This thread is not intended to show any kind of complaint but rather a way to consolidate a few peoples concerns about Condi removal. EB and SotF are Grandmaster traits in the same line. It’s a nerf to our condi removal and makes Poison Master an obsolete trait.
I’m hoping we can get some kind of confirmation on whether this is being looked at or not.
(edited by ItIsFinished.9462)
I’m going to take a wild guess and say that Anet might have looked at this but probably will not address it until the Druid specialization is revealed. At that point, expect forum moderators such as Rising Dusk to open a Feedback thread, and by a deadline, report the community’s concern to the developers and specialization teams.
I’m going to take a wild guess and say that Anet might have looked at this but probably will not address it until the Druid specialization is revealed. At that point, expect forum moderators such as Rising Dusk to open a Feedback thread, and by a deadline, report the community’s concern to the developers and specialization teams.
You are probably right but let’s try to keep this thread near the top for the off chance that someone from Anet get’s lost and accidentally stumbles into the ranger forums.
It would be nice if someone would verify they are aware of the issue and looking into it… It is troubling as it really hinders our build diversity.
Im assuming they did it on purpose. So as to prevent some builds from becoming nearly immune to condis. Such as the condi survival ranger build that exists in wvw atm.
Im assuming they did it on purpose. So as to prevent some builds from becoming nearly immune to condis. Such as the condi survival ranger build that exists in wvw atm.
There is a better solution though. For starters, if they insist on piling all the condi removal in a single line, the 3rd grandmaster would ideally be based around condi removal (remove a condi every time you apply poison, 15 sec CD added on to poison master.)
Another option would be to offer 3 or 4 lesser condi removals scattered throughout the trees, while removing the 2 grandmaster traits.
Those are off the top of my head and not meant as well thought out suggestions. But they’re better thought out than this weird solution we were initially presented with. I really hope our info is out of date and they’ve already changed it.
Im assuming they did it on purpose. So as to prevent some builds from becoming nearly immune to condis. Such as the condi survival ranger build that exists in wvw atm.
I see no problem with that at all. If you choose to use 2/3 of your GM traits to combat one mechanic, that should be OK. Since by doing that, you are sacrificing much damage and utility. Not to mention, you need half a bar of survival skills to make it worthwhile as well. Kinda makes it niche and it should be available to a tanky style ranger.
Either way, we need the traits in different lines so we can make a LOT more viable builds. If you want to take Poison Master, it means you pretty much HAVE to also take HS and SoR as well to handle condis. If EB was in NM (swapped with IB) we would be in a much better place, imo.
Im assuming they did it on purpose. So as to prevent some builds from becoming nearly immune to condis. Such as the condi survival ranger build that exists in wvw atm.
I see no problem with that at all. If you choose to use 2/3 of your GM traits to combat one mechanic, that should be OK. Since by doing that, you are sacrificing much damage and utility. Not to mention, you need half a bar of survival skills to make it worthwhile as well. Kinda makes it niche and it should be available to a tanky style ranger.
Either way, we need the traits in different lines so we can make a LOT more viable builds. If you want to take Poison Master, it means you pretty much HAVE to also take HS and SoR as well to handle condis. If EB was in NM (swapped with IB) we would be in a much better place, imo.
The issue was that condi builds DIDN’T sacrifice that much utility or damage. Infact one of the biggest issues was that they had just about everything. Its why hte settler ranger is generally looked at with disdain.
Now someone wanting to make a condi resistant build will have to chose how. Theyl also have to chsoe whether they want resistance to condies through cleanses or through other means. (A longbow ranger typcially doesn’t need much cleanse for example. Typically if he needed to cleanse hes already kittened up)
Theres also an easier method to get rid of the more critical conditions that actually prevent you from kiting and recovering. The nature magic evasive purity trait. Which effectively gives reliable on demand condi cleanse against key threats.
Its not like having condi cleanse grandmastes being in the same spot pidgeon holes us into those slots. Infact I have never needed run run either survival of the fittest OR empathic bond in any of hte gvgs or TPvP matches ive been in up to this point. largely because my build simply doesnt encounter that issue reliably enough to make it worth the sacrifice.
So its not as if there mandatory traits being locked behind eachother. Instead there traits that not everyone will need. And those that DO need it will have to chose HOW they want there condi cleanse to work. Based on what utilites they run. Meaning again. That there not really sacrificing utilities. There instead picking a cleanse method that fits the utility the DO need.
—Snip—
Its not like having condi cleanse grandmastes being in the same spot pidgeon holes us into those slots. Infact I have never needed run run either survival of the fittest OR empathic bond in any of hte gvgs or TPvP matches ive been in up to this point. largely because my build simply doesnt encounter that issue reliably enough to make it worth the sacrifice.So its not as if there mandatory traits being locked behind eachother. Instead there traits that not everyone will need. And those that DO need it will have to chose HOW they want there condi cleanse to work. —Snip--
I strongly disagree. It does pigeon hole us into nature magic, and makes Poison Master a wasted GM, as you could never use it. You find that you don’t need either condition removal GM in TPvP and GVGs? The current meta is Celestial and it is full of knockdowns, immobolize, poison, fire, chill, and more fire. If you don’t clear those on demand you get insta-gibbed. Are you telling me the meta Warrior, Elementalist, and Engi builds don’t gank you with conditions? The only condition where you don’t need condition removal is when you are standing on a cliff with longbow and no one decides to come after you. In that scenario you don’t need armor, either.
—Snip—
Its not like having condi cleanse grandmastes being in the same spot pidgeon holes us into those slots. Infact I have never needed run run either survival of the fittest OR empathic bond in any of hte gvgs or TPvP matches ive been in up to this point. largely because my build simply doesnt encounter that issue reliably enough to make it worth the sacrifice.So its not as if there mandatory traits being locked behind eachother. Instead there traits that not everyone will need. And those that DO need it will have to chose HOW they want there condi cleanse to work. —Snip--
I strongly disagree. It does pigeon hole us into nature magic, and makes Poison Master a wasted GM, as you could never use it. You find that you don’t need either condition removal GM in TPvP and GVGs? The current meta is Celestial and it is full of knockdowns, immobolize, poison, fire, chill, and more fire. If you don’t clear those on demand you get insta-gibbed. Are you telling me the meta Warrior, Elementalist, and Engi builds don’t gank you with conditions? The only condition where you don’t need condition removal is when you are standing on a cliff with longbow and no one decides to come after you. In that scenario you don’t need armor, either.
Yes I am saying they don’t. Largely because the only truly dangerous condis applications are well telegraphed. I can handle MOST builds in 1v1s using only the current form of evasive purity. And I use both melee and ranged well enough that I actually ended up starting to use warrior runes in order to swap between them faster.
All in all the only build that truly terrifies me is the S/D thief. Largely because theres no amount of skilled play i can use to beat that build if its in the hands of a competent thief.
Its a matter of playstyle. Im not usually throwing myself against 2-3 people expecting to get layers of conditions on me. Im generally kiting one or two (at most) people whenever possible.
Like I said before though. Generally if your in a situation where you need that kind of condi clear your either a fully dedicated build in that situation or you kittened up and are probably going to die anyway. Rather than prepare for something that was going to kill me anyway I focused on other paths and ended up learning how to avoid those situations almost entirely. As such. Not every build or playstyle requires having such a MASSIVE amount of condi clear.
Currently the only one I can think of that actually used BOTH. Is in fact the settlers condi ranger. Which is widely considered an aids build. And I think I speak for several roamers when I say im perfectly fine with THAT particular cheese dieing.
(But of course I can’t claim to speak for everyone nore will I attempt to. This is after all built on a basis of my own experience and opinion and should be regarded as such)
(edited by Shadelang.3012)
I think it’s also worth noting that condis stack now. In the past you could clear 10 stacks of bleeding with a random SoR proc, and then just eat the poison and burning. Now in that same scenario you would remove the 10 stacks of bleeding and eat 10 stacks of poison and 10 stacks of burning. Condi removal seems to have gotten a lot more important from what we’ve seen.
I think it’s also worth noting that condis stack now. In the past you could clear 10 stacks of bleeding with a random SoR proc, and then just eat the poison and burning. Now in that same scenario you would remove the 10 stacks of bleeding and eat 10 stacks of poison and 10 stacks of burning. Condi removal seems to have gotten a lot more important from what we’ve seen.
On that note I can definitely agree with. Though its difficult to see what builds can actually benefit from that. From what i can see most builds get at most two of those 3 in enough amounts to be dangerous. Or there like the engineer which has fewer stacks but longer applications. I think well have to wait and see how the spread of conditions will actually be. (I dont think most builds will be able to get high stacks of both burning and poison for example. even the guardians burns are mostly short duration. And there pretty much the kings at rapid application of that condition.
EDIT: On another note. If you follow that line of though tit looks like incendiary powder is being relatively nerfed if it remains in its current form. One stack of the new burn isn’t as dangerous as one stack of the current burn. So in all itl be a supplemental weapon instead of a primary killing tool like it is now.
I think it’s also worth noting that condis stack now. In the past you could clear 10 stacks of bleeding with a random SoR proc, and then just eat the poison and burning. Now in that same scenario you would remove the 10 stacks of bleeding and eat 10 stacks of poison and 10 stacks of burning. Condi removal seems to have gotten a lot more important from what we’ve seen.
On that note I can definitely agree with. Though its difficult to see what builds can actually benefit from that. From what i can see most builds get at most two of those 3 in enough amounts to be dangerous. Or there like the engineer which has fewer stacks but longer applications. I think well have to wait and see how the spread of conditions will actually be. (I dont think most builds will be able to get high stacks of both burning and poison for example. even the guardians burns are mostly short duration. And there pretty much the kings at rapid application of that condition.
EDIT: On another note. If you follow that line of though tit looks like incendiary powder is being relatively nerfed if it remains in its current form. One stack of the new burn isn’t as dangerous as one stack of the current burn. So in all itl be a supplemental weapon instead of a primary killing tool like it is now.
The changes to guardian are giving them 100% burning uptime.
I’m pretty sure the burning and poison stacks cap out at 3.
The burning has to be at least 3 for one of the guard traits, but during the preview, the DH stacked 6 burns for 4500dps. Try not having masses of condi cleanse and facing that.
@ Shadelang, how can you “definitely agree with” the fact that condi cleanse got a lot more important yet also say that it is fine that we now will only have one choice of GM condi cleanse?
The point is that they are both in the same line, making WS mandatory. Settler condi builds are super boring anyway, too slow to do anything and are rarely played anyway.
And honestly, who can’t handle most 1v1s anywhere? You need condi cleanses for when its more than 1v1 and have to survive to fulfil your role.
If you can compete in PvP without condi traits, could we please see the build you use for TPvP and GvG? Because I am dying to see it. I just cannot see it working reliably.
You obviously do not roam much, though, because without condi clear, you are dead nigh-instantly, whereas with SoTF and/or EB you can skirmish and fight multiple condi players, even on a glass build and whittle them down. To do that though, you have to give up your damage GMs, which is fine.
I did also like to take Poison Master with SoTF and several builds with it, but now, there is no way to use it and not be vulnerable to condis.
I don’t get why anyone would accept this change as a good one. Makes no sense whatsoever, wanting less options because of one or two rarely used builds.
Obviously you don’t need that much cleans neither in TPvP nor GVG, in the first one you’ll just kit or leave the fight and in the second one decicated classes will do the job for you + direct damage is far superior to conditions in group fight.
Problem goes when roaming in WvW while playing a ranger where you definitely need cleans because half of the solo roamers run conditions (it’s probably more reassuring).
Here you simply don’t find settler rangers cuz it’s not effective that much, you can’t kill another guy fast enough before other ones come. But you can find another classes who are closed to be immuned to conditions aswell and still will be after HOT. If a “settler” ranger is a cheese who have to die, i don’t know how we can call a dire perplexity thief. And don’t forget that some builds will loose between 300 and 550 vitality.
Again, there is no decent reasons to put 2 of our only 3 clean traits int the same grandmaster slot.
(edited by borya.2964)
@Puck:
Why do you think the poison and burning stacks are going to cap out at 3?
@Shadelang The most dangerous conditions are stun, immobilize, and knockdown. 1v1 battles should be manageable for most Rangers. The fights that we are talking about are 2v2 to 5v5, and sometimes 1v2, 2v3, or 3v4. I would love to see this TPVP build that is effective in those scenarios without condition removal.
@borya: direct damage is in no way superior to conditions in group fights. Look at shout bow, d/d elementalist, medi-guard. Look at Shatter Mesmer and tell me how he is not going to 100-0 you if you can’t break his immobilize. Same goes for thief.
Edit: look at meta engi as well. Not high damage.
(edited by Archon.6480)
Stun and Knockdown are not conditions.
Stun and Knockdown are not conditions.
Right, strictly speaking those are control effects, which I always consider a nasty subset of conditions. I should have just said immobilize. Regardless, all three need to be cleared fast. Builds that can’t clear or mitigate those are going to have problems.
I mostly agree. An alternative would be for them to have methods of invuln/block that are sufficient. Invulns that can be cast while stunned/dazed/KD’d (ex: Mesmer Distortion) are great for this. Blocks are mainly to counter a lack of condition removal for immobilize as I’m unaware of a block that can be used while dazed/stunned/KD’d.
I’m a big fan of such blocks/invulns if their cooldown isn’t drastically longer than the cleanse / stunbreak since they can be far more versatile (ex: cleanse is less useful if no conditions … block is always useful as you will be attacked :-p)
@Puck:
Why do you think the poison and burning stacks are going to cap out at 3?
I could have sworn they said that in one of the streams but maybe I’m wrong or they changed it since then.
If you find it, please share :-)
I’d be quite interested, and I’m sure others would be as well.
I only recall them constantly jokingly “playing dumb” about conditions stacking … things like “you know, that’d be great in a world where poison/burning stacked … if such a world existed, of course”
I think all that can be said has been said, so it would just be nice to know if this is intended, or not. I suppose we could just accept we are loosing poison master and will have to trait 6 into NM for most builds… That still gives us a few good builds.
Archon, you mention having to trait 6 into NM. Are you not familiar with how the new Specialization system is going to work?
With the new system:
Seeing it makes it easier to understand:
@Shadelang The most dangerous conditions are stun, immobilize, and knockdown. 1v1 battles should be manageable for most Rangers. The fights that we are talking about are 2v2 to 5v5, and sometimes 1v2, 2v3, or 3v4. I would love to see this TPVP build that is effective in those scenarios without condition removal.
@borya: direct damage is in no way superior to conditions in group fights. Look at shout bow, d/d elementalist, medi-guard. Look at Shatter Mesmer and tell me how he is not going to 100-0 you if you can’t break his immobilize. Same goes for thief.
Edit: look at meta engi as well. Not high damage.
First gonna apologize for taking so long to respond. Had IRL sutff keeping me busy.
I understand that stun immobilize and knockdown are the biggest threats in a group fighting environment as a ranger. the thing is though that only one of those is effected by condi removal. Immobilize. Which is very easily avoided in “most” circumstances. (most in game immobilizes are HEAVILY telegraphed.) If im in a fight im far more worried about chill and cripple. As those pretty much need to be on my for the damaging conditions to be applied on me in significant numbers to be dangerous. One of which will be covered by evasive purity post trait change. The other of which is significantly rarer and also heavily telegraphed at this time.
The purpose of my posts was the show that we aren’t truly being crippled by these two grandmasters inhabiting the same slot. It isn’t an end of the world scenario. As there are other options. Heck post change trooper runes will be an option for grp support and condi removal. As there will then be two shouts (heal as one and guard) on obscenely low cooldowns. All for a single trait. That combined with evasive purity in nature magic would give quite a high amount of condi removal options. More than most ranger builds that currently exist actually need. Also with the change to conditions itl be far less profitable to actually burn a cleanse on burning or poison. As they won’t be stacking duration but intensity. So where before you may have cleansed off 7 seconds of burning. Here you cleansed off 2 seconds of 5 stacks. (same overall damage. But attempting to cleanse off that 2 seconds most likely your going to take far more of the damage ANYWAY. I feel youd be better off taking something that allowed you to avoid those applications in the first place)
You will benefit MORE by removing the burning post changes imo. If you look at the DH for example, in the preview (subject to change, these numbers are not final!) they were stacking burning and it was ticking 4000+dps so one stack is manageable and not worth cleansing, once the stacks start building up though, you need to cleanse, or you are dead in 5 seconds.
Aye, if the numbers don’t change … burning could be an enormous threat as 4,000 a second that ignores toughness … ouch.
That being said, ArenaNet keeps reminding us that numbers are still be tweaked … so that burning damage could change.
My prediction for burning/bleeding since both “just do damage is” … applications of bleeds will generally have a longer duration but do less damage per tick than burning while applications of burning will generally have a shorter duration but do more damage per tick than bleeding.
For example, I think we’ll probalby end up with something like:
10s of bleeding that does X damage per tick = 10X damage total.
5s of burning that does 2X damage per tick = 10X damage total.
We’ll see though … there are times ArenaNet does things and I’m a little baffled … but they have a better idea what direction they are going than any of us do … I think the upcoming Specialization Systems that we didn’t know anything about until recently is pretty good proof of that :-p
Updated: Added two more links regarding the issue.
All I’m hoping is that druid has some good options for cleansing. That could be the reason, otherwise you could take all three trait lines and be immune to conditions.
Likewise. Same for access to Resistance. Probably just me, but Resistance + Druid seems fitting. Though, I am not familiar with how Anet envisions Druids.
All I’m hoping is that druid has some good options for cleansing. That could be the reason, otherwise you could take all three trait lines and be immune to conditions.
Have you ever fought a shoutbow as any condi build from any profession? They can literally /sleep on you.
All I’m hoping is that druid has some good options for cleansing. That could be the reason, otherwise you could take all three trait lines and be immune to conditions.
Have you ever fought a shoutbow as any condi build from any profession? They can literally /sleep on you.
Well, they’d still need to use actual skills whereas we would clear 4/10s passively, plus WK/survival, plus anything druid brings to the table. If it is not the case, that druid brings more condi interaction, then there is no reason to have both EB/WK in the same line.
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