Guild Wars 2

Could we have some sort (ANY sort) of explanation as to why ranger/druid has been hammered seemingly non-stop since HoT launched?

Are you going to provide us with any hope at any point that we might someday be effective?

Or are Ancient Seeds & Grace of The Land next on the chopping block?

Let me answer your question with a question: when was the last time you’ve heard a PvE mob complain about any class’s abilities or powers?

There’s your answer.

But, if you’re in doubt, feel free to read some of the threads on the PvP forum.

I just want to take a moment to point out how accurate your sig is.

The problem is that people really like having a whipping boy, in PVP.

Just like in school, or in the workplace, when everyone decides to pick on one person (or people) and here, it’s Ranger.

It was exactly the same with Hunter, in Cata WoW.

Everyone with a brain could see that Hunter was in really bad shape and totally unrepresented in high end arena and yet, they didn’t try to improve it, for fear of an outcry from other classes.

Not because people, genuinely, felt Hunter would become too strong…

Just because they feared they would lose their super-easy kills.

That is what it boils down to here, too, with Ranger.

They could improve it immensely and it would still probably only be mid-pack.

Just as, when they finally bit the bullet, in WoW and ignored the protests, Hunter (after the improvements) only reached mid-pack in PVP.

It would just require bravery, imagination, a BS meter and lack of bias on the devs’ behalf.

this is rediclous. Both my Lingering Light build and my minstrel healer build were essentially deleted off the face of the earth. How do you want me to play my Druid ANET? Why don’t you tell me what build is ok before I create another and you delete it?

It’s funny. Druid was created as a healing / support spec, and subsequently nerfed out of being able to be a healing / support spec.

This…is why the zerker meta exists. Anet has no idea how to actually balance the game.

Gotejjeken.1267:

It’s funny. Druid was created as a healing / support spec, and subsequently nerfed out of being able to be a healing / support spec.

This…is why the zerker meta exists. Anet has no idea how to actually balance the game.

Sure they do.

If the pvp crowd complains, it needs nerfing.

Thus, balance.

oshilator.4681:

Gotejjeken.1267:

It’s funny. Druid was created as a healing / support spec, and subsequently nerfed out of being able to be a healing / support spec.

This…is why the zerker meta exists. Anet has no idea how to actually balance the game.

Sure they do.

If the pvp crowd complains, it needs nerfing.

Thus, balance.

Basically.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Let me answer your question with a question: when was the last time you’ve heard a PvE mob complain about any class’s abilities or powers?

There’s your answer.

But, if you’re in doubt, feel free to read some of the threads on the PvP forum.

Actually there is.

A bunch of PVE Revenant folks complained about Druid outperforming their precious Ventari Spec in raid.

Even PVE folks want Ranger/Druid gutted.

Aomine.5012:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Let me answer your question with a question: when was the last time you’ve heard a PvE mob complain about any class’s abilities or powers?

There’s your answer.

But, if you’re in doubt, feel free to read some of the threads on the PvP forum.

Actually there is.

A bunch of PVE Revenant folks complained about Druid outperforming their precious Ventari Spec in raid.

Even PVE folks want Ranger/Druid gutted.

And they’ll get their wish too eventually.

All it will take is a nerf to Grace of the Land or a big bump in the heals of Ele/Rev to do it.

oshilator.4681:

Could we have some sort (ANY sort) of explanation as to why ranger/druid has been hammered seemingly non-stop since HoT launched?

Are you going to provide us with any hope at any point that we might someday be effective?

Or are Ancient Seeds & Grace of The Land next on the chopping block?

Because people lost in a 1v1 and complained on the forums. Rather than learning how to deal with the class or try and find counterplay. Anet also continues to support the complaints with kneejerk changes.

I swear anet should just delete every single Nerf X or Y is OP thread. The community would get a lot better if we saw threads like: im struggling vs druids with lingering light what can I do about it? People could actually learn and improve at the game and a lot of people like helping and sharing info. If by the end of the thread its a gree there doesn’t seem to be any kind of counterplay then obviously what ever mechanic needs work.

Instead we have this constant kneejerk balance where everything gets kitten on until anet decides its done adjusting for 3months.

I’m pretty sure it is because of PvP. For instance my team won last AG by running two bunker druids and causing most of the matches to end on timer. It was really boring but was so effective we could stand still 1v1 and not die.

it’s pretty interesting.

every time when a random noob create a topic about a sepcific ranger nerf in the pvp section.
it takes around 1-2 days and you can see exatly this nerfs in the patch description.

1 pet qq on pvp section => hard pet dmg nerf and hard pet range nerf (bm ranger)
1 sprit ranger qq on pvp section => some days later first spirit nerfs, followed by more
1 smokescale qq on pvp secition => 2 day later smokescale hard nerf
1 lingering light qq on pvp section => lingering light hard nerf

etc etc. there is for sure more.
every time ranger gets good in pvp they nerf it verry fast down.

of course anet don’t want to get ranger players viable in pvp.
in the same time it hurts ranger for pve aswell, but maybe they don’t want rangers to get viable anywhere.

but this thief/mesmer combo and celestial ele cheese can faceroll for one year.

well ive seen Ancient Seeds and Grace of the Land on the pvp forums… so i am expecting those 2 to be nerfed by the time monday comes.

Ragnar.3916:

it’s pretty interesting.

every time when a random noob create a topic about a sepcific ranger nerf in the pvp section.
it takes around 1-2 days and you can see exatly this nerfs in the patch description.

1 pet qq on pvp section => hard pet dmg nerf and hard pet range nerf (bm ranger)
1 sprit ranger qq on pvp section => some days later first spirit nerfs, followed by more
1 smokescale qq on pvp secition => 2 day later smokescale hard nerf
1 lingering light qq on pvp section => lingering light hard nerf

etc etc. there is for sure more.
every time ranger gets good in pvp they nerf it verry fast down.

of course anet don’t want to get ranger players viable in pvp.
in the same time it hurts ranger for pve aswell, but maybe they don’t want rangers to get viable anywhere.

but this thief/mesmer combo and celestial ele cheese can faceroll for one year.

Do not forget:

BWE 1: Greatsword doing damage => 50% damage nerf to the auto attack
Shortbow being the best ranger weapon => Attack speed nerf + ranger nerf
Quickness too good on ranger => quickness goes from 100% to 50%

No.

Pvp is not to blame, lack of care/knowledge/balls is what has put the ranger class in this mess. All those promises, what a load of bullkitten.

Recall that you created more than one game mode, ANet. In PvE you’re basically locked into GotL for a GM, while sPvPers seemingly enjoyed a choice between LL and Ancient Seeds. Consider redesigning LL so that it’s potentially appealing to players in any game mode, please.

I think when something is OP they nerf it, blinding and healing every 3 seconds sounds very effective, 12 seconds sounds harsh though. I never used it, since I hardly play PvP and go with Grace of the Land.

They need do work on PvP only skills because the forget PvE and WvW in there Balance/Nerf actions.

Ardenwolfe.8590:

Let me answer your question with a question: when was the last time you’ve heard a PvE mob complain about any class’s abilities or powers?

There’s your answer.

But, if you’re in doubt, feel free to read some of the threads on the PvP forum.

So people saying that both Healers are useless, but at same time saying Healers are OP?

iam lost,,, where am I?,,, the world is spinning

I’ve only played druid in PvE so far. The nerf is good for PvE – Lingering Light made you invincible in many situtations in open world PvE, basically against anything that didn’t have a breakbar, and what’s the fun in not being able to lose. Plus if the nerf means I get to keep my astral force out of combat…

Staff is horrible right now in recent patch in SPvP. Had to regen CF. CF doesnt even last long.

what next?

Knighthonor.4061:

Staff is horrible right now in recent patch in SPvP. Had to regen CF. CF doesnt even last long.

what next?

What’s next?

Ancient Seeds will be nerfed into uselessness.

Grace of the Land will shortly follow it.

Wow, the ranger ar still as blind as the foes i hit with lingering light prepatch
We are still able to heal for massive amounts and the blind spam was just cheesy.
the minstrel remove was reasonable, i was able to kill people with a trap druid build on minstrel just from pet dmg and conditions with only 150 condi dmg when i switch to A/T, or could stand against 2-3 people for a good amount of time, thats just wrong.
And to all of you who think the nerfs are mainly for pvp
to the holy mother of grenth of course they are, i think balancing around PvE is absolutely nonsense, the only okay pve nerfs were the ele weapon nerfs because of the unintended behavior.
Pure PvE´ler should not have an equal voice about balancing like a pure PvP´ler.
PvE is just zerging down or bursting down mobs, the only interest of a pure PvE´ler is that his favourite class is OP as possible to kill mobs fast or brain afk, to earn easy money
Its not about “nerfing” down a class its about “balancing” all classes

Edit: a change for a special dictionary lover

I was under the impression that the main thrust of the game was based around the storyline and PvE. It’s kind of why druid was brought to the table. To help with dungeons and future raiding content. But, according to Snow, it’s actually based around PvP.

Hmm. So Guild Wars 2 is a PvP game? Good to know.

And people like snow are why we are where we are.

gw2 isn’t a popular PVP game. Just have a look at any twitch channel when they’re on. I’ve popped on from time to time and don’t see more than 2-7k watching at any given time. It won’t be unless they balance a lot more frequently, and quite frankly, make it a lot more interesting to watch… Which it would be if it was better balanced… However, PVE and WVW needs to be taken into account when they do these silly nerfs.

Yes. 3s passive blind spam is not healthy for pvp.

snow.8097:

Wow, the ranger ar still as blind as the foes i hit with lingering light prepatch
We are still able to heal for massive amounts and the blind spam was just cheesy.
the minstrel remove was reasonable, i was able to nuke people with a trap druid build on minstrel just from pet dmg and conditions with only 150 condi dmg when i switch to A/T, or could stand against 2-3 people for a good amount of time, thats just wrong.
And to all of you who think the nerfs are mainly for pvp
to the holy mother of grenth of course they are, i think balancing around PvE is absolutely nonsense, the only okay pve nerfs were the ele weapon nerfs because of the unintended behavior.
Pure PvE´ler should not have an equal voice about balancing like a pure PvP´ler.
PvE is just zerging down or bursting down mobs, the only interest of a pure PvE´ler is that his favourite class is OP as possible to kill mobs fast or brain afk, to earn easy money
Its not about “nerfing” down a class its about “balancing” all classes

I was actually cool with the blind nerf but the heal should have been significantly buffed to match the cd change. The talent is not gm worthy anymore. I would be happy if they just removed it and replaced it with a nice heal talent.

Mcrocha.3891:

Yes. 3s passive blind spam is not healthy for pvp.

Agreed neither is nerfing by 400%. Thats no healthy for anything. Can you tell me of a single trait that if nerfed by 400% would still be an attractive choice? They might as well have just deleted the grandmaster out of the line.

Eval.2371:

Mcrocha.3891:

Yes. 3s passive blind spam is not healthy for pvp.

Agreed neither is nerfing by 400%. Thats no healthy for anything. Can you tell me of a single trait that if nerfed by 400% would still be an attractive choice? They might as well have just deleted the the grandmaster out of the line.

After the nerfs to Ancient Seeds & Grace of the Land come, they will have done just that.

They really need to split pvp from pve. Rangers have always suffered due to pvp balancing.

I was sick of pvp nerfing pve way back in gw1 and it hasn’t botten any better. They nerfed an entire class (paragon) into the ground over pvp. I think its time that anet remember who is making them money. I don’t that pvp spends as much money on gems as pve.

I find it mindly amusing that over powered skills, such as the guardians stacking-burn issue, ele’s cele d/d, even the perma thief, are allow to continue with the reason “let the dust settle, we’ll look at our numbers and determine if a fix is needed”.

Then a ranger suddenly has a skill that is effective, like HaO, and it is nerfed within 2 hours.

Eval.2371:

Mcrocha.3891:

Yes. 3s passive blind spam is not healthy for pvp.

Agreed neither is nerfing by 400%. Thats no healthy for anything. Can you tell me of a single trait that if nerfed by 400% would still be an attractive choice? They might as well have just deleted the grandmaster out of the line.

I didn’t say anything about agreeing with it being nerfed by 400%. I just answered the ops’s question about whether it was nerfed bc of pvp, which it was.

And to respond to your point about it not being attractive, that just depends on the build you are running. For instance, the build I am running atm has no cc so Ancient Seeds is only useable when focusing a target with teammates, furthermore Ancient Seeds does basically nothing to people who have any form of -condition duration as they can run through the roots, and the build also uses Marauder so GotL isn’t really that great of a pick either. Does that mean 400% nerf wasn’t bad? No, it just means that there may be some cases where you would still slot LL over the other two GM.

Every time some scrub gets destroyed in pvp, they go running to the forums to scream about how whatever beat them should be nerfed.

And for whatever reason, the devs are LISTENING to that.

Why can’t they balance skills/traits to work differently in pve & pvp?

They could pull a blinding surge http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blinding_Surge (funny, here’s the PVP version with it’s 3 seconds recharge http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blinding_Surge_%28PvP%29/Skill_history) but no, they went the Smiter’s Boon way.

I imagine that the Lingering Light nerf was based off both PvE and PvP. The ICD was short enough to almost permanently blind a player or creature, while damaging them and healing yourself.

That being said, they nerfed it WAY too much – to the point of being pretty bad. 6-8s would have been more than enough, but 12s makes it very unattractive when compared to the other GM traits (let’s hope they don’t get nerfed too).

Why would they ever nerf GoTL? The only way to keep full stacks is if you enter avatar form and when you do you are doing no damage. Sure you might buff the party but its a grandmaster trait that gives added utility to a pretty one dimensional elite spec.

Guys, keep in mind that other classes, especially good PvE classes can support through a couple of different things all the while doing great damage. The Core Ranger and the Druid by exstention are in the bottom half of the damage spectrum and both have very limited unique effects and no boon production.

The thief is quite solid DPS and a stealth bot.
The ele is a huge AoE DPS bot.
Engi is top DPS.
The warrior is a might stacker and provides Empower allies, 2 damage boosting banners.
Revenant is huge DPS and a boon bot.
Guardian and mesmers are reflect and utility bots.

The Ranger so far had only spotter and frost spirit and very limited damage and other utility. With glyphs and GoTL we got a solid boost to our party buffing effects, but it is not on the level that, for example, the warrior does.

On the topic of ancient seeds, I do not know what to say. I understand that it is probably meant to be a reliable proc. However, it could potentially be made into something reliable and not tied to an ICD.

For example:
- cast ancient seeds around yourself when you swap pets
or
- cast ancient seeds when you cast a heal skill
or
- cast ancient seeds when you cast an elite skill

While we are talking about Druid, they also need to rework how seed of life looks and works. The delay makes it very unreliable which is especially notable when you trait glyphs. The detonation timer needs to be removed and the silly ugly animation as well. Remake it into an explosion of flowers or something like that.

I agree that over-the-top complaints and whining without constructive explanations will not help, but sitting around and saying nothing at all will just place rangers in the same situation they have been in for years. It will cause the devs to assume that all is right, or that the only people who are right are those speaking out, meaning those complaining that Druids are OP. The blinds were OP. I don’t see many people at all in these forums saying otherwise. The issue we have is how it was dealt with. Instead of actually balancing the blinds and keeping the heals of the trait useful, they just decided to scrap it. Hopefully, this means that they are working on how to bring it back to usefulness or are redoing the Druid traits and spec altogether, but waiting another year for it to balance out, hoping to someday have fun on it is a waste of time and money on the player’s part. I hope they understand that the reason most of us (not the trolls) are giving our two or more cents is because we love the concept of our Druids, and we just don’t understand what Anet is doing to them in correspondence to what they said they were for. I’ll try to explain what I mean:

I found the Druid role as a support/healer and a hybrid dmg/healer somewhat fine in PvE, not that there weren’t good changes to be made. (For the love of God, yes, the blinds were OP all across the board. We get it.) There are multiple game types here, though. As much as some would hate to admit it, PvP does matter to a large chunk of Guild Wars 2 players, and nerfing Lingering Light is not the issue that struck me as wrong, it was the removal of Minstrel stats for PvP. The one thing that a support Druid could do well in PvP was bunker with Minstrel stats.

Now, in regards to someone’s statement on their Druid holding out against 3 people for a while and it being unacceptable, you said you were running Minstrel. Did you end up killing all three of those people that you stood against, or did you die or need to run away? What I can say is if you were able to kill those 2-3 players while you were being fully focused by them in Minstrel, that would be OP. Holding out for a little while and still dying or needing to run is not OP. Thieves can do it with stealth. D/D Elementalists have been able to do it in general. Why not Druids?
As for 1v1, you also said you were able to “nuke” people with the right pets, 150 condition damage, and Minstrel stats. Nuking is killing people in 2-3 hits, like a thief or a warrior, or burning someone down in a matter of 3-4 seconds with conditions. If you were fighting only squishy classes who didn’t know how to react, that would be one thing, but as for anyone else, exactly how many seconds did it take you to kill a non-squishy enemy with 150 condition damage and Minstrel stats? I’d like to know what your meaning of “nuke” is for this build, mostly because my only experience with Minstrel was bunkering, not “nuking”, so I am unaware of how you were running it. Perhaps minstrel was not the problem. It was the burning, which everyone knows is still OP. But again, I did not have your personal experience.

As for my own experience, I find that people are truly not used to Rangers being able to bunker correctly. Bunker Guardians can do it. Bunker Revenants can do it. I’ve even seen warriors do it. What is the problem with a healing class (Anet said the Druid would be heavy healing) being able to hold out against other people and support their team? Is it because of the medium armor? As I said, bunker D/D elementalists could do it, and they wear light armor.
No, what would actually be OP about any bunker is if they also killed the 3 three people that are focusing it. In the case of the Druid, it will die against 3 people if one’s not standing around auto-attacking and thinking that’s enough. The job as a bunker is to hold points, while sacrificing the ability to kill people. (I’ve seen Dragonhunters take out 2 people easily without needing to bunker at all. Is that balanced?) In a 1v1 situation, a bunker Druid will probably have a hard time against the right counter class, and may not ever win, just stay alive and hold the point for a while. This is what makes people rage. When players aren’t used to seeing anything new do the job of a bunker, they are quick to say: “OP! I’m supposed to be able to kill this ranger thing fast, like usual! Now I actually have to get help or run the right build or class to counter it!” Instead, they think they should be able to beat everything without help, even against a class built only to hold a point and heal allies. You are supposed to get help against a bunker. That’s why it’s sitting there, holding your point and staring at you until you do.

aB EXT.1287:

I imagine that the Lingering Light nerf was based off both PvE and PvP. The ICD was short enough to almost permanently blind a player or creature, while damaging them and healing yourself.

Any creature worth killing in PvE is immune to blind spam, trash mobs you can afk auto attack to death aren’t, but those mobs posed no threat anyway.