Guild Wars 2

vespers.1759:

Solandri.9640:

Actually rapid shot is 12 hits. And in terms of DPS it’s pretty much the same as the autoattack. If you time it wrong and rapid shot interrupts an autoattack just before it fires, you’ll actually reduce your DPS.

Its benefits are that it’ll do the same damage even at close range, and it’ll automatically track targets (even if they stealth). Outside of those use cases, it’s pretty much the same thing as autoattack.

maybe slightly less dmg per hit than 1 but it does it much faster than waiting for 12 auto attacks.

The skill coefficients I’m getting for the two skills are about 0.9 for LB autoattack, 0.3 for rapid shot. So you need three shots from rapid shot to equal the damage from one autoattack shot.

Rapid shot takes 5 sec to complete. There’s also a fraction of a second at the beginning for its animation to start up, but I’m pretty sure it’s included in the 5 sec. 12 shots in 5 sec is 0.417 sec per shot. So…

• Rapid shot’s effective rate of fire is 3 shots in 1.25 sec.
• Longbow’s autoattack is 1.25 sec between shots.

The two do the same DPS. If you’ve been using rapid shot while plinking away at long range thinking it increases your DPS, stop. It doesn’t, it’s needless work on your part, it needlessly puts rapid shot in cooldown, and if you do it wrong (interrupt an autoattack which is about to fire) you’ll actually decrease your DPS. I’ve confirmed this with time to kill a heavy golem with a steady longbow. 370 sec for autoattack, 372 sec spamming rapid shot as often as I can.

So like I said, rapid shot’s only advantage is that it doesn’t suffer reduced damage at close range, and it tracks your target. It also seems to ignore min/max weapon damage and does the same damage per hit, other than criticals. But that’s not really an advantage nor a disadvantage.

Edit: Another advantage would be that rapid shot increases the chances of an on critical sigil procing.

vitali.1609:

What? Same as auto attack? Ive had crits of 12 13 and 14k with the last 3 of those 10 shots from rapid fire.

The damage numbers you see from a multi-shot skill are the cumulative damage from the skill, not the damage per hit. So if you see 200, 400, 600, 800, 1000, that doesn’t mean the final shot hit for 1000 and the total of the 5 shots is 3000. It means each shot hit for 200 and the total of the 5 shots is 1000.

Omega.1473:

nerva.7940:

Sb does way better damage because more of its arrows HIT. Youre lucky if rapid fire lands half of its damage on a moving dodging target lawl. If lb got 30 percent projectile speed buff I would consider using it. Until then warrior rifle and mesmer gs remain vastly superior

“Lawl”? The arrows fly at the same speed. There’s no difference in flight trajectory or speed between a SB or LB arrow. The only difference ends up being range. At longer range, EVERY projectile attack in the game is more likely to miss. SB at 1200 and LB at 1200 miss at the same rate.

Its either your imagination or some fault of yours that is making your LB miss more than your SB.

you fire the SB one arrow at a time at a faster, spammable rate. the LB has longer CD’s and slower autoattack. when half of your rapid fire whiffs, you have to wait before doing dps again.

I’ll just leave this here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Skirmish-With-a-Longbow/first#post1431247

Longbows can be used in 1v1s too You just have to remember that weapon switching should be maximized to effectively fight in melee or in range

Yes op the Longbow is bad, the damage is ok the rate of fire is too slow, which is funny the short bow rate of fire is fine it’s damage is too low…

And both lack serious AoE and serious CC times…

Omega.1473:

Obsidian.1328:

^ Those numbers are fine and all, but the fact that LB dmg is only good at long range is the kicker. LB auto-attack is way to easy to side-step, or run out of. This more than makes up for it.

So are a lot of ranged attacks, that’s nothing new and that’s not just a Ranger problem let alone a LB problem. LB and SB have the same chance of missing when fired from the same range.

Your statement makes it sound like you want the LB to be an ideal weapon in every scenario and that its damage should be compensated for the fact that it can be dodged. Its not and its not going to be. How much do you buff it to compensate for its lag time / flight? Or do you make the arrows fly faster? If its the latter, then your argument is not counter to mine and you’re nitpicking on something that’s irrelevant to what I was showing.

Someone argued “Apples > Oranges”, I countered with math to show that “Apples = 1.1 Oranges but that Oranges have extra bonuses”. You then responded with “But Oranges are citrus!” which has nothing to do with what I was trying to show.

LB has some great niches it shines in. People trash the concept of the keep defender LB Ranger but honestly, few things scare me more than when I’m seiging a door and I hear the growl of a Jaguar and I have to be constantly on the move to avoid being pinned by Barrages or nailed by 1.5k auto attack arrows. It makes it quite difficult to man a ram or offensive arrow cart effectively. At least with a disruptive Thief, I can fight back, but that Ranger is sitting safe in his tower, hitting me from 1500+ (because LB can easily hit outside of its effective range if you manually click attacks).

Not to mention it being a great PVE open world zerg champion fighting tool. Good luck to the melee folk who have to spend their time dodging through the champs legs, I’ll be back here with my devourer giving you 10% damage boosts and doing decent DPS.

Ehh, I’m not trashing the LB by any means. I actually use it exclusively on my own ranger. I’m just saying that because of it’s extended range(which most players trait it for), it’s easier to side-step. Also, the slower rate of fire to the short bow makes it easier to side-step as well. That’s what nerva and I were are talking about, not arrow speed. You would think something that fires farther and at a slower rate would hit harder than it does. I don’t think that’s a strange concept.

And by the way, if you’re standing on the wall ledge in a tower you won’t stay alive very long lol. Players salivate over rangers who can be pulled down easily.

vespers.1759:

NargofWoV.4267:

vespers.1759:

i run full zerk and if i land a full rapid fire i’ve hit 9.8k max (vs an upleveled ranger lol).

couple that with entangle and jaguar 3k crits and many people go down quick. longbow on a tank build is pretty bad, but don’t under estimate what it can do.

also don’t forget about pet swap for quickness and rapid fire. it comes out quick when not expected.

Making sure you understand me, my original statement was LB at range or at Max range… Entangle and pet swaping are not a good idea at 1500+ range when it takes so long for your pet to run up to the person. They won’t be just sitting there waiting for you pet to arrive, because you swapped them out so you could acquire quickness.

I run with 24K health, your nice crit and cat crit has taken me down to 1/2 health, to which I’ve now popped a 940 tick TU… You ready for your next set of cool downs? Hope you get your crit on those as well.

Edit: What should really get your goat is… with 24k health, I’ve been 3 shot by a thief.

nobody ever uses longbow at max range unless it’s a zvz. in a 1v1 i usually ignore the number 1. only 1 is affected by distance from target. rapid fire works best at close range because more arrows land. besides, the longbow still crits for about 1200 when in about 600 range with my build, so that’ll overcome your troll anyway.

going into a 1v1 i unleash 3 and then 2 while running up to the target, then i entangle, swap to sword/horn and go to work with my invis jaguar. then i can swap back for the number 4 and another rapid fire.

tbh, rangers are the easiest class for me to kill, which i guess is kind of sad. most are using bows and they die before they escape my entangle.

Interestingly enough, we’re running the same weapon group. However, again, my analysis on the LB was about max range inefficiency to the OP. The OP never said anything about LB coupled with Sword and horn. He asked is the Longbow really this bad. And frankly, as a killing machine, the LB is terrible by itself.

Now, if you want to enter a thread, interject a whole new set of dynamics then call someone a name for pointing it out, then….

NargofWoV.4267:

vespers.1759:

NargofWoV.4267:

vespers.1759:

i run full zerk and if i land a full rapid fire i’ve hit 9.8k max (vs an upleveled ranger lol).

couple that with entangle and jaguar 3k crits and many people go down quick. longbow on a tank build is pretty bad, but don’t under estimate what it can do.

also don’t forget about pet swap for quickness and rapid fire. it comes out quick when not expected.

Making sure you understand me, my original statement was LB at range or at Max range… Entangle and pet swaping are not a good idea at 1500+ range when it takes so long for your pet to run up to the person. They won’t be just sitting there waiting for you pet to arrive, because you swapped them out so you could acquire quickness.

I run with 24K health, your nice crit and cat crit has taken me down to 1/2 health, to which I’ve now popped a 940 tick TU… You ready for your next set of cool downs? Hope you get your crit on those as well.

Edit: What should really get your goat is… with 24k health, I’ve been 3 shot by a thief.

nobody ever uses longbow at max range unless it’s a zvz. in a 1v1 i usually ignore the number 1. only 1 is affected by distance from target. rapid fire works best at close range because more arrows land. besides, the longbow still crits for about 1200 when in about 600 range with my build, so that’ll overcome your troll anyway.

going into a 1v1 i unleash 3 and then 2 while running up to the target, then i entangle, swap to sword/horn and go to work with my invis jaguar. then i can swap back for the number 4 and another rapid fire.

tbh, rangers are the easiest class for me to kill, which i guess is kind of sad. most are using bows and they die before they escape my entangle.

Interestingly enough, we’re running the same weapon group. However, again, my analysis on the LB was about max range inefficiency to the OP. The OP never said anything about LB coupled with Sword and horn. He asked is the Longbow really this bad. And frankly, as a killing machine, the LB is terrible by itself.

Now, if you want to enter a thread, interject a whole new set of dynamics then call someone a name for pointing it out, then….

the longbow is fantastic at range. rapid fire people from 1200-1500 range. i see nothing wrong with it. it needs a high crit chance to be effective though because it has no secondary effects.

Obsidian.1328:

Ehh, I’m not trashing the LB by any means. I actually use it exclusively on my own ranger. I’m just saying that because of it’s extended range(which most players trait it for), it’s easier to side-step. Also, the slower rate of fire to the short bow makes it easier to side-step as well. That’s what nerva and I were are talking about, not arrow speed. You would think something that fires farther and at a slower rate would hit harder than it does. I don’t think that’s a strange concept.

And by the way, if you’re standing on the wall ledge in a tower you won’t stay alive very long lol. Players salivate over rangers who can be pulled down easily.

I don’t think it’s a strange concept either. Hence why I said that a slight nudge up could be merited in the other earlier post.

To the “standing on the ledge” comment: Keep RaO up as much as possible, trait Shared Anguish and pop Signet of the Wild (traited) if you’re still fearful. What class isn’t afraid of getting yanked and/or has more means of countering it? There’s not much you can do against sieging Thieves with scorpion wire. If you want to avoid Mesmers and Guardians, make sure you watch for the veils and binding blades and get ready to roll because it takes them two separate clicks to yank you.

Followup on Rapid Shot. Something bugged me about the numbers I was seeing with the skill in play vs. in my testing, and I think I finally figured it out. This skill is seriously fubared.

Rapid shot’s skill coefficient is 0.375, not the 0.3 I’d estimated before. What threw me off was that the damage the skill does is the same for every shot (except criticals). I tested it twice, and both times got the same damage per shot, so figured it was constant damage, not a damage range.

Turns out it was just luck that both trials did the same damage. The game seems to make one random damage roll at the start of the skill, and that’s the damage for each shot. A shot can critical, but the critical is calculated off the same base damage for every shot. e.g. if the game rolls that the skill will hit for 130 damage, then each shot will hit for 130. All criticals during the skill will hit for 130*1.5 = 195 (if you have 0% crit damage bonus).

The animation and sound for the skill shows 12 shots. But the game engine only registers 10 shots.

• Autoattack’s 1 shot in 1.25 sec with a 0.9 skill coefficient is 0.9/1.25 = 0.72 skill coefficent per sec.
• Rapid shot’s 10 shots in 5 sec with a 0.375 skill coefficient is 10*0.375/5 = 0.75 skill coefficient per second. That is, rapid shot does just 4% more DPS than autoattack.

So in the ideal case (you fire rapid shot immediately after an autoattack fires), you will do slightly more damage with rapid shot than with autoattack. You have to hit the skill within 0.05 sec of autoattack completing for this to happen though.

If you start rapid shot more than 0.05 sec after an autoattack completes, you will interrupt the autoattack wasting the time your character spent preparing to fire it. And your net DPS will decrease compared to just using autoattack.

So my recommendation still stands – only use rapid shot when attacking something at close or medium range. 0.05 sec is about 1/3rd average human reaction time, so combined with internet lag I don’t think anyone can reliably fire the skill within 0.05 sec of autoattack completing. The only change I would make is that it’s ok to open up a fight with rapid fire. Or to hit it just before the #3, #4, or #5 skill finishes – the game will queue it up and fire it automatically then, no delay. That’ll eek out 4% extra damage on average over those 5 seconds compared to autoattack.

Longbow is not bad or worse then shortbow.
As with all weapons with all professions, a different weapon requires a different way of playing.

For example: Try a berserker build in WvW-zergs with shortbow and longbow. My guess is you stay alive more often and thus deal more dmg with longbow. Because of it’s range and you being able to position yourself more safely in the backlines sniping/dps-ing/bursting the kitten out of everyone.
Trying that with shortbow means you have to get in closer making you enemies’ target more often and you dodging 3-ing your way out of it desperately therefor not dealing dmg at all.

Longbow and shortbow requires a different way of playing and positioning on the battlefield.
Also, to synergize with available traits they tend to lean to different synergizing traits: shortbow condition dmg and a bit more survivability, longbow power and crit with less need of survivability (if not solo-ing).
All can be mixed though when you’re creative enough.

Solandri.9640:

The two do the same DPS. If you’ve been using rapid shot while plinking away at long range thinking it increases your DPS, stop. It doesn’t, it’s needless work on your part

on crit procs (i use superior sigil of fire on my longbow), RaO (although barrage is much better at this; i group of enemies gives your pet 25 might in no time) and only one confusion tick

Omega.1473:

Obsidian.1328:

Ehh, I’m not trashing the LB by any means. I actually use it exclusively on my own ranger. I’m just saying that because of it’s extended range(which most players trait it for), it’s easier to side-step. Also, the slower rate of fire to the short bow makes it easier to side-step as well. That’s what nerva and I were are talking about, not arrow speed. You would think something that fires farther and at a slower rate would hit harder than it does. I don’t think that’s a strange concept.

And by the way, if you’re standing on the wall ledge in a tower you won’t stay alive very long lol. Players salivate over rangers who can be pulled down easily.

I don’t think it’s a strange concept either. Hence why I said that a slight nudge up could be merited in the other earlier post.

To the “standing on the ledge” comment: Keep RaO up as much as possible, trait Shared Anguish and pop Signet of the Wild (traited) if you’re still fearful. What class isn’t afraid of getting yanked and/or has more means of countering it? There’s not much you can do against sieging Thieves with scorpion wire. If you want to avoid Mesmers and Guardians, make sure you watch for the veils and binding blades and get ready to roll because it takes them two separate clicks to yank you.

True, but that still only gets you around 22 seconds of stability with a 120 second cooldown. And Shared Anguish is a 90 seconds cooldown. I typically get pulled every 5 seconds or so on a wall so that won’t work with me. The best you can do is wait for Barrage to recycle, run to edge, and hope that in the 2 and half seconds it takes to cast it you don’t get targeted.

Longbow is viable, its simply a different skill set that needs to be used to its strengths. I use my longbow in WvW defensively often, QZ+Barrage at feet means if an enemy wants to stay in close range (melee) and hurt you there is a price to pay…otherwise they need to clear barrage and be vulnerable while doing it.

Yes, certain weapons will provide better DPS but its really about finding a weapon that synergizes how YOU want to play.

Though I heard it was gimp time and time again I WANTED to be a LB/SB Ranger so I set out to find a style that was conductive to it…I will never be the best Ranger but I certainly do not embarrass myself using this “underpowered” combo and have left a few people scratching there head with my setup.

I keep reading the theme “players are side stepping shots in WvWvW!” but I’m curious. Most players have only two dodges until the dodge regens, during that time a LB will hit them unless they use a skill that has a dodge inherent to it. So how are so many shots being dodged? Just asking since it sounds very subjective.

Here are a few WvWvW and group PvE tactics I’ve successfully employed to mitigate dodges.
1. Target someone in a fight with another player and snipe them. Plenty of opportunities can be found in the “zerg”, defending, offensive press, etc.
2. Stick your pet on the opponent and let them waste dodges on the pet’s attacks while you kite and snipe them.
3. Always roam in a group and enter combat as a group. Fire from range while others engaged in melee, jump in and out of melee/range as needed.

Overall, get your target to stop thinking about you and something else, this is my play style.

Expiatus.4210:

I keep reading the theme “players are side stepping shots in WvWvW!” but I’m curious. Most players have only two dodges until the dodge regens, during that time a LB will hit them unless they use a skill that has a dodge inherent to it. So how are so many shots being dodged? Just asking since it sounds very subjective.

Just side strafe side to side. Virtually all LB 1 shots could be dodged that way.

Expiatus.4210:

I keep reading the theme “players are side stepping shots in WvWvW!” but I’m curious. Most players have only two dodges until the dodge regens, during that time a LB will hit them unless they use a skill that has a dodge inherent to it. So how are so many shots being dodged? Just asking since it sounds very subjective.

Here are a few WvWvW and group PvE tactics I’ve successfully employed to mitigate dodges.
1. Target someone in a fight with another player and snipe them. Plenty of opportunities can be found in the “zerg”, defending, offensive press, etc.
2. Stick your pet on the opponent and let them waste dodges on the pet’s attacks while you kite and snipe them.
3. Always roam in a group and enter combat as a group. Fire from range while others engaged in melee, jump in and out of melee/range as needed.

Overall, get your target to stop thinking about you and something else, this is my play style.

The arrows in gw2 don’t home like they do in other games, if you don’t get touched by the projectile it simply does no damage. What is happening is that an opponent will be moving in one direction, you’ll fire an arrow where they are heading, then the enemy changes direction and the arrow misses. This effect is greater the longer the distance so in WvW where zergs fight at 1500 range you see it a lot.

This is why that arrow velocity buff was important, it became harder to dodge arrows simply by moving back and forth in rhythm.

Dante.3754:

Expiatus.4210:

I keep reading the theme “players are side stepping shots in WvWvW!” but I’m curious. Most players have only two dodges until the dodge regens, during that time a LB will hit them unless they use a skill that has a dodge inherent to it. So how are so many shots being dodged? Just asking since it sounds very subjective.

Here are a few WvWvW and group PvE tactics I’ve successfully employed to mitigate dodges.
1. Target someone in a fight with another player and snipe them. Plenty of opportunities can be found in the “zerg”, defending, offensive press, etc.
2. Stick your pet on the opponent and let them waste dodges on the pet’s attacks while you kite and snipe them.
3. Always roam in a group and enter combat as a group. Fire from range while others engaged in melee, jump in and out of melee/range as needed.

Overall, get your target to stop thinking about you and something else, this is my play style.

The arrows in gw2 don’t home like they do in other games, if you don’t get touched by the projectile it simply does no damage. What is happening is that an opponent will be moving in one direction, you’ll fire an arrow where they are heading, then the enemy changes direction and the arrow misses. This effect is greater the longer the distance so in WvW where zergs fight at 1500 range you see it a lot.

This is why that arrow velocity buff was important, it became harder to dodge arrows simply by moving back and forth in rhythm.

“I see!”, said the blind man.
Thanks for explaining Dante, much appreciated. I’ll have to be more careful and adjust as best I can.

vitali.1609:

Its not the weapon…..L2..

vitali.1609:

If six digit crits are an irritant than thats fine with me and rolling wont save you.

vitali.1609:

What? Same as auto attack? Ive had crits of 12 13 and 14k with the last 3 of those 10 shots from rapid fire.

So I’m going through this thread (Because I love the “debates”) and I just can’t but notice this person’s responses. Sounds like some people still think that each damage number in the Rapid Fire sequence is the individual shot’s damage instead of total damge of the channel. Would explain a lot of the die hard LBow fans.

yoshoken.9432:

vitali.1609:

Its not the weapon…..L2..

vitali.1609:

If six digit crits are an irritant than thats fine with me and rolling wont save you.

vitali.1609:

What? Same as auto attack? Ive had crits of 12 13 and 14k with the last 3 of those 10 shots from rapid fire.

So I’m going through this thread (Because I love the “debates”) and I just can’t but notice this person’s responses. Sounds like some people still think that each damage number in the Rapid Fire sequence is the individual shot’s damage instead of total damge of the channel. Would explain a lot of the die hard LBow fans.

my ranger gets 11-12k rapids quite often. i don’t think that’s bad at all when you add in pet dmg and trap dmg. of course this is PVE, where nothing dodges so you can actually land 10/10 shots instead of 3-4/10.

i even hit a 17k rapid on a veteran ogre in wvwvw but i was so surprised i didn’t get a screenshot.

vespers.1759:

my ranger gets 11-12k rapids quite often. i don’t think that’s bad at all when you add in pet dmg and trap dmg. of course this is PVE, where nothing dodges so you can actually land 10/10 shots instead of 3-4/10.

i even hit a 17k rapid on a veteran ogre in wvwvw but i was so surprised i didn’t get a screenshot.

No no, I meant the guy I was quoting thought he was getting 6digit crits on each of the last 3 shots of the Rapid Fire. He’s thinking he’s hitting people for upwards 60k damage throughout the Rapid Fire channel time. And of course, he’s basing his argument off that.

Which is why I’m laughing.

Obsidian.1328:

True, but that still only gets you around 22 seconds of stability with a 120 second cooldown. And Shared Anguish is a 90 seconds cooldown. I typically get pulled every 5 seconds or so on a wall so that won’t work with me. The best you can do is wait for Barrage to recycle, run to edge, and hope that in the 2 and half seconds it takes to cast it you don’t get targeted.

I’m sorry, but what server are you on that you’re getting yanked every 5 seconds? Are the opposing servers fielding armies of Thieves only? Are you the only one on top of the tower?

I again reiterate: what class can actually defend against these tactics better than Rangers? There isn’t a single class out there with 100% uptime stability.