Nerf.

Without utility a defensive weapon is useless. And the GS utility is not rly well (it´s ok if the weapon will do swordlike dps).
Ranger´s don´t need a defensive weapon like this, ranger defensive it not bad. It´s one of the best ingame. Only active condition remove (without 30 points in sv) is lacking.

U say, look about the whole weapon. But then u say a whirl only is bad?

Take a look about all “my” ideas. All of them together could be too strong too. There will be.

1. More utility then now (whirl, weakness)
2. still nice defensive when needed (endu per hit, vigor)>more defensive synergies to other weapons, more build varity.
3. support (vigor for allies, and/or swiftness for the pet)
4. dps as much is needed to make the weapon viable
5. a strong defense skill with “fixed” counterkick"evade".
The Bigscale argument:
A not balanceable content (PvP or PvE are balanceable, smallscale too, only bigscale not). Is a reason to say “it´s fine” (a lot of guys are doing this, 10. dec thread or here or others…)
But to say it´s not balanced cause of this is not a reason?

Friendly greetings

Whatever they decide to do to the GS will most likely mess it up, and I use my GS all the time.

I’d like to be a Ranger but the bows are just rubbish.

I feel like a Warrior that has medium armour and just does less damage.

Norjena.5172:

1, If the dmg was OP, why the sword stayed untouched? I calculatet with Maul 1/4 avoid.
Even if only the AA is buffed my a small margin, it would be the same.
Buffing AA and using it only would be:
- about 5 or 10% lower DPS then sword but 1/3 of the time evade. Still OP.

Because damage of GS #1 was not 30% higher back then, but 40-50%. In addition to that there was also GS #2 as the source of spike and extra bleeds. GS was able to outdamage Sword back then. It was the damage that caused the community to demand a nerf. Not evade.

And again, Sword has only 1 source of damage, GS has 2. Two weapons, two different approaches to damage balance.

Norjena.5172:

And why by hell are u now defending this avoid? That does not make any scense.
The main argument, is doing dmg while dogding. But the dmg is so low, all the time even if don´t need to dogde.

I defend it for two fairly simple reasons.

First – because none of the things that were offered in exchange is on par with that evade, which saved my kitten more than a few times in those elements of game’s content where it really shines. Whirl finisher is a laughable utility. Additional source of endurance regen will most likely end with a dev coming here in two months saying “we still think that Ranger has too much endurance regen, so we’re going to nerf the regen on GS #1 by 50%”. And I really don’t feel like we need that source anyway. Literally the only thing I would be willing to trade the evade for is condi removal. Simply because it could actually help solve single biggest problem for power builds we’re facing now.

I’m perfectly aware that you presented more than one idea. But here is the problem – what you’re proposing is a complex rework of the entire weapon. Anet is not going to do that. We can only discuss changing separate skills, or swaping some elements between the two of them.

And the second reason – because supporting flawed idea of removing the evade will not convince Anet to increase damage of GS #1. That’s one hell of a misguided belief. They never said anything about any plans to even look at the AA numbers if they remove that evade. In fact, it’s the community that keeps pointing out that damage deficite is the key problem of GS AA. So far, they have never even comented on that.

Why would you remove the primary draw to GS and put it on a skill with 7.7x less activation rate? Why was this even considered instead of talking about giving maul a blast finisher, which is the only acceptable change possible to the weapon?

Especially if you’re goign to nerf endurance regen, why further reduce the number of evades we get per minute? Are you going to increase GS damage coefficients by a factor of about 5 in that case to compensate? And no, a whirl finisher on power stab is not any form of compensation whatsoever, literally no one will care or actively use it, to begin with whirl is unreliable due to its unpredictability in where it sends any bolts. Only with long whirls like whirling defense and daggerstorm is it of any effective use and even then only nominally due to chance.

The biggest problem I have with the evade is the lack of control over it, but I also find that when bashing through groups of targets I really do want the evade firing as often as possible.

If there’s not a technical limitation on it, what I think would be an easy change would be to extend how long AA3 is available for before it reverts back to AA1 if not used.

What that does is maintain its present passive utility (if you have it set to auto-fire, nothing changes), but let’s skilled players disable the auto-fire and have more control over the evade timing. Doing so would reduce your damage output while you’re sitting on AA3, but give you that added control over when you evade, which sounds like exactly the sort of low cost decision-making that makes for more interesting (and less passive) play.

It would also let you fire off another couple of skills without having to give up the evade, which I guess could even be an option with the auto-fire still turned on, as long as you’re good at timing your skill use.