Guild Wars 2

then don’t change anything with the skill except reducing it’s projectile speed.

Results? Noobs are easy to hit close & far, skilled players can evade the arrows by timing their left/right strafes correctly.

Easy form for the handicapped people:
Rapid fire with reduced projectile speed leads to
-Skilled players can evade the arrows by strafing left and right
-Noobs will still be owned from distance
-Ambushes still possible

kitten I don’t have to write this… Any good ranger can figure out what slower RF means…

I wonder what FluffBall and the bunch will say ’bout this

(Keep in mind that this is a change I suggest only for the scenario of anet deciding that the skill must be changed!)

Read the Wind is a grandmaster trait investment to allow the longbow to hit moving targets reliably.

Without Read the Wind, the longbow can miss up to 100% of its shots if the target is strafing. The target wouldn’t even have to use its evade, block, dodge, blind, aegis, projectile block or projectile reflect. Almost any movement would avoid many hits from the longbow, even if they’re not trying to avoid it.

It’s also spending a trait slot which could be used for great traits like: Eagle Eye, Piercing Arrows, Spotter, Remorseless and Predator’s Onslaught.

Read the Wind is the best thing to happen to the Longbow for the PvP/WvW environment. It has single-handedly revived the weapon 6 months before any Rapid Fire buff came along.

Avoiding a longbow without Read the Wind doesn’t require any skill.

That is litterally the worst thing they could change about it, IMO.

solrik.6028:

then don’t change anything with the skill except reducing it’s projectile speed.

Results? Noobs are easy to hit close & far, skilled players can evade the arrows by timing their left/right strafes correctly.

Easy form for the handicapped people:
Rapid fire with reduced projectile speed leads to
-Skilled players can evade the arrows by strafing left and right
-Noobs will still be owned from distance
-Ambushes still possible

kitten I don’t have to write this… Any good ranger can figure out what slower RF means…

I wonder what FluffBall and the bunch will say ’bout this

(Keep in mind that this is a change I suggest only for the scenario of anet deciding that the skill must be changed!)

Don’t we need the number of shots halved for this to work? I mean if you don’t change the channel time, how will that work?

Instead of halving its channel time they could have started with -25% channel time. Doesn’t matter though since people are still getting mowed down by lb rangers before and after the patch any buff to the skill will illicit crying.

you pay 6 points to it and thus limiting your other options, it deserves the power. You know what else guaranteed hits? mesmer beam.

Holland.9351:

Read the Wind is a grandmaster trait investment to allow the longbow to hit moving targets reliably.

Without Read the Wind, the longbow can miss up to 100% of its shots if the target is strafing. The target wouldn’t even have to use its evade, block, dodge, blind, aegis, projectile block or projectile reflect. Almost any movement would avoid many hits from the longbow, even if they’re not trying to avoid it.

It’s also spending a trait slot which could be used for great traits like: Eagle Eye, Piercing Arrows, Spotter, Remorseless and Predator’s Onslaught.

Read the Wind is the best thing to happen to the Longbow for the PvP/WvW environment. It has single-handedly revived the weapon 6 months before any Rapid Fire buff came along.

Avoiding a longbow without Read the Wind doesn’t require any skill.

The problem most people are having with RF is that it’s a very easy to use build which required almost no effort to kill other people. Skilled players will easily predict RF and avoid it, then continue with killing the ranger. The problem is that the zerker RF build will always be powerful in an Average Player VS Average Player game. The actual problem is that it’s too easy to use for having 1500 range.

Next problem that “Average Player” has with RF is that it’s 1500 range and nothing can be done against it because it ‘seems so fast’.

By decreasing projectile speed, RF will give the “Average Player” a chance to react and evade, whilst the more skilled players strafe left and right in rythm to avoid the arrows (which, believe me, is not easy)

You missed a very important thing about strafing. The player has to strafe in rythm with how the ranger is shooting. Strafing too early will cause the arrow to hit, strafing to late will also cause the arrow to hit. Strafing too little will cause the arrow to not be fired slightly to the side, strafing too much will make the arrow go the the sides but will also hit due to over-strafing. There is much more to it than you think.

Read the Wind is unnecessary in sPvP because people don’t care about dodging the arrows. It may be important in WvW (yes, I have used rtw and liked it) but it’s only useful when over 900 range. From then the flight time is short enough to not miss.

That, in turn, applies to RF (if it’s projectile speed is reduced). It will be risky to use RF at long range because of it’s projectile speed (because of potential misses) but it will become more accurate at closer (note the ‘r’) range.

Keep in mind, this only applies if anet decides that RF must be changed

nagymbear.5280:

solrik.6028:

then don’t change anything with the skill except reducing it’s projectile speed.

Results? Noobs are easy to hit close & far, skilled players can evade the arrows by timing their left/right strafes correctly.

Easy form for the handicapped people:
Rapid fire with reduced projectile speed leads to
-Skilled players can evade the arrows by strafing left and right
-Noobs will still be owned from distance
-Ambushes still possible

kitten I don’t have to write this… Any good ranger can figure out what slower RF means…

I wonder what FluffBall and the bunch will say ’bout this

(Keep in mind that this is a change I suggest only for the scenario of anet deciding that the skill must be changed!)

Don’t we need the number of shots halved for this to work? I mean if you don’t change the channel time, how will that work?

The arrows RF fires will just fly slower, arc more. It wouldn’t affect anything else in any way except that the first and last hit would occur 0.2 seconds later. ( I puller that number out of my bum)

Cufufalating.8479:

That is litterally the worst thing they could change about it, IMO.

Why?

Damage is the same, Functionality is the same, everything is the same.

What is change is that the first and last arrow will hit a tiny bit later.

Would you rather have the damage nerfed, vulnerability removed, have it made into a static skill like whirling axe, range decreased or cooldown increased?

This isn’t even worth discussing imo. Rapid Fire isn’t too strong and doesn’t deserve any nerfs. A good developer balances for skill, not the skill level of bad players, and if ANet is going to promote a balanced product, then they will stick to their guns with the update.

IF ANYTHING, a global nerf needs to be implemented so that Air and Fire sigils either cannot be proc’d at the same time and/or cannot be used on the same weapon. They are what is creating issues with ridiculously fast times to kill, and even 1 shot mechanics, but it isn’t something specific to any class, and rather, an issue with all strong burst options in the game.

GW2 is already a dying game, it doesn’t need to pander to the worst possible denominator of players, it will just kill the remaining populations motivation to play even more and all that will be left are the mouthbreathers.

quaniesan.8497:

you pay 6 points to it and thus limiting your other options, it deserves the power. You know what else guaranteed hits? mesmer beam.

You can’t simply just take 2 skills and compare them. The argument is invalid because the (mesmer) greatsword doesn’t have the same function as the (ranger) longbow.

But sure….
(Opposite of one applies to the other)

Long Range Shot:
-Projectile finisher
-Traits that improve the skill directly
-Has an actual range of around 1800 with traits

Spatial Surge:
-33% slower
-Fixed range

The big difference i that Mesmer GS is mostly damage and one CC on 30s CD, while ranger LB is damage, stealth, knockback all three on short CD, plus Barrage which is AoE.

I write it here too, this only applies if anet decides that RF must be changed

GW2 is not a dying game. Its normal to lose customers over time especially if its without a monthly subscription and level of content WoW puts out. Having said that, the game is still going healthy and the release in China was huge afaik. Wait for the unconfirmed expansion pack and the EU and NA numbers will spike back up again.

Back to the topic at hand. There are plenty of anti ranged options in the game. Thus far there was no reason for any of it to be used outside of PvE/dungeons/fractals. The ranged component of the game was missing. The bow using sniper arhetype has just appeared in the game 2 weeks ago and many people are very slow to adapt. The PvP and experienced WvW crew are all saying it is not OP in the slightest.

I will give 2 examples. Does anyone remember Tequatl or Marionette when they first came out? Those events were the hardest thing on earth. After a weak or two even the average joe learned the machanics and the fights became routine. People will figure it out in WvW roaming. In PvP and organized WvW zergs its already a non issue.

Also remember, a ranger attacking you from the side while you are anchored in a fight with someone else is SUPPOSED to nuke you. It is a long range sniper without any real defense if full glass (and if you are getting hit by those numbers its a 66xxx build)

jcbroe.4329:

This isn’t even worth discussing imo. Rapid Fire isn’t too strong and doesn’t deserve any nerfs. A good developer balances for skill, not the skill level of bad players, and if ANet is going to promote a balanced product, then they will stick to their guns with the update.

IF ANYTHING, a global nerf needs to be implemented so that Air and Fire sigils either cannot be proc’d at the same time and/or cannot be used on the same weapon. They are what is creating issues with ridiculously fast times to kill, and even 1 shot mechanics, but it isn’t something specific to any class, and rather, an issue with all strong burst options in the game.

GW2 is already a dying game, it doesn’t need to pander to the worst possible denominator of players, it will just kill the remaining populations motivation to play even more and all that will be left are the mouthbreathers.

Read again, I don’t want RF to be nerfed.
This is a discussion about what would be the best change to RF in order to make it easier to avoid, for an (according to anet) “Average Player”.

The first paragraph of yours is wrong, because any company will always prioritise the average population. 90% of bad players who continue to play the game means more money than those 10% who are very skilled.

Still, all this is irrelevant because this is a thread for discussing what would be the best change to RF if anet decides to change it. There is nothing more to it.
No need to bring up how much you think this game fails.

Btw, not trolling, how do you know it’s dying?

I’d much rather see them change SotW and see if that draws down the crying some first. While RF is arguably doing too much damage, SotW is undeniably overbudget.

If it is determined that RF is still doing too much damage, then I’d consider moving the vuln back to something else. Perhaps remove it entirely along with the remorseless trait and simply make Hunter’s Shot reset openning strikes base.

But speaking seriously, isn’t the current RF exactly what Ranger’s had before the patch if they used QZ in addition to it? 10% faster due to RtW I imagine?

[edit…] I also wanted to add that I somewhat agree with JC that neither the cooldown or damage are really a problem with the skill. The only reason I am really entertaining the idea that RF could be ‘nerfed’ is because I still see the Ranger as a whole, and power builds in particular, needing more improvements down the road simply because they still aren’t viable in organized, large scale (5+) combat that we see in WvW.

The changes to Longbow revitalized the ranger community. It is proof evident it was a good change. Before the change Ranger was nothing more than spirit/home defense in Tpvp and kicked from dungeon groups. One point of balance changes is to open up new builds to augment the meta. Currently many have flocked to ranger leading to them being over represented and now other professions being under represented (Namely thief and warrior numbers have dropped substantially.) This indicates the ranger changes were good, but the melee professions of thief and warrior were over board.

Solrik, 90% of the population plays PvE. Even if you look at WvW in itself the roaming people are a vast minority. And a minority of that minority have issues with longbow rangers. As i have said in a previous post, organized WvW and tPvP rangers are a non issue. There are many counters in place, use them.

When people complain about huge numbers RF it is usually a 66xxx full glass build with activated SotW. This burst at best is on a 48s CD without any defenses in place. Reflects usually have a longer CD then the RF itself but a shorter one with the supportive utilities that actually boost its damage. The normal RF itself can be seriously negated by a single dodge. There is absolutely no reason to nerf RF. Even with a build that is not optimal for facing power rangers can win with skillful juking and jousting.
It is also a very good change if people are forced to make builds that have weaknesses.

Currently all of the meta builds for roaming are solid or good for fighting rangers.
Like with every berserker build its a battle of who catches whom first into his combo.

-Thief and LB Ranger counter eachother
-Shatter Mes and LB Ranger counter eachother
-Meditation Guardian is the direct counter to LB Ranger in PvP and thus in WvW as well
-etc… you get my point

As far as bruiser/attrition condi specs go:

-perplexity warrior with 40406 has 3 blocks that can be traited into reflects. Most of them are on a 10-30s CD (mace MH, sword OH, shield)
-engineer has the shield and the toolkit shield. Not to mention the protection injection trait that gives protection when CCed, and guess what people usually do before RF?? Yes its PBS
-PU mesmer…. apex
-PD condition thief… apex
-Condition Necromancer will eat the Ranger alive, unless the Ranger has the terrain advantage, which is another layer to combat that was neglected before.
-Elementalist has enough tools for any situation with every spec. DD can out tank and out sustain the LB Ranger easily.
-SD Thief has the absolute advantage over LB Ranger because it can not be bursted down in one even when caught in CC and has a lot of dodges to negate even many Ranger LB auto attacks and close into melee.

The only 2 builds that have a build counter like disadvantage are Power Necro and full glass Staff Elementalist. This is by design. But even this can be overcome by skill.

I have listed every spec that comes to mind and have shared both my WvW and PvP experience. I have spent almost 4k hours in this game split among all game mods. I have faced many challenges in all game modes and I overcame some and some i have yet to overcome. But I am steadily improving and when i look back i laugh at myself and my reactions. Playing different classes also helps speeding up the learning process. 1 class is complete bias, but adding 1 or 2 more to the repertoire expands your horizon by a large margin.

If you have any issues, add me in game and we can brainstorm and practise 2gether

RF already has Reflect for countering.
Slow it down just make ranger have time to evade it.

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

This isn’t even worth discussing imo. Rapid Fire isn’t too strong and doesn’t deserve any nerfs. A good developer balances for skill, not the skill level of bad players, and if ANet is going to promote a balanced product, then they will stick to their guns with the update.

IF ANYTHING, a global nerf needs to be implemented so that Air and Fire sigils either cannot be proc’d at the same time and/or cannot be used on the same weapon. They are what is creating issues with ridiculously fast times to kill, and even 1 shot mechanics, but it isn’t something specific to any class, and rather, an issue with all strong burst options in the game.

GW2 is already a dying game, it doesn’t need to pander to the worst possible denominator of players, it will just kill the remaining populations motivation to play even more and all that will be left are the mouthbreathers.

Read again, I don’t want RF to be nerfed.
This is a discussion about what would be the best change to RF in order to make it easier to avoid, for an (according to anet) “Average Player”.

The first paragraph of yours is wrong, because any company will always prioritise the average population. 90% of bad players who continue to play the game means more money than those 10% who are very skilled.

Still, all this is irrelevant because this is a thread for discussing what would be the best change to RF if anet decides to change it. There is nothing more to it.
No need to bring up how much you think this game fails.

Btw, not trolling, how do you know it’s dying?

And my argument is that ANet shouldn’t decide to change it, and then I listed what should be changed if anything should be changed.

If bad players make a skill good, you don’t nerf the skill so that the bad players appear better, you let them adapt to the skill before you even start to run numbers on where the skill is. It’s been 2 weeks since the patch dropped and nerf threads started cropping up only hours after the patch, there is no reason to discuss a theoretical knee jerk reaction to a knee jerk response coming from bad players when the meta hasn’t even had time to settle yet.

As far as a dying game goes, the statement is made in reference to the competitive scene being at an all time low with a lot of competitive teams quitting or disbanding, as well as weekly tournament turn out and viewership being at an all time low. That being said, the Tournament of Glory hopefully succeeds as the stimulus package it is designed to be for the competitive community. That probably isn’t indicative of the blanket statement I made, since what I really meant is that a subcommunity is dying, but regardless, when balance is made almost directly in regards to that subcommunity, it is important to note that there is a dwindling population for a very valid reason (top players that I speak to are tired of all of the passive, carry mechanics that remove direct skill from the equation of successful play).

solrik.6028:

I wonder what FluffBall and the bunch will say ’bout this

Haha why is my name on the post?

I can’t really speak too much about the suggestion; I don’t feel RF needs a nerf just because I haven’t been getting hurt by it playing as various other ranger builds, or even my own glass LB build. It’s still a really long channel with a visual that can be spotted from across the map. Couple that with the overwhelming derision the WvW, PvP, and other profession forums have for people who can’t deal with it, and I think it’s in a good place.

Other than that I can’t speak too much about balance. I have all the classes at level 80 but I mostly only understand them as far as what they do to hurt me. For example I’m aware warriors are immune to cripple from movement skills because I need to know that to fight them, but I have no idea what build they run to get that. I don’t play the other professions enough to remember all the details.

The one profession I know that just gets absolutely shredded by LB rangers is necro, and it was like that since day 1. On the other hand, LB rangers are mutilated by condis, so it’s just whoever gets the drop on the other. I’m fine with that.

Atherakhia.4086:

SotW is undeniably overbudget.

Eh, the more damage-only LB users go, the less dangerous they are. SotW has the stability, but I think that’s pretty minor since t’s not CC that kills LB rangers but just any sort of pressure.

I don’t think that anything will change with Rapid Fire, at all. It works as intended, and the change between pre/post patch isn’t as big as people make it out to be.

What is a huge change is Signet of the Wild. This had to be heavily traited before, and mutually exclusive with RtW. With the patch this skill has cemented itself as meta, and I would wager most people pop the signet just before using RF.

SotW, I expect some adjustment to happen soon.

LR and SoR are non-negotiable for a non-SotF LB ranger. SotW doesn’t deserve that important third spot IMO.

solrik.6028:

Cufufalating.8479:

That is litterally the worst thing they could change about it, IMO.

Why?

Damage is the same, Functionality is the same, everything is the same.

What is change is that the first and last arrow will hit a tiny bit later.

Would you rather have the damage nerfed, vulnerability removed, have it made into a static skill like whirling axe, range decreased or cooldown increased?

Because we know from how it is without RtW that you end up missing half your shots even if your opponent isn’t intentionally avoiding them, which is just as bad. It means you can do everything right and your opponent can be, by sheer luck and without even realising it, be halving or more your damage.

Also no, I would actually not mind overly in the damge was slightly decreased or the vulnerability removed. It would be preferable to watching my arrpws slowly sail past targets who aren’t even aware I am shooting at them.

Fluffball.8307:

solrik.6028:

I wonder what FluffBall and the bunch will say ’bout this

Haha why is my name on the post?

I can’t really speak too much about the suggestion; I don’t feel RF needs a nerf just because I haven’t been getting hurt by it playing as various other ranger builds, or even my own glass LB build. It’s still a really long channel with a visual that can be spotted from across the map. Couple that with the overwhelming derision the WvW, PvP, and other profession forums have for people who can’t deal with it, and I think it’s in a good place.

Other than that I can’t speak too much about balance. I have all the classes at level 80 but I mostly only understand them as far as what they do to hurt me. For example I’m aware warriors are immune to cripple from movement skills because I need to know that to fight them, but I have no idea what build they run to get that. I don’t play the other professions enough to remember all the details.

The one profession I know that just gets absolutely shredded by LB rangers is necro, and it was like that since day 1. On the other hand, LB rangers are mutilated by condis, so it’s just whoever gets the drop on the other. I’m fine with that.

Atherakhia.4086:

SotW is undeniably overbudget.

Eh, the more damage-only LB users go, the less dangerous they are. SotW has the stability, but I think that’s pretty minor since t’s not CC that kills LB rangers but just any sort of pressure.

Here, have a bucket full of respect!

I haven’t got all to 80 (yet?) so I can’t say “Oh you’re using that skill” but I’ve learned what happens after. E.g. I can expect what a DD ELE or a hammer warrior will do.

The truth is, people who are a little more skilled can mitigate the RF damage, unless I use a weird combo they haven’t seen before. I don’t play LB nowadays and prefer odd builds like condi with survival skills mixed with BM. (Works out quite well in sPvP)

You mentioned me in one of your posts, so now I got my revenge >:D

I think it would be better if it shot lazor beams. No one would expect that.

FrouFrou.4958:

I think it would be better if it shot lazor beams. No one would expect that.

And to make it more telegraphed it should spawn a armored T-Rex

solrik.6028:

Results? Noobs are easy to hit close & far, skilled players can evade the arrows by timing their left/right strafes correctly.

I’m kinda curious what other attacks there are in the game which can be completely avoided without burning a dodge, block, evade, or utility skill. The only ones which come to mind are things like ele Dragon’s Tooth which draws an obvious graphic, then pauses for seemingly 2 seconds before dropping to apply damage.