Guild Wars 2

dodgerrule.8739:

Rangers are and will always remain as the main strength of ranged combat for bows. The range on longbows goes beyond 1500.

Wow, 1500 range, so “good”. If only it could AoE worth a kitten in the very format where meteor shower and lava font is king instead of a 8-12k rapid fire on a single target out of 6/10/20+ people.

It’s almost like people don’t realize a 1500 camping ranger makes his shots easier to dodge/react to than a 1200 range ranger. It must be lovely to plink brainlessly at upscales and call it the best ranged class when GvG events stack staff elementalists over a ranger any time of the day.

Note the wording “for bows”, he said nothing about comparing it to elementalists.

In fact this entire thread is about Dragonhunter vs Ranger Longbow :S

And factcheck, longbow has barrage which is indeed large aoe…this is ofcoarse not counting piercing arrows.

Justine.6351:

And factcheck, longbow has barrage which is indeed large aoe…this is ofcoarse not counting piercing arrows.

Large AOE that does more damage to the ranger via retaliation tics than the tickling damage barrage actually does to people.

The whole reason people are praising Ranger Bow is for rapid fire on the move. In terms of aoe and group utility the DH is better.

yeah the dh barrage variant is pretty nifty. Clearly not a dps skill though.

Comboed with an ele’s meteor shower or a melee train, though, and keeping targets corralled in lethal aoe makes it an incredibly powerful skill. Which also goes with their group vigor symbol and projectile deflection shot behind their melee train to protect them as they go in.

And of course the guardian virtues, shouts, and traps make them have much better utility for a team.

People are only evaluating the bow, but the guardian gets to combo that bow with a hammer or greatsword that’s far more useful than the ranger’s side weapons (greatsword does crap damage relative to other greatswords, has laughably long and obvious telegraphs).

A longbow/hammer or longbow/greatsword DH just brings much more to his team than a ranger.

Then there’s the issue of traps. 25 stacks of vulnerability, 10 seconds of reveal. Those are real traps. If a ranger wants to go traps, he must go condi, which means he loses effectiveness with the longbow. the dragonhunter keeps his effectiveness with traps on a power build.

Condi ranger is absolutely horrendous for team/group combat, it has virtually no cleave outside traps, and no range. going for traps also involves sacrificing defensive tools since unlike a guardian a ranger does not come with built in blind and aegis/blocks throghout all his weapons.

okay, i’m gonna stop you there on the traps thing – A trap ranger can’t bust into a tea party and murder everybody like some builds can, but they’re far from ineffective in team fights. the number of times I’ve saved someone with my traps is huge.

if you die to retaliation , you used the barrage wrong by placing it directly on the zergs head, a mistake most new rangers or less experienced rangers make.

the focus is still peeling targets off the zerg or group by using CC’s , PbS at angles of attack to create a gap , then using barrage to slow Multipul targets from regrouping forcing leaps , if the leaps or escapes are out of sycn with the zerg in hand they will from that point always be slightly behind or lacking the Utility off cooldown to regroup , overall it creates a enviroment of pressure.

and dropping a barrage into a group tanked up with all the boons under the sun before peeling a target or two off just does nothing , its blocked, aegis’d , blinded ect ect

unlike DH LB it is a direct Weapon and its slow is pay off for true shot being a single hit , high power = less retaliation but the down side again .

its slow though the DH LB 5 immobilises which again shouldn’t be used on a zerg head ether , its like a Ranger using Entangle on the flanks without having to be in Range to use it, then single Targeting the mark down .

using the DH leap to repostion ect ect

if ranger was not susceptible or influenced by retaliation combined with quick draw they could pump out consistant Cripple + RF’s and quickness AA’s with lead the wind + piercing attacks ,retaliation is more of a way to deter High pressure Ranged attacks of a quick pace .

those good rangers use bleeds on Barrage to cover up the cripple+Vun and ontop of that use Weakness or Refined poisons to add on a extra junk condition that way they can’t cure the cripple so easly as it is just reapplied.

and im sure by now rangers got enough Hp sustain to survive some or most of a retaliation spike from a feedback of RF/barrage, being killed by retaliation only effects those that still build for Full beserker gear with no extra Hp while using Troll ugent to regen hp with boon regeneration ontop with no means to Spike heal a chunk of Hp which is why most power builds suggest to use timbre+HaO for a chunk heal.

the DH LB and ranger LB are theoretically the same type of skills , CC prevention>spike>escape

though DH does it with immobilise>true shot with minimal traiting
and Ranger does LB , Muddy terrain > barrage > RF > f2(fear) the difference here is still the class mechanics the weapons themselfs at the core function the same.

Zenith go cry somewhere else if you’re just going to troll. The range of ages is shorter then the Rangers long bow by the way. Most make you have to be beside or close. Long bow I can be out of range and still attack with high damage.

Zenith did u test DH at max range in pvp/wvw I did and they had the same issue that Ranger had before +100% velocity
sure U have the range but you cant hit anything that moved sideways or runs from you at it forcing you to go even closer if your fireing at a moving target
the only time I could consistlently hit tagets on my max ranger with DH was when the were standing still

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

if you die to retaliation , you used the barrage wrong by placing it directly on the zergs head, a mistake most new rangers or less experienced rangers make.

the focus is still peeling targets off the zerg or group by using CC’s , PbS at angles of attack to create a gap , then using barrage to slow Multipul targets from regrouping forcing leaps , if the leaps or escapes are out of sycn with the zerg in hand they will from that point always be slightly behind or lacking the Utility off cooldown to regroup , overall it creates a enviroment of pressure.

and dropping a barrage into a group tanked up with all the boons under the sun before peeling a target or two off just does nothing , its blocked, aegis’d , blinded ect ect

unlike DH LB it is a direct Weapon and its slow is pay off for true shot being a single hit , high power = less retaliation but the down side again .

its slow though the DH LB 5 immobilises which again shouldn’t be used on a zerg head ether , its like a Ranger using Entangle on the flanks without having to be in Range to use it, then single Targeting the mark down .

using the DH leap to repostion ect ect

if ranger was not susceptible or influenced by retaliation combined with quick draw they could pump out consistant Cripple + RF’s and quickness AA’s with lead the wind + piercing attacks ,retaliation is more of a way to deter High pressure Ranged attacks of a quick pace .

those good rangers use bleeds on Barrage to cover up the cripple+Vun and ontop of that use Weakness or Refined poisons to add on a extra junk condition that way they can’t cure the cripple so easly as it is just reapplied.

and im sure by now rangers got enough Hp sustain to survive some or most of a retaliation spike from a feedback of RF/barrage, being killed by retaliation only effects those that still build for Full beserker gear with no extra Hp while using Troll ugent to regen hp with boon regeneration ontop with no means to Spike heal a chunk of Hp which is why most power builds suggest to use timbre+HaO for a chunk heal.

the DH LB and ranger LB are theoretically the same type of skills , CC prevention>spike>escape

though DH does it with immobilise>true shot with minimal traiting
and Ranger does LB , Muddy terrain > barrage > RF > f2(fear) the difference here is still the class mechanics the weapons themselfs at the core function the same.

Who said anyone was dying to retaliation? Do you people even read? I said the damage from barrage to a target does less damage than retaliation does to you.

This is not up for debate. Barrage has horrendous damage coefficients, there’s a reason why meteor shower is a thing in pve being a channeled cast, and barrage being also a channeled cast isn’t.

You can talk about peeling, but if a group is that kittened to spread apart and not pay attention to a ranger barraging a backline or back flank, they’ve got bigger problems than barrage.

But by all means show me all those high ranked GvG matches of organized guilds using rangers and what that ratio of rangers per high ranked team compares to other ranged and melee builds/classes.

Zenith.7301:

I dont know how you use your Barrage but I use it to apply cripple from range and do some dmg to easier pick ppl of since I run pos and while its true that it doesnt do so much dmg U have to take into account that like so mant other Ranger weapons it only has one other attack other then aa that is meant to deal dmg while the rest is for utility

Redemer.2601:

Zenith.7301:

I dont know how you use your Barrage but I use it to apply cripple from range and do some dmg to easier pick ppl of since I run pos and while its true that it doesnt do so much dmg U have to take into account that like so mant other Ranger weapons it only has one other attack other then aa that is meant to deal dmg while the rest is for utility

Which is why elementalists and necromancers, and even engineers are so much more beneficial to your group.

But I guess ranger earns the bearbow title for a reason, it attracts those kinds of players who just want to sit at max range and selfishly plinks away at a target or two out of a larger group.

There are classes far better equipped to eliminate single targets reliably anyways. The ranger is just a middle ground between a mesmer/thief and a necro/ele.

Single target ranged damage dealer (which ele does better in pve anyways since lava font+fireball is superior ranged damage on stationary targets, so ranger only shines in pvp) in a game that’s all about AOE and cleave.

Barrage deals significantly more damage than rapid fire, albeit in a longer span of time. The one thing that bothers me most on this forum is when people say barrage is weak, because it absolutely isn’t. Will it be weak against a PVD Guardian with protection and blocks? Sure, but so too will be any AoE. If you use the skill against anyone who isn’t a super tank and they stand in it, they will take heavy damage.

Yes, retaliation will hurt you. But oh well, its not like we’re necessary in zergs anyway.

If they would just truncate barrage by 50% it would be amazingly good and have much less issue with retaliation. Halve the cast time and amount of arrows, double the damage and cripple. But that is pretty much what DH has.

Zenith.7301:

This is not up for debate. Barrage has horrendous damage coefficients, there’s a reason why meteor shower is a thing in pve being a channeled cast, and barrage being also a channeled cast isn’t.

Does it have something in common with Barrage still being the meta opening sequence?

Plus Barrage and Meteor Shower are 2 absolutely different abilities. All ele “barrage” like skills are made a RNG roulette. Stuff drops randomly in the AoE, applying damage on it’s own. Barrage applies an AoE direct damage DoT effect.

It’s clear that Ele’s stuff is absurdly way more OP, but the mechanic is completely different. If you want to talk about how horrendous Barrage scaling is, it is 4.8 (12 hits) … Meteor Shower has 1.2 (24 hits).

I have the feeling that the DH is more of a mid range skirmisher/control spec.

And please, following the latest patch, the ranger is actually quite solid in zergs.

Tragic Positive.9356:

It’s clear that Ele’s stuff is absurdly way more OP, but the mechanic is completely different. If you want to talk about how horrendous Barrage scaling is, it is 4.8 (12 hits) … Meteor Shower has 1.2 (24 hits).

The damage coefficient of 4.8 is for the 12 hits. Each hit has a coefficient of 0.4.

Barrage WILL hit everything (up to 5) in the circle every 0.6 seconds and cripple them so that increases the chance of multiple hits.

12 hits x 5 targets = 60 hits (max)
0.4 coefficient x 2500 power = 1000 damage (per hit)
60 × 1000 damage = 60.000 damage (total)

Meteor Shower, only has a chance to deal damage. I’ve managed to walk our of most Meteor Showers unharmed. If however it’s dropped on top of a zerg, the chances of it missing everyone are as good as none. But who’s going to stay in it unless it’s used on a chokepoint? It’s extreme area denial though with a huge radius (360 radius + up to 120 damage radius). Barrage has a radius of 360.

24 impacts x 3 targets = 72 hits (max)
1.3 coefficient x 2500 power = 3250 damage (per hit)
72 × 3250 damage = 234.000 damage (total)

Meteor Shower does a ton more damage, but it’s less likely to hit a single target than Barrage. Meteor Shower becomes more reliable the more enemies are in the circle. For Barrage it doesn’t matter if there is only 1 person in the circle, it will always hit.

If we’re talking about dropping AoE on a zerg, then Meteor Shower is your best option by far.

Different roles of the weapons. Longbow is a 1500 single target pressure that gets its AoE potential through piercing. Barrage is a soft CC ability.

Also, if you are hitting a boss mob with a large hit-box, Meteor Shower is absurdly more powerful than Barrage. Barrage would be amazing if the mechanic was identical to Meteor Shower…

Soilder.3607:

Barrage deals significantly more damage than rapid fire, albeit in a longer span of time. The one thing that bothers me most on this forum is when people say barrage is weak, because it absolutely isn’t. Will it be weak against a PVD Guardian with protection and blocks? Sure, but so too will be any AoE. If you use the skill against anyone who isn’t a super tank and they stand in it, they will take heavy damage.

Yes, retaliation will hurt you. But oh well, its not like we’re necessary in zergs anyway.

See, this is why we need DPS meters in this game, some people can’t weigh the value of skills properly.

Barrage is a stationary skill with three times the cooldown of rapid fire, and it’s a non-mobile channeled ability whose damage is tied to a zone.

Barrage has longer effective cd than meteor shower and it’s by all means worse as an aoe skill.

And we’re not just talking zergs, on larger hitbox bosses meteor shower takes a dump on barrage.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

If they would just truncate barrage by 50% it would be amazingly good and have much less issue with retaliation. Halve the cast time and amount of arrows, double the damage and cripple. But that is pretty much what DH has.

NO! ;-(

Still gearing for my condi LB ;-)

Zenith.7301:

Soilder.3607:

Barrage deals significantly more damage than rapid fire, albeit in a longer span of time. The one thing that bothers me most on this forum is when people say barrage is weak, because it absolutely isn’t. Will it be weak against a PVD Guardian with protection and blocks? Sure, but so too will be any AoE. If you use the skill against anyone who isn’t a super tank and they stand in it, they will take heavy damage.

Yes, retaliation will hurt you. But oh well, its not like we’re necessary in zergs anyway.

See, this is why we need DPS meters in this game, some people can’t weigh the value of skills properly.

Barrage is a stationary skill with three times the cooldown of rapid fire, and it’s a non-mobile channeled ability whose damage is tied to a zone.

Barrage has longer effective cd than meteor shower and it’s by all means worse as an aoe skill.

And we’re not just talking zergs, on larger hitbox bosses meteor shower takes a dump on barrage.

Ok, everyone is aware that meteor shower is the better skill. That does not make barrage a bad skill by any means. And everything you said about barrage also applies to meteor shower. However, the question that should be asked is is meteor shower too good? Which it very well may be.

Should we do a cross comparison of Maul and Arcing Slice as well? One deals significantly more damage than the other.

Soilder.3607:

Ok, everyone is aware that meteor shower is the better skill. That does not make barrage a bad skill by any means. And everything you said about barrage also applies to meteor shower. However, the question that should be asked is is meteor shower too good? Which it very well may be.

Should we do a cross comparison of Maul and Arcing Slice as well? One deals significantly more damage than the other.

Any ability we have will stay an inferior version of other classes’ ones. Because we need to be cut down thanks to our pets.
It’s just how this class development works. No one’s satisfied with it. We can only adapt.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Soilder.3607:

Ok, everyone is aware that meteor shower is the better skill. That does not make barrage a bad skill by any means. And everything you said about barrage also applies to meteor shower. However, the question that should be asked is is meteor shower too good? Which it very well may be.

Should we do a cross comparison of Maul and Arcing Slice as well? One deals significantly more damage than the other.

Any ability we have will stay an inferior version of other classes’ ones. Because we need to be cut down thanks to our pets.
It’s just how this class development works. No one’s satisfied with it. We can only adapt.

No more power creep please the balance is already kittened up enough.
They just shoud just fix the bugs, tone down the op builds (elementalist? M A Y B E) and if they don’t move on to another game I guess.

The pets do deal damage but what’s more special is that they’re not linked to our gear.
So a bunker ranger can still deal 6k dmg with chilling slash in half a sec.
They should just improve the effectiveness of pets and their AI not necessarily buff the ranger just because the pets are dumb

Soilder.3607:

Zenith.7301:

Soilder.3607:

Barrage deals significantly more damage than rapid fire, albeit in a longer span of time. The one thing that bothers me most on this forum is when people say barrage is weak, because it absolutely isn’t. Will it be weak against a PVD Guardian with protection and blocks? Sure, but so too will be any AoE. If you use the skill against anyone who isn’t a super tank and they stand in it, they will take heavy damage.

Yes, retaliation will hurt you. But oh well, its not like we’re necessary in zergs anyway.

See, this is why we need DPS meters in this game, some people can’t weigh the value of skills properly.

Barrage is a stationary skill with three times the cooldown of rapid fire, and it’s a non-mobile channeled ability whose damage is tied to a zone.

Barrage has longer effective cd than meteor shower and it’s by all means worse as an aoe skill.

And we’re not just talking zergs, on larger hitbox bosses meteor shower takes a dump on barrage.

Ok, everyone is aware that meteor shower is the better skill. That does not make barrage a bad skill by any means. And everything you said about barrage also applies to meteor shower. However, the question that should be asked is is meteor shower too good? Which it very well may be.

Should we do a cross comparison of Maul and Arcing Slice as well? One deals significantly more damage than the other.

Arcing Slice is a stupid comparison. Arcing Slice has a side effect and is a burst skill, which gives 15 seconds of fury.

Arcing Slice on a 100% health target does 448 tooltip damage with a 1.2 coefficient. It gives 15 seconds of fury.

Maul does 434 with a 1.5 coefficient. Seems better? 7 vulnerability stacks for 8 seconds is less of an upgrade to 15 seconds of fury.

Except you forgot Arcing slice on a target below 50% health does 672 tooltip damage with a whopping coefficient of 1.8, much better than maul at that point.

And we’re talking about maul, an ability that has reaper levels of slow wind up animation and is one of the easiest attacks to dodge in the game.

Now compare Maul to Whirling Wrath, and Maul comes out total garbage, it’s not even a competition.

What’s more, in your comparison you’re missing that maul comes on a weapon with horrendously bad autoattack damage. The warrior and guardian greatswords do significantly more damage on their autoattacks to complement their skills, meaning they do more sustained damage.

Ele with fireball+lava font does much more sustained damage than a long range shot+rapid fire sustained DPS test, and it’s not dependent on the target’s range relative to you. Which means the ele can stack with closer groups to might stack, whereas the ranger gets a decreasing autoattack damage if they join the stack for boons.

Ele is not lacking for anything, and meteor shower isn’t too good. ranger skills and their amount of hybrid weapons with no group utility are TOO BAD. They need buffing, period.

There’s a reason why rangers are the least wanted class in general across the game formats. Necro is worse in PvE, but on a better representation and position in spvp and WvW. A well bombing necro is taking over a ranger without even blinking.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Soilder.3607:

Ok, everyone is aware that meteor shower is the better skill. That does not make barrage a bad skill by any means. And everything you said about barrage also applies to meteor shower. However, the question that should be asked is is meteor shower too good? Which it very well may be.

Should we do a cross comparison of Maul and Arcing Slice as well? One deals significantly more damage than the other.

Any ability we have will stay an inferior version of other classes’ ones. Because we need to be cut down thanks to our pets.
It’s just how this class development works. No one’s satisfied with it. We can only adapt.

But this isn’t even true. The pet penalty only applies to our power based weapons and coefficients for some stupid reason, while our conditions do just as much damage as everyone else’s.

That’s why condi rangers have been more prevalent in general, because they don’t pay the dumb pet tax. Remove the pet tax from our power weapons and give us better utility, and we’ll be in a better spot.

I think the only weapon that’s power based that doesn’t pay so much a tax is the longbow, and that’s why it’s the most popular ranger power based weapon. It’s our power weapon that’s closest to other classes’ power weapons.

Image a wvw commander focus with 2dh and 3necros

McWolfy.5924:

Image a wvw commander focus with 2dh and 3necros

Why not 5 LB Rangers with LtW?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

McWolfy.5924:

Image a wvw commander focus with 2dh and 3necros

Why not 5 LB Rangers with LtW?

because lolreflect.

Have you played Dragonhunter yet in a beta? If not, I would suggest you do during an open beta.

I played it last weekend and was a bit disappointed. Ranger is my main but I did not expect it to play like that. However, I did expect the excitement I felt when watching the videos. It did not happen. For example, the leap move was way too short and unimpressive. The rest of it did not seem special or unique to me.

I will give it one more try before I make my decision. But again, suggest you play it for a bit before making a switch.

nacario.9417:

SkiTz.4590:

snip

Thats funny cuz if u head over to the guardian DH feedback thread everyone is stating it is a slow n sluggish spec pvp pov

For me, it played slow and sluggish in open world pve as well.

In practical team play, I think dragonhunter currently has the edge over ranger. The sole reason to take a ranger is to fill a position, specifically you might take it to bring reveal. That is because most top teams run stealth and will stealth rez their fallen teammates. The ranger could have a niche role by applying reveal… unfortunately the precasting nature of sic em makes the whole endeavor a rather risky procedure. You need to apply the reveal as late as possible for maximum effectiveness… but if you are too late it won’t work. Therefore, if you want to counter the stealth rezzes it would be better to take an engi… but lock on only affects one target with a long icd… so not great. The best way to counter that stealth rez then is to use the reveal trap on a dragon hunter. It applies to everyone, can probably fill the refuge, + the dragon hunter can have stab and a teleport to make sure it gets on top of that body in time. That being said, I wouldn’t use the longbow on that build. Then, “will dragonhunter be a better LONGBOW ranger?” No. “Will it be a better ranger?” Maybe.

Unless the bow gets buffed on the Dragon Hunter, I don’t think there is much Rangers have to worry about. Also no one was able to play rangers new toys, so who knows.

Having played the DH in WvW I’ll say it was low. Traps seemed to work but again, slow. Best long bow skill was 5. However, it is a lot like shooting a duck or any other moving object. It is so slow that you have to lead the target to get the proper CC.

Longbow 5 is great though and when it hits, is amazing. Didn’t get to try trapper runes. Didn’t really figure out a solid build to make it work. Tried Mace/Focus with Long Bow – support hybrid. Didn’t like it, was too slow. Tried LB with GS. Ok, not too bad but again LB is slow or missed.

Needs some more work but I think we are good.

Everything is better than a ranger.

Everybody else uses a bow better than a Ranger. Why not a Guardian?

Quarktastic.1027:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

McWolfy.5924:

Image a wvw commander focus with 2dh and 3necros

Why not 5 LB Rangers with LtW?

because lolreflect.

^ This

Playing Ranger in t1 is often a lot of standing around waiting for the Wall of Reflection the other zerg is hiding behind to expire before you can do anything to anyone.

Choke points should be a logical advantage for piercing arrows but most of the time it’s a huge penalty.

From what I’ve heard, this is only going to get much worse in the new borderlands map.

everybody? lol , there is only One longbow like the rangers , not all bows are Equal which creates different uses for different classes using bows.

no Bow is Equal to onther , they just have different uses or different ways of using them.

and that does not define it as Everybody using bow better than Ranger.

you want ports ect ect to carry a class keep playing those other classes those bows are used for Utilitiy purposes not damage , True shot is a Damage filler to use between Weapon rotations and the leap is there to use to avoid combat untill your combat set is ready.

Guardains , thiefs , warroirs are not Bow masters they are not accurate to cause sustained Dps as much as a ranger can and that down side to ranger is Utility though that is made up for its Traits providing it with health sustain while lacking Utility on the weapon , meaning its Crucial for rangers to use utility slots to support the weapon rather than the other way round , of the weapon supporting and using Utility slots to prevent damage .

it all goes back to what Anet want rangers to be accurate,precise masters of Nature and pet alike.

the other classes are not as good with Bows they just have more Utility built into them , but that does not mean other classes use bows better.

in the end other classes use a Bow for Utility purposes and that is the difference.

DragonHunter might end up good with a few fixes, but Longbow ranger might be a whole lot better than it is currently with the Druid specialization.

I’m looking forward to face DragonHunters in SPvP when HoT comes out.

Na, DH will probably be awesome, but it will fill a different roll.

The new specializations are going to be awesome. I ran a shattering chronomancer for about 8 hours during the beta weekend and never had so much fun! Talk about an army of one! They did a really good job with that! Let’s see what Druid brings. I would not be surprised if it has synergy with our current longbow builds…