Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.
"Guard" Ranger shout
I use a regen bunker (condition damaging) build in pvp/WvW roaming with “Guard” and “Protect Me”, and my shouts are traited to give regen + swiftness. The cast time on guard CAN get a bit annoying if I’m being ganked and need the regen, but I have “Protect Me” as my back up for those situations. Overall I love my build and don’t have a real problem with the guard cast time but it WOULD be nice for it to be insta.
After successfully trying out a shout build on my ranger I kept wondering why the shout “Guard” has a cast time. Traditionally shouts have never had a cast time and no other shout in the game has a cast time. Rangers also have, arguably, the worst set of shouts of the 3 professions that use them (ranger, warrior, guardian). Perhaps someone can fill me in as to why this is the case?
B/c R/P’s were considered “too good” in GvG by people who only wanted to run WAR / Ele’s and couldn’t stand the idea of having to recruit decent counter Necros
(r/p = ranger/paragon)
That’s a good point about Shouts. Warrior Shouts have no cast time. I’m not sure how having a cast time on Ranger Shouts is done for balance?
When someone uses the word ‘Meta’, a kitten dies. Don’t do it.
I read on the balance changes thread that they’re gonna increase the cooldown of the Guard shout to 25s from it’s current 15s CD. The very least they could make it instant cast like all other shouts if they do this.
[WOLF] Howlerin || Seafarer’s Rest
“They say you are what you eat.
Which is funny ‘cause I don’t remember eating a f.ing legend”
“They say you are what you eat.
Which is funny ‘cause I don’t remember eating a f.ing legend”
I read on the balance changes thread that they’re gonna increase the cooldown of the Guard shout to 25s from it’s current 15s CD. The very least they could make it instant cast like all other shouts if they do this.
Those patchnotes are fake according to anet.
That said, this skill is clunky with the cast time. Get rid of it.
Is the skill clunky because the cast time? Isn’t that kind of a pointless argument because that means that every skill in the game that has a cast time is clunky….. Just Because it has a cast time?
Or is it because its classified as a shout, and because its a shout, its supposed to have a uber fast, insta cast time….seriously? It has a 15 second cooldown (12 traited), and it is very easy to get enough boon duration to stack on perma swiftness and especially perma regen with it, as well as perma protection for your pet, and if you have the right runes even remove a condition every 13 seconds.
I would say that the 1 second cast time is way more than enough of a trade off, clunky casting animation and all.
Is the skill clunky because the cast time? Isn’t that kind of a pointless argument because that means that every skill in the game that has a cast time is clunky….. Just Because it has a cast time?
Or is it because its classified as a shout, and because its a shout, its supposed to have a uber fast, insta cast time….seriously? It has a 15 second cooldown (12 traited), and it is very easy to get enough boon duration to stack on perma swiftness and especially perma regen with it, as well as perma protection for your pet, and if you have the right runes even remove a condition every 13 seconds.
I would say that the 1 second cast time is way more than enough of a trade off, clunky casting animation and all.
It’s clunky, the shouts use doesn’t warrant a cast time, and if ANY shout warranted a cast time it would be “Fear Me!” and “Save Yourself!” not a shout that just repositions your pet, granting it stealth and protection, i mean kitten, how does THAT need a cast time but an AoE 3s Fear, or AoE condi purge + give caster every boon in the game NOT?
Also, If Guard didn’t have a cast time it’d be an extremely useful skill to have because every 15s you could essentially reposition your pet, make it tankier, and even use it in synergy with your pets F2, it would increase in usefulness significantly where as atm if you want to keep up “perma regen and swiftness” with this shout you’re using 1s for what is a very minimal effect.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
(edited by Durzlla.6295)
Is the skill clunky because the cast time? Isn’t that kind of a pointless argument because that means that every skill in the game that has a cast time is clunky….. Just Because it has a cast time?
Or is it because its classified as a shout, and because its a shout, its supposed to have a uber fast, insta cast time….seriously? It has a 15 second cooldown (12 traited), and it is very easy to get enough boon duration to stack on perma swiftness and especially perma regen with it, as well as perma protection for your pet, and if you have the right runes even remove a condition every 13 seconds.
I would say that the 1 second cast time is way more than enough of a trade off, clunky casting animation and all.
It’s clunky, the shouts use doesn’t warrant a cast time, and if ANY shout warranted a cast time it would be “Fear Me!” and “Save Yourself!” not a shout that just repositions your pet, granting it stealth and protection, i mean kitten, how does THAT need a cast time but an AoE 3s Fear, or AoE condi purge + give caster every boon in the game NOT?
Also, If Guard didn’t have a cast time it’d be an extremely useful skill to have because every 15s you could essentially reposition your pet, make it tankier, and even use it in synergy with your pets F2, it would increase in usefulness significantly where as atm if you want to keep up “perma regen and swiftness” with this shout you’re using 1s for what is a very minimal effect.
Sure, lets give “Fear me” a Cast time, but because of the increased risk, lets reduce the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
Lets remove the cast time from Guard, but because of the reduced risk, lets Double the cooldown from 15 to 30 seconds.
risk vs. reward, its a very simple concept, and almost everything in GW2’s combat system revolves around it.
Yeah, it’s clunky. But more importantly, it’s useless. You have to trait it on order to make it worthwhile, which is still debatable. It might have been acceptable before the great pet nerf of 2013, but what’s the point of giving pets protection and stealth if they don’t do damage?
Maguuma [PYRO]
Kal Snow – Norn Guardian
Kal Snow – Norn Guardian
Or is it because its classified as a shout, and because its a shout, its supposed to have a uber fast, insta cast time….seriously?
Shouts don’t just have instant cast time. They can be used while you are channeling other skills. I think you can even use them while stunned/knocked down. Guard is the only shout where you can’t do this.
As it currently stands, Guard is a shout in name only. For all intents and purposes, it’s a regular utility skill, not a shout. The only advantage gained by it being a shout is that you can reduce its cooldown with a trait to reduce shout cooldowns.
It has a 15 second cooldown (12 traited), and it is very easy to get enough boon duration to stack on perma swiftness and especially perma regen with it, as well as perma protection for your pet, and if you have the right runes even remove a condition every 13 seconds.
True, but you’re incorrectly attributing those benefits to the skill. They come from picking a grandmaster trait. The comparison isn’t Guard vs another skill; it’s traited Guard vs. another skill + a 10 point trait + a GM trait.
The pet getting permanent protection is a non-issue because it already gains permanent protection. 1 sec cast time + 12 sec cooldown = 13 sec cycle time. 30 points in NM to get the GM trait gives +30% boon duration, increasing the protection’s duration from 10 sec to 13 sec. So removing the cast time wouldn’t change this appreciably (it’ll eliminate a fraction of a second where the pet has no protection due to human reaction time).
Likewise the condition removal comes from a set of Soldier runes, not the skill. Yes the cooldown is lower, but if you look at the average cycle time for shout skills, warriors can remove conditions more often with that rune than rangers, albeit not with a single shout. Given the poor state of ranger active condition removal, I’d only consider this a viable argument if they put active condition removal on more ranger skills.
Sure, lets give “Fear me” a Cast time, but because of the increased risk, lets reduce the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
Lets remove the cast time from Guard, but because of the reduced risk, lets Double the cooldown from 15 to 30 seconds.
risk vs. reward, its a very simple concept, and almost everything in GW2’s combat system revolves around it.
I’m not sure what sort of comparison you’re trying to make. Fear Me is an instant get-out-of-death skill. Someone is about to down you, you use Fear Me, and you live.
Guard does nothing like that. It repositions your pet, gives it stealth and protection. I’m not exactly seeing the decreased risk you’re talking about if it were made instant cast.
The swiftness and regen come from a GM trait. Any imbalances for those two attributes should be addressed via modifying the trait, not increasing the cooldown on Guard.
Or is it because its classified as a shout, and because its a shout, its supposed to have a uber fast, insta cast time….seriously?
Shouts don’t just have instant cast time. They can be used while you are channeling other skills. I think you can even use them while stunned/knocked down. Guard is the only shout where you can’t do this.
As it currently stands, Guard is a shout in name only. For all intents and purposes, it’s a regular utility skill, not a shout. The only advantage gained by it being a shout is that you can reduce its cooldown with a trait to reduce shout cooldowns.
It has a 15 second cooldown (12 traited), and it is very easy to get enough boon duration to stack on perma swiftness and especially perma regen with it, as well as perma protection for your pet, and if you have the right runes even remove a condition every 13 seconds.
True, but you’re incorrectly attributing those benefits to the skill. They come from picking a grandmaster trait. The comparison isn’t Guard vs another skill; it’s traited Guard vs. another skill + a 10 point trait + a GM trait.
The pet getting permanent protection is a non-issue because it already gains permanent protection. 1 sec cast time + 12 sec cooldown = 13 sec cycle time. 30 points in NM to get the GM trait gives +30% boon duration, increasing the protection’s duration from 10 sec to 13 sec. So removing the cast time wouldn’t change this appreciably (it’ll eliminate a fraction of a second where the pet has no protection due to human reaction time).
Likewise the condition removal comes from a set of Soldier runes, not the skill. Yes the cooldown is lower, but if you look at the average cycle time for shout skills, warriors can remove conditions more often with that rune than rangers, albeit not with a single shout. Given the poor state of ranger active condition removal, I’d only consider this a viable argument if they put active condition removal on more ranger skills.
Sure, lets give “Fear me” a Cast time, but because of the increased risk, lets reduce the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
Lets remove the cast time from Guard, but because of the reduced risk, lets Double the cooldown from 15 to 30 seconds.
risk vs. reward, its a very simple concept, and almost everything in GW2’s combat system revolves around it.
I’m not sure what sort of comparison you’re trying to make. Fear Me is an instant get-out-of-death skill. Someone is about to down you, you use Fear Me, and you live.
Guard does nothing like that. It repositions your pet, gives it stealth and protection. I’m not exactly seeing the decreased risk you’re talking about if it were made instant cast.
The swiftness and regen come from a GM trait. Any imbalances for those two attributes should be addressed via modifying the trait, not increasing the cooldown on Guard.
There are two fundamental problems that you and many others always run into when talking about Guard…
1) that you always miss the 1 second where the Ranger has to cast “Guard”. That is a second where the Ranger is not dealing damage, and that is a second where the Ranger is open for attack. The Entire shout was designed with a low cooldown, on the condition that the 1 second of risk is built in.
Being able to just press guard every 12 seconds means your pet can potentially always has protection (not to mention 10 seconds of stealth stealth, and you could potentially have free perma regen and swiftness, and remove a condition), and there is never an opening for an enemy or enemy player to stop that from happening if the cast time is removed. Keep in mind that is every 12 seconds. Where in your head does that make sense? Think for two seconds how a change to guard will affect the entire game, not just Ranger pets.
(The mentioned “Fear Me” is a get-out-of-jail-free card, but its also on a 60 second cooldown (as is our get-out-of-jail-free card, Protect me). The risk there, is that you can only use it every 60 seconds(obviously less if traited), so, if you waste it, you waste it. Guard does not have that limitation. Keep that in mind too.)
2) whether you like it or not, and whether it works or not, pets were designed to be an integrated part of the class. So, unless you can name me another skill that grants 10 seconds of protection and 10 seconds of stealth, with a 15 second cooldown, your argument for buffing Guard is invalid.
Or is it because its classified as a shout, and because its a shout, its supposed to have a uber fast, insta cast time….seriously?
Shouts don’t just have instant cast time. They can be used while you are channeling other skills. I think you can even use them while stunned/knocked down. Guard is the only shout where you can’t do this.
As it currently stands, Guard is a shout in name only. For all intents and purposes, it’s a regular utility skill, not a shout. The only advantage gained by it being a shout is that you can reduce its cooldown with a trait to reduce shout cooldowns.
It has a 15 second cooldown (12 traited), and it is very easy to get enough boon duration to stack on perma swiftness and especially perma regen with it, as well as perma protection for your pet, and if you have the right runes even remove a condition every 13 seconds.
True, but you’re incorrectly attributing those benefits to the skill. They come from picking a grandmaster trait. The comparison isn’t Guard vs another skill; it’s traited Guard vs. another skill + a 10 point trait + a GM trait.
The pet getting permanent protection is a non-issue because it already gains permanent protection. 1 sec cast time + 12 sec cooldown = 13 sec cycle time. 30 points in NM to get the GM trait gives +30% boon duration, increasing the protection’s duration from 10 sec to 13 sec. So removing the cast time wouldn’t change this appreciably (it’ll eliminate a fraction of a second where the pet has no protection due to human reaction time).
Likewise the condition removal comes from a set of Soldier runes, not the skill. Yes the cooldown is lower, but if you look at the average cycle time for shout skills, warriors can remove conditions more often with that rune than rangers, albeit not with a single shout. Given the poor state of ranger active condition removal, I’d only consider this a viable argument if they put active condition removal on more ranger skills.
Sure, lets give “Fear me” a Cast time, but because of the increased risk, lets reduce the cooldown from 60 seconds to 30 seconds.
Lets remove the cast time from Guard, but because of the reduced risk, lets Double the cooldown from 15 to 30 seconds.
risk vs. reward, its a very simple concept, and almost everything in GW2’s combat system revolves around it.
I’m not sure what sort of comparison you’re trying to make. Fear Me is an instant get-out-of-death skill. Someone is about to down you, you use Fear Me, and you live.
Guard does nothing like that. It repositions your pet, gives it stealth and protection. I’m not exactly seeing the decreased risk you’re talking about if it were made instant cast.
The swiftness and regen come from a GM trait. Any imbalances for those two attributes should be addressed via modifying the trait, not increasing the cooldown on Guard.
There are two fundamental problems that you and many others always run into when talking about Guard…
1) that you always miss the 1 second where the Ranger has to cast “Guard”. That is a second where the Ranger is not dealing damage, and that is a second where the Ranger is open for attack. The Entire shout was designed with a low cooldown, on the condition that the 1 second of risk is built in.
Being able to just press guard every 12 seconds means your pet can potentially always has protection (not to mention 10 seconds of stealth stealth, and you could potentially have free perma regen and swiftness, and remove a condition), and there is never an opening for an enemy or enemy player to stop that from happening if the cast time is removed. Keep in mind that is every 12 seconds. Where in your head does that make sense? Think for two seconds how a change to guard will affect the entire game, not just Ranger pets.
(The mentioned “Fear Me” is a get-out-of-jail-free card, but its also on a 60 second cooldown (as is our get-out-of-jail-free card, Protect me). The risk there, is that you can only use it every 60 seconds(obviously less if traited), so, if you waste it, you waste it. Guard does not have that limitation. Keep that in mind too.)
2) whether you like it or not, and whether it works or not, pets were designed to be an integrated part of the class. So, unless you can name me another skill that grants 10 seconds of protection and 10 seconds of stealth, with a 15 second cooldown, your argument for buffing Guard is invalid.
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
When someone uses the word ‘Meta’, a kitten dies. Don’t do it.
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
(edited by Chrispy.5641)
10s of stealth and 10s of prot on a pet they don’t kittening attack to begin with because there’s almost no point to (especially if the build is running guard to begin with), and god knows stealth is soooooo useful for pets… you know because they have so many big burst moves…. and god knows they have so much survivability from stealth…
Please tell me what the kitten the reward is for using Guard? ALL IT DOES IS REPOSITION THE PET, that is ALL you use it for in most builds. Sure there’s that ONE build that uses it for the regen + swiftness, but we’re kittening rangers, if we want regen and swiftness we can get that easily. Those are the 2 boons we have an absolute HUGE amount of access to, along with fury.
I would rather have Guard up every 20s, 16 with trait, and be able to use it while i’m actually casting my skills, like rapid fire, or barrage, or maul, or ANYTHING ELSE than the clunky as kitten and borderline useless (i say borderline because with the trait it’s decent, barely) utility it is now.
You know what? If they made Guard a 60s CD but made it actually useful, that’d be good too, anything to make it not absolute kitten.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
(edited by Durzlla.6295)
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
I don’t think it is about clunky it is about mechanics and with the exception of Guard all shouts have the same activation time, the cool down is not a factor here.
If risk vs reward was the only case why is it a skill like For Great Justice exists as an instant cast that follows the shout rule, while the ranger with a jungle stalker has mighty roar with a stupidly long cast time and lower up time of buff.
Is is just best that we infer now that any and all ranger options must be exception to mechanics and inferior to non-ranger options.
Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.
Guard is being used as a boon trigger most of the time, nut I see it’s low CD to be there to allow to save the pet before it stupidly dies staying in AOE, when pet swap is on CD.
It can also be used so that the pet do not take the aggro in situations where ranger soes not want it to take it.
The one second cast time is, imho, a good balance between the main purpose of the skill (an other pet command) and the boons it allows to get (being a low CD shout)
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
lol, yes, like the argument that the pet having stealth and protection is so powerful that it warrants a nerf to get rid of the cast time? Will we suddenly become OP if it’s an instant? Will that 1 less second of casting catapult the regen-tank to god-like status? Will the pet become too OP? Will all the non-existent people who kill the pet first rage quit forever because it has 1 second less to wait for protection and stealth?
There needs to be a real, clear consequence to buffing it with no counter, not just some vague claim that it’s “already good”.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
May just be the idea of for ranger to get a positive change a disproportionate number of negative changes must be made or let’s call it the NERFbuffNERF sandwich.
Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
lol, yes, like the argument that the pet having stealth and protection is so powerful that it warrants a nerf to get rid of the cast time? Will we suddenly become OP if it’s an instant? Will that 1 less second of casting catapult the regen-tank to god-like status? Will the pet become too OP? Will all the non-existent people who kill the pet first rage quit forever because it has 1 second less to wait for protection and stealth?
There needs to be a real, clear consequence to buffing it with no counter, not just some vague claim that it’s “already good”.
The problem you need to look at is, what if all skills were suddenly instant?
(example)Hey, I want Heal as One to be instant cast. Don’t mind that I can stack that healing to over 10,000 using several methods. Its not like giving you a telegraph that I’m about to use a massive heal skill means anything. Its not going to suddenly make me more powerful (despite the extremely high healing I get for no risk at all).
There are two fundamental problems that you and many others always run into when talking about Guard…
1) that you always miss the 1 second where the Ranger has to cast “Guard”.
Not sure why you think that. I mentioned it in what I wrote.
That is a second where the Ranger is not dealing damage, and that is a second where the Ranger is open for attack. The Entire shout was designed with a low cooldown, on the condition that the 1 second of risk is built in.
I agree it’s a second where the ranger is not dealing damage. What I don’t understand is why you think the 1 second cast time increases risk? It’s not like Barrage where you must stand in one spot while casting. You can move around, you can dodge, you can interrupt it with a different skill. Your defensive capabilities are completely unhindered by it having a cast time. I don’t understand your basis for claiming it increases risk.
All the cast time does is slightly lower DPS. But since many other shouts increase DPS, removing the cast time wouldn’t seem to be an issue.
Being able to just press guard every 12 seconds means your pet can potentially always has protection
As I already explained, the pet already pretty much always has protection when I run this build. The cast time + cooldown is 13 seconds. The 30 NM you need to pick the GM trait gives +30% boon duration, which extends the 10 second duration to 13 seconds.
Assuming the stealth isn’t affected by boon duration, the pet is stealthed for 10/12 sec instead of 10/13 sec. That is, it’s in stealth 83% of the time instead of 77% of the time. That seems like a trivial difference.
and you could potentially have free perma regen and swiftness, and remove a condition),
I already have those things with the cast time when I run this build (well, not the condition removal since I don’t run a PVT build). You don’t even need extra boon duration. Just use warhorn 5 every chance you get and pick the NM 3 trait to extend regen duration, and you have both perma-regen and swiftness.
and there is never an opening for an enemy or enemy player to stop that from happening if the cast time is removed.
I’m running this build for the Lion’s Arch invasion event. I have perma-regen and perma-swiftness despite it being interrupted, me having to dodge, me having to delay reapplying Guard to prioritize other skills. The points you are bringing up simply do not make a difference in real gameplay. Removing the cast time from Guard won’t increase the benefit you derive from the skill as you claim, because the benefit is already max (permanent).
What it would change is make the skill not so clunky to use. When there’s a lot of people on my screen and a lot of action going on and my game lags, the skill frequently doesn’t fire or takes 2-3 sec to fire. When I do try to use the skill while moving, I have to try to predict ahead where I or my group will be in 1 second. I used it today for the crab toss during Guild Missions, to try to keep swiftness and regen on the carrier. It’s a lot harder to use because the 1 sec cast time is longer than other similar AOE buffs. If the skill lags, it’s even worse.
Keep in mind that is every 12 seconds. Where in your head does that make sense? Think for two seconds how a change to guard will affect the entire game, not just Ranger pets.
Fine, we can do it your way. Remove the cast time, but increase the cooldown to 16 seconds. That’ll put the cooldown at 12.75 or 13 sec when traited.
(The mentioned “Fear Me” is a get-out-of-jail-free card, but its also on a 60 second cooldown (as is our get-out-of-jail-free card, Protect me). The risk there, is that you can only use it every 60 seconds(obviously less if traited), so, if you waste it, you waste it. Guard does not have that limitation. Keep that in mind too.)
My point is, how are those things even comparable? Guard does not have that limitation because it is not a get-out-of-death-free card. You propose is to treat Guard as a get-out-of-death-free card when it is not?
2) whether you like it or not, and whether it works or not, pets were designed to be an integrated part of the class. So, unless you can name me another skill that grants 10 seconds of protection and 10 seconds of stealth, with a 15 second cooldown, your argument for buffing Guard is invalid.
Well of course there isn’t another skill which grants those things – because ranger is the only class in the game where the pet is designed to be integral. Guard is the skill which grants protection and stealth to the pet. There is no other such skill because it would be redundant.
(edited by Solandri.9640)
The ranger shouts are all very lackluster. The offer no where the utility of Guardian shouts, so comparison of risk v reward is a bit off—it would be a good way of thinking if the shouts were reasonably balanced in their effects.
What “Guard” offers is really weak compared to other classes shouts. Essentially it replaces a signet (for speed). It does provide perma regen, but there are other ways of getting that. It offers terrible group utility because swiftness and regen are relatively weak and easy to come by buffs AND because the range of the shout is so short (compared to guardian shouts) that you rarely hit all of your party members (except in sPvP).
Shout absolutely should be insta-cast. I could see raising the CD to 20 seconds but increasing the range to 900 or 1200. Then with a trait you are at 16, and with the right traits and runes you still can have perma swiftness and regen.
And on a somewhat tangential note: the ranger is a lesson in frustration and masochism. “Essential” traits and utilities can disable our class mechanic (EB and active SOR) as can some useful utilities (Protect Me). Our class mechanic is unreliable (F2) and is completely unviable as a build theme—impossible to have our pets do our damage for us (although the mesmer can do this). Anyone quibbling over request to make shout function like every other shout in the game isn’t doing our class any favors.
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
lol, yes, like the argument that the pet having stealth and protection is so powerful that it warrants a nerf to get rid of the cast time? Will we suddenly become OP if it’s an instant? Will that 1 less second of casting catapult the regen-tank to god-like status? Will the pet become too OP? Will all the non-existent people who kill the pet first rage quit forever because it has 1 second less to wait for protection and stealth?
There needs to be a real, clear consequence to buffing it with no counter, not just some vague claim that it’s “already good”.
The problem you need to look at is, what if all skills were suddenly instant?
(example)Hey, I want Heal as One to be instant cast. Don’t mind that I can stack that healing to over 10,000 using several methods. Its not like giving you a telegraph that I’m about to use a massive heal skill means anything. Its not going to suddenly make me more powerful (despite the extremely high healing I get for no risk at all).
This argument is so bad I think it’s giving the entire forum community cancer…
We are asking for a skill, which gives stealth and protection TO A SINGLE, NON PLAYER CHARACTER, to be instant instead of a 1s cast time, and you think that it’d be the same as making a HEALING SKILL have no cast time? Seriously? Do you not realize how poor of a comparison that is?
Whelp, Fear Me! Is an instant cast, therefore Kill Shot should be too, is essentially the logic you’re using.
Guard is a SHOUT shouts are trademarked to “have no cast time” Therefore guard is an anomaly, Guard is also THE lowest CD, and THE worst shout in the game since the only thing it brings only benefits the pet, and they are two things that are very lack luster.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
lol, yes, like the argument that the pet having stealth and protection is so powerful that it warrants a nerf to get rid of the cast time? Will we suddenly become OP if it’s an instant? Will that 1 less second of casting catapult the regen-tank to god-like status? Will the pet become too OP? Will all the non-existent people who kill the pet first rage quit forever because it has 1 second less to wait for protection and stealth?
There needs to be a real, clear consequence to buffing it with no counter, not just some vague claim that it’s “already good”.
The problem you need to look at is, what if all skills were suddenly instant?
(example)Hey, I want Heal as One to be instant cast. Don’t mind that I can stack that healing to over 10,000 using several methods. Its not like giving you a telegraph that I’m about to use a massive heal skill means anything. Its not going to suddenly make me more powerful (despite the extremely high healing I get for no risk at all).
one of you’re previous posts you highlighted something about “bad opinion and bad argument”…. well this is without a doubt a FACT… that example you just used with heal as one was laughably bad.. Please, try again.
We are specifically TALKING ABOUT SHOUTS. its a very specific skill and its very limited….Why on earth would you believe that this is just infact “another skill” and what if all skills were “insta-cast”… what on earth kind of logic is this????
all skills are different for every class… they all have different utilities…some are conjure weapons, some are kits, some are shouts, some are traps… you somehow generalized them as ONE skill? what?
absolute fail logic there man….
Thanks for that. It helps all of us to understand that our opinions are “invalid”
Glad I could help! Maybe next time, you can come up with a better argument than “Its clunky!”, becuase by that logic, every skill in the game with a cast time is "clunky’
Also, bad opinions, and bad arguments are two totally different things. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how good or bad. But, if your argument sucks, I am going to say something!
lol, yes, like the argument that the pet having stealth and protection is so powerful that it warrants a nerf to get rid of the cast time? Will we suddenly become OP if it’s an instant? Will that 1 less second of casting catapult the regen-tank to god-like status? Will the pet become too OP? Will all the non-existent people who kill the pet first rage quit forever because it has 1 second less to wait for protection and stealth?
There needs to be a real, clear consequence to buffing it with no counter, not just some vague claim that it’s “already good”.
The problem you need to look at is, what if all skills were suddenly instant?
(example)Hey, I want Heal as One to be instant cast. Don’t mind that I can stack that healing to over 10,000 using several methods. Its not like giving you a telegraph that I’m about to use a massive heal skill means anything. Its not going to suddenly make me more powerful (despite the extremely high healing I get for no risk at all).
No one mentioned Heal as One or any other healing skills. This is entirely about shouts and the one that doesn’t conform to the norm for the skill type. If you are just going to spout pointless straw men then there’s no real discussion going on.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
You people are silly. You don’t even realize your arguments have been proven invalid.
When someone uses the word ‘Meta’, a kitten dies. Don’t do it.
It has a cast time to make shout builds non-viable.
No idea why, really.
If it had none and provided some utility or removed a condition, we’d provide a great alternative to warriors/guardians shout builds…
Although the cast time can be a bit of a pain, if traited/rune-d properly, you can stack swiftness/regeneration pretty much indefinitely with this utility… It’ll keep your pet alive longer and if you cast it at the end of the 12 seconds (traited) every time your regeneration will just keep stacking, and stacking, and stacking. So I wouldn’t say it needs a fix… If anything I feel sorry for the people who don’t know how to interrupt me when I’m casting it because every time I do I’m just going to be harder to kill.
Once again, this is a matter of people assuming Ranger and their skills are useless because they’re too one dimensional to put effort in to understanding there’s more to the profession than stand here and pew pew while pet tanks.
Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma
@SpellOfIniquity…
Many people just plain refuse to take traits into account when looking at how and why skills are balanced.
@Everyone…
The other problem is that there is a general misguided sense of what a skill type is, and isn’t supposed to be. For example, a shout is supposed to be instant because all the other shouts are instant. Traps can only be triggered by enemies, so Healing Spring can not be classified as a Trap (a suggestion I made in a different thread was to make healing spring a atrap so it would benefit from trap traits), etc.
Well, by that misguided logic, lets change the Spirit of Nature, so its passive effect can only work once every 10 seconds, and only have a 35% chance to work, instead of working 100% of the time every second. It is a spirit after all, so it should work the same as the other spirits.
complain to me all you want that this thread is only about shouts. Your inability to understand how or why skills are balanced in the way they are is the true cancer that is spreading through the Ranger forums.
You people are silly. You don’t even realize your arguments have been proven invalid.
FINALLY! Someone gets it! (this comment has 10% more sarcasm than the quote its replying to!)
(edited by Chrispy.5641)
Well traps aren’t classified as traps because they trigger when an enemy walks over them, it’s just “they’re triggered when a viable target walks over them” and healing spring targeting allies would trigger as soon as you cast it at your feet, just like it did as a trap in GW1, if it were thrown I doubt it’d trigger the spring unless an ally triggered it though.
Spirits aren’t classified as having a % chance, they’re classified as being a summoned creature that buffs allies, which can be destroyed to end their effect early.
The way you’re describing skills would be like me saying “shouts buff allies, therefore Fear Me! And On My Mark! And Sick’Em need to be changed.”
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
@Everyone…
The other problem is that there is a general misguided sense of what a skill type is, and isn’t supposed to be. For example, a shout is supposed to be instant because all the other shouts are instant.
sigh A shout is supposed to be instant because it’s something you shout while you’re fighting or doing other stuff. That’s why all the shout skills have a voiced audio track. That’s why all the shout skills (except Guard) are instant cast. That’s why all the shout skills (except Guard) can be used while activating other skills (because shouting doesn’t interfere with other actions).
At a meta-game level, the skills do break down into categories by how they function. One of the things that attracted me to GW1 was how clever Anet was at coming up with different functional mechanics (shouts, preparations, stances, signets, glyphs, etc), while disposing of redundant ones (e.g. buffs diminshed energy regen rate, instead of costing mana – mathematically they are the same thing, just the latter is more difficult to quantify conceptually).
A game designer absolutely does think about what category they should put a skill into and what features that entails or precludes. That you’re dismissing this entirely is a big indication of how out of touch your ideas about skill design and classification are. You don’t just randomly slap together a bunch of features and declare it to be a skill.
Traps can only be triggered by enemies, so Healing Spring can not be classified as a Trap (a suggestion I made in a different thread was to make healing spring a atrap so it would benefit from trap traits), etc.
In a broader metagame context, that could make sense. In GW2 it doesn’t work though because #6 heal skills cannot have their cooldown reduced.
Again, the overriding goal here is balance between the classes. It would be unfair for rangers to be able to reduce the cooldown on their #6 Healing Spring with a trait, when other classes cannot. Just like it’s unfair for rangers to have a 1 sec cast time on a shout when other classes do not.
Well, by that misguided logic, lets change the Spirit of Nature, so its passive effect can only work once every 10 seconds, and only have a 35% chance to work, instead of working 100% of the time every second. It is a spirit after all, so it should work the same as the other spirits.
If SoN weren’t an elite, you might have a point. The elite skills all have better effects than their regular skill types. That’s kinda the whole point of being an elite skill. Battle Standard grants three buffs instead of two. Summoned Greatsword also damages nearby enemies. Basilisk Venom CCs the target.
complain to me all you want that this thread is only about shouts. Your inability to understand how or why skills are balanced in the way they are is the true cancer that is spreading through the Ranger forums.
I actually agree with a lot of your other posts. But your comments on skill balance for Guard are just completely off base. You come up non-sequitor reasoning or bring up issues which in practice don’t matter because they won’t change how the skill is actually used.
@Solandri, actually quite a few healing skills can have their CDs reduced, all signet heals can, Glyph of healing can, Engis bandaid can (F1 with med kit) as can their elixir, etc.
The only prof where NO heal can have a reduced CD is ranger and that is purely because none of our heals have a type, other than water spirit which has no CD reduction behind it (although it has several other very nice benefits)
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
I take it Chrispy compared “Guard!” to Heal as One due to the Nature’s Voice trait granting Regen… but even then it’s a bit embarrassing to defend the design of a skill that garners little to no group utility considering Regen and Swiftness are some of the least coveted boons in the game that are, nearly, granted in such an arbitrary manner from professions like Elementalists and Guardians.
Bottomline is that Ranger shouts, collectively, need to have some group utility without investing 30 trait points. Like every other class with Shouts.
Ranger / Revenant – Crystal Desert
@Solandri, actually quite a few healing skills can have their CDs reduced, all signet heals can, Glyph of healing can, Engis bandaid can (F1 with med kit) as can their elixir, etc.
The only prof where NO heal can have a reduced CD is ranger and that is purely because none of our heals have a type, other than water spirit which has no CD reduction behind it (although it has several other very nice benefits)
Thanks for the correction. I guess that makes another thing unfairly tilted against ranger.
Did you consider that Guard has a delay because it has targeting. All other shouts are simply that shouts. The character says a command makes a noise whatever and the effect happens.
Guard gives the pet a verbal command but the player must indicate where he wants the pet to guard with a physical movement (postioning the cursor) like pointing to the location.
This is why guard isn’t instant.
In order to properly understand the big picture,
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.
(edited by Serraphin Storm.2369)
@SpellOfIniquity…
Many people just plain refuse to take traits into account when looking at how and why skills are balanced.@Everyone…
The other problem is that there is a general misguided sense of what a skill type is, and isn’t supposed to be. For example, a shout is supposed to be instant because all the other shouts are instant. Traps can only be triggered by enemies, so Healing Spring can not be classified as a Trap (a suggestion I made in a different thread was to make healing spring a atrap so it would benefit from trap traits), etc.Well, by that misguided logic, lets change the Spirit of Nature, so its passive effect can only work once every 10 seconds, and only have a 35% chance to work, instead of working 100% of the time every second. It is a spirit after all, so it should work the same as the other spirits.
complain to me all you want that this thread is only about shouts. Your inability to understand how or why skills are balanced in the way they are is the true cancer that is spreading through the Ranger forums.
You people are silly. You don’t even realize your arguments have been proven invalid.
FINALLY! Someone gets it! (this comment has 10% more sarcasm than the quote its replying to!)
Quite the stupid post there… Other classes have low cooldown shouts with NO cast time. Why can’t we ?
Did you consider that Guard has a delay because it has targeting. All other shouts are simply that shouts. The character says a command makes a noise whatever and the effect happens.
Guard gives the pet a verbal command but the player must indicate where he wants the pet to guard with a physical movement (postioning the cursor) like pointing to the location.
This is why guard isn’t instant.
The pets die when we do and we can give every other command without any sort of lag. I think it’s safe to say we are bound at the soul or at least mentally. Having to manually point where we want them to stand is kind of silly.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
Well traps aren’t classified as traps because they trigger when an enemy walks over them, it’s just “they’re triggered when a viable target walks over them” and healing spring targeting allies would trigger as soon as you cast it at your feet, just like it did as a trap in GW1, if it were thrown I doubt it’d trigger the spring unless an ally triggered it though.
Can you give me a quote and source on that viable target thing?
I take it Chrispy compared “Guard!” to Heal as One due to the Nature’s Voice trait granting Regen… but even then it’s a bit embarrassing to defend the design of a skill that garners little to no group utility considering Regen and Swiftness are some of the least coveted boons in the game that are, nearly, granted in such an arbitrary manner from professions like Elementalists and Guardians.
Bottomline is that Ranger shouts, collectively, need to have some group utility without investing 30 trait points. Like every other class with Shouts.
Nope. I compared Guard to Heal as One because of how Heal as One works compared to our other heal skills. HaO gives us a massive spike in healing, but the activation time is 1 1/4 seconds, a little longer than our other heal skills. Now, why do you think that is? If the activation time was brought in line with our other heals skills, isn’t it reasonable to either nerf the healing the skill gives, or increase the cooldown?
Quite the stupid post there… Other classes have low cooldown shouts with NO cast time. Why can’t we ?
The lowest cooldown shout that Guardians and Warriors have access to has a cooldown of 25 seconds (20 traited). That is 66% longer of a cooldown than Guard has, and all we have to do with Guard is spend 1 second casting it.
Come on! Can’t any of you give me a better argument other than “Its silly that its like that!!!”
That the ranger shouts were (probably) not originally designed as shouts, but as the Pet Skill category and sometime during the development they shift them to shouts without any adaptation at all.
Pets have been hidden due to rising Player complaints.
Guard should be as is, except guard me while moving, no ground target, and still granting the stealth reveal. Sitting in one place in this game is useless unless holding a point.
!(wired)?(coffee++):(wired);
Those patchnotes are fake according to anet.
That said, this skill is clunky with the cast time. Get rid of it.
They didn’t say the entire thing was Fake, only that some jokester had mixed in parts that were fake on top of the ones that were real. And given their history, it’s pretty clear that any additional Ranger nerfs are always REAL. Especially ones that nerf a “Perma uptime” on anything. (nevermind the fact that you had to give up Melandru runes in order to slap on enough +Buff duration runes to make the Swiftness Perma).
That the ranger shouts were (probably) not originally designed as shouts, but as the Pet Skill category and sometime during the development they shift them to shouts without any adaptation at all.
This.
Shouts would make a great F5 to F8 and should’ve came standard.
What kind of worthless beastmaster are you if you can’t get your pet to sit and wait? (e.g. guard)
Agreed guard is a skill that should be apart of the class mechanic. While keeping it’s shout classification.
In order to properly understand the big picture,
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.
everyone should fear becoming mentally clouded and obsessed with one small section of truth.