After this patch I, as many of you fellow rangers did, noticed that once again we have received the short end of the balance stick. This has puzzled me since launch.
Back in January it was said by Jon that he felt that the ranger was the class in the most need of improvement. Six months later and we have received far more nerfing than buffing, despite being at the bottom tier in PvE and WvW and near the bottom in PvP. Last patch we recieved a nerf because we had one viable PvP build that was not bottom tier. And this nerf was across the board in all game modes when it was only ‘needed’ in PvP. Scarily enough, it was that PvP build that was least effected by it.
And that brings me to how the ranger has gotten to this point. After this latest nerf to my fave class I decided to do a bit of forum diving. And what I found was quite alarming.
Rangers. We are to blame for all of this. We are to blame for our weakness.
When I look in any other class-specific forum, warrior for instance, I find a lot of the same sentiment. Most everyone can agree that this latest patch buffed warriors. Yet when I visit their forum I see everyone there agreeing that the warrior is still too weak and many even claiming nerfs. I barely see anyone arguing otherwise.
Now when I look to our ranger forum here I see contention everywhere. Any time I see anyone talking about the real problems with our class, it is rare that someone else doesn’t come by and try to tell them that it is not a problem. By doing this each and every time we are telling ArenaNet that the class is fine as is. And by our excessively low standing in all game modes, I feel confident in saying that it is not.
What can we do about it? How about as a community come to some sort of consensus of how we see the class and where we all see it. Right now we are giving ANet so many mixed messages they cannot see our true complaints through all the defenders. Lets stop those mixed messages and let them see what we see. A wonderful class with lots of potential but few current applications.
The reason why there is so much debate over rangers, is because we do not have a clear structure as a class and the class doesn’t seem to agree with ANETs design philosophy for the game. GW2 is designed for casual players and rangers play very poorly as a casual class, in that sense warrior and rangers are two classes on the opposite side of a spectrum.
Warrior is a very good casual class you can play your warrior pretty much however you want and you could still be decent at it, and if you are a more hardcore player you can optimize the class easy for that as well. Warriors also have a clear/clearer class structure, even somebody who doesn’t play a warrior probably an idea of what a warrior is and how they play out. Rangers on the other hand is not like that at all, you can not play a Ranger class however you want. We have a lot of things Rangers are poor at, and there aren’t a lot of things they excel at. A lot of our mechanics also seem to be incomplete and poorly implemented, our weapons aren’t optimized, we lack pet mechanics, we lack a decent pet AI, and we have no clear design philosophy. This game is made as simple as possible for casual players, but we have many mechanics that go against that. Spirits need to be managed, pets need to be managed, we have traps, signets, shouts, and we seem to be the only class in game with survival skills. A lot of our spells also have a second portion to them, and we also have spells for our pets too.
We have no “obvious builds”. If you go on a warrior and build a beserker build chance are very high you have a general idea on where to put your points, same if you play a shout build or a banner build, on a ranger there is nothing like that. Rangers on the other hand aren’t like that at all, we have a Beast Mastery trait line to focus on our pets but we have a lot of traits in the Skirmishing that are also for our pets. There is a trait that decrease the cooldown on our survival skills by 20%, but we only have 5 spells that are considered as a survival skill and 2 of them happen to be offensive spells and no where in game does it tell you what is classified as a survival spell and what isn’t. On launch there were already different warrior build guides out for the class, it took the ranger community more than 6 months to come up with a good way to build our class and that only happened after the release of the apothecary armor. Chance are if Southsun was never added in the game, we would still be in the same place we were 6 months ago.
To be honest I could right a whole essay on the problems with the ranger class, and it might still not be enough. We are getting better as a class and still are, but it will take time. With the recent changes I was finally able to justify using a build I’ve been thinking about for almost 2 months, only reason why I didn’t try it before was because it was far less effective then the previous BM build. So things are moving forward, but not as fast as people want them too.
(edited by Minute.7293)
Many of us can. You sound like one who is trying to help the class. Many don’t, though. We do need to have a clearer voice as a class so ANet can hear what the problems with the class are because it seems like either they are not aware or they cannot hear us through the noise of the people trying to tell us there is nothing wrong.
SPvP started adopting a build I made last year, and people in SPvP didn’t know how to combat it…
Thus it got nerfed.
And now, the “defenders” are the bad guys. Majority of the ranger players say that devs don’t listen to players and your post says that they do listen, but only to the defenders? How ironic.
If you read the guides I’ve made, I acknowledge that there are issues, but it is not as bad as players make them out to be. That is might biggest issue with this entire subforum. People have been saying that ANet broke Jaguars but they are still the best DPS pet and the nerf hardly touched their DPS. People have been saying that bows are broken, but LB only got buffs this patch. How does getting buffs on a weapon break it? Granted, it could still use more, but the buffs we got are a step in the right direction.
People have this preconceived vision of what a ranger should be, and it doesn’t align with ANet’s vision. That’s the main problem. Just look all of the “RANGE”-r threads. Until people can perma-stow their pet or their longbow does 20k rapid fires people will never stop QQing.
It got here because A-Net stopped caring about dungeon class balance long ago.
Jubs….I hit a 14k rapid fire today! Wasn’t even a crit!
(Gotta love perma-flanking Jade Maw tentacles)
We are stronger now than ever before. People cry that we get nerf every patch but yet we are stronger. While we seem to get a neft every patch we take one step back and two or three steps forward.
I beleive it takes more skill to be a ranger than any other class. We have rangers that can not keep thier pets alive more than 10 seconds. Yet one of our strongest builds rely heavily on the pet for damage.
Some rangers cant see beyond what they want and see whats good for the class. We have people comparing warrior’s long bow to the ranger long bow in term of damage.
Two compare any ranger weapon damage wise to any other class without considering the 40% damage ( or whatever the new % is) our pets does shows you dont understand this class.
The problem is the lack of vision or understand that have alot of players QQ. We still have players demanding the first shortbow nerf be resended. That nerf was the biggest turn point for us rangers.
There are rangers outrage because the dreamer has a shorter range claiming its useless now. Ranger over used the short bow. Honestly If you used the short bow consistantly over 1000 ranger you should have been using the long bow. The difference in a skirmish is maybe 2 arrows after that they are under the 900 range.
We all want rangers to be strong. The problem is many of you want ranger to be strong by way of OP damage and skills. This is not strength. I dont want to win the way thiefs or mesmers win.
I want to stand toe to toe or kite in a respectable area of battle. Not run like a kitten and sneak attack someone as the only means to win. Very few people congradulate mesners or thieves for a fight well fought unless they are playing the same class.
This is another reason why we are divided. I want a level playing field. I dont mean level by they have something op and we have something to.
Necro are coming up but its kind of bs that they can apply torment and then fear you two times for a total of 30,000 bleed. I will stand by my ranger until the point where we are OP.
Yes we are Op underwater but that is very limited. We all know it needs a nerf but I sure there are those of you who will still qq when they neft it.
(edited by Serraphin Storm.2369)
The thing is that we are not stronger than we were before. We are still weaker than before the patch. And your post even here saying otherwise are exactly the kind of defending that is hurting the ranger.
Now don’t get me wrong. Yes, the ranger is stronger than some realize and I will defend some aspects of it at times. But that does not mean that it is still not one of if not the weakest class across all game modes. And I still run my ranger through most all PvE content (except the Aetherblade Retreat dungeon; designed to make rangers ragequit) as I am quite attached to the class.
Rangers may have overused the shortbow in the past. And they will continue to ‘overuse’ it. Why? Because even after the longbow patch, the shortbow is the superior weapon. I did some cursory testing in the Mists with rampager and berzerker amulets and short and longbows last night. What did I find? Head on I dealt as much damage with the longbow at max range as I did with the shortbow at any range it could hit. And that was only head on. Once I attacked from the side the shortbow was significantly faster. The way to get us to use options is to make the other options viable on their own accord, not to kneecap the main option to force change.
Many of us are wanting what is good for the class. We’re wanting viability in PvE as we’re tired of being kicked simply for having the gall to play rangers. We’re tired of being asked to change classes in WvW as any other class can contribute greater. And we’re tired of basically being forced into melee as our only viable option as our ranged options are weaker than almost any other classes, despite being the ‘masters of ranged combat’.
Now I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have melee. I’m saying ranged ranger should be viable. And I believe that argument is for another thread anyways.
How did the ranger get here?
Well when a mommy ranger and a daddy ranger love each other…
People have this preconceived vision of what a ranger should be, and it doesn’t align with ANet’s vision. That’s the main problem. Just look all of the “RANGE”-r threads. Until people can perma-stow their pet or their longbow does 20k rapid fires people will never stop QQing.
Not all of us, or even most of us, are demanding this. We want more viability. People are proposing some things as those are all they can think of to offer. We all simply want a viable ranger class.
Yes, people want ranged ranger. That’s how the class was advertised and honestly there should not be a problem with a class specializing in ranged. Note that I said ‘specializing’ and not ‘does range only’. That is a trap that too many threads fall to. People are not saying ‘ranger must only do ranged damage’. We are saying that ‘ranger should to adequate ranged damage’. Because right now we do not.
Perma-stowing? Some are crying for that, yes. Most of us just want pets to be fixed one way or another, whether it is fixing their AI, granting them AoE detection or partial immunity, or just removing them. They are part of the reason rangers are kneecapped and do need to be remedied, but as a group I think that we just want them fixed and not necessarily removed.
And yes, some will complain regardless. But if we always keep shutting down even the smallest complaints, ANet will take that the ranger community agrees with all the changes and we will never see the love that the ranger class deserves.
I have not had trouble with the blader dungeon at all. Infact on more than two occaison I had to finish the last to bosses by myself.
We have 3 range weapons not just two. You claim we are weaker now. How so. everything we have lost was made up for in on way or another. The vulnearablity on the lb more than makes up for the bleed. The real reason the long bow was consider inferior is not that the damage was lower its that the arrows were eaier to strafe.
The ‘fatal’ mistake is having a OP build in sPvP that gets loads of players jumping on the bandwagon…
Ranger wise nothing stood out at all until BM Ranger, then thousands of desperate Rangers jumped on it, just glad to have a ‘decent’ build for once. Anet don’t like that so Ranger gets nerfed in sPvP, which destroys Ranger in WvW/dungeons and has a negative effect on PvE.
Necro, has become a recent bandwagon class, if it continues, same will happen to Necro…
I have not had trouble with the blader dungeon at all. Infact on more than two occaison I had to finish the last to bosses by myself.
We have 3 range weapons not just two. You claim we are weaker now. How so. everything we have lost was made up for in on way or another. The vulnearablity on the lb more than makes up for the bleed. The real reason the long bow was consider inferior is not that the damage was lower its that the arrows were eaier to strafe.
I personally tested the SB against the LB with both zerker and rampager stats last night. Even properly spiking the vuln each time, the LB was slower or at best on par with the SB. Try it yourself.
And yes, we do have 3 ranged weapons. I also tested out the axes. SB kills faster than the axe as well.
We did receive slight buffs to the LB that only brought it closer to the SB in power, not allowing to surpass the SB. The SB got slight buffs to attack power on the utility skills for it, you know, the ones you don’t spam as they are conditional on when you use them. And they were both offset by the SB losing a large range window where it would have still been the superior weapon for the range (as well as losing a potential 300 range for piercing arrows for those of us who do actually skirmish with the SB) and with the pet DPS loss which is noticeable.
I, personally, run whatever is most useful in a dungeon. That has me, sadly, forced into melee far more than I would prefer. I would prefer to stay ranged more, but the current ranger state makes that nonviable if I actually want to contribute well.
Not all of us, or even most of us, are demanding this. We want more viability. People are proposing some things as those are all they can think of to offer. We all simply want a viable ranger class.
RRR and BM Bunker builds have been proven time and again to be viable and effective in sPvP/WvW. Full zerker in high level fractals works as well (which most would say to be harder than the “normal” dungeons). What do you mean by “viable ranger class” exactly?
Yes, people want ranged ranger. That’s how the class was advertised and honestly there should not be a problem with a class specializing in ranged. Note that I said ‘specializing’ and not ‘does range only’. That is a trap that too many threads fall to. People are not saying ‘ranger must only do ranged damage’. We are saying that ‘ranger should to adequate ranged damage’. Because right now we do not.
While I agree, ranger “ranged” damage is a bit lacking, that is because it is the nature of balance in these kind of games. If you have rangers doing damage on par to melee, then what is the point of going melee at all? They’re at a much greater risk for being in within range of enemies, while the ranged attackers are at no risk at all and they get rewarded the same. Would you consider that balanced or fair?
Perma-stowing? Some are crying for that, yes. Most of us just want pets to be fixed one way or another, whether it is fixing their AI, granting them AoE detection or partial immunity, or just removing them. They are part of the reason rangers are kneecapped and do need to be remedied, but as a group I think that we just want them fixed and not necessarily removed.
Yes, I want pet AI to be fixed just as much as the next ranger, but you’re acting like they’re completely useless in their current state. Yes they have trouble hitting mobile targets but throw a cripple on their target and suddenly they deal decent damage. Canines have the best kill time on moving targets because they have a built in cripple and knockdown. All it takes is a snare or two but people are just too stubborn and want easy mode pets. Yes, I want pets to dodge red circles too, but keeping them alive is possible most of the time and yes they die immediately to certain things like the laser room in Aetherblade dungeon and certain boss attacks. Should we ask ANet balance their survivability on encounters that happen in such a small portion of the game?
And yes, some will complain regardless. But if we always keep shutting down even the smallest complaints, ANet will take that the ranger community agrees with all the changes and we will never see the love that the ranger class deserves.
Once again you’re saying that ANet only listens to the “defenders.” I’m not shutting down complaints, I actually agree with some of them. It’s the presentation that I don’t agree with. “Pet damage nerf” equates to “pets are now useless.” “Pet leash is now 2000 range” equates to " the F1 (“attack my target”) function is all but useless as you have to be nearly on top of your opponent to be in range." These exaggerations are what I’m against, not the complaints themselves.
Lastly, why are you just replying to the last bit of my post?
There’s nothing we can do.. Anet hates rangers. I’ve officially quit my ranger. I was a tanky beastmaster running 0/0/30/20/20 and with the GIANT nerfs to my pets, I’m basically utterly useless. I LOVED my build and I loved that I could be tanky and still do a decent amount of damage through speccing into pet damage, but now there’s no point in playing my class like this anymore and if I can’t play my ranger the way I loved playing it, there’s no point.
Anet makes a motto like “play the game however you want to play it” and then nerfs the living kittening hell out of the way that I want to play the game..
RRR and BM Bunker builds have been proven time and again to be viable and effective in sPvP/WvW. Full zerker in high level fractals works as well (which most would say to be harder than the “normal” dungeons). What do you mean by “viable ranger class” exactly?
Yes. That is bunker melee style builds in PvP and WvW, and pure damage in PvE. A pure damage build that is outdone by practically every other class (except maybe necromancer and guardian) going full zerker damage in PvE. Thankfully a ranger has enough endurance regen to survive well, despite going full glass cannon.
While I agree, ranger “ranged” damage is a bit lacking, that is because it is the nature of balance in these kind of games. If you have rangers doing damage on par to melee, then what is the point of going melee at all? They’re at a much greater risk for being in within range of enemies, while the ranged attackers are at no risk at all and they get rewarded the same. Would you consider that balanced or fair?
I’m not saying that ranger ranged damage should be more powerful than their melee damage. I’m saying it should, at the very least, be on par with other classes ranged options. I do more ranged damage as a thief or warrior than as a ranger, even with bows. A ranger should wield the bows more effectively than the other classes as the class has been advertised as ‘unparalleled archers’.
Yes, I want pet AI to be fixed just as much as the next ranger, but you’re acting like they’re completely useless in their current state. Yes they have trouble hitting mobile targets but throw a cripple on their target and suddenly they deal decent damage. Canines have the best kill time on moving targets because they have a built in cripple and knockdown. All it takes is a snare or two but people are just too stubborn and want easy mode pets. Yes, I want pets to dodge red circles too, but keeping them alive is possible most of the time and yes they die immediately to certain things like the laser room in Aetherblade dungeon and certain boss attacks. Should we ask ANet balance their survivability on encounters that happen in such a small portion of the game?
For PvEers, that is not a small portion of the game. For us PvE players, dungeons are a majority of the content, outside of events and guild missions, that we do. And pet survivability there is quite pitiful. This is a case where a split between how pets are treated by environmental sources would help greatly as that dungeon will kill your pet in both fights no matter how hard you try to keep it alive. At least in most dungeons there are things you can do if you know the class.
In boss battles or other places in PvE where AoE is spammed, pets are useless. Thankfully there are only a handful of those places. Everywhere else pets can still be useful if micro-managed as all good PvE rangers know. I personally tend to run dogs and drakes and manually command them as necessary. Dog’s CC and drakes AoE attacks (and the reef drake’s confusion) can be a boon if done right.
And PvE dungeons are no more a ‘small part’ of the game than PvP is. It is the place for dedicated PvEers. So ignoring it is, in essence, ignoring the entirety of the PvE community, something that seems more and more likely as changes keep being implemented with only PvP balance in mind and without a thought to how it is affecting PvE.
Once again you’re saying that ANet only listens to the “defenders.” I’m not shutting down complaints, I actually agree with some of them. It’s the presentation that I don’t agree with. “Pet damage nerf” equates to “pets are now useless.” “Pet leash is now 2000 range” equates to " the F1 (“attack my target”) function is all but useless as you have to be nearly on top of your opponent to be in range." These exaggerations are what I’m against, not the complaints themselves.
And I don’t think that they only listen to the defenders. But do the class a favour and look across the other class forums. See how each time people bring up complaints they are not quickly told that that isn’t an issue as happens here. With how quickly some of us try to defent the class, it does give a feeling that the class is in a stronger place than it actually is.
Lastly, why are you just replying to the last bit of my post?
I replied to only the last bit as that is the part I had the most issue with.
Also, I think one of the biggest problems is those that play mostly, if not solely, PvP don’t see the plight of the PvE ranger as either they are unaware or don’t care. The ranger is far more viable in PvP than elsewhere. And even there you are practically forced into melee with no other recourse. In PvE, most classes have many options. Ranger has few options, and fewer that are even on par with what another class can provide.
Note: Second post due to post length limit. Sry.
I think it’s another example of the developer’s tunnel vision when it comes to game balance. The bunker ranger build didn’t really take off until after Jon made those comments. They were probably prepared to do some work on the class, but then some viability in a very niche build appeared so they stopped it. Unfortunately everything that doesn’t fit that niche fell out of view of their tunnel vision.
Had the bunker build never emerged we might have see more progress for the ranger. As it stands, warriors seem to be sucking up all their resources.
Yes. That is bunker melee style builds in PvP and WvW, and pure damage in PvE. A pure damage build that is outdone by practically every other class (except maybe necromancer and guardian) going full zerker damage in PvE. Thankfully a ranger has enough endurance regen to survive well, despite going full glass cannon.
Rangers played effectively bring just as much to the table as any other class. Whenever I run in a party, people are surprised that we have so much DPS despite “having a ranger in the party.” It’s prejudice against the class and rangers themselves are the ones spreading it. Heck, rangers call MH axe a piece of crap but it’s an amazing weapon in CoE against the golem boss with the turrets. You can just target the boss and the turrets gets hit by the bounces without having to be targeted.
I’m not saying that ranger ranged damage should be more powerful than their melee damage. I’m saying it should, at the very least, be on par with other classes ranged options. I do more ranged damage as a thief or warrior than as a ranger, even with bows. A ranger should wield the bows more effectively than the other classes as the class has been advertised as ‘unparalleled archers’.
Fair enough. However, this ties back to balance. We already have something else that attacks with us, if we had the same damage as other classes, they’d be the ones crying for nerfs. This is only a problem if you think that pets are completely useless. Even bosses see a big spike in damage when a SotW powered Rapid Fire + Lightning Breath is used on them.
-snip-
And PvE dungeons are no more a ‘small part’ of the game than PvP is. It is the place for dedicated PvEers. So ignoring it is, in essence, ignoring the entirety of the PvE community, something that seems more and more likely as changes keep being implemented with only PvP balance in mind and without a thought to how it is affecting PvE.
You misunderstood what I said. When I said “small portion,” I meant boss battles, not dungeons. Imagine if pets had enough survivability to withstand boss AoE. They’d be near unkillable for everything else. That would totally eliminate the need for pet micro.
And I don’t think that they only listen to the defenders. But do the class a favour and look across the other class forums. See how each time people bring up complaints they are not quickly told that that isn’t an issue as happens here. With how quickly some of us try to defent the class, it does give a feeling that the class is in a stronger place than it actually is.
Well you sure changed your tune from your OP :P
And yes, rangers are stronger than people think they are. If you were to believe the QQers, pets never hit even a stationary golem, or if they did, they’d be doing 0 damage. That doesn’t mean that ANet should stop improving rangers just because players have a mixed reaction in the forums.
Also, I think one of the biggest problems is those that play mostly, if not solely, PvP don’t see the plight of the PvE ranger as either they are unaware or don’t care. The ranger is far more viable in PvP than elsewhere. And even there you are practically forced into melee with no other recourse. In PvE, most classes have many options. Ranger has few options, and fewer that are even on par with what another class can provide.
If you mean the State-of-the-Game people, then yes I will agree with you. But that’s only because rangers have been underrepresented in that podcast. That’s why I’m pretty excited to see Battosai go on there soon.
If you mean the State-of-the-Game people, then yes I will agree with you. But that’s only because rangers have been underrepresented in that podcast. That’s why I’m pretty excited to see Battosai go on there soon.
They had Symbolic on at least once (I don’t watch them any more, I just look for the ranger highlights) and he plays ranger.
I don’t think Battosai will solve any PvE problems, it’s an sPvP podcast so they don’t focus on PvE issues (unless their sPvP offerings that month are unimpressive and they try to pad them with PvE comments). Unless Battosai specifically chases after PvE issues (which would be strange) we are unlikely to see any discussion of the ranger’s PvE issues. A lot of sPvP players don’t even have level 80 characters.
We aren’t going to get answers for PvE issues on an sPvP podcast. They need to have the balance devs go on a podcast which discusses PvE (like guild cast, for lack of a better alternative). A monthly FAQ a couple weeks after patch notes come out would be a huge improvement. It also wouldn’t hurt if they had a developer blog to accompany patch notes similair to what they did with GW1 (http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/developer_updates/september_2012_skill_balances.php). One of the biggest problems with the current system is that controversial changes which don’t seem obvious (shortbow range reduction) are given no reasonings or explanations. The communication just isn’t there. Get one of the community team members to put down the twitter and facebook one day, sit in on some of the sPvP balance meetings and sit down with one of the balance devs for half a day to write up a blog explaining the patch notes. It will be a lot more useful than spoiling the latest Living Story plot.
Another problem with the podcast format is that live interviews are difficult to perform well in, especially for amateurs. Answering questions on the spot (even if you know what the topic will be) can be very difficult to do well and you see this in many of the SotG podcasts. I honestly believe the community would be better served with a developer blog (maybe in addition – there is still value in two way communication and being held accountable on the spot by knowledgeable people given the power to as questions) to the podcast format, this ensures the developers can be more thorough in their reasoning and explanations and details don’t fit through the cracks.
They have a limited number of contributors on the podcast, and they don’t have eight so not everyone is going to be represented. I’ll still look out for Battosai, but I’m not expecting much communication in the way of PvE rangers.
(edited by Shiren.9532)
Yeah, I’d like to see a blog to explain all the changes they made. It wouldn’t completely quell all the QQ, but atleast we can avoid all of the unnecessary debates like what “ranger” really means, or why SB was nerfed to 900 range.
Most of the complaints i’ve read were about that 40% of our damage that`s an AI. Even ANet doesnt know what to do with it based on their buffing and nerfing our pets every patch.There have been many great suggestions on the forum on how to imrove our pets, none implemented yet sadly.
P.S. Oh and there was something about making the pet easyer to control, but it was like 2 months ago and we’re still waiting.
The PvP ‘agenda’ has gotten rangers to where they are in now, and this says it all:.
Rangers played effectively bring just as much to the table as any other class. Whenever I run in a party, people are surprised that we have so much DPS despite “having a ranger in the party.” It’s prejudice against the class and rangers themselves are the ones spreading it. Heck, rangers call MH axe a piece of crap but it’s an amazing weapon in CoE against the golem boss with the turrets. You can just target the boss and the turrets gets hit by the bounces without having to be targeted.
Rangers can bring a lot to the table if the player is skilled. But regardless of how much we do bring, we still don’t bring as much as most other classes. And I have been kicked out far more as a ranger than as when I play any other class before I can even say a single word.
Before you ask, yes I have played all classes, and all but engies in dungeons (my engy isn’t 80 yet, all my others are).
Fair enough. However, this ties back to balance. We already have something else that attacks with us, if we had the same damage as other classes, they’d be the ones crying for nerfs. This is only a problem if you think that pets are completely useless. Even bosses see a big spike in damage when a SotW powered Rapid Fire + Lightning Breath is used on them.
We do, but too much damage is shifted to the pet IMHO. If you can manage to keep the pet alive it is great damage. But against bosses and champions, especially those that use heavy AoE attacks, that damage cannot be relied upon and we have that much lower DPS during those fights.
Pets are not useless. They are just unreliable when we need them most in dungeons. Not useless. Just unreliable.
You misunderstood what I said. When I said “small portion,” I meant boss battles, not dungeons. Imagine if pets had enough survivability to withstand boss AoE. They’d be near unkillable for everything else. That would totally eliminate the need for pet micro.
The rest of the dungeons, for the most part, are not challenging. The challenge comes from the bosses. And nothing but the bosses tends to spam the AoE that kills the pets. Even as is, my pets don’t die to pretty much anything but AoEs. And AoEs are pretty much an insta-kill. At the very least, some simple AoE avoidance by the pets would do much to remedy the pet issue.
And pet micro would still be needed to properly assign targets and not have our pets aggro everything in sight before the party is ready. Pet swapping and recalling should not be our only recourse to pets seeing AoEs. That puts far more micro-management requirement on a ranger than any other class has. It also forces us to swap pets and start the 20 second pet timer to avoid an AoE and potentially not be able to swap again when we need it to avoid a boss attack or another killer AoE.
Well you sure changed your tune from your OP :P
And yes, rangers are stronger than people think they are. If you were to believe the QQers, pets never hit even a stationary golem, or if they did, they’d be doing 0 damage. That doesn’t mean that ANet should stop improving rangers just because players have a mixed reaction in the forums.
Never changed my tune once. I’ve never thought they are so weak as to be useless. I know they can be useful. Just not as useful as the other classes are at the same effort applied.
I do agree that ANet should do more for us rangers. I know this last patch was more focused on necromancers and warriors. I hope this ranger nerf was in preperation for more (hopefully positive) attention in the next big patch.
And again, the mixed reaction and quick defending of iffy balance choices does give enough of a mixed reaction that it may be hard for them to truly see what us rangers see as problem points for the class.
If you mean the State-of-the-Game people, then yes I will agree with you. But that’s only because rangers have been underrepresented in that podcast. That’s why I’m pretty excited to see Battosai go on there soon.
I also hope to see if any questions get asked and the responses that we might get. I think all of us are, even if we don’t play PvP, wondering what will come of it.
Theres a sort of irony that this thread is rapidly turning into the back and forth battle the OP was talking about.
The ranger community seems more and more like the most divide on the forums.
Theres a sort of irony that this thread is rapidly turning into the back and forth battle the OP was talking about.
It amuzes me as well.
The ranger community seems more and more like the most divide on the forums.
That is why I feel that we have been treated as we have by ANet. Because we, unlike the other classes, have such a great divide between us.
Theres a sort of irony that this thread is rapidly turning into the back and forth battle the OP was talking about.
Heh, now that you mention it…
@OP
Anyway, this exchange won’t end as you refuse to say that rangers are ok, and I’ll never say that the QQers are right. Let’s just agree to disagree.
In the grand scheme of things, it won’t matter anyway. Nerfs and buffs will come, QQers will cry they are weak and the “defenders” will say that the class is fine.
First off in regards to pet damage – some of it was very, very OP. Pre-nerf I had my Jaguar dropping 18k+ maul crits in Arah when stacked with might and vulnerability on a target.
Ranger has an extremely high skill cap, and rewards a certain style of play in which you micro-manage a pet. It’s the only class (that I’m aware of) capable of putting on roughly 3.4k armor, while maintaining an attack rating of around 3k – and let’s not forget your pet, which is contributing another 2.5k attack of its own.
The class – when played to its strengths – can be a wrecking ball. The pet is essentially a force multiplier of nearly 2x, due to the fact that with proper pet management it will nearly never die in anything other than fotm 20+.
Coupled with the ability to drop the best water field in the game, as well as weapon sets that give thief-esque levels of combat disengagement, it is an absolute pain in the kitten to try and kill.
Of course the strength and weakness of the class is in both its skill floor and skill ceiling. Itis an exceptionally hard class to be able to play on a level that makes you as efficient as others, yet even harder still to win against them.
But is that a bad thing, necessarily? Not in my opinion. I’ve played ranger since beta, and will continue to play it purely because of what I can do with it
@OP
Anyway, this exchange won’t end as you refuse to say that rangers are ok, and I’ll never say that the QQers are right. Let’s just agree to disagree.In the grand scheme of things, it won’t matter anyway. Nerfs and buffs will come, QQers will cry they are weak and the “defenders” will say that the class is fine.
It’s sad that you think that those that realize the class needs more attention to make it more viable outside of PvP are QQers.
In the grand scheme of things, it does matter. The class is comparatively weak. We don’t live in a vacuum. We operate alongside 8 other classes, most of which are far more viable in all game modes. ‘Defend’ all you want, but you cannot change the fact that we are less viable than most other classes. And know that your ‘defending’ is part of what is holding us back.
Double post instead of an edit, kitten phone.
Anyway. I’m not saying that a ranger is without its faults – far from it. I’m instead trying to help put perspective on why some of us believe that the class isn’t as underpowered as people would portray.
Anyway. I’m not saying that a ranger is without its faults – far from it. I’m instead trying to help put perspective on why some of us believe that the class isn’t as underpowered as people would portray.
Some portray it as beyond broken. It is not. It is still viable in it’s own way. But with the same effort and gear, I can get far more from most of my alts. That is the issue.
I, myself, prefer to still play my ranger. I will not let class imbalance keep me from my favored class. But I tire of seeing endless defenders against any minor complaint to real class balance issues.
@OP
Anyway, this exchange won’t end as you refuse to say that rangers are ok, and I’ll never say that the QQers are right. Let’s just agree to disagree.In the grand scheme of things, it won’t matter anyway. Nerfs and buffs will come, QQers will cry they are weak and the “defenders” will say that the class is fine.
It’s sad that you think that those that realize the class needs more attention to make it more viable outside of PvP are QQers.
In the grand scheme of things, it does matter. The class is comparatively weak. We don’t live in a vacuum. We operate alongside 8 other classes, most of which are far more viable in all game modes. ‘Defend’ all you want, but you cannot change the fact that we are less viable than most other classes. And know that your ‘defending’ is part of what is holding us back.
I dunno, did you forget what I said earlier? I never said that the class is perfect. I want ANet to fix pet AI just as much as the next guy, but I absolutely hate it when people exaggerate their claims. It’s these outrageous claims from QQers that I’m against, not getting fixes. The original DD505 guide was bashing Beastmaster’s Might and Keen Edge. We now have improved versions that are much more useful than “1 stack of might for 5 seconds on signet use” and “Sharpening Stone when the ranger reaches 75% hp on an unknown cooldown.”
You make it sound like I want the ranger to stay the way it is right now. I don’t. But it’s certainly not as weak as people make it out to be. That’s what I’m defending against.
I guess this was lost in the huge walls of texts.
23261SynfulChaot.3169:Anyway. I’m not saying that a ranger is without its faults – far from it. I’m instead trying to help put perspective on why some of us believe that the class isn’t as underpowered as people would portray.
Some portray it as beyond broken. It is not. It is still viable in it’s own way. But with the same effort and gear, I can get far more from most of my alts. That is the issue.
I, myself, prefer to still play my ranger. I will not let class imbalance keep me from my favored class. But I tire of seeing endless defenders against any minor complaint to real class balance issues.
Deep within the bowels of the ranger forum, I have a post outlining everything I’ve found yo be broken with the class. Relatively speaking, it’s not as bad as people would think. Yes, rangers will likely always be kitten upon in PvE situations due to the reliance on an AI, but in a PvP scenario (not including zerg v zerg WvW here) that AI is the very thing that makes the class what it is. You’re always running around with your own force multiplier – always forcing someone to choose between dealing with the player, or the pet; and a good ranger can either overpower, lock the enemy into a stalemate forcing the other player to retreat or allow the ranger to disengage at their own will.
Frankly, there’s no other class that allows me to play like I can my ranger.
Exactly. Much of this divide comes from the difference of rangers in PvE and in PvP/WvW.
The problem is that this same divide exists for warriors, but in reverse. Warriors are gods in PvE, but are pretty weak in PvP. But despite this, they still band together in the forums and their voice is heard clearly.
We need to do the same. Agree that the class is in need of work and how, and present a unified voice, PvP and PvE alike, so ANet can see the class as all of us see it instead of needing to dig through the back and forth arguments that plague the ranger forums.
I don’t want to sound bias, but warriors in general sound like they will not be happy until their profession is an unstoppable juggernaut in all modes of play.
I don’t want to sound bias, but warriors in general sound like they will not be happy until their profession is an unstoppable juggernaut in all modes of play.
I don’t think that is entirely true. They may be unstoppable juggernauts in PvE, but they are iffy in WvW and weak in PvP. They do need work to their class as well. It’s just that they should probably not get those same buffs in PvE as they are already gods here.
Exactly. Much of this divide comes from the difference of rangers in PvE and in PvP/WvW.
The problem is that this same divide exists for warriors, but in reverse. Warriors are gods in PvE, but are pretty weak in PvP. But despite this, they still band together in the forums and their voice is heard clearly.
We need to do the same. Agree that the class is in need of work and how, and present a unified voice, PvP and PvE alike, so ANet can see the class as all of us see it instead of needing to dig through the back and forth arguments that plague the ranger forums.
There’s one EXTREMELY simple thing that ANet can do to “fix” pets in PvE, and that’s to do what Rift did with the Rogue’s pets – hell, it would even fix them in WvW zergs, should they decide to allow the implementation of it in PvP – that’s to give pets an immunity to ground-targeted AoE. Other than the pretty red circles on the ground, a ranger can micromanage a pet in order to make it survive. The limitations of AI just don’t allow for a pet to dodge out of an incoming one shot AoE, so the next best thing was chosen. I’ve been harking this on the forums ever since beta, but no one has decided to help me pitch it; everyone has been instead trying to redesign the class.
There’s one EXTREMELY simple thing that ANet can do to “fix” pets in PvE, and that’s to do what Rift did with the Rogue’s pets – hell, it would even fix them in WvW zergs, should they decide to allow the implementation of it in PvP – that’s to give pets an immunity to ground-targeted AoE. Other than the pretty red circles on the ground, a ranger can micromanage a pet in order to make it survive. The limitations of AI just don’t allow for a pet to dodge out of an incoming one shot AoE, so the next best thing was chosen. I’ve been harking this on the forums ever since beta, but no one has decided to help me pitch it; everyone has been instead trying to redesign the class.
That would help and I’d definitely be for that change. I think what I’ve read from Robert Hrouda (main dungeon dev and ranger player), though, is that they considered a limited AoE immunity for pets but found that to make them far too powerful instead of just bringing them in line with other classes. Also a basic AoE detection and avoidance would help so our pets don’t blindly stand in the red circles and at least try to get out of them would be nice.
I think very few people actually want pets removed entirely. I think we all just want something done about a very broken class mechanic that affects PvE players the most, WvW the next, and barely effects PvP.
I love running with my pet and would prefer to keep it by my side in most instances (jumping puzzles aside). To me, GW2 ranger equals pet + bow. That’s not all I run, but it’s what I prefer.
Deep within the bowels of the ranger forum, I have a post outlining everything I’ve found yo be broken with the class. Relatively speaking, it’s not as bad as people would think. Yes, rangers will likely always be kitten upon in PvE situations due to the reliance on an AI, but in a PvP scenario (not including zerg v zerg WvW here) that AI is the very thing that makes the class what it is. You’re always running around with your own force multiplier – always forcing someone to choose between dealing with the player, or the pet; and a good ranger can either overpower, lock the enemy into a stalemate forcing the other player to retreat or allow the ranger to disengage at their own will.
Frankly, there’s no other class that allows me to play like I can my ranger.
Just as a side question, how do you play? I’ve tried a couple builds in sPvP and I keep getting steamrolled by half the enemies in hotjoin.
But more to the point, ranger PvE is just… poor. Our sniping weapon (the longbow) is outdone by the mid-range 2h (shortbow), and pets become super squishy in places like dungeons (and especially boss battle or certain events). Unlike PvP, where your opponent can usually take on either the pet -or- the player, but not both, PvE generally has enough mechanics to attack both at the same time and for painfully large amounts of damage.
In PvP, I have the option to bring a cat or bird with me into the fray, and get away with it. At worst, I may be forced to swap it out on cooldown. But in PvE (dungeons specifically), I have to take a wolf, drake, or bear just to be forced into swapping my pet on CD. And even then? The wolf and drake pets can still die despite my efforts to maintain them.
(edited by Keyce.8137)
Exactly. Much of this divide comes from the difference of rangers in PvE and in PvP/WvW.
The problem is that this same divide exists for warriors, but in reverse. Warriors are gods in PvE, but are pretty weak in PvP. But despite this, they still band together in the forums and their voice is heard clearly.
We need to do the same. Agree that the class is in need of work and how, and present a unified voice, PvP and PvE alike, so ANet can see the class as all of us see it instead of needing to dig through the back and forth arguments that plague the ranger forums.
Just as a side question, how do you play? I’ve tried a couple builds in sPvP and I keep getting steamrolled by half the enemies in hotjoin.
But more to the point, ranger PvE is just… poor. Our sniping weapon (the longbow) is outdone by the mid-range 2h (shortbow), and pets become super squishy in places like dungeons (and especially boss battle or certain events). Unlike PvP, where your opponent can usually take on either the pet -or- the player, but not both, PvE generally has enough mechanics to attack both at the same time and for painfully large amounts of damage.
In PvP, I have the option to bring a cat or bird with me into the fray, and get away with it. At worst, I may be forced to swap it out on cooldown. But in PvE (dungeons specifically), I have to take a wolf, drake, or bear just to be forced into swapping my pet on CD. And even then? The wolf and drake pets can still die despite my efforts to maintain them.
I personally have been running either a pure zerker or Knight’s BM build, one as pure glass cannon with GS/SB and the other as more of a PvP oriented with GS/SB or GS/S+D depending. For PvE all I can tell you is watch your pet’s health like a hawk, and know when you need to call it back or be ready to hot swap. I’ve successfully done fotm 28+ with my BM build and running a jag+stalker, while only having them downed a couple of times. Always due to stray AoE.
Note: I don’t ever sPvP, nor tPvP. I despise it and the clinical feel to the matches; I always duo or solo roam in WvW, picking fights with groups.
(edited by ExpiredLifetime.1083)
I personally have been running either a pure zerker or Knight’s BM build, one as pure glass cannon with GS/SB and the other as more of a PvP oriented with GS/SB or GS/S+D depending. For PvE all I can tell you is watch your pet’s health like a hawk, and know when you need to call it back or be ready to hot swap. I’ve successfully done fotm 28+ with my BM build and running a jag+stalker, while only having them downed a couple of times. Always due to stray AoE.
Note: I don’t ever sPvP, nor tPvP. I despise it and the clinical feel to the matches; I always duo or solo roam in WvW, picking fights with groups.
Ah. I’m sorry for making that mistake!
I never really thought to use BM as a PvE spec, since I consider the lower damage on the ranger’s side (from traits) to be lower than other ranger specs (not focused on the pet and/or survivability). I still try to put at least 15 into BM for the swap cooldown, but I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that most of the melee weapon damage traits are in the same line as the one that stacks condition damage per trait point spent.
I personally have been running either a pure zerker or Knight’s BM build, one as pure glass cannon with GS/SB and the other as more of a PvP oriented with GS/SB or GS/S+D depending. For PvE all I can tell you is watch your pet’s health like a hawk, and know when you need to call it back or be ready to hot swap. I’ve successfully done fotm 28+ with my BM build and running a jag+stalker, while only having them downed a couple of times. Always due to stray AoE.
Note: I don’t ever sPvP, nor tPvP. I despise it and the clinical feel to the matches; I always duo or solo roam in WvW, picking fights with groups.
Ah. I’m sorry for making that mistake!
I never really thought to use BM as a PvE spec, since I consider the lower damage on the ranger’s side (from traits) to be lower than other ranger specs (not focused on the pet and/or survivability). I still try to put at least 15 into BM for the swap cooldown, but I just can’t wrap my head around the fact that most of the melee weapon damage traits are in the same line as the one that stacks condition damage per trait point spent.
20/20/0/0/30 with a short bow, piercing arrows, full zerker and a cat is your highest dps output as a ranger. Try that out sometime. A full 30 points into BM doubles your cat’s damage output while increasing its survivability drastically. All that you’re essentially losing is 10% crit damage, and 100 power.
And your melee traits add conditions damage and toughness. Although with trait trees, you generally want to ignore the stats you gain from them and instead focus on the traits themselves.
20/20/0/0/30 with a short bow, piercing arrows, full zerker and a cat is your highest dps output as a ranger. Try that out sometime. A full 30 points into BM doubles your cat’s damage output while increasing its survivability drastically. All that you’re essentially losing is 10% crit damage, and 100 power.
And your melee traits add conditions damage and toughness. Although with trait trees, you generally want to ignore the stats you gain from them and instead focus on the traits themselves.
Yeah, I know I should go for traits over stats, but it still bugs me that Wilderness Survival seems to be pointing players into two different directions at once – flat damage through melee weapon traits, or condition damage just with points. But the sword and greatsword are both poor choices for a condition build, I think.
sdlkfdlsgd I just hate that.
Actually, I was just discussing 20 into skirmishing and 30 into BM with a guildie, using the traits offered in both trees to increase the amount of healing on the pet (increased healing, natural regen, heal on crits). Would that be useful in that build, or would it just be better to pick up more damaging majors?
Shall we move the discussion back to rangers and it’s current state and away from specific builds?
Not that I don’t think that we should discuss builds. I really do. But it is wildly off topic.
20/20/0/0/30 with a short bow, piercing arrows, full zerker and a cat is your highest dps output as a ranger. Try that out sometime. A full 30 points into BM doubles your cat’s damage output while increasing its survivability drastically. All that you’re essentially losing is 10% crit damage, and 100 power.
And your melee traits add conditions damage and toughness. Although with trait trees, you generally want to ignore the stats you gain from them and instead focus on the traits themselves.
Yeah, I know I should go for traits over stats, but it still bugs me that Wilderness Survival seems to be pointing players into two different directions at once – flat damage through melee weapon traits, or condition damage just with points. But the sword and greatsword are both poor choices for a condition build, I think.
sdlkfdlsgd I just hate that.
Actually, I was just discussing 20 into skirmishing and 30 into BM with a guildie, using the traits offered in both trees to increase the amount of healing on the pet (increased healing, natural regen, heal on crits). Would that be useful in that build, or would it just be better to pick up more damaging majors?
A sword+dagger is your most evasive, tanky, downright annoying weapon set possible. That trait line is actually more defensively focused than it is for conditions (look at your master and grandmaster traits), and that’s one line I don’t run without when I’m running a bunker setup.
But your idea you were talking about? That’s basically what I’ve run as a glass cannon setup for nearly a year now, and a cat will face tank better than 99% of players you’re going to run across like that. Key bind your F3 and F4 skills to something you can hit at a moment’s notice, and figure out which of the boss’ AoE attacks you can simply tell the pet to “come” with F3 to get the thing out of a circle and keep it from dying, without wasting a hot swap cool down. Certain bosses will still eat your pet for breakfast regardless of how well you can micro them though.
Yeah.. sorry about that. I’ve just been wracking my brain to find an adequate build for my two girls with a greater explanation than just a bunch of slashes, numbers, and a gear set.
I think it’d help if we could agree with what’s wrong with rangers. Instead of every time someone complains about a portion someone else pops up telling them they’re wrong.
Anyone who believes pets aren’t broken are flat out wrong. Bad pathing, inability to hit mobile targets, can’t avoid AoE/high damage attacks, and there’s one whole build where they’re viable. Pets are BAD.
Inevitably, someone is going to tell me to cripple my target so my pet can hit. That’s great and all, but it shouldn’t be required for the other half of my damage to hit. Imagine if a warrior only dealt full damage to crippled foes? People would be screaming. Same with any class, aside from us.
For the pet survivability issue, your choices are to either build entirely around your pet, or accept it’s going to die, all the time. Again, if any other class faces losing half their damage whenever there were lots of AoE around, or a single high target attack, there’d be screaming. For rangers, it’s par for the course.
Solution? Lots of people (I count 1824 separate posters in the last 4 months) calling for pet removal. Outright perma-stow and fix rangers skill coefficients so we deal normal damage (normal as in not 40% weaker than everyone else, because: pet.)
Or they could add some AoE damage reduction, and extend the pet’s range of attack. (If they’re not going to allow perma-stowing, this makes the most sense)
That’s the first glaring issue with the ranger covered. The pets.
Second issue is group utility. Right now, that’s limited to Healing Spring and Muddy Ground. There’s nothing else rangers bring to a fight that someone else can’t do better. The ideal solution? Fix spirits.
Spirits should be invulnerable, like warrior banners. That leaves a trait that can be remade into something else (hopefully not pet related, since we have 49 pet traits already) and allow for spirit based builds. That’s it – one change, and spirits become reasonably useful. The internal cool down needs to be addressed, but I’m not even sure Anet is aware that’s an issue.
Last issue, and it was mentioned above – our traits. Every class has 75 traits to choose from. For rangers, 49 of them revolve around the pet. Now, I figure there should be 15 pet traits (All in beastmaster line, obviously) and the rest should be related to US.
Later, I’ll make a separate post with our current traits, and what they should (could) be.
well one problem with the devs, and this forum, is that the majority of rangers are quite, bad. Not as persons, but as players. They whine about a class that is “UP” and all this and that, while completely denying the fact that it IS quite ok.
Sure the class itself has tonns of problems, many related to pets, and makitten ues (like the illogical “obstructed” while on a flat surface bug).
Another issue of the class is that people think there is only 2-3 viable builds at all. Fact is, there is many. Some are more efficient then others, in different areas of the game.
You got my personal favorite – crit tanker, and you got the trapper build, the BM build, glasscannon, power-tank and condition-crit. All of these are good, in their own respect, however the blatantly naive and constant focus on BM and trapper build has rendered the evolution of any other build nearly impossible. People only think that BM and trapper is what you got. YOU DONT. You can use the others too, but they require you to be way more interactive with the game then per say, BM.
My favorite, the crit tanker build does not give you the outright nightmarish tenacity of a BM build, however it gives you massive damage, and a reasonable amount of survivability too.
To improve this class, and to make the devs listen, we, the rangers, must first realize that the class is more then going BM/trapper and facerolling over idiots who can’t combat it.
That being said – most of you guys are way too negative. Sure we get a nerf every patch, but that nerf usually opens new doors, doors you might not know of.
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