Guild Wars 2

With the addition of Heal as One and Rampage as One becoming shouts, it is clear A-net wants to push shout builds to be more viable. However, it is largely agreed upon that Guard and Search & Rescue are very poor skills.

What I suggest is this: make Guard AoE Taunt foes in the target area. And have Taunted foes be taunted towards the pet (in much the same way that the upcoming Beastly Warden trait works). The mechanic and skill name make sense together for one.

As for S&R, I think the idea is fine enough, but the numbers are just too low in comparison to other profession res assists. If this skill is going to work, the pet needs to gain some sort of invulnerability for a short time(stone signet active + resistance?) but still be CCable. Finally, the pet needs to rez much faster — I’m talking Elixir R rez speed or greater.

These are my proposed changes. How do you think these two skills could be improved?

Don’t even kitten think to change Guard . They already had taunt and i think its’ a good where it is. Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

borya.2964:

Don’t even kitten think to change Guard . They already had taunt and i think its’ a good where it is. Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

Can you explain why you think guard is good the way it is currently? They did not already have taunt, that is something that is coming. But having more than one source of it would be ideal. The face that I never use this skill and my reasoning for proposing a change to it are only partially related.

Crap ahahah just started a similar thread…

I suggested Taunt too, but to ‘protect me’; the pet stops attacking so loses function, and although the skill is a damage cancelling skill, we already have one through Signet of Stone, so I suggested damage reduction instead (to something like 50%) but also applicable to condition damage.

It could be interesting to guard, but guard has a very low CD and it’s effect is already unique and opens for interesting dynamic in fights. You basically transform your pet into a turret.

ProtoMarcus.7649:

Crap ahahah just started a similar thread…

I suggested Taunt too, but to ‘protect me’; the pet stops attacking so loses function, and although the skill is a damage cancelling skill, we already have one through Signet of Stone, so I suggested damage reduction instead (to something like 50%) but also applicable to condition damage.

It could be interesting to guard, but guard has a very low CD and it’s effect is already unique and opens for interesting dynamic in fights. You basically transform your pet into a turret.

I can see protect me applying taunt as well. The reason I chose Guard was because, the way I see it, a Ranger’s pet is essentially already a moving turret. Guard only really applies protection to the pet, stealth’s it, and tells it to move to an area.

The way I see it, the first effect is good, and would hopefully remain with my proposed change. The added protection would help the pet survive against taunted targets. Stealthing the pet is rarely to be desired, however, as it draws aggro away from the pet and towards the ranger. While pets can be replaced, rangers cannot. Finally, moving the pet to an area is really something rangers can do already. The pet still targets and follows enemies the same, it just does so with the intent to return after the target is slain (unnecessary). I don’t see a problem with the low cooldown remaining. All-in-all, I believe it would really make pets shine for once.

Sadly guard doesn’t have 3000 range anymore. Still, with resounding timbre, I really don’t want guard changed. You can just have your pet sneak up on someone and mess him up good. Also, it’s a low cd shout, so it’s useful with rune of the soldier.
Also, having an invisible drakehound sneak up on someone and pin him down with immobilize opens up nicely for a longbow burst.

naphack.9346:

Sadly guard doesn’t have 3000 range anymore. Still, with resounding timbre, I really don’t want guard changed. You can just have your pet sneak up on someone and mess him up good. Also, it’s a low cd shout, so it’s useful with rune of the soldier.
Also, having an invisible drakehound sneak up on someone and pin him down with immobilize opens up nicely for a longbow burst.

If disabling your opponent to set up for a burst is what you’re ultimately after, wouldn’t taunt do the same thing? And I didn’t say the low cd would change.

Razor.9872:

borya.2964:

Don’t even kitten think to change Guard . They already had taunt and i think its’ a good where it is. Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

Can you explain why you think guard is good the way it is currently? They did not already have taunt, that is something that is coming. But having more than one source of it would be ideal. The face that I never use this skill and my reasoning for proposing a change to it are only partially related.

I have to explain why i love guard while youd’ont even explain why it’s a “poor” skill, a fact that would be “largely agreed” ?

Well, Guard offers a great synergy combined with the actual Nature’s Voice (but not the incoming Resounding Timbre since you won’t be able to share the boons with your pets, it’s already a nerf). I like the pet being invisible, gaining protection, swiftness and regen, it’s great for pet management when you know how to use it. I like the swiftness (and regen in more condi regen oriented build) it provides to me, enough to gain a slot without to take SOTH or any runes with + X % movement speed. I like the fact that you can use it when your pet is stowed and i like the way it buffs your party in a short CD. All in a single skill. Nothing more that Guard users already know.

Razor.9872:

naphack.9346:

Sadly guard doesn’t have 3000 range anymore. Still, with resounding timbre, I really don’t want guard changed. You can just have your pet sneak up on someone and mess him up good. Also, it’s a low cd shout, so it’s useful with rune of the soldier.
Also, having an invisible drakehound sneak up on someone and pin him down with immobilize opens up nicely for a longbow burst.

If disabling your opponent to set up for a burst is what you’re ultimately after, wouldn’t taunt do the same thing? And I didn’t say the low cd would change.

inb4 mandatory utility skill regardless of traits.
Taunt on a 15 second cd utility. You heard it here first, guys.

borya.2964:

Razor.9872:

borya.2964:

Don’t even kitten think to change Guard . They already had taunt and i think its’ a good where it is. Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

Can you explain why you think guard is good the way it is currently? They did not already have taunt, that is something that is coming. But having more than one source of it would be ideal. The face that I never use this skill and my reasoning for proposing a change to it are only partially related.

I have to explain why i love guard while youd’ont even explain why it’s a “poor” skill, a fact that would be “largely agreed” ?

Well, Guard offers a great synergy combined with the actual Nature’s Voice (but not the incoming Resounding Timbre since you won’t be able to share the boons with your pets, it’s already a nerf). I like the pet being invisible, gaining protection, swiftness and regen, it’s great for pet management when you know how to use it. I like the swiftness (and regen in more condi regen oriented build) it provides to me, enough to gain a slot without to take SOTH or any runes with + X % movement speed. I like the fact that you can use it when your pet is stowed and i like the way it buffs your party in a short CD. All in a single skill. Nothing more that Guard users already know.

Thank you for explaining.
I will now go through your reasons on a point-by-point basis.

“Guard offers a great synergy combined with the actual Nature’s Voice”
-my proposed guard would also offer great synergy with Resounding Timbre, I would argue greater, actually, since the pet would not lose aggo — but rather gain it — it would allow for greater capitalizing on the traits swiftness and regen.

“(but not the incoming Resounding Timbre since you won’t be able to share the boons with your pets, it’s already a nerf)”
-Why are you not wanting guard changed if it will no longer be as strong as it is now?

“I like the pet being invisible, gaining protection, swiftness and regen, it’s great for pet management when you know how to use it.”
-Are you referring to keeping the pet alive? Define “management.”’

“I like the swiftness (and regen in more condi regen oriented build) it provides to me, enough to gain a slot without to take SOTH or any runes with + X % movement speed.

-My proposed change would do nothing to change what you like about this. Therefore, I don’t feel like this is worth mentioning.

“I like the fact that you can use it when your pet is stowed and i like the way it buffs your party in a short CD.”
-My proposed change would not stop the skill from being used while the pet is stowed, or the CD. Therefore, the party buffs would still take effect from the trait, but the party would further benefit from aggo’d mobs.

The reason you "have to explain why [you] love guard while [I don’t] even explain why it’s a “poor” skill" is simply because I asked you to explain, while no one asked me. But I will take your implied snobbishness as the question."

As it stands, the sole purpose of guard is to give your pet protection, and send it to a target unseen. The added protection is nice, but that’s where the skill’s usefulness really ends.. Stealthing the pet is rarely to be desired, as it draws aggro away from the pet and towards the ranger. While pets can be replaced, rangers cannot. Finally, moving the pet to an area is really something rangers can do already. The pet still targets and follows enemies the same, it just does so with the intent to return after the target is slain (unnecessary).

naphack.9346:

Razor.9872:

naphack.9346:

Sadly guard doesn’t have 3000 range anymore. Still, with resounding timbre, I really don’t want guard changed. You can just have your pet sneak up on someone and mess him up good. Also, it’s a low cd shout, so it’s useful with rune of the soldier.
Also, having an invisible drakehound sneak up on someone and pin him down with immobilize opens up nicely for a longbow burst.

If disabling your opponent to set up for a burst is what you’re ultimately after, wouldn’t taunt do the same thing? And I didn’t say the low cd would change.

inb4 mandatory utility skill regardless of traits.
Taunt on a 15 second cd utility. You heard it here first, guys.

Actually, I’m pretty sure this suggestion has been proposed in the past, but it wasn’t in the official forums. Really, this skill would be more class-defining. It would give Rangers an even clearer roll in content groups.

We’ve been discussing Guard a bunch, but how do you guys feel about S&R?

Not everyone runs bearbow. Drawing the aggro away from the pet is not always a bad thing. And for bearbow, there’s that new trait, which gives the f2 ability taunt.

The big upside of the current guard is the surprise factor. The opponents don’t see the invisible pet coming in and get nailed out of nowhere.

Actually, out of this thread, I really like the idea to change “protect me!” to cause taunt.

naphack.9346:

Not everyone runs bearbow. Drawing the aggro away from the pet is not always a bad thing. And for bearbow, there’s that new trait, which gives the f2 ability taunt.

The big upside of the current guard is the surprise factor. The opponents don’t see the invisible pet coming in and get nailed out of nowhere.

Actually, out of this thread, I really like the idea to change “protect me!” to cause taunt.

I didn’t write this threat with the idea of bearbow in mind (I try to forget that is actually a thing, really).

While I can understand the surprise factor being strong, and the fact there is already a taunt applying option, I feel like the surprise factor is minimal in comparison to further application of taunt.

Just to ask, can you explain why drawing aggro away from the pet isn’t always a bad thing? Even in melee, I prefer to have my enemy facing the pet so I can take advantage of Hunter’s Tactics.

I always felt that the Search and Rescue skill was kinda weak in both effectiveness and execution.

I kinda wish the skill worked this way:
Basically you use Search and Rescue and the pet finds and begins healing the downed ally. When the pet starts healing the downed ally, the Search and Rescue skill flips to Rescue which when used shadowports the pet and downed ally to the rangers location.

This I feel would both be fun, effective, and match the skills theme, plus who doesn’t like to rescue people from normally doomed situations like a zerg, deadly aoe, ect.

Razor.9872:

The reason you "have to explain why [you] love guard while [I don’t] even explain why it’s a “poor” skill" is simply because I asked you to explain, while no one asked me. But I will take your implied snobbishness as the question."

Of course no one asked you. You made a statement in your opening tread that you’re not really assuming, saying that everybody agree that Guard is a “poor” skill as if it were self-evident. So you don’t have to explain why and you can directly propose a change. This is a fact, not an offense. Same to the fact that you want to change a skill you never use.

The thing you missed is that i actually like ALL the things i explained in the SAME time. You can’t basically answer with a point-by-point basis.

As an aside, i don’t know how you can already send your pet in an area if you have no target (that’s what you can do with Guard).

And since you clearly speak from a PVE perspective only, we won’t agree for sure.

AlphaK.9486:

I always felt that the Search and Rescue skill was kinda weak in both effectiveness and execution.

I kinda wish the skill worked this way:
Basically you use Search and Rescue and the pet finds and begins healing the downed ally. When the pet starts healing the downed ally, the Search and Rescue skill flips to Rescue which when used shadowports the pet and downed ally to the rangers location.

This I feel would both be fun, effective, and match the skills theme, plus who doesn’t like to rescue people from normally doomed situations like a zerg, deadly aoe, ect.

I love it.

On a less serious note: Let the pet slowly drag the body to your location. It would look AWESOME
Yeah. Just kidding.

borya.2964:

Razor.9872:

The reason you "have to explain why [you] love guard while [I don’t] even explain why it’s a “poor” skill" is simply because I asked you to explain, while no one asked me. But I will take your implied snobbishness as the question."

Of course no one asked you. You made a statement in your opening tread…

Exactly why I didn’t have to explain. You seem to understand. Don’t know why you were acting demeaning for me not doing so.

borya.2964:

…that you’re not really assuming, saying that everybody agree that Guard is a “poor” skill as if it were self-evident.

I’m sorry for not mentioning. Actually, before I made this thread, I wondered around taking a poll from many rangers (82, according to my notes), asking them their opinion of Guard and my proposed change. The vast majority of them agreed (74), the rest either ran out of time to debate or didn’t wish to comment further, so I can’t add their side, unfortunately.

borya.2964:

So you don’t have to explain why and you can directly propose a change. This is a fact, not an offense. Same to the fact that you want to change a skill you never use.

You’re throwing around all these “facts” so lightly. Was that really an offense? By definition, that means you are offended. If so, I’m sorry for offending you in any way. Please take time to grow less easily offended.

And I apologize as well for implying I have never used this skill. I tried various shout ranger builds for a few weeks, but all the while I felt hindered by Guard (and S&R). Sic’em and Protect Me were the only 2 shouts that felt useful. That is why I am proposing these changes. Because I, and the various people I asked, said they liked it. So I thought I would present it to a larger audience.

borya.2964:

The thing you missed is that i actually like ALL the things i explained in the SAME time. You can’t basically answer with a point-by-point basis.

Is that so? Well, that’s already starting to fall apart, isn’kitten“it”, (text checker thinking I’m trying to say something else)? With the shout trait going out of the Nature Magic line and all. But for the heck of it, lets do a full recap, shall we?

borya.2964:

Well, Guard offers a great synergy combined with the actual Nature’s Voice (but not the incoming Resounding Timbre since you won’t be able to share the boons with your pets, it’s already a nerf). I like the pet being invisible, gaining protection, swiftness and regen, it’s great for pet management when you know how to use it. I like the swiftness (and regen in more condi regen oriented build) it provides to me, enough to gain a slot without to take SOTH or any runes with + X % movement speed. I like the fact that you can use it when your pet is stowed and i like the way it buffs your party in a short CD. All in a single skill. Nothing more that Guard users already know.

Everything here, is saying you like guard for its low cooldown, protection application, stealth application, area movement command, synergy with Fortifying Bond and the ability to activate despite pet stowage. The reason I broke down your speel is because the only 2 differences from what you like of the current guard in comparison to my proposed one, are stealth application and area movement command (the later of which can still be done — I will explain in a moment). Everything from the protection application, to the party regen and swiftness, can still be done with the taunt-guard. That is why I broke down what you said — to isolate the sole differences.

borya.2964:

As an aside, i don’t know how you can already send your pet in an area if you have no target (that’s what you can do with Guard).

When one uses Guard, they are generally sending the pet in the direction of the enemy, no? This same task can be accomplished easily be selecting the enemy and pressing F1 (That’s what you can do with our profession mechanic).

borya.2964:

And since you clearly speak from a PVE perspective only, we won’t agree for sure.

There you go again, assuming things. Why would you think I am speaking solely from a PvE perspective? Actually, I’m inclined to feel like I’m speaking from a PvX perspective.

Guard will not keep its low cool down if a disable is rolled into it. Simple as that.

naphack.9346:

Guard will not keep its low cool down if a disable is rolled into it. Simple as that.

Perhaps. Think a 25 second base is sufficient?

Remove the Search part from it… I want to be able to target it.

“Rescue”
Your pet shadow steps to and will revive your targeted downed ally.
Your pet gains 3s of Stability every 3s for 15s.

Then just make the revive at least 66% speed because currently its at 33% of the regular revive speed and make the pet continue to attempt revival even if it is CCd, until the person either dies, they are revived or you call the pet back.

Also, make the skill affected by shout recharge reduction and reduce the CD to 120s in sPvP as it is 180 seconds. Necro’s Signet of Undeath revives 3 people with that CD and doesn’t take their class mechanic away to do it for a period of time.

Then, it would actually be quite good.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Remove the Search part from it… I want to be able to target it.

“Rescue”
Your pet will revive your targeted downed ally.
Your pet gains 3s of Stability every 3s for 15s.
Your pet gains Super Speed for 5s.

Then just make the revive at least 66% speed because currently its at 33% of the regular revive speed and make the pet continue to attempt revival even if it is CCd, until the person either dies, they are revived or you call the pet back.

Also, make the skill affected by shout recharge reduction and reduce the CD to 120s in sPvP as it is 180 seconds. Necro’s Signet of Undeath revives 3 people with that CD and doesn’t take their class mechanic away to do it for a period of time.

Then, it would actually be quite good.

I like this. I can see this working. +1

I am not going to further discuss about rhetoric.

Razor.9872:

When one uses Guard, they are generally sending the pet in the direction of the enemy, no? This same task can be accomplished easily be selecting the enemy and pressing F1 (That’s what you can do with our profession mechanic).

That’s why you failed to understand the utility of guard and the pet management part.

Razor.9872:

There you go again, assuming things. Why would you think I am speaking solely from a PvE perspective? Actually, I’m inclined to feel like I’m speaking from a PvX perspective.

You spoke about mobs, aggro and the so-called uselessness of stealth. So yes, it’s a PVE point of vue.

Razor.9872:

Perhaps. Think a 25 second base is sufficient?

Lol ?

If Guard were to have any sort of control effect, I think displacement would be the best fit. One would send the pet of into the area to guard, and upon reaching that location every valid target would be teleported 360u away from the pet. Until that happens, I’m inclined to let Guard retain its current functionality.

borya.2964:

I am not going to further discuss about rhetoric.

Razor.9872:

When one uses Guard, they are generally sending the pet in the direction of the enemy, no? This same task can be accomplished easily be selecting the enemy and pressing F1 (That’s what you can do with our profession mechanic).

That’s why you failed to understand the utility of guard and the pet management part.

Razor.9872:

There you go again, assuming things. Why would you think I am speaking solely from a PvE perspective? Actually, I’m inclined to feel like I’m speaking from a PvX perspective.

You spoke about mobs, aggro and the so-called uselessness of stealth. So yes, it’s a PVE point of vue.

Razor.9872:

Perhaps. Think a 25 second base is sufficient?

Lol ?

1) Were we ever discussing rhetoric?
2) How am I failing to understand the utility of guard and pet management? You state so, but with no support.
3)I was just using an example. The same things can easily be said in PvP or WvW as well (Although this wouldn’t do much in zergs, would mainly be a small party roaming thing).
4) I’m glad I made you laugh, hopefully lightened up this debate a bit. But could you explain why it did so?

Just trying to understand you’re mindset. As it is right now, I don’t feel like we’re on the same page.

Razor.9872:

4) I’m glad I made you laugh, hopefully lightened up this debate a bit. But could you explain why it did so?

Not sure if troll or serious.

From the way, you always try to pacify opponents of your idea by claiming, nothing would change(and all the explanations you did always included the low cooldown) to now suddenly acknowledging, that your changes would indeed cause the low cooldown to go away, it seems like you intend to force your point of view through, no matter what.
That’s not, how a discussion works. If you aren’t here to discuss, but merely to state your point of view, then there’s no need to discuss any further.

borya.2964:

Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

I don’t use them because they’re crap.

If I could use guard to bunch mobs to cleave them down, Hell, I’d actually start using it.

If they just revert S&R to it’s former glory of being able to ress the dead-dead then I’d use it again.. Haven’t used it since they nerfed it to “work as intended”.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

borya.2964:

Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

I don’t use them because they’re crap.

If I could use guard to bunch mobs to cleave them down, Hell, I’d actually start using it.

If they just revert S&R to it’s former glory of being able to ress the dead-dead then I’d use it again.. Haven’t used it since they nerfed it to “work as intended”.

I agree with you. S&R must be able to resurrect defeated players not only downed ones.
Isn’t that OP? nope.

• CD (as right now) is like a friking lot (85secs WTF!?)
• it’s not an instant resurrection cast like any other reviving spell in game. The pet it’s like an NPC resurecting a player. It can be interrupted, the pet can be killed. I think this skill has to be special in that way: Be able to resurrect defeated players. Otherwise NOBODY will use this.
• CD should be lower. I’d like to see 50-60 secs.

If anet wants us to begin to rely on the pet we need skills like this: unique to the class and that actually relies in the pet to do something any other players will see as usefull.
Anet should begin to see our pets like an extra NPC the rangers have.

As about guard, it should bring Revealed for 10 secs as well. Although i think revealed should work this way:

• any stealthed target will be attacked by the pet but it will not be reavealed The point of this is: if you get in the area the pet will attack you, and most probably the ranger will know where you are because of that. But you will not loose the stealth so you still can hide/escape, also you would be safe from any ranger skills that need an active target (RF channelling wouldn’t work for example).

This will bring two unique mechanics to the ranger by using the pet: detect stealth enemies and resurrect allies. So more group support.

I use guard in multiple builds, increasing the cooldown would destroy the skill, and there is no way they would give us a taunt on such a low cooldown. You’d be better off asking for the taunt to be added to protect me.

I think reducing the CD to 50-60s base would be a bit OP, if they made Resounding Timbre affect it (shout -20% CD doesn’t right now) then it would be 68s CD. In sPvP this is 180s CD.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

I think reducing the CD to 50-60s base would be a bit OP, if they made Resounding Timbre affect it (shout -20% CD doesn’t right now) then it would be 68s CD. In sPvP this is 180s CD.

I don’t think would be that OP. 20% of 60 secs = 48 secs.
Also you have to think it is not an instant cast. The pet has to go to the defeated player and resurrect him.
Meanwhile you can not use your pet for anything else, so you loose the uses of anymore shouts/pet support.

anduriell.6280:

I don’t think would be that OP. 20% of 60 secs = 48 secs.
Also you have to think it is not an instant cast. The pet has to go to the defeated player and resurrect him.
Meanwhile you can not use your pet for anything else, so you loose the uses of anymore shouts/pet support.

But you yourself can continue to do damage and or support or capture the point while the pet does the rez. That is why it has such a long CD.

Ok one sec…ive always used guard as boon application and a way to activate my pets secondary skills on command,but I thought the stealth portion of it didn’t hit until they got to where you placed the ground targeting.

Does the pet really get stealth the whole way in? (I normally cast it right next to me or on my healing spring for a blast finisher so I’ve never noticed)

The stealth happens as soon as the cast time is up.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

anduriell.6280:

I don’t think would be that OP. 20% of 60 secs = 48 secs.
Also you have to think it is not an instant cast. The pet has to go to the defeated player and resurrect him.
Meanwhile you can not use your pet for anything else, so you loose the uses of anymore shouts/pet support.

But you yourself can continue to do damage and or support or capture the point while the pet does the rez. That is why it has such a long CD.

You are forgetting we have a portion of our damage base in the pet, some say as much as 30%.
So while our pet is reviving an ally we do less damage and lost the pet’s F2 utility, plus any other command you could give to the pet (like other shouts). Anyway the point that you miss is that the CD will be mostly in case the skill get interrupted somehow. Because the reviving effect is 1/3 of a real one if the player is being defeated it would take longer than those 48 secs to revive him.

Thus although we can still be useful while our pet is rescuing is not like we are at 100%. And again, i think this kind of unique mechanics would be good for the game in general, making the ranger useful at the same time relaying more on the pet.
After all we are a pet focused class.

naphack.9346:

Razor.9872:

4) I’m glad I made you laugh, hopefully lightened up this debate a bit. But could you explain why it did so?

Not sure if troll or serious.

From the way, you always try to pacify opponents of your idea by claiming, nothing would change(and all the explanations you did always included the low cooldown) to now suddenly acknowledging, that your changes would indeed cause the low cooldown to go away, it seems like you intend to force your point of view through, no matter what.
That’s not, how a discussion works. If you aren’t here to discuss, but merely to state your point of view, then there’s no need to discuss any further.

I was being completely serious (although, that is something a troll would say…you will just have to take my word for it). It never occured to me I was trying to “passify” anyone (lol, guadian skill), I was simply pointing out the effects from traits would still take effect and the pet would still gain protection — something I felt was being ignored despite my repeated attempts to highlight it. I’m sorry if it feels like I’m forcing my point of view on you, I can assure you I’m trying to do nothing of the sort. If anything I’m trying my best to make this a discussion.

Please understand: at no point did I claim nothing would change (wouldn’t be a revamp if nothing changed). Please don’t twist my words. On the topic of the flimsy low cooldown stance, I think my change of mind is exactly how a discussion should go down. Don’t you think my thoughts remaining static would impose a forceful viewpoint further?

If anything, I feel like this comment of yours was a personal attack. Really, I feel like it is personal attacks that have no place in discussions. Please, if you are going to contribute, do so by making clear what you feel is still good (or could improve) with Guard and S&R. Despite what you may feel, I am open to criticism and the other side’s point of view. That is why I created this thread to begin with. I, of course, will defend my viewpoint, but if I see wellmade points, I will not hesitate to allow them to change my opinion.

Jim Hunter.6821:

I use guard in multiple builds, increasing the cooldown would destroy the skill, and there is no way they would give us a taunt on such a low cooldown. You’d be better off asking for the taunt to be added to protect me.

With Heal as One becoming a shout now, as well, do you think Guard still needs to have the short cooldown it has currently? If so, do you think there is a way to modify the skill to make it “better” and still keep its current cooldown? Or do you still prefer it the way it is now? If so, why?

Razor.9872:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I use guard in multiple builds, increasing the cooldown would destroy the skill, and there is no way they would give us a taunt on such a low cooldown. You’d be better off asking for the taunt to be added to protect me.

With Heal as One becoming a shout now, as well, do you think Guard still needs to have the short cooldown it has currently? If so, do you think there is a way to modify the skill to make it “better” and still keep its current cooldown? Or do you still prefer it the way it is now? If so, why?

As i pointed before , to make the Guard shout unique i would do this:

• As about guard, it should bring Revealed for 10 secs as well. Although i think revealed should work this way:
• any stealthed target will be attacked by the pet but it will not be reavealed The point of this is: if you get in the area the pet will attack you, and most probably the ranger will know where you are because of that. But you will not loose the stealth so you still can hide/escape, also you would be safe from any ranger skills that need an active target (RF channelling wouldn’t work for example).
  This will bring two unique mechanics to the ranger by using the pet: detect stealth enemies and resurrect allies. So more group support.

anduriell.6280:

Razor.9872:

Jim Hunter.6821:

I use guard in multiple builds, increasing the cooldown would destroy the skill, and there is no way they would give us a taunt on such a low cooldown. You’d be better off asking for the taunt to be added to protect me.

With Heal as One becoming a shout now, as well, do you think Guard still needs to have the short cooldown it has currently? If so, do you think there is a way to modify the skill to make it “better” and still keep its current cooldown? Or do you still prefer it the way it is now? If so, why?

As i pointed before , to make the Guard shout unique i would do this:

• As about guard, it should bring Revealed for 10 secs as well. Although i think revealed should work this way:
• any stealthed target will be attacked by the pet but it will not be reavealed The point of this is: if you get in the area the pet will attack you, and most probably the ranger will know where you are because of that. But you will not loose the stealth so you still can hide/escape, also you would be safe from any ranger skills that need an active target (RF channelling wouldn’t work for example).
  This will bring two unique mechanics to the ranger by using the pet: detect stealth enemies and resurrect allies. So more group support.

That would be interesting. Although, don’t you think having two skills in the same category (ie Sic’em) doing roughly the same thing with stealth would be a bit much? And would the pet prioratize stealthed targets over visible ones?

anduriell.6280:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

anduriell.6280:

I don’t think would be that OP. 20% of 60 secs = 48 secs.
Also you have to think it is not an instant cast. The pet has to go to the defeated player and resurrect him.
Meanwhile you can not use your pet for anything else, so you loose the uses of anymore shouts/pet support.

But you yourself can continue to do damage and or support or capture the point while the pet does the rez. That is why it has such a long CD.

You are forgetting we have a portion of our damage base in the pet, some say as much as 30%.
So while our pet is reviving an ally we do less damage and lost the pet’s F2 utility, plus any other command you could give to the pet (like other shouts). Anyway the point that you miss is that the CD will be mostly in case the skill get interrupted somehow. Because the reviving effect is 1/3 of a real one if the player is being defeated it would take longer than those 48 secs to revive him.

Thus although we can still be useful while our pet is rescuing is not like we are at 100%. And again, i think this kind of unique mechanics would be good for the game in general, making the ranger useful at the same time relaying more on the pet.
After all we are a pet focused class.

I had not forgotten that, the point being is that if you went to rez the person yourself and still micro’d the pet, you would have lost 70% of your damage and may have had to move off the point to do it. This is incredibly powerful in sPvP and the reason it has a 180s CD there.

The mechanics would be good, for sure, but 48s is too OP for WvW.

Read my suggestion for changing it above.

About the first question i don’t think would be too much.
Guard is an area effect while sic’em should be a single target shout. Their applications would be completely different:
Guard could be use to protect yourself against an invisible enemy for short time (10 secs) or defend point in PvP (something we really lack) .
Sic’em would make the shout actually usefull because the pet would make some pressure on the enemy. But because you need an active target when cast, wouldn’t work if the target is already invisible.

About the Guard and prioritize, i wouldn’t change how is working now, first to arrive first to get served, if the target leaves the area then next one/closest inside of it. It’s not about making the pet like a invisible detectors i think, that could be OP.

Protect me getting taunt – yes please! Feels better to put the taunt ability on that skill imho. Would be nice to get a taunt ability on a skill, and not only through a trait. I think taunt in general fits a pet class like the ranger very nicely.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Remove the Search part from it… I want to be able to target it.

“Rescue”
Your pet shadow steps to and will revive your targeted downed ally.
Your pet gains 3s of Stability every 3s for 15s.

Then just make the revive at least 66% speed because currently its at 33% of the regular revive speed and make the pet continue to attempt revival even if it is CCd, until the person either dies, they are revived or you call the pet back.

Also, make the skill affected by shout recharge reduction and reduce the CD to 120s in sPvP as it is 180 seconds. Necro’s Signet of Undeath revives 3 people with that CD and doesn’t take their class mechanic away to do it for a period of time.

Then, it would actually be quite good.

Yeah Heimskarl i’ve read it. But then would be like Spirit of Nature with a longer radius and using the pet. Although i understand your point still misses my point.

Although how you describe it is a very good skill, that would make that shout like any other one resurrecting skill in game. My point is to make the skill unique in some way and somehow also related to the pet.
This is to make the skill usable (long CDs do not), useful for the ranger as well as for the group (we are extending some limited lick wounds for the allies) and make us depend more on the pet if we want to. 48 seconds once traited is a fair CD for this kind of skill. Most fights don’t take longer than 1 min, and that would make this skill to be usable just once. Also i think 180 secs CD in PvP is simply too much, i would leave to 90 secs no traited. And for things like that we are not really useful in PvP and we know anet do this kind of things “because someone complained”.

This could happen in WvW in small group fight, because in a Zerg doesn’t matter what the pet does actually(in PvP the CD would be adjusted again):

• You send the pet to rescue a defeated (not downed) player already stomped.
• Then the enemy group would have to focus in your pet, at least one of them, to avoid the resurrecting, nothing else change in the skill, not stability, not better speed.
• The fights usually don’t take longer than 1 minute. By then or the other team is dead or someone try to escape/leave.

This would make the enemy to be aware of the pets not only something it bothers you like background noise.
As i said, this is supposed to be a pet class and for that we need more skills that make them useful (with a better AI and durability indeed).

Razor.9872:

As for S&R, I think the idea is fine enough, but the numbers are just too low in comparison to other profession res assists. If this skill is going to work, the pet needs to gain some sort of invulnerability for a short time(stone signet active + resistance?) but still be CCable. Finally, the pet needs to rez much faster — I’m talking Elixir R rez speed or greater.

I do think you don’t get it Search and rescue is an additional rez assist. Ranger have already a very strong rez assist in Nature spirit the elite spirit skill. The best course of thing wouldn’t be to keep track on this skill but to totally revamp it into something else with another effect. I do think that they create this one because they lacked idea or clue about whether it would be usefull or not.

So, since there is barely any use in rez assist skill wouldn’t it be better to accept this fact and do something else? This could be an order that grant distorsion to the pet for an amount of time for example. This would allow the ranger to actually keep it’s pet alive in extrem situation like when 2 zerg collide or in a boss fight with tons of one hit KO move.

borya.2964:

Razor.9872:

borya.2964:

Don’t even kitten think to change Guard . They already had taunt and i think its’ a good where it is. Don’t propose changes to skills you never use please.

Can you explain why you think guard is good the way it is currently? They did not already have taunt, that is something that is coming. But having more than one source of it would be ideal. The face that I never use this skill and my reasoning for proposing a change to it are only partially related.

I have to explain why i love guard while youd’ont even explain why it’s a “poor” skill, a fact that would be “largely agreed” ?

Well, Guard offers a great synergy combined with the actual Nature’s Voice (but not the incoming Resounding Timbre since you won’t be able to share the boons with your pets, it’s already a nerf). I like the pet being invisible, gaining protection, swiftness and regen, it’s great for pet management when you know how to use it. I like the swiftness (and regen in more condi regen oriented build) it provides to me, enough to gain a slot without to take SOTH or any runes with + X % movement speed. I like the fact that you can use it when your pet is stowed and i like the way it buffs your party in a short CD. All in a single skill. Nothing more that Guard users already know.

Guard may be useful and a lot of apothecary rangers run it, but its still a very very badly designed skill.

Most rangers use Guard only because of its access to Nature’s Voice on a short cooldown. You will hardly see any rangers running Guard without the trait. Honestly, there are no viable builds out there that runs Guard without taking Nature’s Voice.

You will have HaO instead of guard now, leaving you the extra slot for a utility.

kiwituatara.6053:

Guard may be useful and a lot of apothecary rangers run it, but its still a very very badly designed skill.

Most rangers use Guard only because of its access to Nature’s Voice on a short cooldown. You will hardly see any rangers running Guard without the trait. Honestly, there are no viable builds out there that runs Guard without taking Nature’s Voice.

Do you have a viable build using untraited traps, untraited spirits, untraited survival skills ? A lot of utitlities need traits to work, no matter the class. I don’t see your point.

If they combined Search & Rescue with Guard, I’d be happy.

My pet goes to my friendly target to rez them, the pet gaining stealth and protection to help it survive standing on a downed player.

borya.2964:

kiwituatara.6053:

Guard may be useful and a lot of apothecary rangers run it, but its still a very very badly designed skill.

Most rangers use Guard only because of its access to Nature’s Voice on a short cooldown. You will hardly see any rangers running Guard without the trait. Honestly, there are no viable builds out there that runs Guard without taking Nature’s Voice.

Do you have a viable build using untraited traps, untraited spirits, untraited survival skills ? A lot of utitlities need traits to work, no matter the class. I don’t see your point.

Actually, I see lots of builds using untraited survival skills, and I think I did see one power hybrid build that is popular now in WvW roaming use only partially traited traps (spirits are another matter, untraited spirits feel useless). But the point is if Survival skills and signets can do it, there isn’t any reason our shouts can’t either.

Just a note, traited HaO will have a 16sec cooldown.

I like the Guard change. It would give us a strong control effect on our utility bar and, when combined with the new Beastmaster grandmaster trait, would give us two taunts through our pet for more control. The cooldown would definitely have to increase, but only to around 30-40 seconds. Traited it would be lower. And with Heal as One becoming a shout a shout ranger could still maintain permanent regen and swiftness pretty easily.

I like the idea of Search and Rescue allowing the pet to bring the downed player to us for rezzing. It’d give the skill far more tactical applications and make it work as a very effective stomp stopper. I would like the cooldown to be lower though. Maybe around 70-80 seconds. 180 is excessive.