Guild Wars 2

I’ll be honest, in pvp me and my friend run spirit rangers because of the buffs and helps with crowd control in team fights, I always wondered though as it seems like people seem to really, really hate spirit rangers.

Are they kinda in the same category as minionmancers, PU mesmers and hambows as in considered cheese?

Yes.

Yes. Mostly because of broken design of Shortbow.

But unlike other cheesy specs, Spirit Ranger is extremaly weak in current meta imo.

Yea…it’s by far one of the easiest specs to play since you can pretty much just cast your utility skills on cooldown and spam weapon abilities without much though. Good timing with spirit rezes and dodges with the sword are the only parts of the build that seem to involve much thought.

Dahkeus.8243:

Yea…it’s by far one of the easiest specs to play since you can pretty much just cast your utility skills on cooldown and spam weapon abilities without much though. Good timing with spirit rezes and dodges with the sword are the only parts of the build that seem to involve much thought.

The reason we were trying spirit ranger is our team seems to like the buffs and the utilities do help a bit. Do you have any suggestions for a ranger build that would better benefit a team in pvp?

So here’s the thing.

In people’s opinions, yes, Spirit Ranger is considered “cheese” because it’s very easy to play. If you value people’s opinions over your own effectiveness or preferred playstyle, then I suppose you could play something else.

However, at the moment, Spirit Ranger is still the best support build for the Ranger, and it is probably the strongest built for the Ranger in PvP at the moment.

My advice? Don’t bother with what people feel is cheesy or not, if you’re focused on being effective. Most of the complaints about Spirit Ranger are for how effective it is for so little effort. In my opinion, that’s really not a reason to stop playing it if you want to play Ranger. Why wouldn’t you play what is both highly effective and easy to play?

Neko.9021:

So here’s the thing.

In people’s opinions, yes, Spirit Ranger is considered “cheese” because it’s very easy to play. If you value people’s opinions over your own effectiveness or preferred playstyle, then I suppose you could play something else.

However, at the moment, Spirit Ranger is still the best support build for the Ranger, and it is probably the strongest built for the Ranger in PvP at the moment.

My advice? Don’t bother with what people feel is cheesy or not, if you’re focused on being effective. Most of the complaints about Spirit Ranger are for how effective it is for so little effort. In my opinion, that’s really not a reason to stop playing it if you want to play Ranger. Why wouldn’t you play what is both highly effective and easy to play?

I’ve tried standard power and condition builds and I liked them a lot too, I guess when I brought my condition ranger/power ranger in pvp though and not dueling, I didn’t feel like I was helping the team much. Team mates seemed to really benefit from the stone and sun spirit especially, and I would use wolf and drakehound for typical crowd control while staying fairly tanky. I was just curious if there was a build better suited to support team members in pvp in terms of functionality. xD

DrDivine.5378:

Neko.9021:

So here’s the thing.

In people’s opinions, yes, Spirit Ranger is considered “cheese” because it’s very easy to play. If you value people’s opinions over your own effectiveness or preferred playstyle, then I suppose you could play something else.

However, at the moment, Spirit Ranger is still the best support build for the Ranger, and it is probably the strongest built for the Ranger in PvP at the moment.

My advice? Don’t bother with what people feel is cheesy or not, if you’re focused on being effective. Most of the complaints about Spirit Ranger are for how effective it is for so little effort. In my opinion, that’s really not a reason to stop playing it if you want to play Ranger. Why wouldn’t you play what is both highly effective and easy to play?

I’ve tried standard power and condition builds and I liked them a lot too, I guess when I brought my condition ranger/power ranger in pvp though and not dueling, I didn’t feel like I was helping the team much. Team mates seemed to really benefit from the stone and sun spirit especially, and I would use wolf and drakehound for typical crowd control while staying fairly tanky. I was just curious if there was a build better suited to support team members in pvp in terms of functionality. xD

There are other decent builds that I’m sure you’ve tried. Traps and Beastmaster are OK. I reserve my judgment on Power Ranger (I haven’t been impressed by it but some players say it’s really strong). However, Spirits is still the strongest spec, and also so happens to require very minimal effort.

That’s okay though. Let everyone else be salty, and keep on pew pewing in PvP, lol. I enjoy playing my Ranger and the unique support that it offers to a team.

In my opinion.

Potential builds to be used in tPvP:

Spirit ranger (team fight) (proven to work at all tiers).
Trap ranger (team fight) (no one has proven it works at top tier).
Power ranger (team fight) (only 1 player has proven it works at top tier).
Condition variants (1 v 1) (don’t seem to be viable outside of 1 v 1s and can’t win all 1 v 1s making it not so good).

So, your options are either be a godly trap ranger (but why do that when you can be an engi), be a spirit ranger (does get outclassed by ele, engi, war, imo), or be a power ranger (but be good and don’t be a liability because you are a primary target).

In the end, spirit ranger is probably your best choice.

Honestly its not that cheesy. A lot of people say its a broken AI build, except the spirits don’t really attack… so those people are wrong.

I run it with axe/dagger and sword/torch, since shortbow is a snoozefest weapon and axe is getting buffed kinda soon. I usually run settlers over celestial, to min/max my tankiness, but celestial or rabid would probably be way better if you used traps instead of spirits due to the bleed on crit trait.

I can tell you that things like hambow godmode warrior and decap /dance turret engi are far cheesier than spirit ranger. Anyway, the meta is the meta for a reason, and theres a hiuge difference between useful and effective cheese, versus useless, selfish cheese. If that makes any sense.

It depends on what you consider as cheese, just because a build is easy to play doesn’t make it cheese.

I consider a cheese build one that relies on something that is strong (often spam-able), a 1 trick pony if you will and is not very effective out side of this. If you face an opponent that is either a hard counter or has the skill to beat you one trick and you are useless that would be cheese in my book.

an example of what i consider a cheese build is a thief build that relies on stealth and back stab to kill you. one you lean how to face them they are no long a problem as they can not adapt ie if there one trick doesn’t work they’re useless.

so on that note i don’t consider all spirits build cheese, carrion amulate with forge runes is a little cheesy because of you dependents on protection to stay alive (boon rips and aoe will kill you easy enough), but other variations are less so i also don’t consider Hambow a cheese just a build that is overall strong and easy to play.

When i run spirits (i don’t do it that often) its celestial 0/0/6/4/4 and i don’t all ways get the sprites out and can win fights without using them. when I’m solo roaming i don’t get them out until i absolutely have to so my opponent does not realize that I’m playing a spirit until well in to the fight if at all.

Shortbow is the cheesy part of spirit ranger.

Go s/d a/t or s/t a/d.

Ryan.9387:

Shortbow is the cheesy part of spirit ranger.

Go s/d a/t or s/t a/d.

I disagree, shot bow makes the build easy ill pay that.

how is SB any more cheesy then A/T-S/D.
Short bow is:
- spam 1
- use 2 and 4 on recharge
- use 3 and 5 as needed.

A/T is
- spam 1
- use skills 2 through 5 on recharge
S/D is
- spam 1 (more so as you may have auto attack off)
- use 5 on recharge (4 also if you you want to keep poison up)
- use 2 and 3 possible 4 as needed

I will concede that A/D – S/T is a more active weapon set.

I wouldn’t say it’s a cheese build, i would say it’s a skillless build though. I’m pretty sure a hampster can play a spirit ranger at maximum efficiency and that’s just because of how passive the build plays as a whole.

Personally, i’d like that to be changed so that spirits are actually active play, i love the theme and idea of spirits but can’t stand to actually play it because of how awfully it was executed. Spirits in GW1, although still passive, changed up the area they effected so much that they were interesting, in GW2 they’re just some random proc chance that doesn’t change how you play at all.

Just to put into perspective, PvP has been in the “cheese meta” since the april 15th patch and arguably before then.

Ranger is considered underpowered in the current meta.

Therefore, while the build might genuinely be a cheese build (I’d also argue it’s mostly the shortbows fault), the cheese isn’t as strong as other meta cheese (soldiers/celestial warriors/warriors abusing cleansing ire bug that causes it to cleans a metric kitten ton more than what the description implicates with Longbow, celestial eles/engis).

And that’s just the PvP meta cheese builds. Let’s not get started on trait specific cheese that is strong elsewhere (Shadow’s Rejuvenation thieves, PU and/or clone death mesmers, etc, etc, etc).

In general for PvP though, the Celestial buff was one of the worst things that’s ever happened to the metagame, and causes a direct contradiction with the balance philosophy of ANet claiming “we don’t want builds that can perform like swiss army knifes and compete at multiple various roles without having some sort of weakness.”

Keep in mind: On a generic team comp, which is usually Guardian/Warrior/Ele/Thief/Engi or Necro, Rangers have to compete for 3 positions, Ele, which bring so much damage and support I’d personally argue there is no competition, Thief, which means you’re glass, and there’s only one person ballsy and skilled enough for that currently since it’s arguably an underpowered spec, or Engi/Necro, meaning the team is sacrificing AoE condi spike/area denial to bring a ranger, so you better have SOMETHING to make up for the hit to the offensive power of the team.

Personally, if I was making a “balanced” comp for tPvP right now, even though I main ranger, I probably wouldn’t pick up one for my primary team comp when the team could run Bunker Guard/Soldier Warror/Celestial Ele/Celestial or Rabid Engi/S/D thief and have all of the roles covered that a condi/spirit ranger can provide.

Rangers aren’t alone right now though, Mesmers have a very hard time in PvP right now too, and I personally think that necros see heavy competition with engis, and that engis come out slightly above necros due to overall mobility and burning procs.

Still, it’s one of the first times since the game launched that rangers haven’t been on the meta team comp, so I guess there is something to be said about that.

My two cents… yes it’s cheese. When you run any form of heavy AI based build you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake; while you are playing very passive.

Pu mesmers, for instance, will just stealth and let their ai do the majority of the work. MM necros/ turret engi’s just tank while you get widdled down.. Spirit rangers can literally auto attack and have some degree of success which is why they are generally the first one’s to have the cheese finger pointed at them.

Same goes for s/d thieves who just spam evades, even when it’s not necessary. They have so many at their disposal it’s hard to punish them for their mistakes. I love when this type of thief calls out someone for double dodging. There are other examples for other classes as well.

What makes the “non-cheese” so furious is that many of the people running these builds actually believe they are “out-playing” their opponents.

It is ironic in a game that was so heavily marketed on skill/ reaction has become watered down to the point where some specs you don’t really have to do much at all.

I’m still frustrated that I only have control over one of my pet’t abilities, it makes no sense to me. Having active abilities gives the game more dynamic, when you take away that…

/shrug

Dolt.2731:

My two cents… yes it’s cheese. When you run any form of heavy AI based build you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake; while you are playing very passive.

Pu mesmers, for instance, will just stealth and let their ai do the majority of the work. MM necros/ turret engi’s just tank while you get widdled down.. Spirit rangers can literally auto attack and have some degree of success which is why they are generally the first one’s to have the cheese finger pointed at them.

Same goes for s/d thieves who just spam evades, even when it’s not necessary. They have so many at their disposal it’s hard to punish them for their mistakes. I love when this type of thief calls out someone for double dodging. There are other examples for other classes as well.

What makes the “non-cheese” so furious is that many of the people running these builds actually believe they are “out-playing” their opponents.

It is ironic in a game that was so heavily marketed on skill/ reaction has become watered down to the point where some specs you don’t really have to do much at all.

I’m still frustrated that I only have control over one of my pet’t abilities, it makes no sense to me. Having active abilities gives the game more dynamic, when you take away that…

/shrug

It irks me that you consider spirits to be an AI build. Sure they move around, and have health, and absorb AoE and make tab targetting difficult, but in no way do the spirits “do the majority of the work”, they don’t even attack for gods sake!

I do agree with you about the shortbow, and thats why I run axe dagger and sword torch instead. Although this in theory has more cheese potential with celestial and strength or hoelbrak runes when the axe becomes a psuedo mightstacking tool, in which you’d spam axe skills and use condition bomb skills on cooldown with 9-12 might up most of the time.

But still, don’t call spirits an AI build when the spirits just follow you and buff you and your friends. Its 100% different from what an MM necro or a phantasm memser does.

Ai or not the point remains, it’s very passive game-play in my, perhaps not your, opinion. In other words… cheese, which the op was asking about.

Heh, I feel this thread will de-rail over the boundaries of passive/ cheese gameplay.

Maybe we should just promote Ranger and Mesmer to Cheese Professions…

Sarision.6347:

Maybe we should just promote Ranger and Mesmer to Cheese Professions…

Every class has at least one cheese build though.

Any good build is a cheese build. Helesek or whatever his name is that is on team Myst had a video half a year ago about how GW is a very spammy game.

Basically it’s not feasible to run 100% complete glass cannon and rely entirely on skill when you’re in the middle of a team fight because all sorts of random attacks are coming in, many untelegraphed, blah blah blah. Good players have to mitigate this risk by running “cheese” builds like your typical tanky heal sig warrior and then spamming dodges via vigor. Bad players will rely on their superior skill and get downed.

The only time skill-based builds have the opportunity to come in to play is mostly in 1v1s or 1v2s.

There is a slight caveat that you can extremely easily run a berserker build in the front line of a zerg just because of weird game mechanics. That’s half way between skill and cheese. Or just experience with the game, like a farmer’s gambit in single player civilization game.

jcbroe.4329:

Sarision.6347:

Maybe we should just promote Ranger and Mesmer to Cheese Professions…

Every class has at least one cheese build though.

Yeah but according to the PvP community, AI = Cheese. And since Ranger and Mesmer have to play the pet and clones respectively, every build is literally cheese build.

Sarision.6347:

jcbroe.4329:

Sarision.6347:

Maybe we should just promote Ranger and Mesmer to Cheese Professions…

Every class has at least one cheese build though.

Yeah but according to the noobs in PvP community, AI = Cheese. And since Ranger and Mesmer have to play the pet and clones respectively, every build is literally cheese build.

Fixed that for ya.

There is no cheese. There is only a playstyle you think is easier than the one you like.

If you think other people’s “easier” builds are cheese, then you should start playing with suboptimal runes and amulets…just to be “non-cheese” to the max.

Eventually you can boast that you play naked, and everyone who uses a powerful rune is “cheese”.

Think about it.

Silentshoes.1805:

There is no cheese. There is only a playstyle you think is easier than the one you like.

If you think other people’s “easier” builds are cheese, then you should start playing with suboptimal runes and amulets…just to be “non-cheese” to the max.

Eventually you can boast that you play naked, and everyone who uses a powerful rune is “cheese”.

Think about it.

Agreed. I will use the best build for my playstyle 9/10 times. Sometimes you gotta run something funky out of boredom. I am not concerned with what people consider easy or cheesy. I concern myself with trying to win the match!

Silentshoes.1805:

There is no cheese. There is only a playstyle you think is easier than the one you like.

If you think other people’s “easier” builds are cheese, then you should start playing with suboptimal runes and amulets…just to be “non-cheese” to the max.

Eventually you can boast that you play naked, and everyone who uses a powerful rune is “cheese”.

Think about it.

i like this +1

Anything the Ranger can do to make them formidable in a combat situation, coming from a warrior, is welcomed.

I enjoy being surprised by a Ranger that can put up a hard fight.

Run zerk power build if you want to learn how to dodge intelligently.

Passive play means cheese to some degree to most people, it doesn’t matter whether it comes from AI, ridiculous passive buffs, constant heals in stealth, ridiculous passive defense, or even condi damage.

That said the meta is nothing but a big block of muenster right now so have at.

I main a zerk power ranger and their actual power lies in fast effective rotation to ninja fights and caps in your favor not literally ‘team fight with the whole team on a cap only’.

Spirit is going to be better support for that. Yes they are cheesy. Everything winning is cheesy to some degree. I agree with other posters here that it is relatively weak on the ‘cheese scale’. You know this because rangers, necros and engies are still primary targets on the hit list due to a low amount of defenses like stability, blocks, stealths and condi and projectile immunities to stop combo chains.

D/D Ele can do everything in this game by contrast including smashing a spirit ranger’s effectiveness (or turret engi or MM necro) in one-two hits and from a perspective of player skill it is not cheesy in my opinion but a class should not have an unlimited skill ceiling either.

Even hambow can cleave down spirit ranger pretty fast, so there you go.

Narkodx.1472:

Silentshoes.1805:

There is no cheese. There is only a playstyle you think is easier than the one you like.

If you think other people’s “easier” builds are cheese, then you should start playing with suboptimal runes and amulets…just to be “non-cheese” to the max.

Eventually you can boast that you play naked, and everyone who uses a powerful rune is “cheese”.

Think about it.

Agreed. I will use the best build for my playstyle 9/10 times. Sometimes you gotta run something funky out of boredom. I am not concerned with what people consider easy or cheesy. I concern myself with trying to win the match!

Agreed. Play to win. Analyze the game mechanics and use them to your advantage to squash your opponents.

TheLargeUnit.2793:

Run zerk power build if you want to learn how to dodge intelligently.

Or die outta stupidity…