Greatsword block - Why is this still a thing?

Greatsword block - Why is this still a thing?

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

We all have probably seen the Shiro reveal for Revenant now. So as you should be aware, The Revenant can block with his offhand sword, like every other class with offhand sword can. But unlike those, the Revenant can choose to not use the second skill when he blocks.

Now the Ranger still can’t choose to not use the second part of the Greatsword block, eventhough it roots the Ranger.

It is time that ANet adresses this already.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Duelist’s Preparation on the Rev OH sword has no secondary effect like Counterattack, which blocks all attacks for 3s (50% longer than revenant) and also attack back anyone in melee range for good damage and knock them back 300.

If you do not want the KB animation to happen, you have to get out of melee range, or use Crippling Throw before the animation begins.

Rev gets a 2nd skill on OH #4 that is like crippling throw, but immobilises 3 targets.

The animation could be a little more fluid, but the amount of people I have interrupted and crit for 5k+ with counterattack means I want it to stay as is really. I just love it, especially with intelligence sigil.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Duelist’s Preparation on the Rev OH sword has no secondary effect like Counterattack, which blocks all attacks for 3s (50% longer than revenant) and also attack back anyone in melee range for good damage and knock them back 300.

If you do not want the KB animation to happen, you have to get out of melee range, or use Crippling Throw before the animation begins.

Rev gets a 2nd skill on OH #4 that is like crippling throw, but immobilises 3 targets.

The animation could be a little more fluid, but the amount of people I have interrupted and crit for 5k+ with counterattack means I want it to stay as is really. I just love it, especially with intelligence sigil.

It is pretty hard to get out of melee range if you’re blocking and a Mesmer is using Phantasmal Berserker on you.

And your argumentation that the Revenant can block only half as long as the Ranger can is irrelevant when you look at the quantity of blocks the Revenant gets. The Ranger has exactly one block.

(edited by Wuselknusel.4082)

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Posted by: Quarktastic.1027

Quarktastic.1027

Duelist’s Preparation on the Rev OH sword has no secondary effect like Counterattack, which blocks all attacks for 3s (50% longer than revenant) and also attack back anyone in melee range for good damage and knock them back 300.

If you do not want the KB animation to happen, you have to get out of melee range, or use Crippling Throw before the animation begins.

Rev gets a 2nd skill on OH #4 that is like crippling throw, but immobilises 3 targets.

The animation could be a little more fluid, but the amount of people I have interrupted and crit for 5k+ with counterattack means I want it to stay as is really. I just love it, especially with intelligence sigil.

It is pretty hard to get out of melee range if you’re blocking and a Mesmer is using Phantasmal Berserker on you.

And your argumentation that the Revenant can block only half as long as the Ranger can is irrelevant when you look at the quantity of blocks the Revenant gets. The Ranger has exactly one block.

If you happen to be out of melee range, counterattack will block everything for the entire duration of the skill. Obviously, it’s not terribly useful against an intelligent opponent (they will bait your counterattack and down you while you’re rooted). But in PvE it’s amazing.

Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

And? Do you think I don’t know that? I have literally just responded with one example where being out of melee range isn’t possible.

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Posted by: Quarktastic.1027

Quarktastic.1027

And? Do you think I don’t know that? I have literally just responded with one example where being out of melee range isn’t possible.

I addressed that in my response.

It’s better than the revenant block in PvE.

Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

I don’t care if it’s better in PvE. You don’t die in PvE if your block goes off randomly.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

I recall another discussion based on this and I can only hope Anet goes back and changes the “block & counter” skills on other classes to function like the Revenant. Choosing when to use the counter attack portion on weapon skills is certainly better than having it automatically proc – unless reaction time and laziness is a factor :P

PET PRECISION & DPS TESTS -OUTDATED-
Will update once Path of Fire releases.

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Posted by: Ryan.9387

Ryan.9387

Just cancel when the animation starts.

Ranger | Elementalist

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

By blowing weaponswap cd or dodging? If I use a defensive mechanic I don’t want to use another one just because the first one fails.

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Posted by: Quarktastic.1027

Quarktastic.1027

I don’t care if it’s better in PvE. You don’t die in PvE if your block goes off randomly.

You and I must not be playing the same PvE.

Get out of the SW zerg and into some scale 50 fractals.

Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

And if you use your block defensively, do you stand in melee range to the enemy?

Just because it doesn’t bug in PvE doesn’t mean it’s fine. PvE rarely holds any challenge.

(edited by Wuselknusel.4082)

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Posted by: Quarktastic.1027

Quarktastic.1027

And if you use your block defensively, do you stand in melee range to the enemy?

The urban battleground is a good example.

Ascalonian warriors have extremely powerful gap closers, and are usually mixed in with archers and/or mages, who are perfectly capable of downing you in 2 hits with their autoattacks.

It’s especially fun to block an ascalonian mage’s firestorm only to get rushed by an ascalonian warrior and instadowned by the residual AoE. Also, the boss of that particular fractal is another example. If you attempt to block his fiery rush with counterattack, he will trigger the kick, evade it, and down you all at once.

Regardless, I don’t care if the counter portion of the skill gets altered, so long as the block duration and the cooldown remain the same.

Those armadillos would be a lot cooler if they looked more like real armadillos. mmm armadillos
-BnooMaGoo.5690

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Well, good that we sorted that out. Just that it doesn’t matter either way for this discussion. If the block bugs in PvE or not does not change the fact that it’s clunky and should have been changed by now.

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Posted by: Serraphin Storm.2369

Serraphin Storm.2369

Are we really trying to compare an elite weapon set with core. When comparing a class one should look at it as a whole not just one weapon or skill. While we do lack passive defense compare to other class, the rev isn’t to much better.

Just because the class next door gets a newer shiner skill doesn’t mean we need or deserver it.

Block is one of the reasons people use this weapon it wasn’t a problem before. They have a better one so we should get one like it too, isn’t remotely a good argument especially when we need so many other real things looked at like pet ai, pets damage scaling with gear, spirits and more passive defense (to compete with all the passive every other class have).

In order to properly understand the big picture,
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.

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Posted by: Wondrouswall.7169

Wondrouswall.7169

Such debacles over a suggestion to make the counterattack kick portion to be under the player’s control instead of happening automatically when within range. If anything, the Rev off-hand sword block → counter function of giving it to the user to decide when or whether to use it is a step in the right direction on Anet.

PET PRECISION & DPS TESTS -OUTDATED-
Will update once Path of Fire releases.

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Posted by: Vizardlorde.8243

Vizardlorde.8243

Duelist’s Preparation on the Rev OH sword has no secondary effect like Counterattack, which blocks all attacks for 3s (50% longer than revenant) and also attack back anyone in melee range for good damage and knock them back 300.

If you do not want the KB animation to happen, you have to get out of melee range, or use Crippling Throw before the animation begins.

Rev gets a 2nd skill on OH #4 that is like crippling throw, but immobilises 3 targets.

The animation could be a little more fluid, but the amount of people I have interrupted and crit for 5k+ with counterattack means I want it to stay as is really. I just love it, especially with intelligence sigil.

It is pretty hard to get out of melee range if you’re blocking and a Mesmer is using Phantasmal Berserker on you.

And your argumentation that the Revenant can block only half as long as the Ranger can is irrelevant when you look at the quantity of blocks the Revenant gets. The Ranger has exactly one block.

phantasmal berserker and #5 are the only blockable skills on the mesmer GS so GS block isnt gona help much against them.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Duelist’s Preparation on the Rev OH sword has no secondary effect like Counterattack, which blocks all attacks for 3s (50% longer than revenant) and also attack back anyone in melee range for good damage and knock them back 300.

If you do not want the KB animation to happen, you have to get out of melee range, or use Crippling Throw before the animation begins.

Rev gets a 2nd skill on OH #4 that is like crippling throw, but immobilises 3 targets.

The animation could be a little more fluid, but the amount of people I have interrupted and crit for 5k+ with counterattack means I want it to stay as is really. I just love it, especially with intelligence sigil.

It is pretty hard to get out of melee range if you’re blocking and a Mesmer is using Phantasmal Berserker on you.

And your argumentation that the Revenant can block only half as long as the Ranger can is irrelevant when you look at the quantity of blocks the Revenant gets. The Ranger has exactly one block.

You just have to play it smarter (Not saying you don’t already play smart). You can block infinite amount of attacks if you are not in melee range (even melee attacks) so you just have to move away at the same time as blocking, if you don’t want to trigger the kick. Or stow, or swap, or Crippling Throw or dodge or even F2 taunt, fear, immob or blind so they cannot attack you immediately.

Ranger and Revenant get the same amount of blocks from these skills. Infinite. Assuming they all happen during the block duration. For the Ranger, you also need to be out of melee range so the skill channels for the entire duration.

To me, that is fine as I like having the kick and can play around it. As I said, though, the animation could do with more fluidity, being able to move properly while it happens would be good, same goes for Hilt Bash too.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Are we really trying to compare an elite weapon set with core. When comparing a class one should look at it as a whole not just one weapon or skill. While we do lack passive defense compare to other class, the rev isn’t to much better.

Just because the class next door gets a newer shiner skill doesn’t mean we need or deserver it.

Block is one of the reasons people use this weapon it wasn’t a problem before. They have a better one so we should get one like it too, isn’t remotely a good argument especially when we need so many other real things looked at like pet ai, pets damage scaling with gear, spirits and more passive defense (to compete with all the passive every other class have).

First: Shiro is not the elite specialization of the Revenant. The Sword is not the weapon the elite specialization will add. No matter under which circumstances the Revenant happens to use the sword, the block is comparable to the block the Ranger has.

Second: Why shouldn’t I compare two skills that work exactly the same with one another? Especially if the block the Ranger has has more drawbacks than other skills of that kind.

Third: If you would go back and look through the old threads, you could very well find people complaining about this a long time ago. I can remember people suggesting this change in the Ranger CDI.

phantasmal berserker and #5 are the only blockable skills on the mesmer GS so GS block isnt gona help much against them.

The only attack that can’t be blocked is Mirror Blade.

You just have to play it smarter (Not saying you don’t already play smart). You can block infinite amount of attacks if you are not in melee range (even melee attacks) so you just have to move away at the same time as blocking, if you don’t want to trigger the kick. Or stow, or swap, or Crippling Throw or dodge or even F2 taunt, fear, immob or blind so they cannot attack you immediately.

Ranger and Revenant get the same amount of blocks from these skills. Infinite. Assuming they all happen during the block duration. For the Ranger, you also need to be out of melee range so the skill channels for the entire duration.

To me, that is fine as I like having the kick and can play around it. As I said, though, the animation could do with more fluidity, being able to move properly while it happens would be good, same goes for Hilt Bash too.

The Phantasmal Berserker spins into you and if you block when that happens, the kick will be triggered, since the Phantasmal Berserker is in melee range to you, eventhough the Mesmer isn’t.

I never said that I want to remove the kick. I said that I want to decide if I want to kick the attacker or not.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

…I never said that I want to remove the kick. I said that I want to decide if I want to kick the attacker or not.

How is that going to happen, mechanically? You want to remove Crippling Throw?

How is this skill any different to Riposte?

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Simple. Once you blocked one attack, the skill changes from Crippling Throw to Kick. You then have short time to use kick on the target you selected.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

So, I won’t be able to block an entire RF, getting 20s of regen from my Defender Runes, then use Crippling Throw on the Ranger before Maul? No thanks. So I won’t be able to avoid a mesmers entire burst by moving around while channeling Counterattack as the clones shatter around me? No thanks. So I won’t be able to run through 500 marks and projectile fire into a zerg while blocking everything and gaining regen for every block? No thanks. So I won’t be able to escape from a zerg chasing me down because I can only block one attack? No thanks.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Not to insult you, but are you that narrow minded? What I am presenting are mere thoughts. ArenaNet could easily only change the skill Crippling Throw to Kick if a melee attack has been blocked. You lose nothing but the time you need to hit the skill twice to activate Kick if possible, since it’s currently instant activation, while if changed, you had to activate Kick yourself. You gain the full duration block, no matter if melee or ranged attack has been blocked, and if ANet isn’t completely incapable, you could even block the melee attack of one enemy but use Kick on another.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

k I skimmed walls of text and here is my reply.

Its a sword not a shield. Be thankful it even blocks ranged attacks.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Of what use is a block if it’s not only not reliable, but can also backfire?
It is still a block, yes, but like the pet, just because it is working somewhat doesn’t make it good.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

Of what use is a block if it’s not only not reliable, but can also backfire?
It is still a block, yes, but like the pet, just because it is working somewhat doesn’t make it good.

a skill that can be countered is a good thing yes? If only more skills had better hard counters.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

It is not that the skill has a counter. The skill has no counter, it is just sloppy implemented which leaves room to exploit that implmentation. If ANet would want to have hardcounters in the game, they wouldn’t have given the Warrior his stances in the first place.

The Ranger is contantly playing against his own mechanics, may it be the sword autoattack, where you can’t react when leaping, may it be the new Healing Spring, which takes too long to arm to trigger if you just keep running, may it be the pet which is all around clunky and unresponsive, or may it be the greatsword block which roots you if the kick is triggered. All those things have something in common. First, they all have drawbacks ANet accepted to make their vision work, no matter the downside. Second, all those shortcomings are not intended counters but merely sloppy implementation. Some professions are also affected, like Mesmers and Necros have also problems with their AIs (and their shortcomings can also hardly be seen as intended counter). The Ranger just happens to be the profession who suffers under them all.

In a way, the mentioned skills or mechanics stand representative for the Ranger as a whole: A sloppy implementation of what could have been really cool.

(edited by Wuselknusel.4082)

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

stop flailing your arms, ranger greatsword is a great weapon. l2p

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

It is. It is just sloppy implemented.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

be thankful you arnt a gs Mesmer, their “maul” skill got rekt last update.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

It still has a lot of pressure. And as far as I know, they don’t get rooted in place without their doing.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

It still has a lot of pressure. And as far as I know, they don’t get rooted in place without their doing.

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Not to insult you, but are you that narrow minded? What I am presenting are mere thoughts. ArenaNet could easily only change the skill Crippling Throw to Kick if a melee attack has been blocked. You lose nothing but the time you need to hit the skill twice to activate Kick if possible, since it’s currently instant activation, while if changed, you had to activate Kick yourself. You gain the full duration block, no matter if melee or ranged attack has been blocked, and if ANet isn’t completely incapable, you could even block the melee attack of one enemy but use Kick on another.

Not narrow minded at all. You actually said after blocking one attack and didn’t specify ranged or melee and also did not specify the block would last for the duration. If that were the case, I agree with you. If a Melee attack is blocked, Crippling Throw becomes Kick and you can use that. Fine idea. Just make it also a 450 leap and call it Flying Kick. If it were changed to that, I would say Crippling Throw can just be deleted.

It is not that the skill has a counter. The skill has no counter, it is just sloppy implemented which leaves room to exploit that implementation…

See Shadow Shot. Hard counter to Counterattack. Which sucks.

Edit: actually, something like flying kick instead of Crippling Throw would be heaps better, just make the block last the duration and you have to use flying kick before the channel finishes. Best of both worlds.

(edited by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582)

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Not to insult you, but are you that narrow minded? What I am presenting are mere thoughts. ArenaNet could easily only change the skill Crippling Throw to Kick if a melee attack has been blocked. You lose nothing but the time you need to hit the skill twice to activate Kick if possible, since it’s currently instant activation, while if changed, you had to activate Kick yourself. You gain the full duration block, no matter if melee or ranged attack has been blocked, and if ANet isn’t completely incapable, you could even block the melee attack of one enemy but use Kick on another.

Not narrow minded at all. You actually said after blocking one attack and didn’t specify ranged or melee and also did not specify the block would last for the duration. If that were the case, I agree with you. If a Melee attack is blocked, Crippling Throw becomes Kick and you can use that. Fine idea. Just make it also a 450 leap and call it Flying Kick. If it were changed to that, I would say Crippling Throw can just be deleted.

It is not that the skill has a counter. The skill has no counter, it is just sloppy implemented which leaves room to exploit that implementation…

See Shadow Shot. Hard counter to Counterattack. Which sucks.

I just expected that one could get the idea himself, without me having to add that detail as clarification, that’s all. I’ll try to be more precise next time then.

For the hardcounter part, I didn’t mean to say that there are no skills that counter Counterattack, I’m merely saying that the root that occurs during the kick, in combination with the Ranger not being able to control the kick, is not a counter, as Justine is suggesting, but just sloppy design.

As for removing Crippling Throw, I’m not entirely sure about that, since I find myself using it often to close the gab to a running target without having to switch to the longbow.

(edited by Wuselknusel.4082)

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Posted by: Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582

I don’t think they would ever code Counterattack (or any skill for that matter) that once you activate it, it swaps to Crippling Throw, Channels blocks for 3s and IF it blocks a melee attack the skill swaps again to another different one that allows a melee attack that KBs.

They have enough trouble changing the code to add +150 stats to pets, which should really be as easy as data entry into a spreadsheet…

I would be willing to lose 450 range from Crippling Throw for it to become a 450 leap with the kick KB at the finish. Even make it a 600 leap. That would be so awesome actually, imo.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Well, if there is a time they could do it, it is now, when they are still making changes for HoT.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

It still has a lot of pressure. And as far as I know, they don’t get rooted in place without their doing.

Counterattack isnt a projectile blocker, its a single melee block skill. When you push it expect to get rooted. So yes if you push the button for the 4th skill on greatsword you are self-rooting, it is your doing.

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

There is no difference between blocking a ranged attack or a melee attack, and there certainly isn’t a differenciation between blocks and projectile blocks. The kick get triggered when the attacker happens to be in range, even if he is using projectile attacks.
If blocks in general wouldn’t be considered blocking projectiles aswell, why does the Warrior has a trait that turn all his blocks into reflects then?

Your argumentation just doesn’t make any sense. If it’s your opinion that the current block is fine, then I am ok with that. But please be not mistaken that the change I propose would not hinder your current playstyle. It would be merely a QoL change, one of many the Ranger desperately needs.

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Posted by: Justine.6351

Justine.6351

My suggestion is to remove blocking ranged attacks from skill. That way no one will ever try to exploit the rooting on the skill. Is that better?

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

Well, that can be your suggestion, I just doubt that it will find many supporters. My suggestion is to be able to control when or even if I want to use the kick. That way, the skill would be as effective against melee and ranged attacks. I assume that you suggest to remove the ability to block ranged attacks from all weapons who have a secondary effect then.

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Posted by: OGDeadHead.8326

OGDeadHead.8326

Leave this skill alone, tyvm.

Win10 pro | Xeon 5650 @ 4 GHz | R9 280x toxic | 24 Gig Ram | Process Lasso user

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Posted by: Wuselknusel.4082

Wuselknusel.4082

I sadly cannot stop to suggest this change I have proposed.