Guild Wars 2

I am sticking with the spirit ranger because it is still good in sPvP.

But I haven;t played it in a while, and I was getting owned by a Sword/Pistol thief today in hotjoin who kept LOSing me with pillars then jumping in and back to a distance on Henge in Forest of Niflel.

What was my ideal way to fight him?

Ignore him. They’re squishy, but they’ll get stealth from CnD on your pet or any of spirits anytime good thief wants and keep resetting the fight.

the correct way to counter any type of thief: kill it
the wrong way to counter any type of thief: die

Prysin.8542:

the correct way to counter any type of thief: kill it
the wrong way to counter any type of thief: die

This is not helpful.

I am guessing you really don;t have any knowledge about the correct tactics for a spirit ranger to use on a pistol-sword thief.

Any experienced spirit rangers want to give some expert advice? Thanks.

I can’t give anything exact yet without knowing more about the build he was running.

For instance:
What was his other weapon set?
What heal was he using?
How was he playing? As in, was he literally jumping in, doing one Pistol Whip, and jumping out? Or would he jump in, attack as much as possible, and then get out?

jcbroe.4329:

I can’t give anything exact yet without knowing more about the build he was running.

For instance:
What was his other weapon set?
What heal was he using?
How was he playing? As in, was he literally jumping in, doing one Pistol Whip, and jumping out? Or would he jump in, attack as much as possible, and then get out?

Yes, jump into the henge point from the top, stun, pistol whip, disappear.

I switched to melee weapons and stood in a burning AOE, but he wore me down.

Maybe I should have left the point and got on top and ranged him until he came up after me, and so on?

That’s a fine tactic. If he was after the point and you left to range him up top, he would would have had to spend all his initiative avoiding your attacks to try to cap the point, at which point you’d be able to just hop back on the point and push him off because without initiative he wouldn’t be able to sit on the point with you.

Another thing would be to just avoid as many of the stuns from pistol whip as possible. If you can dodge the pistol whip, its pretty much a one trick pony setup, and they can’t really do anything else to you without getting killed themselves.

However, if he was running a Sleight of Hand build that dazed on steal before the pistol whip, that wouldn’t really be an option. He would be able to steal to you every 20 seconds, daze you, get a bunch of boons, and pistol whip you, without you really being able to do much of anything other than positioning like you mentioned, or predicting his steal and avoiding it.

I’m surprised he didn’t just use the ranger’s steal skill on point and blast finish it repeatedly with shortbow 2. Dead spirits, pet, and 1/2 hp ranger, and full hp thief…

jcbroe.4329:

That’s a fine tactic. If he was after the point and you left to range him up top, he would would have had to spend all his initiative avoiding your attacks to try to cap the point, at which point you’d be able to just hop back on the point and push him off because without initiative he wouldn’t be able to sit on the point with you.

Another thing would be to just avoid as many of the stuns from pistol whip as possible. If you can dodge the pistol whip, its pretty much a one trick pony setup, and they can’t really do anything else to you without getting killed themselves.

However, if he was running a Sleight of Hand build that dazed on steal before the pistol whip, that wouldn’t really be an option. He would be able to steal to you every 20 seconds, daze you, get a bunch of boons, and pistol whip you, without you really being able to do much of anything other than positioning like you mentioned, or predicting his steal and avoiding it.

Yes, I think he was doing the daze on Steal thing. I should have gotten distance as soon as I survived the first round of that nonsense…but I was unfamiliar with it and didn’t know at the time what he was doing.

kekuso.5837:

I’m surprised he didn’t just use the ranger’s steal skill on point and blast finish it repeatedly with shortbow 2. Dead spirits, pet, and 1/2 hp ranger, and full hp thief…

Yes, he could have done that as well. This game is deeper than a lot of people realize.

Rym.1469:

Ignore him. They’re squishy, but they’ll get stealth from CnD on your pet or any of spirits anytime good thief wants and keep resetting the fight.

This comment might give us insight into why Sick Em reveal is possibly interesting as opposed to bland. I mean, I’m learning right along with you guys…that was probably obvious to a lot of you.

Axe #5 = GG

Axe #5 = GG

Only if the thief spams shortbow or heartseeker will that do anything. But it’s a good tool for sure. Does it stop the thief from choosing to reset the fight though? I think that’s the question at hand.

Chopps.5047:

Rym.1469:

Ignore him. They’re squishy, but they’ll get stealth from CnD on your pet or any of spirits anytime good thief wants and keep resetting the fight.

This comment might give us insight into why Sick Em reveal is possibly interesting as opposed to bland. I mean, I’m learning right along with you guys…that was probably obvious to a lot of you.

Except that it doesn’t make any sense for this thread because its a sword/pistol thief, which doesn’t use stealth…

Maybe not, but shadow refuge is on a lot of thieves’ bars.

Pvp.2758:

Axe #5 = GG

Axe #5 = GG

…What? The thief can just shadow step away again with sword 2, wait for 5 seconds, and then go right back in to what they were doing…

@Rest of thread; we do know that we’re talking about a Sword/Pistol thief, right? No daggers, no stealths except maybe the heal (which wouldn’t setup any sort of burst at all on this weapon set) and/or shadow refuge, which means that the thief is giving up the objective to heal and losing the game for their team, AND they can’t burst you from stealth.

Its a sword auto attack, a shadow step in and out, a stun into multi-hit while evading but rooted burst attack, an interrupt, and a smoke field.

Hope that clears up some of the confusion.

But with sick em you can prevent that shadow refuge retreat if you time it right. I think that’s the power of the utility. Not saying you need it or that it’s how you play this build of thief. I’m just trying to point of the relevance of sick em to theif SRing away. That’s all

Chopps.5047:

But with sick em you can prevent that shadow refuge retreat if you time it right. I think that’s the power of the utility.

But that’s not even the discussion right now lol. I’m not disagreeing with you. But Sic’ Em hasn’t been changed yet and when it does, it will be the tactic to deal with Shadow Refuge.

As for the rest of the fight, the thief would actually have to get damaged enough to have to use shadow refuge, meaning that up until that point, Sic’ Em isn’t the only solution versus this build. Nice plug though haha.

Especially if it’s the ridiculously annoying build I’m imagining: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsa8alcmiOXcS5E+5Eh3DyOWzqVgmdPuqWrKA-TwAg0CnIqRVjrGTNyas1MsYZxGiJEA

Or some variant.

Lol all I’m saying is the reason I brought it up is because someone mentioned SR. ahaha miscommunication and stuff makes me laugh. Heh

Yeah lol. I was just reading through and went “wait, where did CnD come from?” That right there is actually extremely interesting if we wanted to evaluate what people think when they think about thieves.

Some bad advice going on in here, so I’ll clear a bit up (and catch some flak for sure). First, if he was popping in and out, he wants you to chase him off point so he can decap when you leave, so you don’t want to do that. Try and los him (you can get off point, but stay close enough so that you can quickly get back on) and evade any burst (thieves usually burst about 2-2.5s after they stealth, so if you take your time and count, you can evade properly to avoid that initial daze immob. Ping the map to signal for help because if you’re using spirits you can’t do much against him to stop him from diving and retreating. Axe 5 is a good way to get yourself killed.

TL;DR (You really should have) Your best defense against this as a spirit ranger is positioning and proper evasion timing.

Would you suggest the untraited dagger evade? I’m afraid serpent’s strike would pull me out of the circle.

Chopps.5047:

Would you suggest the untraited dagger evade? I’m afraid serpent’s strike would pull me out of the circle.

I personally don’t like the untraited dagger evade, but for that case, untraited is better because it barely moves you. That’s the reason I don’t like it, I prefer heavy mobility and quick movement, which that skill lacks without the trait. Plus, when traited (and targeting foes) it seems to track much better, almost always hitting.

Back to the topic, I don’t see many s/p thieves and therefore lack experience fighting them. I mostly see p/d (perma stealth) and s/d (boon strip + mobility) as they tend to be more effective in the current meta.

Rym.1469:

Ignore him. They’re squishy, but they’ll get stealth from CnD on your pet or any of spirits anytime good thief wants and keep resetting the fight.

It’s a sword- pistol thief…they dont have CnD…..

Indoles.1467:

Some bad advice going on in here, so I’ll clear a bit up (and catch some flak for sure). First, if he was popping in and out, he wants you to chase him off point so he can decap when you leave, so you don’t want to do that. Try and los him (you can get off point, but stay close enough so that you can quickly get back on) and evade any burst (thieves usually burst about 2-2.5s after they stealth, so if you take your time and count, you can evade properly to avoid that initial daze immob. Ping the map to signal for help because if you’re using spirits you can’t do much against him to stop him from diving and retreating. Axe 5 is a good way to get yourself killed.

TL;DR (You really should have) Your best defense against this as a spirit ranger is positioning and proper evasion timing.

Though the mentally counting when he enters stealth is a good advice anti stealth (and when you’ve played a Thief you become nearly inmune to backstabs as you learn to predict every stealth move) some of that “bad” advice included jcbroe telling you guys anti stealth tactis aren’t the way to go here because S/P doesn’t have stealth, and most times if it has any, it’s to scape (which in sPvP is very negative for your team unlike WvW roaming), not to fight and burst.

That base he mentioned can be very tricky with lines of sight, so the Thief can use multiple teleports in and out without getting hit by your shots . He can’t stay there if he wants to fight the Thieg, even if he is forced to leave the point, the Thief won’t capture it without killing him (unlike other professions, the Thief can’t rely on capturing just by standing on point, he has to make sure he finished with his opponents, he can’t stay on place if he is getting attacked), and the best way for the Thief to kill him if he knows how to exploit line of sight with his teleports is that he stays inside.

It was already mentioned to try to get to a better position to shoot him down. I’d recommend to get some stun breakers (though as a Spirit Herder you probably don’t have space for it) beause that build takes a huge ton of initiative (and many times relies on hitting to get some initiative back with the critical strikes trait line), so if you manage to evade and/or stun break his Pistol Whips (he will probably use Steal and other teleports midcast of Pistol Whip so the animation hits as soon as he teleports, for your setup it might be a bit tricky to fight) he will be forced to run or rely on just auto attack. Check his stats bar, if you don’t see shadow return symbol or Signet of Infiltration then he is probably out of stun breakers and teleports, except Sword 2, but at least he can’t combo teleport+Pistol Whip.

This is a bit of Paper versus Rock situation, as that build is very vulnerable against movement skills and stun breakers, but if you’re a Spirit Herder you won’t have many of them. You can still beat him if you learn to predict him and get clear shots, but the last thing you should do is stay inside to get nuked while you can’t hit him. If you know you will die, either try to survive long enough for your allies to arrive, or help them where they need.

Thanks for the great discussion,(even if there were some misdirections due to not reading other replies closely enough. I still like it that peole tried to be constructive).

This discussion also sheds doubt on people who proclaim int he Forums, “I can take ANY class 1v1. I never lose”. Obviously the game is more complex than that and there are going to be builds they have not seen before, and do not know how to counter.

Hello, I was playing on my sword/pistol thief that time, and I played against some ranger on henge, exploiting pillars to LoS, so it’s like 99% chance it was me.

Since I don’t consider you a very dangerous opponent, let me show you my complete build (notice how runes work with elite and healing skill):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQNAsaVlYmyO3eS6E/5Ey2jKcn4JuCOV3DuS+sKA-TsAg0CnIKSVkrITRyisFNsY9xECA

So, by using spirits and being around pillars to LoS you don’t have any chances. I will cleave them with auto attack and pistol whip in seconds, and hide with shadow return behind pillar if you pop some dangerous cd, like that burning field.

My weakness are constant, heavy conditions, which greatly reduce my damage output, because it takes initiative to cleanse them. Condition bombs don’t work, you need to have solid dps with them.

Another problem is stability, which greatly reduces my damage output aswell, since you are immune to stun and move out from pistol whip’s range. If I waste a few pistol whips, the only thing I can do is to hide in stealth to regain initiative, or run.

PS: so, if you don’t want to change build, I advice to either call for help, or run to another node.

this is a video that specifically addresses how to counter theives hope it helps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq8BJrmrUaU

1. do not get backstabbed to help you do this, you need to go to control options and keybind about face. Once u keybind this it will give u the ability to turn face towards your enemy at will to avoid being backstabbed.
2. I believe u asked how to fight a dagger/pistol theif, fighting a dagger pistol theif requires knowledge how the theifs pattern. It is safe to generalize that all dagger/pistol theifs will follow the same pattern of blackpowder-heartseeker (for stealth)-followed by a backstab (automatic from stealth). This literally allows them to be not seen while taking a huge chunk of your health right away, once they use this combination they run out of initiative but will quickly regain a lot of it to repeat the process.
Counter strategy:
Now to explain your general counter as a ranger and from what you see in the video will give you more details. There are several options but it is highly based on your dps and build. With a regeneration build its easy to just recover all the hp you lost and only requires using your about face keybind to counter the backstab before going into your kill rotation. Without a regeneration build, its a bit trickier but very much possible. Step 1: as soon as you see a red circle on the ground assume the theif will heartseeker to you, and use up their initiative. You can A-dodgeroll, use a leap to create space (hornets sting, monarchs leap or swoop) , or lastly use a block/evade such as from your greatsword or sword. The important thing is once you do this you need to use your about face keybind to counter the backstab, then switch into your kill rotation which you would like to start with by using a cc such as point blank shot then rapid fire (with longbow). Tip: rapid fire tracks theives even while they are in stealth.If you use a short bow it will be your concussion shot first, or you can send your pet in for the cc if you use any that can knockdown foes when it comes to the pet i prefer jaguar cause the theif cannot even see it and it is a guaranteed 100percent crit chance while it is in stealth. I really hope this will informative please whisper or mail me if anything else.
I do main a ranger but i use the shout build with natures voice trait. Shouts used are sick em and guard third utility being signet of renewal, heal skill being troll unguent, healing spring works too for more condition removal.

woooooowwwww!, i just posted this whole thing then realized he was asking about sword/pistol theif not dagger pistol theif!!! In any case, the video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq8BJrmrUaU
does describe how to fight sword/pistol theives so please do check it out:)
I do not fight sword/pistol theives often, I do know they tend to teleport to you then use pistol whip and then they can retreat at will with their sword number two. Once you figure out the theives pattern you should definitely have a defensive skill evade/block for once they reach within your range and stun you with pistol whip because you will have one second before you are hit with a flurry of strikes after the pistol whip stun.

Sure been some time since I last went on forum. What I did yesterday (in WvW… yes I usually do PvP as well) against a P/S thief was just shooting him down with my long bow. Step up close? Numbre 4. Keep shooting him from the distance. Stepped up close again? Numbre 3 stealth and ran away. Then rapid fire. Barrage my area since he’s coming close to me. Numbre 4 again… and repeat whatever above (number 3, 2, etc). Barrage your area when he goes stealth. And if you are Rapid Firing him and he turns stealth, your rapid fire will still aim at him even though you dont see him.

Killed a warrior, necro and a thief but got epically owned by a Guardian that does a somehow powerful spin to win. o_o Anyone knows why that Guardian 2-hand sword spin attack struck me 75% of my life?

Well, thanks for Dagins for revealing the situation, I see why I lost the fight so easily.

I guess I needed to leave the point and attack from range where I could have more time to apply conditions.

But according to the thief, it was impossible to win against his build with a spirit ranger.

Do expert spirit rangers here agree with him?

You don’t counter pistol whip with NPCs, because it hits multiple targets (3). The more mobs you have, the higher damage I deal (it also quickly restores my initiative via 15 CS trait). Killing your spirits leave you without utility slots, what means I gain great advantage. Mesmers are in bad situation aswell.

But as long as you deal damage and regenerate health, in theory you can kill me. However, it will cost you tons of focus and awarness, while I could simply faceroll you.

Dagins,

Thanks for the explanation. It does sound like a rock breaks scissors deal. Well , now I will have to outfit my thief to your build and give it a try. Sounds interesting. I like variety, so I keep trying new things and probably should take more time to absolutely master one before trying another. But I enjoy the novelty in trying new things.

Dagins, so what is your strongest counter? Who do you tend to lose to?… as a spirit ranger would tend to lose to your build?

There is far too much evasion and mobility in this thief build for you to keep up with using direct damage. They also boon steal so it is likely any protection that is coming up is being stolen and used against you. Condition pressure or control abilities are likely the best way to handle this particular thief build and honestly the best way to handle most thief builds. As always do whatever you must to keep your health above 50%.

In general, conditions force a thief out of the fight because virtually every condi removal ability a thief is likely running requires stealthing or teleporting. Thieves also have practically zero stability (unless they are stealing it from you) or popping an elite.

If you want to counter me, consider arming yourself with elements from this list:
- high toughness,
- constant condition damage, multiple conditions at the same time to prevent their clensing,
- healing skill hard to interrupt, high regeneration,
- vigor, protection, stability and retaliation boons (this one totally wrecks me),
- ranged combat,
- blind,
- cooperation with teammates.

That means, I am almost entirely countered by condi warrior with sword/sword + longbow with rabid amulet, and also condi engineers.

… And if you want to lose:
- rely on NPCs,
- play glass cannon,
- only melee combat,
- low mobility,
- stay passive (some people just stay and drool as I pummel their beautiful faces, ignoring my high damage output and interrupts),
- long channeling skills,
- stupid dodge to close gap/run away faster or just to gain short buff (one more clone, protection, etc),
- stand in smoke field like nothing happens (I noticed rangers like to stand in these small flame fields, so I just put on top of them some smoke to make it feel more realistic).

That’s all I have on my mind now. Maybe I left something, but it’s time to sleep.

Dagins.5163:

- ranged combat,
…
- only melee combat,

I agree with most of your recommendations but a decently played bunker condi or regen rangers with a sword is a rough fight for most thieves. They typically sit on 22k hp, 3k toughness, often constant regen, the sword/off hand give ridiculous number of evades and they stack a lot of different condition types. Hardest solo ranger fights I have are against these particularly since the regen variety has a pet with teeth and cannot be ignored.

When I see the bow come out I generally feel as though I have a big advantage since it requires targeting and has limited condition type application. This is especially true of the longbow which will get a very quick steal and melee reaction from me.

Sounds like you just got outplayed son

Inverted.7439:

Sounds like you just got outplayed son

And this is useful, how?

I came here and admitted I got outplayed. So I am trying to learn and asked how to be better here.

What’s your point, really?

Actually, let me ask, what spirit build setup are you running?

I don’t need crazy specifics, just the amulet and weapon choices.

I played S/P for 8 months and had no issues with spirit rangers,ever.
Will blow up your spirits all day it’s part of what the set excels at.
There are other ranger builds that were a pain in the kitten to face over those months but none of them were spirit based. RaO is a definite pain unless running Bountiful theft, as once it pops it makes a fight a headache.

jcbroe.4329:

Actually, let me ask, what spirit build setup are you running?

I don’t need crazy specifics, just the amulet and weapon choices.

Forge runes, carrion amulet. Hyena/Wolf.

And these traits:

I’m assuming the other weaponset is sword/dagger?

jcbroe.4329:

I’m assuming the other weaponset is sword/dagger?

Sword torch to go with the forge runes/burning extension.

Okay, well, the reason why I’m asking is because even with the the forge runes, the carrion version of the build is, as it was put, “rock/paper/scissor’d” by the thief build, and burst builds in general.

A solution to this is to just carry a Shamans amulet to swap out for the Carrion, and an Axe/Dagger to switch out for the shortbow. You can do this in the middle of the game in hotjoins, but if you’re in a tournament, you kind of have to read the other teams composition to know whether or not its going to be a matchup where you need more toughness or more vitality, and switch accordingly before gear and traits and such get locked in.

Because in general, the Carrion build is better against high condition output teams, because the vitality is a buffer for the condition damage. However, because of it’s low toughness levels, and it’s reliance on sustained damage output and less burst than axe/dagger, it is at a disadvantage against the thief who is built to avoid as much damage as possible while jumping in and out of melee range, doing as much damage as possible.

The axe/dagger allows you to have lots of readily available evasion frames (dagger 4) and landing a splitblade or dagger 5 (or both) is going to be a lot better against the thief than anything you can do with the shortbow, since the shortbow is very incapable of bursting conditions comparatively.

Just a thought. I realized if it was the carrion setup, you would be fighting an uphill battle regardless.

Jroh,

That makes sense. I appreciate your helpfulness! Thanks!